Send a leftist cop to the hall of justice!

[Nothing Human Is Alien]

Poster that appeared in San Francisco in 1994 when Gloria La Riva -- then a member of the WWP, now a leading member of the PSL -- ran for governor of California.

http://www.infoshop.org/myep/myep_wwp_cops.jpg

[The Garbage Disposal Unit]

I don't know who made that poster, but I want to make out with them.

[Widerstand]

That is one entertaining piece of propaganda.

There are no leftist cops! No justice no peace!

[Red Commissar]

From the nature of the poster I think it's supposed to be tongue-in-cheek and sarcastic, probably against the idea that a socialist would be running for office of any sort, much less than a position like that. Beyond the rhetoric of beating up workers from regimes they were associatedwith, Just look at the "sponsors" at the bottom:

Communist Party of Albania (exiled)
League of Counter-Revolutionary Struggle
Gorbachev Clubs USA
Communist Party (Kautskyist-Leninist)
Knights Templar
Paul Dumpster
Amalgamated Toxic Waste Workers
Working (really hard) Assets

It's humorous for what it's worth.

[Nothing Human Is Alien]

Was that not obvious?

[Widerstand]

Was that not obvious?

it was

[Ocean Seal]

"We supported the massacre in Tienammen square"
Generally, when you support something you don't call it a massacre. :laugh:

This is very funny. What's funnier is the idea of leftist cops.
Police Commissioner: Ok everyone do defend that bank, and pick up your riot gear.
**Police officers at the bank**
Banker: Whew, that's a relief. It even looks as if the black bloc didn't show. Hey wait a minute, why are those officers tying red flags to their night sticks.
**Police do a 180**
Banker::eek:

[Red Commissar]

Was that not obvious?

Oh it was. I'm just commenting on it.

It's cute and humorous, but I don't see the use of it beyond the crowd they were pitching to (Ie those who already have a low opinion of groups like the WWP). Outside it just seems to me to scream "holier-than-thou" and divisive.

[Nothing Human Is Alien]

So should criticism of leftists who wanna be top cop be avoided in the name of unity? Unity around what, by who? What do people who want to smash the state have in common with people who aspire to be police commanders?

[Red Commissar]

So should criticism of leftists who wanna be top cop be avoided in the name of unity? Unity around what, by who? What do people who want to smash the state have in common with people who aspire to be police commanders?

No, but I think there's a more effective way to pitch this message than with this method. Did this piece have effect beyond the people in their circle? It just seems like preaching to the choir of people who probably already knew this about WWP and other political groups that try to run for bourgeois political office.

[Widerstand]

So should criticism of leftists who wanna be top cop be avoided in the name of unity? Unity around what, by who? What do people who want to smash the state have in common with people who aspire to be police commanders?

Agreed, I don't see any solidarity with bourgeois lackeys.

[Widerstand]

No, but I think there's a more effective way to pitch this message than with this method. Did this piece have effect beyond the people in their circle? It just seems like preaching to the choir of people who probably already knew this about WWP and other political groups that try to run for bourgeois political office.

Isn't "Do people outside these circles really care?" the better question?

[Red Commissar]

Isn't "Do people outside these circles really care?" the better question?

Well, that's what I'm getting at. In my community there's unemployment, virtual collapse in working rights of any sort, urban decay, crime, etc- they could hardly care less about things like this. Trying to reach out to these people with things they care about rather than get got up in ideological disputes and grandstanding with propaganda against opposing groups- I think this field would be a better place to focus creative energies and skills. Thankfully I do see this in many places, I just facepalm when I see the other type though. It's worth just seems something limited to our arguments, not so much something very pertinent
to get people to be aware of their situation.

[Nothing Human Is Alien]

I think people facing unemployment are pretty aware of it.

[Red Commissar]

I think people facing unemployment are pretty aware of it.

Of an ideological dispute between WWP and their rivals? I don't think so. They could care less about that because it doesn't bring them any closer to finding answers or helping them towards awareness of capitalism.

That's where these creative energies should be. I can understand the issues of ideological dispute over which really represent the interests of the these people, but honestly things like these seem to be more concerned on oneupmanship between the members of opposing organizations than directing energy to something more useful.

Mind you I'm not getting defensive over the WWP, so I'm not angry that they're getting attacked. It's just that I question the effectiveness of these kinds of propaganda.

[TC]

It takes organization, dedication, and hard work to build the type of organization Gloria La Riva helped build.

It only takes lazy snarkyness to write up a mocking poster of her and post it around a city - and you know it was some real rightwing scum too since they seem to equate Castro with Ceausescu and Beria (two people who the WWP has never supported).

And it takes even far less to repost a copy of it while sitting back and taking cheap shots on the internet.


For what its worth, sheriff or district attorney is the absolute best position I can think of a socialist running for. A socialist sheriff would order the police not to enforce any drug offenses, property offenses, immigration offenses, or status crimes, and use the force exclusively against violent crime and white collar financial crimes. Many leftists try to get seats in the government of bourgeois states - a questionable practice - but to run for sheriff or DA would actually strike a blow to the state itself by hijacking part of the state coercive apparatus and causing it to no longer function.

[Widerstand]

It takes organization, dedication, and hard work to build the type of organization Gloria La Riva helped build.

Cool. Does this exempt her from criticism?



For what its worth, sheriff or district attorney is the absolute best position I can think of a socialist running for. A socialist sheriff would order the police not to enforce any drug offenses, property offenses, immigration offenses, or status crimes, and use the force exclusively against violent crime and white collar financial crimes.

Considering that if she did this for a few weeks she'd be pretty likely fired (unless sheriffs or DAs in the US have some sort of absolute authority about law enforcement), it's very doubtful she'd do it at all.



Many leftists try to get seats in the government of bourgeois states - a questionable practice - but to run for sheriff or DA would actually strike a blow to the state itself by hijacking part of the state coercive apparatus and causing it to no longer function.

This tactic has been tried before on a large scale, and it failed horribly. But it worked well to get a few people in certain higher positions in society, yes.

[Nothing Human Is Alien]

Of an ideological dispute between WWP and their rivals?

No. Of their facing unemployment.

Go back and read your post.

"...not so much something very pertinent to get people to be aware of their situation."

I don't think workers loosing their jobs need leftists to make them "aware of their situation."

[Red Commissar]

No. Of their facing unemployment.

Go back and read your post.

"...not so much something very pertinent to get people to be aware of their situation."

I don't think workers loosing their jobs need leftists to make them "aware of their situation."

