Poets Here Now

[Ele'ill]

So there appears to be quite a few poets on revleft and I want a thread like this dedicated to addressing the various troubles we have- and just a place to post about your work and writing process.

Have you ever gone back to an unpublished collection of yours that you thought was finished and nicely polished when you left it- and read through each of the poems in it and realized what absolute shit they are? I just did this and am editing them heavily- the original emotion that prompted their writing is still very intact but the wording is just atrocious. I've not had this happen before but this particular folder of about ten poems is just bad.

Do you all listen to music when you write? I usually listen to ambient stuff. I'm listening to Aphex Twin's Blue Calx right now- in reverse. I'll write or edit listening then turn the music off and reread it and edit then go back to the music.

Drugs? I've written good pieces drunk, way up on caffeine and sober but never on anything else.

I watched 'Howl' the other day, I appreciate other poets but never found Ginsbergs pieces to be note worthy in their entirety- certain lines move me of course. I found much of the talk of what it means to write to be accurate. I think he got lucky in regards to publicity.

That's all I've got at the moment.

[Amphictyonis]

I always write better when I'm burned out from partying for some reason. It gives me a sort of goofy edge? When you hit your 30's it doesn't take much to get that goofy hungover feeling. A bottle of wine will do the trick :) I think suffering in general makes good art only so long as we don't come off as cry asses.

[Ele'ill]

Poetry is a description of the emotion felt when observing, no? But with this said, do you prefer to read poems that are self explanatory or poems that are in the form of obscure riddle. I respect the latter infinitely more. It of course has to be done correctly. It makes you search for meaning in the same way the poet had to in order to write the piece.

[scarletghoul]

havnt written a poem for ages, used to write them all the time. Don't know what happened..

[Arlekino]

I would glad to read them please post your poetry.

[Fawkes]

I tend to write really late at night while sober. Often what happens is I'll have a huge, rapid burst of mental activity and creativity and I'll write upwards of three different things simultaneously, and they are often at least seemingly totally unrelated in subject matter and tone. That doesn't happen all that often though, only about once or twice a month

[Thirsty Crow]

Poetry is a description of the emotion felt when observing, no?If that were the case, then there would be no difference between "poetry" and a narrative description of a character's feelings while observing some action/event in a novel.

I think it is most useful to conceive poetry as a specific kind of language organization within the broader aesthetic/artistic function of it.
Formal characteristics are important as well. And by formal I mostly mean rhythmic properties (since these, alongside meter, are what really distinguishes poetry from artistic prose).


But with this said, do you prefer to read poems that are self explanatory or poems that are in the form of obscure riddle. I respect the latter infinitely more. It of course has to be done correctly. It makes you search for meaning in the same way the poet had to in order to write the piece.What do you mean by the expression "form of obscure riddle"? Do you refer to the density of the symbolic aspects of the poem?

[Ele'ill]

If that were the case, then there would be no difference between "poetry" and a narrative description of a character's feelings while observing some action/event in a novel.

Narrative description of feelings within a novel should not be flat at all. The best character descriptions that help the reader bond or identify with the characters are going to be colorful descriptive showings of the emotion they feel.



I think it is most useful to conceive poetry as a specific kind of language organization within the broader aesthetic/artistic function of it.
Formal characteristics are important as well. And by formal I mostly mean rhythmic properties (since these, alongside meter, are what really distinguishes poetry from artistic prose).

I don't believe poetry needs to have specific or formal meter or rhythmic properties.



What do you mean by the expression "form of obscure riddle"? Do you refer to the density of the symbolic aspects of the poem?


It makes you search for meaning in the same way the poet had to in order to write the piece.

So they're seeing the emotion felt in such a situation and piecing together the illustrated backdrop second hand.

When I write about a winter landscape of my childhood where something horrible happened I don't mention the specifics of what happened and I don't tell about the landscape. I demonstrate through show without telling.

