The Fabian Society and fascism

[ed miliband]

I was reading through 'A History of British Fascism' (or something along those lines) yesterday and it mentioned that GB Shaw - along with Nietzsche and Wagner - was fundamental in shaping Oswald Mosley's understanding of the individual. Mosley's Blackshirts would all be trained to achieve this status of 'Superman' or whatever. Mosley was a Fabian until 1932, the year that the British Union of Fascists was established, and it would be stupid to imagine that he went to be a thorough Fabian and awoke an ardent fascist. Further, Mosley was good friends with GB Shaw long after the B.U.F. was founded; this all makes perfect sense when one considers Shaw's admiration for Hitler and Mussolini.

Important Fabians like Shaw are now notorious within right-libertarian circles for their support of eugenics; they also supported imperialism as a way of bringing "backward" peoples into modernity, and Shaw in particular believed that a clear elite existed within each and every society who should rule over those not as intelligent or able. Coupled with their fear of proletarian revolution, their belief in class-collaborationism, and their wish to establish a "Third Way" between capitalism and communism, are there not a number of very clear similarities between Fabianism and fascism? Granted the racial element is largely missing, but that book on fascism mentioned that Mosley was more concerned (at least initially) with British cultural superiority than racial superiority, and a belief in cultural superiority is clear within the Fabian Society.

[Rusty Shackleford]

the right's criticism of fabianism is correct. they dabbled in eugenics. also, they are gradualists and true elitists. i mean shit, they are a part of the london school of economics.

[Red Commissar]

the right's criticism of fabianism is correct. they dabbled in eugenics. also, they are gradualists and true elitists. i mean shit, they are a part of the london school of economics.

Yeah, but then they try to associate that with Socialism in general. I mean I think we recall here in the states they were making the "grand connection" between the Democratic Party, Socialism, Stalin and Hitler by way of groups like the Fabian Society.

[ed miliband]

the right's criticism of fabianism is correct. they dabbled in eugenics. also, they are gradualists and true elitists. i mean shit, they are a part of the london school of economics.

LSE was established by the Fabians; they wanted it to become a place for future bureaucrats to learn how to make the world a better place.

[Rusty Shackleford]

theres no stopping them trying to compare socialism with nazism. i they had the word socialism in their name so we cant do much about it.

[Red Commissar]

theres no stopping them trying to compare socialism with nazism. i they had the word socialism in their name so we cant do much about it.

Doesn't this seem like a more recent phenomenon in regards to the Fabian Society though? Lot of these types have been bringing attention to groups that formerly had very, very limited recognition, many of them from the past or whose aim is more local or in another country all together. I mean in the past few years these types have been bombarded with groups they may've never heard of. Either stuff from foreign countries (Fabian Society), some backer of "progressive" groups (George Soros, Tides Foundation, etc), insidious sounding material (Coming Insurrection), or bring old skeletons out of the closet from the 60s and 70s (Prairie Fire).

Honestly if the Fabian Society should be more seen as a potential problem coming out of bureaucracy, elitism, and technocracy, not so much socialism. But since it considered itself one it's going to bring a lot of problems to fight with. Honestly the main goal just seems for them to make the Democratic Party out to be some radical socialist outfit.

[Rusty Shackleford]

the conservative's mind is recoiling in horror at the instability of the world. they were in shock.

now, they are panicking.

[Dimentio]

The same beliefs were prominent within Swedish social democracy. Gunnar and Alva Myrdal were responsible for the Swedish eugenics programme which sterilised about 70 000 Swedish citizens, belonging either to ethnic minorities or being "too low-brow". Prime Minister Per Albin Hansson often spoke about the greatness and virility of the "Nordic Race".

Sadly, social engineering has a history within socialism as a way to cure social ills. I think it is a consequence of largely upper class people joining and becoming the leaders of democratic socialist parties, starting to view the people as a population of mice.

That is why I think that libertarian socialism is the only real kind of socialism.

People who want to tell other people how to live their lives are authoritarians, and not socialists (if we don't want to count for example Ramses II or Atahualpa as socialists).


I was reading through 'A History of British Fascism' (or something along those lines) yesterday and it mentioned that GB Shaw - along with Nietzsche and Wagner - was fundamental in shaping Oswald Mosley's understanding of the individual. Mosley's Blackshirts would all be trained to achieve this status of 'Superman' or whatever. Mosley was a Fabian until 1932, the year that the British Union of Fascists was established, and it would be stupid to imagine that he went to be a thorough Fabian and awoke an ardent fascist. Further, Mosley was good friends with GB Shaw long after the B.U.F. was founded; this all makes perfect sense when one considers Shaw's admiration for Hitler and Mussolini.