My point was compared to situations like those, do ideological differences between WWP and their rivals really matter to them?

I mean my dad was unemployed for the longest time when I was young, and he hardly got "radical". If anything he got more conservative and bitter and falling in line with Republican banter as his solution. I would have gone much the same way last year had I not had a friend point me in the right direction of what socialism really was. There's no groups agitating in these communities, and if this is the kind of stuff they're producing I can see why many groups, regardless if whether they're some sort of Marxist or anarchist, have trouble getting following here.

I don't know, maybe I don't go gaga over things like this. It's scope is limited.

[Nothing Human Is Alien]

It takes organization, dedication, and hard work to build the type of organization Gloria La Riva helped build.It takes a lot of organization, dedication and hard work to form a soccer league too. What does that have to do with anything?


and you know it was some real rightwing scum tooActually it was Kevin Keating (http://libcom.org/tags/kevin-keating) an "anti-state communist" (or more precisely, he and "various friends"). Though I'm not going to defend his politics.


For what its worth, sheriff or district attorney is the absolute best position I can think of a socialist running for.:laugh:

That sounds about right. At least you admit your intentions up front. I've heard of State Department Socialism. Is this State Bar Socialism?

[Nothing Human Is Alien]

My point was compared to situations like those, do ideological differences between WWP and their rivals really matter to them?When a picket line is broken by police, does it matter to the striking workers whether the cops are under the command of a "socialist" or not?


I don't know, maybe I don't go gaga over things like this. It's scope is limited.

I think it accomplished what it set out to do (expose a "Socialist For Sheriff") pretty well.

[Red Commissar]

When a picket line is broken by police, does it matter to the striking workers whether the cops are under the command of a "socialist" or not?



I think it accomplished what it set out to do (expose a "Socialist For Sheriff") pretty well.

Like Riva had a snowball chance in hell being elected anyways. My point isn't defending Riva or her campaign, so you can stop there.

My question- what is the real effectiveness of this? Really it just seems it'll appeal to people who already know this. The fact this is discussed on revleft or posted on infoshop shows this.

I suppose it's unthinkable if I question the infallible nature of the mindset behind it.

[Widerstand]

Like Riva had a snowball chance in hell being elected anyways. My point isn't defending Riva or her campaign, so you can stop there.

My question- what is the real effectiveness of this? Really it just seems it'll appeal to people who already know this. The fact this is discussed on revleft or posted on infoshop shows this.

I suppose it's unthinkable if I question the infallible nature of the mindset behind it.

It depends. Personally I wouldn't want to work together with cops for a host of other reasons, I think many people think the same. In some organizations, groups and locations you'd get thrown out if you were a cop.

[Q]

In some organizations, groups and locations you'd get thrown out if you were a cop.

If you want Tahrir Square a "location", then yeah.

[Widerstand]

If you want Tahrir Square a "location", then yeah.

How about every squatted, autonomous or otherwise leftist place?

[Red Commissar]

It depends. Personally I wouldn't want to work together with cops for a host of other reasons, I think many people think the same. In some organizations, groups and locations you'd get thrown out if you were a cop.

Where did I say that we should work together with cops? I'm just thinking that there are better places to agitate (and pour resources into, for that matter) than between two groups, whose influence on the whole is negligible, taking criticisms at each other. Enough of this and it makes a movement seem even more impotent.

[Q]

How about every squatted, autonomous or otherwise leftist place?

My point being that it is a rather well established working class practice to defend oneself against state forces. What squatters do is their business.

[Widerstand]

Where did I say that we should work together with cops? I'm just thinking that there are better places to agitate (and pour resources into, for that matter) than between two groups, whose influence on the whole is negligible, taking criticisms at each other. Enough of this and it makes a movement seem even more impotent.

But it might be of importance to other political individuals or groups. I for one don't know where it was distributed, do you?


My point being that it is a rather well established working class practice to defend oneself against state forces. What squatters do is their business.

aha

[Nothing Human Is Alien]

Where did I say that we should work together with cops? I'm just thinking that there are better places to agitate (and pour resources into, for that matter) than between two groups, whose influence on the whole is negligible, taking criticisms at each other. Enough of this and it makes a movement seem even more impotent.

Again this assumes they are all a part of the same "movement."

[Red Commissar]

Again this assumes they are all a part of the same "movement."

Well, it's either that or thousands of different small, irrelevant groups people don't give a damn about. Who apparently see it more worthwhile to fight amongst themselves and in time lose any meaningful connection to the working class they all claim to help and/or represent.

Maybe I'm not as narrow-minded, but these people, regardless of their methods, all come from the same experience and working class roots. Again I question what purpose propaganda like this serves beyond being an affirmation of what their people know.

This piece is from freaking 1994 and it's hardly different from the material that preceded it or is being done now. I mean the more this is done the more these groups become rendered more obsolete and irrelevant to the working class, if they seem to be more occupied fighting each other rather than paying attention to them. People aren't born with political inclinations, the environment helps shapes those. Propaganda should be a means to agitate and show anarchism, show socialism, show Marxism, w/e and how it is relevant. When it turns into this, is it really all that different from the stuff mainstream political groups already lodge at each other?

[TC]

Considering that if she did this for a few weeks she'd be pretty likely fired (unless sheriffs or DAs in the US have some sort of absolute authority about law enforcement), it's very doubtful she'd do it at all.


An elected sheriff or elected district attorney is an elected political official - they cannot be fired and they have discretion over what crimes they pursue and enforce. They are only removed through impeachment which is extremely difficult or failure to be reelected.

Obviously the situation would be entirely different if she was seeking employment at will as a police deputy or assistant district attorney.

Keep in mind that "district attorney" and "sheriff" are frequently used as titles for either high ranked elected officials or at will employees or appointed officials. A "sheriff" could be a beat cop, or an appointed police commissioner, or an elected police commissioner - the beat cop is an employee who can be fired, the appointed police commissioner can be asked to resign and probably removed by whomever appointed him/her, but an elected police commissioner, as an elected official, is answerable to an electorate not superior government officials.

[TC]

Like Riva had a snowball chance in hell being elected anyways. My point isn't defending Riva or her campaign, so you can stop there.

Right, the WWP and PSL use electoral politics not in an effort to win elections but in an effort to use electoral campaigns as a forum to criticize existing and proposed government practices - in this case a forum to criticize police. I'm not sure if NHIA just doesn't get it or he just doesn't care. Obviously Gloria La Riva would never police people for capital.

[TC]

Again this assumes they are all a part of the same "movement."