[Sixiang]

Hey there. I write and read poetry quite a bit. I have been posting poetry on the blog part of my account here on revleft. I like any sort of comments, criticism, or advise on them if anyone is interested in reading them.


Have you ever gone back to an unpublished collection of yours that you thought was finished and nicely polished when you left it- and read through each of the poems in it and realized what absolute shit they are?
I have edited some of my poems heavily. Some of them I have only changed a few words. Some I have left alone. It just depends.


Do you all listen to music when you write?
No. Not usually, at least. A few days ago I wrote a haiku while the radio was playing jazz softly in the background.


Drugs?
Only while on a caffeine high from drinking too much soda pop.


I watched 'Howl' the other day, I appreciate other poets but never found Ginsbergs pieces to be note worthy in their entirety- certain lines move me of course. I found much of the talk of what it means to write to be accurate. I think he got lucky in regards to publicity.

I also watched that movie just a few days ago. I personally am a huge fan of Ginsberg. He's one of my favorite poets and Howl is one of my favorite poems. I also look to William Shakespeare, T.S. Eliot, E.E. Cummings, Walt Whitman, John Donne, Mao Tse-Tung, Edgar Allen Poe, Emily Dickinson, and many others for poetic inspiration.

As far as form, I mostly write in free verse, but I have tried structured poetry a few times. I find that my rhymes seem fake and cheesy ("the cat sat on the mat"-type cheesy rhymes). It's hard to keep the real emotion intact and rhyme. I like iambic poetry that isn't necessarily rhymed. In particular, I love haiku. I write and read quite a bit of it. I am alright with counting out a certain amount of syllables, it's just the rhyming that kills me.

[Thirsty Crow]

Narrative description of feelings within a novel should not be flat at all. The best character descriptions that help the reader bond or identify with the characters are going to be colorful descriptive showings of the emotion they feel.I don't see how this relates to what you said poetry is ("Poetry is a description of the emotion felt when observing, no?"). If we were to define poetry in such a manner, we wouldn't be able to distinguish betweenn a narrative description of a character's feelings while he/she observes an event/phenomenon/action.
That means poetry is something different than a description of the emotion felt when observing


I don't believe poetry needs to have specific or formal meter or rhythmic properties.You're right, poetry does not need to possess a formally determined meter. Historically, it has gotten rid of it by the end of 19th ct. but what remains is a thoroughly specific rhythmic organization. Consider the fact that poetry is most often written in lines (there is the exception in the form of the prose poem, but things get way too complicated with this so I think it's better not to go there). And that puts it into a position of contrast to prose which is not written in such a way. This mode of writing produces specific effects which shouldn't be neglected. But that is not to say that there should be a prescribed rhythmic pattern, very far from it. It is just that by mere virtue of writing in lines you do produce a kind of a rhythm specific to poetry as a mode of artistic writing, no matter how exactly you do that.



So they're seeing the emotion felt in such a situation and piecing together the illustrated backdrop second hand.
When I write about a winter landscape of my childhood where something horrible happened I don't mention the specifics of what happened and I don't tell about the landscape. I demonstrate through show without telling.The thing is, not all poetry is written in such a way, proceeding from an emotion felt by the author. I think it is futile, most of the time, to try to "uncover" the "what-did-the-poet-intend-to-mean" precisely because of the fact that poetry does not need to be written in such a way that we would be able to discern a specific, discrete emotion.

[Thirsty Crow]

As far as form, I mostly write in free verse, but I have tried structured poetry a few times.
It's interesting that you imply that free verse is not structured, or "non-structured form". But it is not so, as every kind of writing is to a lesser or greater degree structured (for example, surrealist "word salad", non-sense poetry is structured as well, the primary factor being the free flow of associations, tapping into the unconscious; if it does not conform to an established pattern of rhymes, meter and rhythm, it doesn't mean it is not structured).