Important Fabians like Shaw are now notorious within right-libertarian circles for their support of eugenics; they also supported imperialism as a way of bringing "backward" peoples into modernity, and Shaw in particular believed that a clear elite existed within each and every society who should rule over those not as intelligent or able. Coupled with their fear of proletarian revolution, their belief in class-collaborationism, and their wish to establish a "Third Way" between capitalism and communism, are there not a number of very clear similarities between Fabianism and fascism? Granted the racial element is largely missing, but that book on fascism mentioned that Mosley was more concerned (at least initially) with British cultural superiority than racial superiority, and a belief in cultural superiority is clear within the Fabian Society.

[Ocean Seal]

I was reading through 'A History of British Fascism' (or something along those lines) yesterday and it mentioned that GB Shaw - along with Nietzsche and Wagner - was fundamental in shaping Oswald Mosley's understanding of the individual. Mosley's Blackshirts would all be trained to achieve this status of 'Superman' or whatever. Mosley was a Fabian until 1932, the year that the British Union of Fascists was established, and it would be stupid to imagine that he went to be a thorough Fabian and awoke an ardent fascist. Further, Mosley was good friends with GB Shaw long after the B.U.F. was founded; this all makes perfect sense when one considers Shaw's admiration for Hitler and Mussolini.

Important Fabians like Shaw are now notorious within right-libertarian circles for their support of eugenics; they also supported imperialism as a way of bringing "backward" peoples into modernity, and Shaw in particular believed that a clear elite existed within each and every society who should rule over those not as intelligent or able. Coupled with their fear of proletarian revolution, their belief in class-collaborationism, and their wish to establish a "Third Way" between capitalism and communism, are there not a number of very clear similarities between Fabianism and fascism? Granted the racial element is largely missing, but that book on fascism mentioned that Mosley was more concerned (at least initially) with British cultural superiority than racial superiority, and a belief in cultural superiority is clear within the Fabian Society.
I don't suggest likening the two. Liberals in the United States also have a sense of intellectual superiority, and they also advocate the Third way of humane capitalism, but I wouldn't try to connect them to fascism. I believe that someone said earlier that likening things is a slippery slope, and it is, because when the term fascist means nothing, its almost as if you can't apply a label to those who were actually fascists: Hitler/Mussolini/Pinochet/Suharto. Also I don't think that Shaw was very much a fan of fascism, although he was a rabid elitist. Still there is a difference between the two.
Obama is an elitist, but that doesn't mean that he is a fascist. Because the definition of fascism is so cloudy, you can call anyone a fascist and get away with it, which is why the Tea party can call Obama a fascist and no one calls them out on it. The Fabians should be criticized as bourgeois reformists with elitist tendencies, but not as fascists.

[ed miliband]

I don't suggest likening the two. Liberals in the United States also have a sense of intellectual superiority, and they also advocate the Third way of humane capitalism, but I wouldn't try to connect them to fascism. I believe that someone said earlier that likening things is a slippery slope, and it is, because when the term fascist means nothing, its almost as if you can't apply a label to those who were actually fascists: Hitler/Mussolini/Pinochet/Suharto. Also I don't think that Shaw was very much a fan of fascism, although he was a rabid elitist. Still there is a difference between the two.
Obama is an elitist, but that doesn't mean that he is a fascist. Because the definition of fascism is so cloudy, you can call anyone a fascist and get away with it, which is why the Tea party can call Obama a fascist and no one calls them out on it. The Fabians should be criticized as bourgeois reformists with elitist tendencies, but not as fascists.

Yeah but the fact that British fascism essentially emerged from Fabianism cannot be ignored, nor can Shaw's continued friendship with Mosley and his support for Hitler/Mussolini.

I agree it'd be silly to point at Obama and say he is a fascist because he is an elitist, but I think there are very stark similarities between Fabianism and fascism, and clear links existed between the movements in the 30s.

[Dimentio]

Fascism emerged out of some of the thoughts which circulated within progressive culture in the early 20th century, namely collectivism, preferences for "action", social engineering, state worship and similar.

National Socialism had right-wing sources instead.

So Fascism and National Socialism have differing roots, but fulfilled similar roles in their different societies. Therefore, I resent the ideas that Mussolini simply was a smaller and sillier Hitler.

Mussolini had more in common with guys like Nasser, Assad, Saddam and Peron, than with Hitler.

Hitler's regime was a unique phenomenon, and it's best heritage is that no similar regime would emerge anywhere else in history because it is so utterly discredited.

[Red Commissar]

Yeah but the fact that British fascism essentially emerged from Fabianism cannot be ignored, nor can Shaw's continued friendship with Mosley and his support for Hitler/Mussolini..

I don't know, someone could also make the same argument about Mussolini emerging from the PSI and claim that socialist thought is responsible for fascism. I just don't think this is a good path to pursuit because it will seem to help rabid anti-socialist types more than being able to cast off the problems Fabianism caused.

[Apoi_Viitor]

I don't know, someone could also make the same argument about Mussolini emerging from the PSI and claim that socialist thought is responsible for fascism. I just don't think this is a good path to pursuit because it will seem to help rabid anti-socialist types more than being able to cast off the problems Fabianism caused.