Thats right. La Riva is part of the leftist movement that agitates, organizes, fights on many fronts in the streets, in public, in workplaces - like it or not the PSL and previously the WWP are/were at the very forefront of the hard left political struggle in America. Her detractors here don't have a movement at all they have petty complaints, tiny disconnected affinity groups, and the internet.

So no, they aren't in the same movement - the petty sectarians aren't moving towards anything so they aren't in a "movement" (they are to make a word up, in a stillment or a lazyment :D ).

[StalinFanboy]

I know the guy who made this

he's pretty tight

[southernmissfan]

Maybe this is off topic, but what if she had won? What if any socialist who was running for local office managed to win? What then? Hell, there are a lot of offices on the state and local level in a lot of places people run unopposed in the election. I bet it's not completely unrealistic to think it could happen one day.

[synthesis]

For what its worth, sheriff or district attorney is the absolute best position I can think of a socialist running for... to run for sheriff or DA would actually strike a blow to the state itself by hijacking part of the state coercive apparatus and causing it to no longer function.

:blink:

If a socialist wins an election for sheriff or DA, something's already either very wrong or very right, and either way it won't make a difference.

[Wanted Man]

I know the guy who made this

he's pretty tight

Same guy who defaced some monument to the Abe Lincoln Brigade, right? Because, y'know, all those working-class guys who went to fight fascism were actually hardcore Stalinist killers.

Yeah sounds like a standup guy.

[Jimmie Higgins]

I'd assume that I'd have strong political disagreements with this person but this is really a useless thread. I mean some sectarian thing about some activist I don't know about from 15+ years ago? Jesus, what's the point other than divisiveness?

While the satire is kind of funny, I have no idea what this is in reference to, so it is totally useless. Rather than mocking this one activist, maybe the people who made this flier could have spend their time trying to organize something more effectively to win people away from what I assume is, in their view (and maybe mine to, but I can't tell what exactly the gripe is from this flier) a shitty way this activist was organizing things. But as a stand-alone, this flier has all the relevance of the pre-facbook bullying that happened in my high school with people posting anonymous xeroxed notes all over the school about someone being a "slut" or a bad friend or whatever.

[Nothing Human Is Alien]

Obviously Gloria La Riva would never police people for capital.Right, 'cause no leftists has ever done that in history; and the Marcyites don't have a history of supporting people who do (like their "anti-imperialist" support of Ahmadinejad for example, while his goons were cracking protester's heads in). :rolleyes:


Thats right. La Riva is part of the leftist movement that agitates, organizes, fights on many fronts in the streets, in public, in workplaces - like it or not the PSL and previously the WWP are/were at the very forefront of the hard left political struggle in America.That's like saying their collection of molecules is bigger than everyone else. They're all insignificant.

Activism isn't a measure of anything but activism itself. Lots of people are activists.

Remember what DRUM said, "One Class-Conscious Worker Is Worth A Thousand Students."

And "left" and "right" are political, not class, categories. All it takes to be a part of "the left" is to agree with some political positions. So anyone can belong. And it means little. "The hard left" has nothing to do with the actual struggle of the working class to emancipate itself.

And in fact, it's traditionally got in the way of that when it's been attempted.

So no, we're not a part of the same "movement." And expect people to expose the attempts of leftists to become the new bosses when they claim to do so in the name of the class, when they're not ignoring them all together.


Maybe this is off topic, but what if she had won? What if any socialist who was running for local office managed to win? What then? Hell, there are a lot of offices on the state and local level in a lot of places people run unopposed in the election. I bet it's not completely unrealistic to think it could happen one day. It has happened, plenty of times. And it leads to the same thing every time.

"The character of a bourgeois government isn’t determined by the personal character of its members, but by its organic function in bourgeois society. The government of the modern state is essentially an organization of class domination, the regular functioning of which is one of the conditions of existence of the class state. With the entry of a socialist into the government, and class domination continuing to exist, the bourgeois government doesn’t transform itself into a socialist government, but a socialist transforms himself into a bourgeois minister." - Luxembourg

"Suppose I [as an elected union official] entered the toilet and found a worker asleep. I could ignore him, or I could tap him on the shoulder and tell him that if he were caught there was no way I could protect his job. How was this fundamentally different from the role of a conservative union representative? I am enforcing the contract and enforcing the company rules." - Martin Glaberman


Well, it's either that or thousands of different small, irrelevant groups people don't give a damn about. Who apparently see it more worthwhile to fight amongst themselves and in time lose any meaningful connection to the working class they all claim to help and/or represent. I don't think people who want to be a part of the state and people who want to smash the state are in the same "movement." I don't think people that would send workers off to die in nationalist wars and those who seek to abolish nationalism are in the same "movement." I don't think people who want to command workers and the workers themselves are in the same "movement."

When those people try to further their interests in the name of the working class, I don't think there's anything wrong with exposing them for what they are; especially when it's entertaining.


Maybe I'm not as narrow-minded, but these people, regardless of their methods, all come from the same experience and working class roots. Have you ever been around the left? Are you serious suggesting that all leftists come from "working class roots?"


I mean some sectarian thing about some activist I don't know about from 15+ years ago? Sectarianism is putting the interests of your sect above those of the working class. I don't see the promotion of any sects in this poster, only the criticism of an existing one.

And whether or not you personally know her is irrelevant, don't you think? She's a leader of the PSL (and was a leading member of the WWP it split from at the time). She's was running for sheriff in an election at the time, so anyone interested in that election probably knew her name. She ran for president last election, was president of a union local and is running for congress now. She's trying her best to be known.

She claims to act on behalf of the working class. As I said above, pointing out that she doesn't is quite alright.

Did it "accomplish anything?"

At best it prompted someone to consider the underlying issues, at worst it evoked laughter. No better than political graffiti, no worse than comedic graffiti.

That's all.

[StalinFanboy]

:crying:.

yup

[Jimmie Higgins]

Sectarianism is putting the interests of your sect above those of the working class. I don't see the promotion of any sects in this poster, only the criticism of an existing one.This flier is sectarianism because the makers of the flier felt that tearing down activists they didn't like and scoring some ideological points was more important than trying to build a more effective alternative.


And whether or not you personally know her is irrelevant, don't you think? She's a leader of the PSL (and was a leading member of the WWP it split from at the time). She's was running for sheriff in an election at the time, so anyone interested in that election probably knew her name. She ran for president last election, was president of a union local and is running for congress now. She's trying her best to be known. Well good job because I never knew any of this until you posted this flier.