[Ele'ill]

I don't see how this relates to what you said poetry is ("Poetry is a description of the emotion felt when observing, no?"). If we were to define poetry in such a manner, we wouldn't be able to distinguish betweenn a narrative description of a character's feelings while he/she observes an event/phenomenon/action.
That means poetry is something different than a description of the emotion felt when observing

I see a car accident- I feel various emotions- I write the piece according to those emotions. I attempt to illustrate the emotion not the event itself.


You're right, poetry does not need to possess a formally determined meter. Historically, it has gotten rid of it by the end of 19th ct. but what remains is a thoroughly specific rhythmic organization. Consider the fact that poetry is most often written in lines (there is the exception in the form of the prose poem, but things get way too complicated with this so I think it's better not to go there). And that puts it into a position of contrast to prose which is not written in such a way. This mode of writing produces specific effects which shouldn't be neglected. But that is not to say that there should be a prescribed rhythmic pattern, very far from it. It is just that by mere virtue of writing in lines you do produce a kind of a rhythm specific to poetry as a mode of artistic writing, no matter how exactly you do that.



The thing is, not all poetry is written in such a way, proceeding from an emotion felt by the author. I think it is futile, most of the time, to try to "uncover" the "what-did-the-poet-intend-to-mean" precisely because of the fact that poetry does not need to be written in such a way that we would be able to discern a specific, discrete emotion.

I'm sure every poet has their own approach and intent- poems describe feelings.

[Sixiang]

Who cares? Poetry is cool. Can we please not argue so much that this thread is derailed right off a cliff and into a canyon like so many other threads?

[Il Medico]

My writing ritual, be it prose or poetry, usual consist of some combo of coffee and fags. Though i've (at least temporarily) given up fags, so I'm not sure what to replace it with. Perhaps liquor?

As for my former shit, well, I usually consider it just that, shit, when I go back to it. Which i usually don't cause I already hate my current stuff, no need to find even worse stuff.

[Fawkes]

I also have noticed that I often have random creative spurts in the morning right when I wake up. This morning I woke up incredibly burnt out after only 6 hours of sleep and picked up the notebook next to my bed and wrote an opening scene for a movie I'm working on and then just fell back to sleep. I didn't even remember exactly what I wrote when I woke up again a few hours later. Comes at random times I guess.

[Amphictyonis]

Poetry is a description of the emotion felt when observing, no? But with this said, do you prefer to read poems that are self explanatory or poems that are in the form of obscure riddle. I respect the latter infinitely more. It of course has to be done correctly. It makes you search for meaning in the same way the poet had to in order to write the piece.

Sometimes the bluntness of a Bukowski or Dorothy Parker is refreshing but other times yes, I'll sit and read T.S. Elliot.

Mr-Not-So-Slick
i think
i have it together
yet today
i sat on the toilet
bent my dick in half
and pissed
on my own
balls

-Raegan Butcher-

[Thirsty Crow]

I'm sure every poet has their own approach and intent- poems describe feelings.
Well, I wouldn't say that most of the stuff what I write describes feelings. In fact, most often there's no feeling at all. So, according to your statement, that wouldn't be poetry...:crying:
(and I'm not kidding)

[Decolonize The Left]

I write best late at night, usually after I've got into bed and am attempting to fall asleep. It seems as though at this time I am able to forgo the details of what I need 'to do' and relax a bit.

As for music, jazz mostly. In fact, if I'm going to listen to music at all while I write it has to be jazz. Whiskey helps. I stopped smoking recently so the cigarette breaks are no good anymore though when I was smoking they really helped as I was able to step outside and change the scene.

Also, as for the debate to "what is poetry?" It's rather silly to debate the topic. A poem is a song without musical accompaniment and a song is a poem with musical backing. Songs/poems can describe anything from feelings to observations to rants to nonsense. It is a poem if it is constructed to be one.

- August

[Ele'ill]

I write best from midnightish till eight or nine in the morning.

