Marx and homophobia.

[Orange Juche]

I've heard it said that Marx/Engels had a pretty strong homophobic streak - can anyone inform me as to the accuracy of this and provide any information regarding their stance on homosexuality/transgender issues (if any)?

[Rafiq]

Who cares? They aren't prophets for christ's sake. What matters is the left position on the matter, and we will always remain with the same position on Queers(Homosexuals, Transgenders, ect.) Marx and Engels were nearly two hundred years ago. Time to move on. Some they say is right, some is bullshit.

[DuracellBunny97]

where did you hear they were homophobic? I can't find information like that anywhere. not that it really matters, even if the were the most bigoted people in the world, that doesn't mean their ideology should be rejected.

[Rafiq]

I mean, it's not like if they were homophobic the left will all of a sudden change their stance.

[Queercommie Girl]

Karl Marx never talked about homosexuality or transgenderism explicitly.

Some people claim Engels was homophobic, I dispute this. I think intrinsically Engels was in favour of sexual liberation in general, for he said:

What we can conjecture about the way in which sexual relations will be ordered after the impending overthrow of capitalist production is mainly of a negative character, limited for the most part to what will disappear. But what will there be new? That will be answered when a new generation has grown up … When these people are in the world they will care precious little what anybody today thinks they ought to do; they will make their own practice and their corresponding public opinion about the sexual practice of each individual – and that will be the end of it.

--- F Engels, The Origins of the Family, Private Property and the State in Marx and Engels, Selected Works (Moscow, 1962), p.241.

Engels did speak against pedophilia, but he never mentioned a single word about transgenderism.

(Note: those who are homophobic aren't necessarily transphobic, e.g. modern-day Iran, and vice versa)

However, among the early Marxists, Kautsky was the person who was the most explicitly vocal in his support for gay rights, and the Scientific Humanitarian Institute, linked to the German Social Democratic Party (SPD), established in 1897, was the first real homosexual rights organisation in the modern world.

[Orange Juche]

Who cares? They aren't prophets for christ's sake. What matters is the left position on the matter, and we will always remain with the same position on Queers(Homosexuals, Transgenders, ect.) Marx and Engels were nearly two hundred years ago. Time to move on. Some they say is right, some is bullshit.

It's a matter of curiosity, not changing my political ideology. I heard that, I was curious to see if it were true.

[Volcanicity]

You have to remember that Marx was writing in the 19th century where most people were less enlightened than we are today,that's not to excuse their point's of view but it needs to be taken into consideration.

[Summerspeaker]

I suggest checking out Gay Men and the Sexual History of the Political Left (http://books.google.com/books?id=yzxqWpVUyp4C&printsec=frontcover&dq=Gay+Men+and+the+Sexual+History+of+the+Political +Left&source=bl&ots=OtzYTn31uZ&sig=4jS-iUM7K0JAntG-ayIohTsuhSo&hl=en&ei=HslOTZ2aGYXogQe9o5TsDw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=3&ved=0CCoQ6AEwAg#v=onepage&q&f=false). Engels articulated your typical brand of straight supremacy in response to a pamphlet by gay liberation pioneer Karl Heinz Ulrichs. Marx used homophobia against opponents such as Bakunin. The apologists meaningfully distort the record in a way that marginalizes queer folks. Acknowledging the oppressive narratives articulated by historical radicals matters.

[TC]

I suggest checking out Gay Men and the Sexual History of the Political Left (http://books.google.com/books?id=yzxqWpVUyp4C&printsec=frontcover&dq=Gay+Men+and+the+Sexual+History+of+the+Political +Left&source=bl&ots=OtzYTn31uZ&sig=4jS-iUM7K0JAntG-ayIohTsuhSo&hl=en&ei=HslOTZ2aGYXogQe9o5TsDw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=3&ved=0CCoQ6AEwAg#v=onepage&q&f=false). Engels articulated your typical brand of straight supremacy in response to a pamphlet by gay liberation pioneer Karl Heinz Ulrichs. Marx used homophobia against opponents such as Bakunin. The apologists meaningfully distort the record in a way that marginalizes queer folks. Acknowledging the oppressive narratives articulated by historical radicals matters.


