isreali violence/racism/oppression of Palestine

[freepalestine]

a start..


JERUSALEM
Group of extremist Jewish settlers set a one hundred year old Christian church on fire in Jerusalem causing substantial damage to its first floor.

Mr Zackaria Al-Mashriqi, a leader in the church, denounced in a press release the “sinful crime” that targets destabilizing relations among religions and inciting strife in addition to expelling Palestinians Christians from the holy city through such repeated attacks on citizens and their property.

He added that the church was built in Jerusalem in 1897, and housed the Palestinian Bible College until 1948, when parishioners were pushed out by Jewish armed gangs during the violence accompanying the creation of the state of Israel.

He said that right-wing Israeli settlers broke a number of windows of the two-storey church and hurled Molotov cocktails inside it completely burning the first floor.
Mr Mashriqi appealed for urgent intervention to protect the holy places in Jerusalem and called on and condemn the attack.

The world community must shoulder its responsibility toward protecting the holy shrines and Palestinians in the city, he said, calling for shunning violence and for dialog among religions.

http://i55.tinypic.com/2jb1e9l.jpg


http://i54.tinypic.com/nl3j2h.jpg


a1-zM0m1rNI

[Dimentio]

In before ComradeMan writes something idiotic about how "horribly oppressed" the Christian Palestinians are by the Muslims...

[ComradeMan]

In before ComradeMan writes something idiotic about how "horribly oppressed" the Christian Palestinians are by the Muslims...

You have the nerve to accuse others of trolling? :laugh:

I don't support religious fanatics nor acts of religious intollerance WHEREVER it comes from.

So please, keep your strawmen.

However, "Group of extremist Jewish settlers" is I believe the wording used in the article- now, was this done with the backing of the Israeli State?

In another similar instant when settlers attacked and burnt a mosque in the West Bank it was condemned by the Israeli government, namely, Ehud Barak.
http://s1.zetaboards.com/anthroscape/topic/2641402/1/

Here is also a more positive article of news too...

October 5, 2010.

http://www.haaretz.com/news/national/settlers-replace-korans-burnt-in-west-bank-mosque-attack-1.317361

Settlers who in "solidarity with their Palestinian neighbours" replaced burnt copies of the Holy Qu'ran that had been destroyed in an arson attack presumed to be by extremist settlers.

[Bud Struggle]

Yea, these are Fascist crazies.

For the most part the Israelis like the Christians because they bring in lots of tourist revenue and the Born Agains in the United States are major supporters of the pro Israeli policies.

I wonder if this will get any play in the American new media.

[ComradeMan]

Yea, these are Fascist crazies.

For the most part the Israelis like the Christians because they bring in lots of tourist revenue and the Born Agains in the United States are major supporters of the pro Israeli policies.

I wonder if this will get any play in the American new media.

Yeah, it would be like someone posting about the English Defence League's attacks on mosques and saying down with the British state- implying that the extremists are synonymous with the government of the said country. When the christians were being chased out of Gaza and churches were being ransacked, of course, I did not for one moment ever think- ah, ergo all Palestinians are de facto extremist islamists.

[Palingenisis]

I used to work with a Palestinian Eastern Orthodox Christian who supported Hamas.

[ComradeMan]

lol.zionist parroted propaganda.you'll say next you arent a zionist.
palestinian christians died in the isreali massacre on gaza.
stop believing your own lies.its offensive

You see, here we go again. You deny anything unpleasant that happens on the "other" side, that I was not even using as an argument against Palestinians either- rather stating why I WOULDN'T- and bring it back to something Israel did. The oppression of Palestinian Christians by fellow Palestinians is an issue in its own right too and if every time the subject is broached all you do is fire off about something Israel or settlers did it just goes to show you are not prepared to attempt any kind of objective discussion on the matter. Of course, unlike YOU, I don't go around looking for every last example of fanaticism, anti-semitism, religious intollerance etc etc connected to Palestinians and then posting it here as some kind of argument against Palestinians in general. ;)

What about the "good settlers" who replaced the Qu'rans for example? No mention of them because it doesn't suit your agenda.

[Die Rote Fahne]

Yeah, it would be like someone posting about the English Defence League's attacks on mosques and saying down with the British state- implying that the extremists are synonymous with the government of the said country. When the christians were being chased out of Gaza and churches were being ransacked, of course, I did not for one moment ever think- ah, ergo all Palestinians are de facto extremist islamists.


But the EDL analogy is not applicabale. It would be if the UK gov was fascist.

Zionism is what the state openly supports, the group were zionists. I have no doubt that the state was fine with the actions.

[Dimentio]

Yeah, it would be like someone posting about the English Defence League's attacks on mosques and saying down with the British state- implying that the extremists are synonymous with the government of the said country. When the christians were being chased out of Gaza and churches were being ransacked, of course, I did not for one moment ever think- ah, ergo all Palestinians are de facto extremist islamists.