But seriously, who gives a fuck. If you think that her running for congress is a shit strategy, then fine, don't give her a donation, join her group, or phone bank for her campaign. Seriously, the masses are not being deceived by some obscure leftist with bad politics or tactics or an under the radar campaign. There are much much bigger fish to fry - the Democrats would be a good place to start.

Anyway, I don't find this flier relevant and I don't know why you posted it. If it's the PSL you have a political bone with, then make it political. IMO, their inconstancy on Iran's uprising vs. Egypt is a much more political and productive debate to have.

[redasheville]

I can't find anything about La Riva running for SF Sheriff on the web. Can somebody independently confirm (i.e. with a source) that she did?

[Rusty Shackleford]

all im going to say is that this is like the anti-PSL propaganda that was on indymedia sites before the 2010 conference.

at the conference, i looked hard to find a poster that was on the internet. and, i saw none. this kind of smearing(if you could call it that) obviously seems to only go as far as a few websites or someones printer.

[Nothing Human Is Alien]

I can't find anything about La Riva running for SF Sheriff on the web. Can somebody independently confirm (i.e. with a source) that she did?

She was actually running for the position of top state executive at the time (Governor of California). The post/er was satirical.

[manic expression]

She was actually running for the position of top state executive at the time (Governor of California). The post/er was satirical.
Ah, so in other words, you're a liar. Good to know.

[TC]

Poster that appeared in San Francisco in 1994 when Gloria La Riva -- then a member of the WWP, now a leading member of the PSL -- ran for sheriff.



She was actually running for the position of top state executive at the time (Governor of California).


Oh,

I see,

So your 'argument' against La Riva was based on 100% libel you created.

Nice.

How much credibility should we give factual claims you make on this forum or elsewhere from now on?

[Nothing Human Is Alien]

Yea, I was mistaken in the position she ran for. You'll notice I stated as much when I realized it.

I don't think it matters much if she was running for the executive who oversees the chief who oversees cops rather than the chief of cops though. The point remains the same. And the satire remains as biting.


How much credibility should we give factual claims you make on this forum or elsewhere from now on? As much as you normally would. Unless you somehow think correcting factual errors of your own volition is actually a sign of dishonesty.

[The Red Next Door]

If someone made a poster of an Anarchist Federation leader going deep down on a 11 year old boy in a hot tub. You guys will be having a fucking rage fit and smash some of our offices and the offices of other ML groups up.

[gorillafuck]

So should criticism of leftists who wanna be top cop be avoided in the name of unity? Unity around what, by who? What do people who want to smash the state have in common with people who aspire to be police commanders?It's kind of funny that whoever made this even did it.

I don't give a shit about Gloria La Riva but I give even less of a shit about taking her down or the people that make flyers for that goal. If I saw someone putting up that poster I would make fun of them for wasting their time doing something dumb like that.

[Nothing Human Is Alien]

If someone made a poster of an Anarchist Federation leader going deep down on a 11 year old boy in a hot tub. You guys will be having a fucking rage fit and smash some of our offices and the offices of other ML groups up.

1. I don't know how those two things are related in any shape or form. The parody here was based on an attempt by a leftist (who is/was apparently good at policing protests) to get elected to an executive position in the capitalist state.

2. I don't know who "you guys" are. I don't have anything to do with the person who made the poster, and I stated here that I won't defend his politics.

3. I've only been to a PSL office once in my life. It was enough to make me never want to return, under any circumstances.

:)

[The Red Next Door]

1. I don't know how those two things are related in any shape or form. The parody here was based on an attempt by a leftist (who is/was apparently good at policing protests) to get elected to an executive position in the capitalist state.

2. I don't know who "you guys" are. I don't have anything to do with the person who made the poster, and I stated here that I won't defend his politics.

3. I've only been to a PSL office once in my life. It was enough to make me never want to return, under any circumstances.

:)


I was trying to say, You guys would not like it. If someone made a stupid poster of your party like that, I want my 62 point back.

I can say the same thing about, someone who is parodying the AF by making a poster of them. Going deep down with a kid in a hot tub.


I am not trying to called you guys pedos, but the claim is everywhere on the net.

[gorillafuck]

TRND, the claim that WWP are trying to police the working class isn't near as absurd as claiming that AF is somehow a pedophile organization. And no, it's not all over the net that AF is a pedophile organization. That claim has never been made anywhere.

Claiming AF is a pedophile organization would be closer in ridiculousness to claiming that WWP has it's roots in Murder Inc.

[Kassad]

So three pages in and all I've learned from this thread is that Nothing Human is Alien is still a dipshit. Anything else I should be picking up?

[gorillafuck]

This is only a two page thread.

40ppp for life.

[Kassad]

This is only a two page thread.

40ppp for life.

I'm pretty sure my settings show less posts per page, thus why mine is three.

[Nothing Human Is Alien]

I was trying to say, You guys would not like it. If someone made a stupid poster of your party like that, I want my 62 point back.

I can say the same thing about, someone who is parodying the AF by making a poster of them. Going deep down with a kid in a hot tub.


I am not trying to called you guys pedos, but the claim is everywhere on the net.

I still don't know who "you guys" are.

[redasheville]

Yea, I was mistaken in the position she ran for. You'll notice I stated as much when I realized it.

I don't think it matters much if she was running for the executive who oversees the chief who oversees cops rather than the chief of cops though. The point remains the same. And the satire remains as biting.

As much as you normally would. Unless you somehow think correcting factual errors of your own volition is actually a sign of dishonesty.

It is dishonest to make accusations about a left wing activist that you just assumed to be true (based on a satirical poster, no less!) without trying to independently verify it.

I was 99.9% sure that La Riva never ran for sheriff. Since SF city and county have identical borders the only role the SF sheriff has is court related stuff. I have literally never seen a campaign poster for SF sheriff from anyone, ever.

[TC]

I'm pretty sure my settings show less posts per page, thus why mine is three.

...Its three pages for me too and I'm using forum default settings.

[Nothing Human Is Alien]

It is dishonest to make accusations about a left wing activist that you just assumed to be true (based on a satirical poster, no less!) without trying to independently verify it.

I was 99.9% sure that La Riva never ran for sheriff. Since SF city and county have identical borders the only role the SF sheriff has is court related stuff. I have literally never seen a campaign poster for SF sheriff from anyone, ever. 1. I don't see a fundamental difference between running for governor or sheriff.

2. It was a parody.

3. I couldn't be bothered to sift through her extensive history of electoral adventures before posting a parody poster from two decades ago.