Can you cite this more specifically than just saying to check out a 400 page book? Looking through it briefly, I only see where it discusses Marx and Engels criticisms of pederasty. They ridiculed Johann Baptist Von Schweitzer for (among other things) being ephebophilic not gay. Similarly using the fact that Bakunin was apparently interested in someone 34 years younger than him who was barely an adult may indicate more their discomfort with (creepy) expressions of inter-generational lust (especially perhaps when directed towards crazy nihilists?) than homophobia in general, and Bakunin's interest in Nechaev was relevant not because they were the same sex but because Bakunin was appropriating money for himself and Nechaev's refusal to sign a receipt was taken as evidence of this.

I don't think the (widely held, even here) dislike of ephebophiles (who are so unpopular as to be mislabeled pedophiles) and intergenerational stalking (especially when Marx was obviously looking for any excuse to get Bakunin out of the international) necessarily implies homophobia.

Given the fact that the author of the book you cite is clearly interested in labeling Marx and Engels homophobes, the fact that they could not come up with a single incriminating statement makes me think that none exists.

[Kalifornia]

Of course he was a racist homophobic, He lived in times where no one knew much about these things.

As huey newton said, we uphold Marx's method, Dialectical Materialism, but do not uphold all of Marx's conclusions, especially as he was around in a time where Homosexuality was deemed somewhat evil and black people were treated like livestock.

For instance, John B Watson once stated that his favouraite pastime was hunting and hanging niggers, yet he made great forward strides in the analysis and investigation of conditioned responses.

[Zanthorus]

Of course he was a racist homophobic, He lived in times where no one knew much about these things.

Except so far no-one has come up with any convincing evidence that he was a homophobe. As for racism, in the programme of the Parti Ouvrier he wrote that the emancipation of the working-class was the emancipation of all human beings without race or sex. I really don't see what the point of all these endless quests to 'prove' that Marx and Engels held to this prejudice or the other is.

[Bandito]

Why does everybody want to make Marx and Engels saint-like?
They were philosophers. Good ones.

[Kalifornia]

Marx called a black man who was marrying a woman he knew as a gorrilla in a letter.

So what, does that disprove his economic theories?

[TC]

Except so far no-one has come up with any convincing evidence that he was a homophobe. As for racism, in the programme of the Parti Ouvrier he wrote that the emancipation of the working-class was the emancipation of all human beings without race or sex. I really don't see what the point of all these endless quests to 'prove' that Marx and Engels held to this prejudice or the other is.


I have evidence Marx was a racist scumbag! Here is what he wrote In On the Jewish Question:



in London and France, but especially in Germany, a multitude of more or less clever, intriguing, mobile, speculating Jews, such as Jews are every where: commercial or banking agents, writers, politicians, correspondents for newspapers of all shades, with one foot in the bank, the other in the socialist movement, and with their behinds sitting on the German daily press — they have taken possession of all the newspapers — and you can imagine what kind of sickening literature they produce. Now, this entire Jewish world, which forms a single profiteering sect, a people of blooksuckers, a single gluttonnous parasite, closely and intimately united not only across national borders but across all differences of political opinion

And

Jews. Write an article against this race that poisons everything by sticking its nose into everything without ever mixing with any other people...Abolish synagogues and not admit them to any employment. Finally, pursue the abolition of this religion...The Jew is the enemy of humankind. They must be sent back to Asia or be exterminated. By steel or by fire or by expulsion the Jew must disappear.

A Nazi before the Nazis.

...





...




...

Oh wait, that first quote was actually Bakunin writing against Marx (the bit omitted at the beginning was "Himself a Jew, Marx has around him," http://www.connexions.org/RedMenace/Docs/RM4-BakuninonMarxRothschild.htm

and the second quote was from everyone's favorite proto-fascist crazy, Pierre-Joseph Proudhon. http://www.marxists.org/reference/subject/economics/proudhon/1847/jews.htm

[Scarlet Fever]

I understand that Marx thought homosexuality was a bourgeois indulgence or deviation. Engels went so far as to say, "...but this degradation of the women [referring to prostitution in ancient Greece] was avenged on the men and degraded them also till they fell into the abominable practice of sodomy and degraded alike their gods with the myth of Ganymede."

I can't post the link (<25 posts) but there's a great article on the subject of "Marxism and the lesbian and gay question" on fifthinternational <dot> org, which I'm sure can be easily found with a Google search.