[Magón]

Sometimes the bluntness of a Bukowski

YEAH!!!
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[x359594]

I'm not sure how many people here follow developments in the poetry world, but one current movement where interesting work is being done is the Expansivist School. It includes neo-formalist poetry and neo-narrative poetry.

Near the end of the 1970s a number of emerging poets who started in the free verse mode took up composing in classical forms, at first, as an experiment. By the mid-1980s a significant number of poets were writing formal verse. These poets, along with poets who told stories in verse, pioneered the Expansivist Movement.

The New Formalists believed that poetry had lost touch with a broad audience and become a genre of writing read and enjoyed only by other writers of poetry. They wanted to return poetry to the people. These poets rejected free verse because, in their view, poetry should differ from prose by virtue of meter, rhyme, and other formal requirements. The demotic language of free verse too much resembles mundane language and newspaper prose, and the language of poetry must be heightened and different in kind. Finally, the characteristic poetry of free verse tends to be personal and parochial, self-revealing rather than self-transcending and universal.

Of course, these criticisms of free verse are not entirely accurate; much work in free verse is not restricted to the short lyric of personal revelation and reminiscence, and the best surrealism in English uses language in startlingly original ways. Be that as it may, neo-formalist poetry has its own virtues that stand without making invidious comparisons.

By now the champions of neo-formalism should have moved beyond the (perhaps necessary) polemical arguments for the revival of rhyme and meter. When one speaks of neo-formalism today, it’s probably best to use the term descriptively rather than normatively. In itself neo-formalism is not necessarily better or worse than free verse. That said, what are the specific virtues of neo-formalism?

When someone who doesn’t ordinarily write poetry is asked to write a poem he or she usually writes something in rhyme, most often a sing song bit of doggerel. I think this attests to the fact that rhyme is intrinsically interesting to many people. The appeal is to the ear. In the hands of a skilled poet rhyme and meter make the language sing and add emotional depth to the poem. Mastering the traditional forms is not an easy task since it pre-supposes intimate familiarity with the classics, and as William Carlos Williams noted, “work in form requires excellence to begin with.”

Many poets who emerged over the last twenty years have made the effort to master form, among them Brad Leithauser, Mary Jo Salter, Timothy Steele, Charles Martin, Marilyn Hacker and, most famously, Dana Gioia. The results of their efforts speak for themselves, and in their best work one finds a purity of language, a clarity of cadence and a pleasing musical rhythm. By now it should be obvious that the revival of traditional forms is here to stay, and, if I may say so, to the mutual benefit of free verse poets and poetry lovers of all persuasions.

Concerning neo-narrative, the limitations of the lyric poem, according to the neo-narrative poets, are its assumptions that the poet’s feelings and experiences are representative for all people everywhere, that what the poet feels about another’s experience is important to that experience, and that the subjective component of a situation is the most meaningful. By contrast, the neo-narrative poets believe that a poetry of story telling and authorial impersonality can embrace a wider range of responses to the world and reflect a greater variety of experiences of the world than the short subjective lyric can handle.

It’s worth noting that The Golden Gate by Vikram Seth was the highest selling volume of poetry in the 1980s. Seth’s poem was marketed as a novel in verse, and he modeled it on Puskin’s Eugene Onegin. The poem tells the interlocking stories of a group of rather well off people living in the San Francisco Bay Area, and it remains a portrait of its era. Other notable neo-narrative poems are Quiet Money by Robert McDowell, The Adventure and Happiness by Frederick Pollack, Iris by Mark Jarman and The Marriage of Jacob by Charlotte Mandel. Although the treatment and themes of all these long poems are distinct, they show their authors’ attention to creating original plots, convincing characters, sharp dialogue, drama and authorial distance. The future of New Narrative poetry seems assured, and readers who formerly resisted poetry because they found it hermetic or inscrutable, have been able to enter the poetic universe through the familiar gates of plot, drama and character.