You are incredibly thick sometimes.

The attack on the Mosque is not a reason to dismantle the Israeli state. The main reason to dismantle the Israeli state is that it is for one group exclusively.

If countries like Austria would define, in their constitution, their country as "Ethnic German", there would be worldwide boycotts, even if nothing worse happened than Non-ethnic Germans not having to do military service.

It is not antisemitism to attack ethnocracy.

[Palingenisis]

You are incredibly thick sometimes.


I dont like ComradeMan, but I disagree with you that he is thick.

[Dean]

Can we not have a new thread on Israel every day? I see at least two other threads that this could be merged with.

[Crimson Commissar]

We could just have a single OI thread for all Israel/Palestine discussion. Would get very crowded though..

[ComradeMan]

You are incredibly thick sometimes.

The attack on the Mosque is not a reason to dismantle the Israeli state. The main reason to dismantle the Israeli state is that it is for one group exclusively.

If countries like Austria would define, in their constitution, their country as "Ethnic German", there would be worldwide boycotts, even if nothing worse happened than Non-ethnic Germans not having to do military service.

It is not antisemitism to attack ethnocracy.


You know what? I don't care what the disinegnuous anti-this and that camp thinks whatsoever. The only perosn who is being "thick" is you.

Why not dismantle the Swedish state which has oppressed the Sami people and made good money selling weapons to the Nazis during the Holocaust?
:thumbup1:

[Die Rote Fahne]

You know what? I don't care what you disinegnuous anti-this and that chmucks think whatsoever. The only perosn who is thick is you.

Why not dismantle the Swedish state which has oppressed the Sami
people and made good money selling weapons to the Nazis during the Holocaust?
:thumbup1:

Cause comparing the Sami's in Sweden to the Palestinians in Israel and Palestine is completely equivalent :thumbup1::thumbup1:

[RGacky3]

Why not dismantle the Swedish state which has oppressed the Sami
people and made good money selling weapons to the Nazis during the Holocaust?


Because The sweedish state is not an ethnocentric state ...

No ones arguing dismanteling the ISreali state because of its history, its because of the nature of the state.

(False equivilancy)

[ComradeMan]

Cause comparing the Sami's in Sweden to the Palestinians in Israel and Palestine is completely equivalent :thumbup1::thumbup1:

The point, is that ALL STATES are complicit in varying measures. All states aare technically racist in a sense because they rely on measures of exclusion based on ethnicity or hereditary rights. Most states have their hands dirty when it comes to their ethnic minorities and/or ethnicities that have not been in power.


Let's call for China to be dismantled then....

LOL!!!!

[RGacky3]

The point, is that ALL STATES are complicit in varying measures. All states aare technically racist in a sense because they rely on measures of exclusion based on ethnicity or herediary rights. Most states have their hands dirty when ti comes to their ethnic minorities and/or ethnicities that have not been in power.


Let's call for China to be dismantled then....


No, because China does not have laws that favor a specific ethnicity. Keep in mind Israel was made 60 years ago, so this is'nt some "traditional" state where people have been there for centuries, this is artificial, and there are people who live there who were dispossesed, so no, Isreal is unique, its a JEWISH state, and an artificial one at that.

Why are you trying so hard to defend a Jewish state? Using all sorts of false equivilancies.

[ComradeMan]

No, because China does not have laws that favor a specific ethnicity. Keep in mind Israel was made 60 years ago, so this is'nt some "traditional" state where people have been there for centuries, this is artificial, and there are people who live there who were dispossesed, so no, Isreal is unique, its a JEWISH state, and an artificial one at that.

Why are you trying so hard to defend a Jewish state? Using all sorts of false equivilancies.

Gacky- I am not saying these situations are exactly the same- no two situations are ever going to be exactly the same, but what I am saying is that it is very hypocritical to make Israel the scapegoat all the time when many other nations have dirty hands and there are parallels. Especially seeing as many nations are also complicit with the very regime(s) people here are against.

The treatment of Tibet and the Tibetans? Are there no parallels with Palestinians here?

What about Japan? Japanese citizenship basically relies on you being ethnically Japanese and we'll forget about the oppression of the Ainu people.

Not even at the height of apartheid in South Africa did I recall anyone calling on South Africa to be dismantled nor has the black majority government in South Africa attempted to do this since coming to power.

You also have to see Israel in the context of its whole raison d'etre. Centuries of persecution culminating in the Holocaust and exacerbated by the Jewish nakbas and subsequent exodus of Jews from Arabic and Islamic countries have all led to the situation.

A one state solution/binational solution would not be a Jewish state per se, not at least as I see it, but rather a state for Jews, as well as Muslims, Christians, Druze etc.