"Engels," the article says, "who laid the foundations of the Marxist analysis of the family, did not see the connection between the structure of the family under capitalism, together with the ideology associated with that structure, and the oppression of homosexuality," a connection which later Marxists came upon as general understanding of homosexuality increased. It goes on to say, "Engels developed this attitude in isolation from any existing homosexual rights movements and for once allowed a mixture of romanticism and Victorian morality to cloud his normally rigorously materialist judgement."

Does all of this matter? Sure. As a queer leftist myself, I am interested and invested in the roots of Marxism where homosexuality is concerned. However, the present place of queer liberation in modern leftist thinking is infinitely more important to me. After all, it was Lenin who years afterward amended the rallying cry to "Workers and oppressed peoples of the world, unite!"

[Princess Luna]

From the earliest European homosexual rights movements, activists such as Karl-Heinrich Ulrichs and Magnus Hirschfeld approached the Left for support. During the 1860s, Ulrichs wrote to Karl Marx and sent him a number of books on Uranian (homosexual/transgender) emancipation, and in 1869 Marx passed one of Ulrich's books on to Engels Engels responded with disgust to Marx in a private letter, lashing out at "pederasts" who are "extremely against nature", and described Ulrichs' platform of homosexual rights as "turning smut into theory". He worried that things would go badly for heterosexuals like himself should homosexual rights be gained.
Known to both Ulrichs and Marx was the case of Jean Baptista von Schweitzer, an important labor organiser who had been charged with attempting to solicit a teenage boy in a park in 1862. Social democrat leader Ferdinand Lassalle defended Schweitzer on the grounds that while he personally found homosexuality to be dirty, the labor movement needed the leadership of Schweitzer too much to abandon him, and that a person's sexual tastes had "absolutely nothing to do with a man’s political character". Marx, on the other hand, suggested that Engels use this incident to smear Schweitzer: "You must arrange for a few jokes about him to reach Siebel, for him to hawk around to the various papers." However, Schweitzer would go on to become President of the German Labor Union, and the first Social Democrat elected to a parliament in Europe.
Engels condemned homosexuality among men of ancient Greece in two separate passages of The Origin of the Family, Private Property, and the State, describing it as "morally deteriorated", "abominable", "loathsome" and "degrading".
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Socialism_and_LGBT_rights (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Socialism_and_LGBT_rights#Marx.2C_Engels.2C_Ulrich s_and_Schweitzer)

[Nothing Human Is Alien]

Can you cite this more specifically than just saying to check out a 400 page book?

Could you also point me to the places where Marx and Engels identify themselves as leftists?

[Jimmie Higgins]

First of all, the anti-gay comments (and the ones I read were pretty vile) that I know about come from personal letters, not any historical or theoretical writing. Therefore, criticizing MarxISM for homophobia is totally incorrect and generally comes from liberal activists who want to try and discredit radical politics by pointing to some "original sin" in Marxism. On the contrary, I think that Marxism provides an excellent framework for understanding the relationships of oppression and power and the necessity for solidarity with all oppressed groups under capitalism as part of the fight for the liberation of all people.

Second, there was no gay movement at that time and not even a distinction between "homo-" and "hetero-" sexuality as distinct things until the late 1800s. So it's a bit ahistorical to blame Marx or Engels or any radical of their era for homophobia when there wasn't even a "homosexual community" that could organize and fight for their rights and stand up against homophobia. Even Oscar Wilde who did have same-sex relationships and whose trial brought the concept of homosexuality into western culture said some pretty vile things about homosexuals, so I think we have to give these Victorian era figures some slack in this area.

[Queercommie Girl]

First of all, the anti-gay comments (and the ones I read were pretty vile) that I know about come from personal letters, not any historical or theoretical writing. Therefore, criticizing MarxISM for homophobia is totally incorrect and generally comes from liberal activists who want to try and discredit radical politics by pointing to some "original sin" in Marxism. On the contrary, I think that Marxism provides an excellent framework for understanding the relationships of oppression and power and the necessity for solidarity with all oppressed groups under capitalism as part of the fight for the liberation of all people.

Second, there was no gay movement at that time and not even a distinction between "homo-" and "hetero-" sexuality as distinct things until the late 1800s. So it's a bit ahistorical to blame Marx or Engels or any radical of their era for homophobia when there wasn't even a "homosexual community" that could organize and fight for their rights and stand up against homophobia. Even Oscar Wilde who did have same-sex relationships and whose trial brought the concept of homosexuality into western culture said some pretty vile things about homosexuals, so I think we have to give these Victorian era figures some slack in this area.

