a map

[scarletghoul]

Bright Red = Liberated territories
Pale Red = Guerilla zones/areas of intense class struggle which could conceivably become liberated within ten years ( i use this for intense political struggle aswell as military)
Pink = Areas where there are strong socialist forces, though not currently engaged in intense struggle (could conceivably become 'guerilla zones' in ten years
pale yellow = areas where there are very powerful but revisionist communist parties
http://oi51.tinypic.com/s5wnd4.jpg
There will be loads of criticisms and corrections so lets hear them (there must be something going on in africa..).

Anyway I made this to give an idea of the global situation today. There are two powerful Asian countries with millions of genuine socialists in them. Securing just one of them would be a major boost for the world movement, and could mean the revisionist parties in Russia, Japan, etc turn proper socialist and would also help Cuba and Korea regain strength. The growing socialism in Latin America is also good.

In other words there is every possibility of the global socialist movement 'bouncing back'

[Delenda Carthago]

A. I think it would be a good idea to post better titles for our posts. Like "Wordwide maping of the resistance" for instance would be a better way for all of us to undestand and research in the future than "a map"

B.North Korea is a... "liberated zone"?Last time I checked they were under the dictatorship of a half crazy socialfascist who luckily for us declared that marxism, leninism and stalinism is irrelevant for our times and we dont have to apologise for them.

C.The "powerfull but revisionist communist party" of Russia is not powerfull and not communist.At all. So that means that its not revisionist too.Its just an excuse for the Putin regime to declare "democracy".

D.Why France,Italy, Portugal and Chile are not pink?And what about the MST territories in Brazil?Or Chiapas in Mexico?

[scarletghoul]

A. I think it would be a good idea to post better titles for our posts. Like "Wordwide maping of the resistance" for instance would be a better way for all of us to undestand and research in the future than "a map"

B.North Korea is a... "liberated zone"?Last time I checked they were under the dictatorship of a half crazy socialfascist who luckily for us declared that marxism, leninism and stalinism is irrelevant for our times and we dont have to apologise for them.

C.The "powerfull but revisionist communist party" of Russia is not powerfull and not communist.At all. So that means that its not revisionist too.Its just an excuse for the Putin regime to declare "democracy".

D.Why France,Italy, Portugal and Chile are not pink?And what about the MST territories in Brazil?Or Chiapas in Mexico?
im tired and couldnt think of a good title, this is just for fun realy. Lets not get into the North Korea debate again here lol. And whatever the problems with the Party, there are many many communists in Russia. I dont know much about he movements in western europe, maybe they should be added. Chiapas is on there.

[Sasha]

Lol, if north Korea is "liberated" you can keep your liberation out of my way thank you.

[Wanted Man]

The map seems rather ill-conceived. What are the criteria for being "liberated" when you look at all the areas that you have designated as such? Why are socialist countries, capitalist countries with some areas of resistance and 100% capitalist countries considered equally "liberated"?

What makes the Russian and Japanese CPs "very powerful but revisionist", is this some kind of new Marxist analysis? :rolleyes: If we go by size, we can also colour France, Italy and Moldova yellow.

Why are Cuba and DPRK red, while China, Vietnam and Laos are pink? I mean, I'm not saying that the latter three should be red, but it is a pretty clear discrepancy. Of course, leftists will always complain about who gets to be red, because it doesn't fit their party line, but you've contrived to make a divide that all of them can find fault with. :p

What about Egypt, Tunisia, Palestine? What about Bolivia, Ecuador, Nicaragua and other Latin American countries, what makes Venezuela "liberated" and not them? What qualifies as "intense class struggle"? If you're going to colour Greece pink, you might as well include Italy, France, Spain, Portugal and the UK; the reality is that class struggle occurs everywhere, to different degrees of "intensity", and colour-coding these degrees seems incredibly arbitrary.

The difference between red, pale red and pink works well when you look at some countries, but it's a bit more difficult to ascertain when comparing a country on one half of the globe to another one on the other side. It's difficult to distinguish "liberated" from "intense class struggle".

I don't want to be too harsh on this, because the idea of such a map is not bad; but the chances of being arbitrary or just plain wrong are absolutely huge. Instead of these ridiculous distinctions, I would just highlight what the current flashpoints are, maybe with a list of recent significant actions would work. I dunno man, making this kind of map seems incredibly tough. I'd just print one out, put it on my corkboard and mark the flashpoints with pins or something.

[Admiral Swagmeister G-Funk]

I'm pretty sure that this map wont suit anyone but yourself dude. A very, very small amount of people would consider NK a liberated zone - most of them are members of the NK government ;).

[A Revolutionary Tool]

There will be loads of criticisms and corrections so lets hear them


Lets not get into the North Korea debate again here lol.
Lol indeed.

[Blackscare]

Lets not get into the North Korea debate again here lol.


That's very hard considering you simply mapped out, geographically, your political convictions. This is in no way something that could be considered objective analysis. And any such objective analysis would be pretty much impossible anyway, unless you decided to use far more concrete criteria and specific definitions than "liberated" and such.

[Rusty Shackleford]

id say put Tunisia in medium Red and Tahrir Square in deep red. and Egypt in ligh or medium red. (whichever indicated political change/guerrilla-ness.

[Rusty Shackleford]

also, may i suggest mapping sudan and the south of sudan as a conflict area.

[Patchd]

Why are you so focused on what could or what couldn't become 'guerilla zones'? A guerilla war does not necessarily have to be a part of revolutionary struggle, nor is it the most important aspect of class struggle where it is used.