4. I corrected the mistake on my own when I realized I had made it.

5. People here argued in support of running for sheriff on principle. That remains the case whether or not she ran in particular.

[redasheville]

"3. I couldn't be bothered to sift through her extensive history of electoral adventures before posting a parody poster from two decades ago."

That much is clear.

[synthesis]

So your 'argument' against La Riva was based on 100% libel you created.


Ah, so in other words, you're a liar. Good to know.

That's a little much.

The poster was satirizing 1. her run for political office and 2. her alleged behavior in regards to activists from other organizations. As with a lot of satire, it was accidentally interpreted literally. "Libel" and "lying," as far as I know, generally entail some sort of prior intent.

Of course, there was a certain value in taking it literally, in that it facilitated a discussion on whether or not a socialist can run for a political office which entails protecting the capitalist state. I'll admit I don't understand how that's even up for discussion, but it's good to get it out there, right?

[bricolage]

Of course, there was a certain value in taking it literally, in that it facilitated a discussion on whether or not a socialist can run for a political office which entails protecting the capitalist state. I'll admit I don't understand how that's even up for discussion, but it's good to get it out there, right?
Yes, I think the main issue here is that self-defined revolutionaries have defended the idea of running for the role of Sheriff, no matter how misleading the original poster may or may not have been.

[manic expression]

Yea, I was mistaken in the position she ran for.
Yea, translation: you were too incompetent to spend fifteen seconds on google or you simply don't care about the facts...ultimately, both are assuredly the case.


if she was running for the executive who oversees the chief who oversees cops rather than the chief of cops though. The point remains the same. And the satire remains as biting.
It's only "biting" because it's shown you to be nothing more than a two-bit fraudster. Exposing yourself for what you are will undoubtedly be your only positive contribution to this, or any topic.

PS. It's entertaining to see some posters try to change the subject after endorsing this bumbling clown of an OP. Let's be clear, this topic was never anything more than a libelous cheap shot against Gloria La Riva and the immense work she's done and continues to do for working-class progress. Have fun blindly scrounging for a warped rationalization of this hit-piece.

[Widerstand]

Yea, translation: you were too incompetent to spend fifteen seconds on google or you simply don't care about the facts...ultimately, both are assuredly the case.


It's only "biting" because it's shown you to be nothing more than a two-bit fraudster. Exposing yourself for what you are will undoubtedly be your only positive contribution to this, or any topic.

PS. It's entertaining to see some posters try to change the subject after endorsing this bumbling clown of an OP. Let's be clear, this topic was never anything more than a libelous cheap shot against Gloria La Riva and the immense work she's done and continues to do for working-class progress. Have fun blindly scrounging for a warped rationalization of this hit-piece.

No, actually you are distorting this topic by making baseless accusations against NHIA (which you, ironically, accuse him of doing).

I also don't see the big deal in her not running for sheriff (in fact TC wrote a somewhat reasonable defense of that). As if running for president/vice-president/governor were any better!

[The Garbage Disposal Unit]

Cops, politicians: who cares? The distinction seems to matter most to people who don't want a world without either.

A pig is a pig . . . (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tzZabo18mhA)
(http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tzZabo18mhA%5B/URL)

[synthesis]

Yea, translation: you were too incompetent to spend fifteen seconds on google or you simply don't care about the facts...ultimately, both are assuredly the case.


It's only "biting" because it's shown you to be nothing more than a two-bit fraudster. Exposing yourself for what you are will undoubtedly be your only positive contribution to this, or any topic.

PS. It's entertaining to see some posters try to change the subject after endorsing this bumbling clown of an OP. Let's be clear, this topic was never anything more than a libelous cheap shot against Gloria La Riva and the immense work she's done and continues to do for working-class progress. Have fun blindly scrounging for a warped rationalization of this hit-piece.

Again, spend a little time on scopes.com and see for yourself how often this happens. An article is posted on something like The Onion and it gets circulated around the Internet because people think it's real. This definitely isn't the first time.

You should also make up your mind as to whether NHIA is a "fraudster" - i.e., he did it on purpose - or "too incompetent to spend fifteen seconds on google" - i.e., he didn't.

Finally, allow me to reemphasize these points:


The poster was satirizing 1. her run for political office and 2. her alleged behavior in regards to activists from other organizations... Of course, there was a certain value in taking it literally, in that it facilitated a discussion on whether or not a socialist can run for a political office which entails protecting the capitalist state. I'll admit I don't understand how that's even up for discussion, but it's good to get it out there, right?

[manic expression]

It's cute that you now want to make this some sort of edifying and intellectual discussion on electoral campaigns in revolutionary politics. It really is. We can do that and we have, but trying to do so on the back of this libel is nonsense. Try posting a thread on the subject that's not based on a hit-piece and maybe something positive will come of it...like oh, I don't know, an honest discourse on why the PSL does run for certain office.

And synthesis, as I alluded to, NHIA is either a liar or a complete idiot. Judging by past behavior, it's most likely a combination of both. You should probably make up your mind as to why you're defending a clown.

[The Red Next Door]

Yea, translation: you were too incompetent to spend fifteen seconds on google or you simply don't care about the facts...ultimately, both are assuredly the case.


It's only "biting" because it's shown you to be nothing more than a two-bit fraudster. Exposing yourself for what you are will undoubtedly be your only positive contribution to this, or any topic.

PS. It's entertaining to see some posters try to change the subject after endorsing this bumbling clown of an OP. Let's be clear, this topic was never anything more than a libelous cheap shot against Gloria La Riva and the immense work she's done and continues to do for working-class progress. Have fun blindly scrounging for a warped rationalization of this hit-piece.

You have to be patience with them, they are coke up at the moment.

[The Red Next Door]

Also, You people really. Do not Know the lady. She is a very sweet person who will probably buy, you lunch even if you are an anarchist.

[StalinFanboy]

Dunno why a communist is trying to be a state functionary in the first place

[Kassad]

Dunno why a communist is trying to be a state functionary in the first place

I'm contemplating changing the title of this thread to "Dumbass Convention", because that's what some of you have turned this in to. We run in the elections to expose the system as 1) unable to meet revolutionary demands and 2) unable to meet the needs of the working class. Thus, why we make the demands we do, realizing that the capitalist state would never make such concessions. We ran an electoral campaign in Ohio last year, which mobilized dozens of volunteers and saw the creation of a branch in Columbus. Some of the electoral campaigns we've run in New York and California have been some of the most successful campaigns a socialist has run in decades. We don't run to be a "state functionary." We run to promote our party, which has been very successful.