Concerning

[x359594]

I'm not sure how many people here follow developments in the poetry world, but one current movement where interesting work is being done is the Expansivist School. It includes neo-formalist poetry and neo-narrative poetry.

Near the end of the 1970s a number of emerging poets who started in the free verse mode took up composing in classical forms, at first, as an experiment. By the mid-1980s a significant number of poets were writing formal verse. These poets, along with poets who told stories in verse, pioneered the Expansivist Movement.

The New Formalists believed that poetry had lost touch with a broad audience and become a genre of writing read and enjoyed only by other writers of poetry. They wanted to return poetry to the people. These poets rejected free verse because, in their view, poetry should differ from prose by virtue of meter, rhyme, and other formal requirements. The demotic language of free verse too much resembles mundane language and newspaper prose, and the language of poetry must be heightened and different in kind. Finally, the characteristic poetry of free verse tends to be personal and parochial, self-revealing rather than self-transcending and universal.

Of course, these criticisms of free verse are not entirely accurate; much work in free verse is not restricted to the short lyric of personal revelation and reminiscence, and the best surrealism in English uses language in startlingly original ways. Be that as it may, neo-formalist poetry has its own virtues that stand without making invidious comparisons.

By now the champions of neo-formalism should have moved beyond the (perhaps necessary) polemical arguments for the revival of rhyme and meter. When one speaks of neo-formalism today, it’s probably best to use the term descriptively rather than normatively. In itself neo-formalism is not necessarily better or worse than free verse. That said, what are the specific virtues of neo-formalism?

When someone who doesn’t ordinarily write poetry is asked to write a poem he or she usually writes something in rhyme, most often a sing song bit of doggerel. I think this attests to the fact that rhyme is intrinsically interesting to many people. The appeal is to the ear. In the hands of a skilled poet rhyme and meter make the language sing and add emotional depth to the poem. Mastering the traditional forms is not an easy task since it pre-supposes intimate familiarity with the classics, and as William Carlos Williams noted, “work in form requires excellence to begin with.”

Many poets who emerged over the last twenty years have made the effort to master form, among them Brad Leithauser, Mary Jo Salter, Timothy Steele, Charles Martin, Marilyn Hacker and, most famously, Dana Gioia. The results of their efforts speak for themselves, and in their best work one finds a purity of language, a clarity of cadence and a pleasing musical rhythm. By now it should be obvious that the revival of traditional forms is here to stay, and, if I may say so, to the mutual benefit of free verse poets and poetry lovers of all persuasions.

Concerning neo-narrative, the limitations of the lyric poem, according to the neo-narrative poets, are its assumptions that the poet’s feelings and experiences are representative for all people everywhere, that what the poet feels about another’s experience is important to that experience, and that the subjective component of a situation is the most meaningful. By contrast, the neo-narrative poets believe that a poetry of story telling and authorial impersonality can embrace a wider range of responses to the world and reflect a greater variety of experiences of the world than the short subjective lyric can handle.

It’s worth noting that The Golden Gate by Vikram Seth was the highest selling volume of poetry in the 1980s. Seth’s poem was marketed as a novel in verse, and he modeled it on Puskin’s Eugene Onegin. The poem tells the interlocking stories of a group of rather well off people living in the San Francisco Bay Area, and it remains a portrait of its era. Other notable neo-narrative poems are Quiet Money by Robert McDowell, The Adventure and Happiness by Frederick Pollack, Iris by Mark Jarman and The Marriage of Jacob by Charlotte Mandel. Although the treatment and themes of all these long poems are distinct, they show their authors’ attention to creating original plots, convincing characters, sharp dialogue, drama and authorial distance. The future of New Narrative poetry seems assured, and readers who formerly resisted poetry because they found it hermetic or inscrutable, have been able to enter the poetic universe through the familiar gates of plot, drama and character.


Concerning