[RGacky3]

Gacky- I am not saying these situations are exactly the same- no two situations are ever going to be exactly the same, but what I am saying as that it is very hypocritical to make Israel the scapegoat all the time when many other nations have dirty hands and there are parallels. Especially seeing as many nations are also complicit with the very regime(s) people here are against.

The treatment of Tibet and the Tibetans? Are there no parallels with Palestinians here?


And leftist all over the place bash the treatment of the Tibetians all the time.


What about Japan? Japanese citizenship basically relies on you being ethnically Japanese and we'll forget about the oppression of the Ainu people.


Hav'nt heard of that.


You also have to see Israel in the context of its whole raison d'etre. Centuries of persecution culminating in the Holocaust and exacerbated by the Jewish nakbas and subsequent exodus of Jews from Arabic and Islamic countries have all led to the situation.


That has NOTHING to do with the modern jewish state.


A one state solution/binational solution would not be a Jewish state per se, not at least as I see it, but rather a state for Jews, as well as Muslims, Christians, Druze etc.

There already is a state for jews, its most states.

[ComradeMan]

And leftist all over the place bash the treatment of the Tibetians all the time..

Hmmm..... here at RevLeft we have had discussions about Tibet and the whole issue was downplayed by some members, Maoists in particular, using astonishingly similar rhetoric to that used by.... hardline zionist Israelis.... :crying:


Hav'nt heard of that...

Well I suggest you check it out. A Japanese girl I knew who had a non-Japanese boyfriend explained to me about the problems this caused because of the racism and institutionalised racism in Japan. As for the Ainu people...

On June 6, 2008, a bi-partisan, non-binding resolution was approved by the Japanese Diet (http://www.revleft.org/wiki/Japanese_Diet) calling upon the government to recognize the Ainu people as indigenous to Japan (http://www.revleft.org/wiki/Indigenous_peoples) and urge an end to discrimination against the group. The resolution recognised the Ainu people as "an indigenous people with a distinct language, religion and culture" and rescinds the law passed in 1899.[11] (http://www.revleft.org/vb/#cite_note-bbc-10)[15] (http://www.revleft.org/vb/#cite_note-14)
Though the resolution is historically significant, Hideaki Uemura, professor at Keisen University in Tokyo and a specialist in indigenous peoples' rights, commented that the motion is "weak in the sense of recognizing historical facts" as the Ainu were "forced" to become Japanese in the first place.[16]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ainu_people#Official_recognition (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ainu_people#Official_recognition)
11 Fogarty, Philippa (June 6, 2008). "Recognition at last for Japan's Ainu" (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/7437244.stm). BBC News (BBC). http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/7437244.stm (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/7437244.stm). Retrieved June 7, 2008.
15 Ito, M 2008, ‘Diet officially declares Ainu indigenous’, Japan Times, June 7, viewed April 29, 2009, <http://search.japantimes.co.jp/cgi-bin/nn20080607a1.html (http://search.japantimes.co.jp/cgi-bin/nn20080607a1.html)>
16 The Japan Times | Diet officially declares Ainu indigenous (http://search.japantimes.co.jp/cgi-bin/nn20080607a1.html)


That has NOTHING to do with the modern jewish state....There already is a state for jews, its most states.

Now you're being ridiculous and deliberately ignoring the context.

1948 was three years after the end of what....?

Germany had been a state for Jews until the Nazis came along. Anti-semitism hasn't gone away.

[RGacky3]

Now you're being ridiculous and deliberately ignoring the context.

1948 was three years after the end of what....?

Germany had been a state for Jews until the Nazis came along. Anti-semitism hasn't gone away.

That had nothing to do with the palestininans, nor anything to do with the current oppressino of palestinians, If this was happening in Germany, then maybe.

[ComradeMan]

That had nothing to do with the palestininans, nor anything to do with the current oppressino of palestinians, If this was happening in Germany, then maybe.

So you don't see the creation of the Jewish state as a logical consequence of anti-Semitism and the Holocaust? Just where were the original aliya settlers/refugees coming from and why? You also don't see the mass exodus of Jews, chased out of the Arabic/Islamic world and mostly going to Israel (logically) as having any demographic and political consequences for the modern state of Israel?

No one is saying this is a justification to treat Palestinians badly, but during the Second World War- before the foundation of Israel, the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem was having fun discussing anti-semitic polcies with Hitler- you don't see that as having an effect on the matter either?

By the way, this conflict did not begin solely in 1948.

Check out Petah Tikva.
;)

[Dimentio]

You know what? I don't care what you disinegnuous anti-this and that schmucks think whatsoever. The only perosn who is thick is you.

Why not dismantle the Swedish state which has oppressed the Sami
people and made good money selling weapons to the Nazis during the Holocaust?
:thumbup1:

I have nothing against dismantling the Swedish state.