Much more successful than anything the ICC has ever done in terms of recruiting activists and cadres, as well as intervening in the struggle. Much more successful than anything the ICC does in terms of recruiting activists and cadres, as well as intervening in the struggle. Much more successful than anything the ICC will ever do in terms of recruiting activists and cadres, as well as intervening in the struggle.

[Blackscare]

Yes, I think the main issue here is that self-defined revolutionaries have defended the idea of running for the role of Sheriff, no matter how misleading the original poster may or may not have been.

And still you people won't face reality and admit that the PSL was fully aware that running La Riva in that election or in any other would not end in victory. The strategy of running people in elections has more to do with getting the PSL's message out than any strategic goals in actually occupying that office.


In reference to NHIA's comments about us all being irrelevant, I think that there's a huge difference. The PSL is trying to become relevant and be known, while certain sects wallow in irrelevancy and actively try to keep the left as irrelevant as possible by spending their time attacking leftists, rather than (as one poster said), say, the democrats.

[synthesis]

And synthesis, as I alluded to, NHIA is either a liar or a complete idiot. Judging by past behavior, it's most likely a combination of both. You should probably make up your mind as to why you're defending a clown.

Because he started a good discussion, regardless of the veracity of the claim in the poster.


Much more successful than anything the ICC has ever done in terms of recruiting activists and cadres, as well as intervening in the struggle. Much more successful than anything the ICC does in terms of recruiting activists and cadres, as well as intervening in the struggle. Much more successful than anything the ICC will ever do in terms of recruiting activists and cadres, as well as intervening in the struggle.

http://i101.photobucket.com/albums/m47/ellroon/justwilliam_3.jpg

[Blackscare]

http://i101.photobucket.com/albums/m47/ellroon/justwilliam_3.jpg

Imagining you lot as kids like this actually makes me like you more :p

[Widerstand]

I'm contemplating changing the title of this thread to "Dumbass Convention", because that's what some of you have turned this in to. We run in the elections to expose the system as 1) unable to meet revolutionary demands and 2) unable to meet the needs of the working class.

How does running in the elections expose this? What if the PSL did in fact get elected (not that it can happen in America but let's hypothesize since you seem to think this would be a good strategy in general). How would the PSL expose this then?

[The Red Next Door]

How does running in the elections expose this? What if the PSL did in fact get elected (not that it can happen in America but let's hypothesize since you seem to think this would be a good strategy in general). How would the PSL expose this then?

There no reason to do that because it not going to happen period.

[Blackscare]

There no reason to do that because it not going to happen period.

And it's not expected or intended to happen, either.

[bricolage]

We run to promote our party, which has been very successful.
I thought you 'run in the elections to expose the system as 1) unable to meet revolutionary demands and 2) unable to meet the needs of the working class.'?

[Rusty Shackleford]

How does running in the elections expose this? What if the PSL did in fact get elected (not that it can happen in America but let's hypothesize since you seem to think this would be a good strategy in general). How would the PSL expose this then?


Use the position from within the system to expose it even further.
say its a legislative or electoral seat, challenge capitalists on every anti-worker bill there is.

[Widerstand]

Use the position from within the system to expose it even further.
say its a legislative or electoral seat, challenge capitalists on every anti-worker bill there is.

Sounds useful...

[Blackscare]

Sounds useful...

I love how you change the goal posts. It goes from asking how such a thing could expose contradictions in the electoral system, to obfuscating and making sarcastic comments about the "usefulness" of such a tactic while in office (I assume you mean in terms of getting legislation done, which you know is not the point) when the point is made to you.



If you disagree, fine, but at least be consistent as to why.

[Rusty Shackleford]

Sounds useful...
class war is not just about organizing workers and oppressed people(though it is the most important part)
there is also the battle over information.

to have such a position forces a revolutionary perspective into national news media by having to cover the issue.

[Amphictyonis]

For what its worth, sheriff or district attorney is the absolute best position I can think of a socialist running for. A socialist sheriff would order the police not to enforce any drug offenses, property offenses, immigration offenses, or status crimes, and use the force exclusively against violent crime and white collar financial crimes.

San Fransisco already somewhat did that under Kamila Harris and the broader prop 13 in CA. Drug offenders were being sent to rehabs in lieu of jails and prisons and the DA's come down hard on violence in San Fransisco. The immigration issue is also a tad more lax than other cities. Having "socialist" cops isnt going to impact much though because it's material conditions that lead people to living miserable lives and under capitalism it's like a game of musical chairs, there can never be full employment so there will always be an "excess" worker population or "reserve army of labor" who ends up in jail or dead in some war after joining the military.

[synthesis]

Imagining you lot as kids like this actually makes me like you more :p

Hey, do what you feel. The picture is literally a result of me doing a Google image search for "nyah, nyah" and scrolling down a little bit. I think it's a pretty fair characterization of the part of his post that I quoted.

[Widerstand]

I love how you change the goal posts. It goes from asking how such a thing could expose contradictions in the electoral system, to obfuscating and making sarcastic comments about the "usefulness" of such a tactic while in office (I assume you mean in terms of getting legislation done, which you know is not the point) when the point is made to you.



If you disagree, fine, but at least be consistent as to why.

:rolleyes:

Your idea is that when a leftist gets into office and tries to pass pro-worker legislation (assuming they really are going to do that), the other parts of the government will prevent that and then people will think "look, the state hates workers", do I get that much right? But don't a lot of people think that the state represent them, so what they'll really think is "no one wants socialism"?

And as far "getting our ideas out", trying to use parliamentary debates to do that is a somewhat questionable means. How many people follow parliamentary debates in the US? How many news sources will present what the leftists say there correctly? (and if you have to bypass them, you can just produce an own newspaper in the first place). I also disagree with the notion that "telling as many people as possible about us" is a good strategy, but that's a different matter altogether.


to have such a position forces a revolutionary perspective into national news media by having to cover the issue.

And national media will not heavily distort these issues, right? Will people even care? From my experience with the German media, opinions change quite fast. One week they absolutely love everything you do, the next week they hate you to the core and wish you'd be deported to the antarctic. Relying on the media is bad, basing your strategy around the media is even worse.

[Os Cangaceiros]

I smirk everytime I see this thread's title. I don't know why I think it's so amusing, but I do.