In practical terms, the only use I could see of mentioning these things is that even today in much of the 3rd world, socialists still tend to be homophobic and transphobic. As far as I know as things stand now, the majority of the revolutionary socialists in mainland China are homophobic.

So the fact that Marx and Engels may have had homophobic views may strengthen the homophobic attitudes of these people, and at the very least make it very difficult to convince them to change their views.

To be frank, I've been thinking about how to change the homophobic and often transphobic (homophobia tends to be more widespread than transphobia in China) attitudes of contemporary Chinese socialists, and I don't even know where to start. :crying:

[LibertarianSocialist1]

Engels was definitely homophobic. Marx was probably also homophobic, considering that he lived in the 19th century.

[Queercommie Girl]

Whether or not someone is homophobic is not primarily determined by which epoch of history he or she lives in.

There were many homosexuals in ancient times, and the Scientific Humanitarian Institute started to operate in 1897. Kautsky explicitly supported gay rights.

By contrast, even today, the majority of socialists in mainland China are still homophobic.

People never ever become more LGBT-friendly "naturally" as time goes on, without active campaigning.

[Kalifornia]

Well there were NO pro LGBT rights stances from anyone in europe at that time, were there?

Its only logical Marx is too influenced by the societal dominant cultures at the time, no?

[Dimentio]

I've heard it said that Marx/Engels had a pretty strong homophobic streak - can anyone inform me as to the accuracy of this and provide any information regarding their stance on homosexuality/transgender issues (if any)?

In the 19th century, most people were homophobes. There was a gay culture in the intelligentsia, but mostly underground.

[Dimentio]

Well there were NO pro LGBT rights stances from anyone in europe at that time, were there?

Its only logical Marx is too influenced by the societal dominant cultures at the time, no?

Oscar Wilde.

[Queercommie Girl]

In the 19th century, most people were homophobes. There was a gay culture in the intelligentsia, but mostly underground.

Correction:

In the 21st century, most people on planet Earth are homophobes and transphobes.

You obviously haven't been to much of the world.

I love it how some people almost implicitly assume that homophobia/transphobia etc. is just "a thing of the past" now.

Or maybe they think Europe is the only continent in the world?

[Dimentio]

Correction:

In the 21st century, most people on planet Earth are homophobes and transphobes.

You obviously haven't been to much of the world.

I love it how some people almost implicitly assume that homophobia/transphobia etc. is just "a thing of the past" now.

Or maybe they think Europe is the only continent in the world?

Sorry. It's obviously correct. I am living in Sweden, and here homophobes are generally viewed like individuals who hate people of colour. They do exist, but they usually keep silent out of fear of being stigmatised.

[Queercommie Girl]

Sorry. It's obviously correct. I am living in Sweden, and here homophobes are generally viewed like individuals who hate people of colour. They do exist, but they usually keep silent out of fear of being stigmatised.


Yes, of course. Whereas in China, most homosexuals are still "underground" or they would be looked down upon like social outcasts.

The majority of socialists in China are still homophobic, and to a lesser extent, transphobic. (In Asian countries transphobia generally tend to be less than homophobia for some reason)

[Bardo]

Who cares? They aren't prophets for christ's sake. What matters is the left position on the matter, and we will always remain with the same position on Queers(Homosexuals, Transgenders, ect.) Marx and Engels were nearly two hundred years ago. Time to move on. Some they say is right, some is bullshit.

This was exactly my first thought

[Sinister Cultural Marxist]

Compared to the "prophets" of anarchism, liberal democracy, conservatism, nationalistic socialism, european imperialism and the other dominant political ideologies of the 1800s, 1900s, Marx was outright enlightened.

that said, he still lived in the 1800s, and was limited by the context of his time.

As others have said, he never mentions it explicitly in his theoretical works, implying that if he did hold anti-gay views, they were not important enough to him to argue. This implies that they were personal opinions of his. He may have even held contradictory beliefs on it. Who knows? He was a human being.

[Queercommie Girl]

Does all of this matter? Sure. As a queer leftist myself, I am interested and invested in the roots of Marxism where homosexuality is concerned. However, the present place of queer liberation in modern leftist thinking is infinitely more important to me. After all, it was Lenin who years afterward amended the rallying cry to "Workers and oppressed peoples of the world, unite!"