So we should just ignore it?

[Red Commissar]

So we should just ignore it?

No- what I'm saying is we should not jump in on the bandwagon the right is pitching trying. The Fabian Society had elitist and crappy values, but I don't see how writing it off as "fascist" will accomplish anything.

Socialist groups for a long time have criticized the Fabian Society for its faults, and that's what we need- our own criticisms to be developed, not ones that are riding off or pandering to right-wing sentiment.

Fabianism already has plenty of issues we criticize for, that ties in closely to the politics of reformists. Their fetish with administrative bodies (socialism from above, I suppose), Western cultural supremacy, and class collaboration is not just limited to Fabians themselves.

IMO calling it "Fascist" just seems like an easy way out, the same way some people might refer to "Stalinism" as "Red Fascism". As much as my views are, I won't apply such terms to "Stalinism" because honestly it serves right-wing propaganda more than improve the image of the left, which is what I assume many of these people were trying to do by disassociating themselves with certain groups or people.

And on another point, George Bernard Shaw, while having some stupid political views of his own, is first and foremost a playwright. He doesn't have any "unique" political contributions, he hasn't spawned an ideology like Ayn Rand has. I think trying to tie him to being a major influence on Mosley would be giving him too much credit.

[Die Neue Zeit]

The Fabians can be called Social-Corporatists, though.

[Nolan]

The Fabians are elitist reformist cappies who advocate all sorts of reactionary crap and have been influential in bourgeois politics for a long time. Even people like Juan Manuel Santos are indirectly spawned from them. Why we're talking about them in relation to revolutionary Marxism is beyond me, as if they were a fellow socialist group with a bad line instead of a neoliberal thinktank.

The problem is that I haven't seen anyone in this thread pin down exactly who the Fabians were and are.

[Apoi_Viitor]

No- what I'm saying is we should not jump in on the bandwagon the right is pitching trying. The Fabian Society had elitist and crappy values, but I don't see how writing it off as "fascist" will accomplish anything.

I think there's definitely a connection between the early non-materialist socialist groups (like national syndicalists) and fascists. Had he been born in England, I think it's plausible that Mussolini would've identified himself with the Fabian Society...

[ed miliband]

I don't know, someone could also make the same argument about Mussolini emerging from the PSI and claim that socialist thought is responsible for fascism. I just don't think this is a good path to pursuit because it will seem to help rabid anti-socialist types more than being able to cast off the problems Fabianism caused.

Isn't the development of Mussolini's thinking quite clearly set out though? Like you can see how he went from a member of the PSI to the founding of the PNF in a number of clear steps, and it was a process that sprawled out over a number of years. In the case of Mosley he was in the Fabian Society until the BUF was established.

[Nolan]

As for the initial post, the influence of Nietzsche on fascism is important, but only because the fascists never understood Nietzsche. The only people Nietzsche seemed to hate more than Jews were Anti-Semites, and in fact one of his arguments against Judaism was criticizing it for creating Christianity. I always felt fascists used a number of Nietzschean ideas, but were only able to do it by ignoring some other ideas that he had.

Ok, but Italian fascism was never overly antisemitic until it was convenient. Some of Mussolini's colleagues were Jewish. And Mussolini was big on Nietzsche.

[Raúl Duke]

Some of Mussolini's colleagues were Jewish.

I even read somewhere that Mussolini's main mistress, who was Jewish, helped him write his theory/ideology books (Corporatism, or whatever it was called).

She only left when Mussolini, being the opportunist he is, decided to adopt some anti-semitism (something which, it seems, not many common Italian people cared about; I think some historians have even said that Vichy France did more for the Holocaust than Fascist Italy who mostly made few token deportations while in other cases Italian military personnel disobeyed German-influenced orders for Jewish deportation) so to curry Hitler's favor.

[ComradeOm]

Sadly, social engineering has a history within socialism as a way to cure social ills. I think it is a consequence of largely upper class people joining and becoming the leaders of democratic socialist parties, starting to view the people as a population of miceNot so much within socialism as it was Europe in general in the early 20th C. Its unsurprising that a number of Fabians were interested in eugenics or the like but this must be placed in context. Socialists were more concerned with 'social hygiene' than mass genocide or sterilisation, but eugenics was pretty popular throughout much of Europe (outside the USSR interestingly enough). Witness this Nazi propaganda poster from 1936:


http://ozebook.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2009/04/wir_stehen_nicht_allein.jpg("We do not stand alone". The shield carries the name and date of the Nazi 1933 eugenics law. Note the flags along the frame that denote countries that have introduced, or are planning to introduce, similar programmes)

[Dimentio]

Oh yes, Sweden there amongst them.

Biological theories on "human inferiority" are rather popular today as well. They are a convenient scapegoat to blame poverty and destitution on.