The Sami were terribly oppressed into the 1940's, but that is not equivalent. Nowadays, Sweden is not ethnocentric, and the country is not founded upon those principles. When modern Sweden was formed in 1523, it was already a multi-cultural society.

[Dimentio]

So you don't see the creation of the Jewish state as a logical consequence of anti-Semitism and the Holocaust? Just where were the original aliya settlers/refugees coming from and why? You also don't see the mass exodus of Jews, chased out of the Arabic/Islamic world and mostly going to Israel (logically) as having any demographic and political consequences for the modern state of Israel?

No one is saying this is a justification to treat Palestinians badly, but during the Second World War- before the foundation of Israel, the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem was having fun discussing anti-semitic polcies with Hitler- you don't see that as having an effect on the matter either?

By the way, this conflict did not begin solely in 1948.

Check out Petah Tikva.
;)

If a Jewish state was to be created, why not create it in a part of Germany?

[RGacky3]

So you don't see the creation of the Jewish state as a logical consequence of anti-Semitism and the Holocaust?

No, its the logical consequence of British Imperialism and British disdain for the palestinian people.


You also don't see the mass exodus of Jews, chased out of the Arabic/Islamic world and mostly going to Israel (logically) as having any demographic and political consequences for the modern state of Israel?


No, I don't, Isreal was made by the United Kingdom.


Petah Tikva

Yup, a tiny little town in Palestine .... Your really trying hard arnt you. Why not make New York a Jewish State if your gong about it that way? Your being silly now.

[ComradeMan]

No, its the logical consequence of British Imperialism and British disdain for the palestinian people.


No, I don't, Isreal was made by the United Kingdom.

That is the most ridiculous and simplistic, verging on disingenuously dishonest summary of the creation of the State of Israel for a while.

Jewish resettlement in Israel has been going on for centuries- under Islamic Ottoman rule for the latter part.


Yup, a tiny little town in Palestine .... Your really trying hard arnt you. Why not make New York a Jewish State if your gong about it that way? Your being silly now.

Did you bother read the history of this tiny little town in reference to the conflict and the history of Israel?

Look- there is no point trying to discuss things when you refuse to take into account the history and present a twisted and simplistic version of events to suit your own opinion.

It would suit a lot of people to say that Palestine was a utopia in which Arab Palestinians had all their rights and property etc and then the nasty Jewish Zionists came helped by the British and took it all away from them.

Unfortunately, that is not really the whole story whatsoever. If you are not prepared to discuss at least 300 years of history that includes Europe and the Islamic world then it's a waste of time trying to discuss the situation in Israel and doesn't say much for your sense of "historical materialism".

[Dimentio]

That does not explain why the Palestinians have to pay for German war crimes?

[Bud Struggle]

That does not explain why the Palestinians have to pay for German war crimes?

Or present day Israelis having to pay for the sins of their fathers.

[Wanted Man]

Since this is the new "bother ComradeMan about Palestine" thread, I'm still curious why he can't openly support the Palestinian right of return. Why is this so difficult?

It's not even about "Israelis having to pay for the sins of their fathers", the point is to make a little room for people who were ethnically cleansed 60 years ago. But ComradeMan probably thinks it's fair and balanced and socialist to tell these people, "Oh yeah, you got ethnically cleansed, tough shit. You'd better get used to living in Jordan/Egypt/wherever, because we're not letting you back in. There's a Jewish family living in your home now, and asking them to move across the street would be anti-semitic."

[Revolution starts with U]

Or present day Israelis having to pay for the sins of their fathers.

Whoa now. That's completely different. It's not as if the NAZI's stil exist (at least as a body practicing political authority). But Isreal is still keeping people from their homes.

[ComradeMan]

Since this is the new "bother ComradeMan about Palestine" thread, I'm still curious why he can't openly support the Palestinian right of return. Why is this so difficult?

It's not even about "Israelis having to pay for the sins of their fathers", the point is to make a little room for people who were ethnically cleansed 60 years ago. But ComradeMan probably thinks it's fair and balanced and socialist to tell these people, "Oh yeah, you got ethnically cleansed, tough shit. You'd better get used to living in Jordan/Egypt/wherever, because we're not letting you back in. There's a Jewish family living in your home now, and asking them to move across the street would be anti-semitic."

Sorry- but that position has already been stated a long time ago. Of course in a one state solution/bi national solution the issue of the right of return of refugees would be covered and basically they could go home if they so chose- in line with UN Resolution 242. But this right of return and/or compensation is where pressure also falls on the Islamic/Arabic nations that forced out 900,000 Jews too. The same nations that were responsible for the "nakba" that led to the refugee issue in the first place.

This is an area in which both sides are completely ricalcitrant.

So I'm afraid you've wasted your time with a strawman

[Le Libérer]

Can we not have a new thread on Israel every day? I see at least two other threads that this could be merged with.

And on that note, thread closed.

Freepalenstine, find another topic to discuss.