[Rusty Shackleford]

And national media will not heavily distort these issues, right? Will people even care? From my experience with the German media, opinions change quite fast. One week they absolutely love everything you do, the next week they hate you to the core and wish you'd be deported to the antarctic. Relying on the media is bad, basing your strategy around the media is even worse.

of course they will distort it. beck and co. already do.

has it stopped us? no.

will it stop us? no.

will bourgeois press spin stories on us or any other revolutionary organizaiton or event? yes.

will it stop us or them? no.

is it useful? yes.

[Widerstand]

of course they will distort it. beck and co. already do.

has it stopped us? no.

will it stop us? no.

will bourgeois press spin stories on us or any other revolutionary organizaiton or event? yes.

will it stop us or them? no.

is it useful? yes.

You know the major question has not been asked yet:

Does the media reaction (or anticipated media reaction) influence your tactics or actions? If this is even remotely a "yes", congrats, you've let yourselves become controlled by the establishment.

[Rusty Shackleford]

not really, no.

even if we dont get media attention at or in reaction to events, we still meet people who are politically and class conscious, which is the real goal. media attention only makes it easier to meet class conscious people.

also, major events are not all the party does.

but saying that wanting attention is somehow making us controlled by the media is a leap of logic.

the whole purpose of action is attention to the cause the action is being done for.

propaganda of the deed is a perfect example.

[Widerstand]

not really, no.

even if we dont get media attention at or in reaction to events, we still meet people who are politically and class conscious, which is the real goal. media attention only makes it easier to meet class conscious people.

also, major events are not all the party does.

but saying that wanting attention is somehow making us controlled by the media is a leap of logic.

the whole purpose of action is attention to the cause the action is being done for.

propaganda of the deed is a perfect example.

Well I have to take your word for it, I don't know the innerworkings of the PSL :lol:

But yes, propaganda of the deed is a perfect example of how the media reaction is controlling leftist groups. It happens on a regular basis in Germany that those leftist groups who want to "get their ideas out" and "reach the populace" continuously distance themselves from, denounce and attack militant comrades engaging in property destruction, because they fear that the bad media portrayal of those actions will reflect upon them. They go as far as urge people to stop those actions, or even adopt media jargon when talking about them.

[Rusty Shackleford]

im not really explaining the inner workings of the PSL. its sort of a fusion of the PSL's view and my view. im in one of the far flung areas where i only get occasional contact with party work so im not the one to go to to ask questions about the PSL.


that reminds me, i gotta get my ass in gear and do more work



also there are other, even better reasons for not supporting provocateurs in certain situations.

one of them being people who are new to the cause, who happen to get gassed or arrested for nothing, will possibly be turned away.

[StalinFanboy]

also there are other, even better reasons for not supporting provocateurs in certain situations.

one of them being people who are new to the cause, who happen to get gassed or arrested for nothing, will possibly be turned away.

Maybe in movements that are based around single issues and are lead by activists, but when people actually rise up, getting arrested or gassed is generally not an issue.

[Rusty Shackleford]

Maybe in movements that are based around single issues and are lead by activists, but when people actually rise up, getting arrested or gassed is generally not an issue.


yeah, then its not an issue.

single issue events are a good way to meet people and to introduce them to activism, class consciousness, and also to help make people into leaders and organizers for whenever uprisings happen.

[StalinFanboy]

conditions produce consciousness. its not about recruiting or converting people

[gorillafuck]

You have to be patience with them, they are coke up at the moment.As opposed to you, cheering on the police when they are rounding up drug users and beating the motherfucking shit out of them. Go get those lumpen scum, boys in blue!

[gorillafuck]

conditions produce consciousness. its not about recruiting or converting peopleConditions create discontent, it's foolish to think that ideological struggles don't occur when massive discontent happens. If there's a country that's on the brink of revolution, and say Islamists are far more established and popular than socialists, Islamists are going to come out on top (I used that example because that's what happened in Iran).

[The Red Next Door]

As opposed to you, cheering on the police when they are rounding up drug users and beating the motherfucking shit out of them. Go get those lumpen scum, boys in blue!

Fuck the Police, I support community self action.

[gorillafuck]

Fuck the Police, I support community self action.Oh, so you oppose the drug war? My bad, I thought you were against ending it.

[The Red Next Door]

conditions produce consciousness. its not about recruiting or converting people


You should not be talking and telling people, they only do this and that. When I never seen Left com do shit. here in the US. I only see the anarchists who have respect for instead you bastards, and etc.

[The Red Next Door]

Oh, so you oppose the drug war? My bad, I thought you were against ending it.

Just because I am against crack dealers, does not mean i am against the junkies and consider them to be scum.

What you do not understand, when we say hence DRUG DEALERS. Did i say junkie, no, I did not.

Why do you assume just because we are anti drug ( marijuana is not a drug, it an herb that have medical benefits) that we believe that junkies are scum.

They are not scum, they are victims, and anyone who think they are scum, can go to hell, because the only reason why people do drug to escape the harsh realities of capitalism.

May i tell, you when you are buying drugs from drug dealers, you are funding the CIA and corrupt governments like the one in colombia. who the drug dealers might be working with.

You should be anti drug on the basis, that you are probably funding the capitalist war on drug, by buying drugs from people who, again. Might be connected with the CIA and corrupt bourgeoise government and agencies.

[StalinFanboy]

Much more successful than anything the ICC has ever done in terms of recruiting activists and cadres, as well as intervening in the struggle. Much more successful than anything the ICC does in terms of recruiting activists and cadres, as well as intervening in the struggle. Much more successful than anything the ICC will ever do in terms of recruiting activists and cadres, as well as intervening in the struggle.

I don't care about recruiting activists or leading single issue campaigns so i dont really give a shit about your "successes."

try again

[The Red Next Door]

I don't care about recruiting activists or leading single issue campaigns so i dont really give a shit about your "successes."

try again


Our campaigns are Multi Issue, for your information. You are just jealous because you pot head crackers. Can't do shit.

[StalinFanboy]

You should not be talking and telling people, they only do this and that. When I never seen Left com do shit. here in the US. I only see the anarchists who have respect for instead you bastards, and etc.

It's cool. I'm not trying to get the respect of activists.

[StalinFanboy]

Our campaigns are Multi Issue, for your information. You are just jealous because you pot head crackers. Can't do shit.

Actually, the group of people I have been involved with for a bout the last year or so has done quite a bit.

[Chambered Word]

Oh look, it's yet another shouting match where the Stalinists equate left communist practice with 'doing nothing'.

[Blackscare]

Oh look, it's yet another shouting match where the Stalinists equate left communist practice with 'doing nothing'.