Why even separate "workers" and "queer people"? That's completely ridiculous.

Fact is, the majority of queer people are workers anyway.

[Scarlet Fever]

Why even separate "workers" and "queer people"? That's completely ridiculous.

Fact is, the majority of queer people are workers anyway.

I think I see what you mean: if the workers of the world unite, then the divions between them (prejudice on the basis of race, gender, sexuality, or any number of factors) will fall away. However, I think that's rather putting the cart before the horse. In my mind, the workers of the world will only be able to unite once the divions between them are overcome. I mean, if worker liberation = queer liberation outright, then a few problems would seem to crop up, such as Stalin's (re)criminalization homosexuality in the USSR. Moreover, as has been pointed out, there are plenty of homophobic socialists in China and elsewhere who seem eager to do the same today. If these bourgeoisie-imposed divisions are not first removed, then, even if the institutional manifestations of sexism, racism, homophobia, ableism, etc. are eliminated, the underlying sentiments--to which we have become unfortunately accustomed--will remain with us like a "phantom limb" the amputee "feels" long after surgery is over.

Workers' liberation is of course the overarching, umbrella goal. Within this larger effort, though, the unique struggles and concerns of women, racial minorities, sexual minorities, and other marginalized groups merit specific recognition. Far from competing with workers' liberation, this recognition is, IMHO, key to its eventual realization.

[Summerspeaker]

All the people who claim there was no LGBT movement at the time miss that Engels (and Marx at least implicitly) specifically attacked Karl Heinrich Ulrichs (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karl_Heinrich_Ulrichs). They had the option to support Ulrichs and queer liberation but declined.

[Luís Henrique]

Bakunin's interest in Nechaev was relevant not because they were the same sex but because Bakunin was appropriating money for himself and Nechaev's refusal to sign a receipt was taken as evidence of this.

I don't think the (widely held, even here) dislike of ephebophiles (who are so unpopular as to be mislabeled pedophiles) and intergenerational stalking (especially when Marx was obviously looking for any excuse to get Bakunin out of the international) necessarily implies homophobia.

I have yet to see any proof that Marx even hinted about Bakunin's supposed homosexual attraction to Nachaev. What I have seen and read is what is evident: Bakunin - probably out of his apparently unlimited naïveté rather than out of malice - allowed Nachaev to blackmail a well-known publisher of socialist books, in order to relief himself, Bakunin, from a job he had lost interest in. This was certainly used against Bakunin, and, might I say, rightly so. Whether he slept, or secretely dreamed to sleep, with this filthy murderer and possible police provocateur is immaterial (moreso because Nachaev was much younger than Bakunin but was certainly no child or teenager), and it seems a modern speculation rather than something that was discussed at the time (see for instance Woodcock's work, hardly sympathetical to Marx).

Luís Henrique

[Queercommie Girl]

I think I see what you mean: if the workers of the world unite, then the divions between them (prejudice on the basis of race, gender, sexuality, or any number of factors) will fall away. However, I think that's rather putting the cart before the horse. In my mind, the workers of the world will only be able to unite once the divions between them are overcome. I mean, if worker liberation = queer liberation outright, then a few problems would seem to crop up, such as Stalin's (re)criminalization homosexuality in the USSR. Moreover, as has been pointed out, there are plenty of homophobic socialists in China and elsewhere who seem eager to do the same today. If these bourgeoisie-imposed divisions are not first removed, then, even if the institutional manifestations of sexism, racism, homophobia, ableism, etc. are eliminated, the underlying sentiments--to which we have become unfortunately accustomed--will remain with us like a "phantom limb" the amputee "feels" long after surgery is over.

Workers' liberation is of course the overarching, umbrella goal. Within this larger effort, though, the unique struggles and concerns of women, racial minorities, sexual minorities, and other marginalized groups merit specific recognition. Far from competing with workers' liberation, this recognition is, IMHO, key to its eventual realization.

My point is that you are almost implying that queers aren't real workers.

Besides, I doubt Stalin really liberated workers.

[Hoipolloi Cassidy]

Marx called a black man who was marrying a woman he knew as a gorrilla in a letter.

So what, does that disprove his economic theories?
I believe you're referring to Paul Lafarge, who was of "mixed blood" and who married Marx's daughter...