[scarletghoul]

hmm this wasnt really supposed to be a serious discussion as obviously such a thing could have endless versions according to tendency and opinion

Why are you so focused on what could or what couldn't become 'guerilla zones'? A guerilla war does not necessarily have to be a part of revolutionary struggle, nor is it the most important aspect of class struggle where it is used.
i used the term guerilla zone as a kind of metaphor to just mean areas where revolutionary forces are fighting reactionary forces intensely

anyway this thread is lame can it be trashed

[the last donut of the night]

BUT where's the radical islamic marxist caliphate that will engulf europe????

[Widerstand]

Somalia should be "liberated", it's anarchism!111

[Os Cangaceiros]

I obviously disagree strongly with what's on that map, but (trying to keep it constructive) you might want to color Nigeria pink, due to the activities of MEND (Movement For The Emancipation Of The Niger Delta...they've been doing a good job in recent years of severely hampering oil production, although I'm not sure to what extent they're socialist).

Although I guess it depends on what you mean by "intense" conflict...I mean, the level of conflict that the major cartels are carrying out in Mexico right now outdoes most socialist guerilla groups that I can think of.

[wunderbar]

lol @ North Korea being on this map.

And why exactly is Chiapas considered a "liberated territory"? Just because a portion of the state is under de facto EZLN jurisdiction doesn't mean that the whole entity is "liberated".

[Sasha]

Also im still puzzeled at the Russia thing, i mean surely for example the southafrican communist party is way more to the left than the russian one, yet still holds a big influence on the anc/politics.

[28350]

No countries can be "liberated" while capitalism is a global force.

[Le Socialiste]

I sure wouldn't consider Cuba and N. Korea "liberated zones"; both states are ruled over by corrupt, opportunistic despots. Cuba possibly less so, but N. Korea is an impoverished nation that supports the monarchist dynasty implemented by Kim Il Sung. Neither are exactly pioneers of the worldwide liberation movement. Unfortunately, most "socialist" states have either languished under corrupt rulers/parties or gone the reformist road. However, that is not to say the movements there are dead. The populations there are, I would suspect, very much supportive of our movement - though possibly wary given their history. The 20th century showed us what we did wrong - authoritarian states are not the answer. Whatever direction the socialist movement goes in, it must be oriented towards the furtherment of democracy within the contours of the socialist Ideal (I use that term quite a bit, I'd love to explain it if anyone's curious). The movements in S. America and S. Asia are encouraging, though I would remain cautious given their historical nature (the Indian insurgents are Maoists, while Venezuala's Chavez has moved increasingly towards authoritarianism).

That all said, I remain encouraged by the younger movements developing in these areas. What worries me is the lack of movement (or coloring) in the N. Africa/Mid-East region. There's been plenty of activity there in the past 2-3 months, though these haven't necessarily manifested themselves as oriented towards socialism. Nevertheless, they are firmly based along the old class antagonisms and divisions elaborated on by Marx. I continue to look for any major developments as to where these uprisings/movements might head, but so far - aside from multiple strikes and refusals to work - I haven't seen much in the way of a workers' and peoples' led revolt. We'll see, I gues. What, in your opinion, would be the state of N. America/Europe?

[Dean]

N Korea is by definition a revisionist state - it has abandoned its "Marxism" for "Juche."

[Dr Mindbender]

Also im still puzzeled at the Russia thing, i mean surely for example the southafrican communist party is way more to the left than the russian one, yet still holds a big influence on the anc/politics.

The Japanese communist party is the second most influential party in Japan, therefore japan should be pink.

I'd say Ireland has shifted in quite a pronounced way to the left after Fianna Fail fucked up, maybe Ireland should be yellow.

[Tommy4ever]

I've decided to try to make a new map using some of the information posted in this thread as well as election results etc.

I'm going to mark the following things:

Countries where armed conflicts involving socialist groups are taking place

Areas governed by parties bearing the name 'communist'

Areas governed by Leftists (I've just marked Venezuela and Cuba at the moment)

Areas of current and intense class struggle - areas effected by the current revolutionary wave plus Greece

Areas with major communist or Leftist political parties (communist/leftist in name or practise) - countries where far left parties poll 10% or over in elections

Areas with significant communist or Leftist political parties (communist/leftist in name or practise) - countries where the far left parties poll around 5% -10%

I'll post back with the map soon.

[Dimentio]

That map is ridiculous. If North Korea is "liberated", then... well, I don't even find an ironic simile. It's like saying that the Black Death cured people from being alive.

[Omsk]

And yes,why did you not put Serbia in?The left-ist socialist's party of Serbia is in the parliament,and,it has about 10% of support.The number of members and voter's is ing,and the SPS will probably be in the top with the other leading party's.So,basicly,there are strong socialist forces in it.Just because the socialist's dont have the majority does not mean that their influence and political power is abysmal.

[Tommy4ever]

What do you guys think of Morales?

If you consider him socialist then on my map he should be red. If you don't then Bolivia would not be coloured at all - considering the country's left leaning nature that would be a shame.

EDIT - Also Ecuador?

[mosfeld]

Bright Red = Liberated territories
Pale Red = Guerilla zones/areas of intense class struggle which could conceivably become liberated within ten years ( i use this for intense political struggle aswell as military)
Pink = Areas where there are strong socialist forces, though not currently engaged in intense struggle (could conceivably become 'guerilla zones' in ten years
pale yellow = areas where there are very powerful but revisionist communist parties

Good idea scarly :)

I'd add Venezuela, China, DPRK, Laos, Vietnam, Guatemala to pale yellow, though, and add Turkey (Black Sea Region and Kurdistan) into either pale red or pink (it's too underreported), as well as Bangladesh.