Oh look, it's another left-com acting holier-than-though in the middle of a shitfest instigated by left-coms.

[Os Cangaceiros]

This thread is shaping up to be another entry in my "RevLeft's Greatest Hits" collection.


marijuana is not a drug, it an herb that have medical benefits

Do you know what a drug is?

[bcbm]

Oh look, it's yet another shouting match where the Stalinists equate left communist practice with 'doing nothing'.

a real insult to those of us whose practice is, in fact, "do nothing"

[Kassad]

I'm sure the International Communist Current has its branches mobilizing in full force to stand with the massive labor happening in Wisconsin and Ohio.

...Wait. Take 27 of Left Communism's lack of any real fighting program.

[The Red Next Door]

Actually, the group of people I have been involved with for a bout the last year or so has done quite a bit.

Well, You need to do MORE!

[Blackscare]

Well, You need to do MORE!

Not to be a dick, but this doesn't help.

[bricolage]

I'm sure the International Communist Current has its branches mobilizing in full force to stand with the massive labor happening in Wisconsin and Ohio.

...Wait. Take 27 of Left Communism's lack of any real fighting program.
I thought they'd admitted pretty openly that their US branch is effectively non-existent. I've no idea what the few members of the ICC in America are doing.
But I'm sure if you want to keep waving your dick around that's cool too.

[The Red Next Door]

Oh look, it's yet another shouting match where the Stalinists equate left communist practice with 'doing nothing'.

Why don't you shut the fuck up. Please, useless you are doing something.

Shut the fuck up.

[bricolage]

Why don't you shut the fuck up. Please, useless you are doing something.
What counts as 'something'?

[StalinFanboy]

What counts as 'something'?

Anything bro.

[Widerstand]

What counts as 'something'?

Getting MP.

[Niccolò Rossi]

Oh look, it's another left-com acting holier-than-though in the middle of a shitfest instigated by left-coms.

Well just as a matter of clarification, Chambered Word is a member of Socialist Alternative, the larger of the two Australian cliffite groups...

But I mean don't let facts get in the way of making cheap jabs.

Nic.

[Niccolò Rossi]

You are just jealous because you pot head crackers. Can't do shit.

How old are you?

Nic.

[Chambered Word]

Oh look, it's another left-com acting holier-than-though in the middle of a shitfest instigated by left-coms.

Nic hit the nail on the head with this one. I might not totally agree with leftcom positions, although I'm remaining open-minded, but I don't appreciate the Marcyite trolling in this thread more than anyone else.


Nice contribution, dipshit.

Thanks, Kassad. Coming from the same person who gave me a verbal warning quite some time ago for advising S. Artesian not to bother arguing with your buddy manic expression due to his consistent ability to dance around points, this really means a lot to me. :(


Why don't you shut the fuck up. Please, useless you are doing something.

Shut the fuck up.

I am actively involved with a group whose practice probably has more in common with the PSL than the ICC, so I suggest you think before using the keyboard next time you get into a debate.

[Stormy Petrel]

I had just left San Francisco right before this poster was pasted up around town. By that time the poster's authors, the group around the journal The Poor, The Bad and The Angry, had lost one of it's 3 members and the joke I heard from a distance was that it was reduced to The Bad and The Angry to carry on.

The poster was less parody -- because most people in San Francisco only vaguely knew/know who Gloria La Riva was/is -- and more the mean-spirited act of a micro ultra-left sect that was degenerating. I believe that it was no coincidence that the target was a working class Latina woman. That was to prove that the creators didn't give a fuck about PC. And from what I heard, yes, the creators were The Bad and The Angry (henceforth B&A).

Some of the inspiration was the rumor that B&A had been spreading that claimed that La Riva had snitched on anarchists during a militant protest against the Gulf War in January 1991. Someone had thrown a brick through a massive plate glass window at a bank in the Financial District and while the brick thrower got away, some anarchists were fingered and arrested. I knew these people and this much is true. I've never heard it substantiated that it was La Riva or someone from WWP that did the snitching. But I did see WWP cadre who worked as liaisons with the police at these protests.

When I received a copy of the poster in the original post in this thread, my reaction was that it was completely ill-advised. I thought, why attack fellow working class militants for having different perspectives? I'll grant that those differences are vast, even antagonistic, but it struck me that this was a vestige of the pro-Situationist politics of the 1970s, where one's main practice is attacking everyone you disagree with, painting them with the broad brush as counter-revolutionaries.

Personally, I reserve my scorn for true class enemies, like bosses, the bourgeiosie, politicians, and capitalists. I remember reading something by Stan Weir, who talked about working on bridge of a ship as a sailor during Word War II and how older militants advised him to be alert during the loneliness of late night shifts where it's too easy to slip up and tell an officer some sensitive information in conversation. Anything carelessly shared with a class enemy is an act of "stoolpigeonry." Conversely, Weir related how there are times in the class war when personal information about our class enemies can be used most judiciously and effectively. I don't see the point of spending large amounts of energy to engage in smear campaigns against working class political rivals. Differences aside, that's the act of a scab. Especially since San Francisco hosts many of the robber barons who are the financiers of Silicon Valley. And these scum also design and build most of the high-tech weapons of mass destruction that facilitate U.S imperial ambitions, as well as arming waring thugs across the globe.

And a point of clarification: the Sheriff of the City and County of San Francisco administers the jail system and enforces warrants. The current sheriff has been in office for 30 years and he's a well-liked liberal. Which puts him, at times, at cross purposes with the Chief of Police. To me, class enemies all. And for further clarification, I agree with labor historian Alan Dawley when he said "The ballot box is the coffin of class consciousness."

To this day, many people in San Francisco think B&A are some kind of anti-working class anarcho-communist freaks -- who spend most of their waking hours in pitbull attack mode. I don't think B&A do anything together anymore, but "A" seems like a professional enemy-maker. A comrade put it this way: he not only burns all his bridges, but he goes back and burns them again a second time for good measure. Is this the practice of a revolutionary?

Perhaps it's symptomatic of the massive flaws of ultra-left/left communists in the U.S. It seems like their practice never goes beyond school boy pranks and manifesto-type screeds, despite the history of brutal racism and genocidal imperial conquest that leave racial and gender rifts that undermine nearly all class-based forms of struggle here. A poster about a working class Latina woman militant, despite whatever political differences, does nothing to tackle those obstacles and help to unify workers so that we can struggle as a class for ourselves -- and live up to our potential as the gravediggers of class society and capitalism.