just went to a swp meeting

[scarletghoul]

i have to say all the stereotypes were brought to life vividly.

i went in the room, there was 4 people, so i asked where the meeting was. turns out that was the meeting. there was this guy from london who was supposed to do a speech/talk, 2 ginger boys and a nervous repressed girl with glasses who kept apologising for everything. one of the first things i was asked was if i wanted a newspaper. no one else turned up so we decided to go to a regional branch meeting which was taking place at the same time. we got there and there was 5 others, making 9 (the girl left). the first thing the regional people asked the student person was how many newspapers they had sold. the other guy gave his talk about egypt basically just saying how good it was that there was a revolutoin and thats it. we had open discussion, where i (in my mao shirt) said how yes it was great that theres a revolution but we should look a little deeper, at the fact that theres no socialist leadership so egypt will probably end up either a liberal democracy or islamist, and that the lesson to be learned is that we should build up popular support for socialism so that when a movement like that happens in this country it wont be wasted. this didnt get through to them and just served as a point for them to criticise, saying how i was wrong to downplay the revolution and how egypt could maybe become socialist etc etc. then there was a discussion about how they were trying to reach out to muslims but the imam didnt like them or something. it was boring and depressing and tbh these were not the people who could lead the masses to power. they were nice people though, a lot of shaking of hands and someone payed for my bus fare, but yeah. i ended up with about a million leaflets and a strong conviction never to join that organisation.

[Blackscare]

Glad I didn't bother going to check them out IRL, I've heard similar things. Also, most of these parties have a few areas where they have a largish group, stronghold cities I guess. You probably weren't wherever that was, although from what I hear that probably would have been a worse experience, assuming their cultish nature is stronger where there's a large, cohesive group.


Viva PSL :cool:

[Rusty Shackleford]

Viva! :lol:

[Who?]

Viva WWP! :tt2:

[Rusty Shackleford]

lol

[Tablo]

Make total destroy!

[Os Cangaceiros]

Glad I didn't bother going to check them out IRL, I've heard similar things. Also, most of these parties have a few areas where they have a largish group, stronghold cities I guess. You probably weren't wherever that was, although from what I hear that probably would have been a worse experience, assuming their cultish nature is stronger where there's a large, cohesive group.


Viva PSL :cool:

I don't think that the SWP he's talking about even has branches in the United States. I think the ISO is the closest thing here to a SWP-type org.

[¿Que?]

cool story bro...

Actually, it was kind of a cool story:)

[Angry Young Man]

If you insist upon living in wretched little backwaters, that's what you get

[Ele'ill]

http://us.123rf.com/400wm/400/400/pixelsaway/pixelsaway1002/pixelsaway100200053/6514234-three-elements-of-true-motivation--mastery-autonomy-purpose--crossword-with-ivory-letter-blocks-on-c.jpg

[Os Cangaceiros]

mind? blown.

[NoOneIsIllegal]

I don't think that the SWP he's talking about even has branches in the United States. I think the ISO is the closest thing here to a SWP-type org.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Socialist_Workers_Party_%28United_States%29
There's an SWP in the USA that's also Trotskyist as well. There's no difference; extremely small, newspaper-orientated. They still do presidential bids too.

[Wanted Man]

Yeah, but they are completely different people.

[red cat]

i have to say all the stereotypes were brought to life vividly.

i went in the room, there was 4 people, so i asked where the meeting was. turns out that was the meeting. there was this guy from london who was supposed to do a speech/talk, 2 ginger boys and a nervous repressed girl with glasses who kept apologising for everything. one of the first things i was asked was if i wanted a newspaper. no one else turned up so we decided to go to a regional branch meeting which was taking place at the same time. we got there and there was 5 others, making 9 (the girl left). the first thing the regional people asked the student person was how many newspapers they had sold. the other guy gave his talk about egypt basically just saying how good it was that there was a revolutoin and thats it. we had open discussion, where i (in my mao shirt) said how yes it was great that theres a revolution but we should look a little deeper, at the fact that theres no socialist leadership so egypt will probably end up either a liberal democracy or islamist, and that the lesson to be learned is that we should build up popular support for socialism so that when a movement like that happens in this country it wont be wasted. this didnt get through to them and just served as a point for them to criticise, saying how i was wrong to downplay the revolution and how egypt could maybe become socialist etc etc. then there was a discussion about how they were trying to reach out to muslims but the imam didnt like them or something. it was boring and depressing and tbh these were not the people who could lead the masses to power. they were nice people though, a lot of shaking of hands and someone payed for my bus fare, but yeah. i ended up with about a million leaflets and a strong conviction never to join that organisation.

:laugh::laugh::laugh:

[Os Cangaceiros]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Socialist_Workers_Party_%28United_States%29
There's an SWP in the USA that's also Trotskyist as well. There's no difference; extremely small, newspaper-orientated. They still do presidential bids too.

I was aware that there's an SWP in the USA (aren't they the clowns that demand that their members be meat-packers or something?), hence the "that he's talking about" caveat. I think that the USA SWP is super-tiny, though, so tiny that I've never seen anyone on this site that claims to be a member.

[Wanted Man]

What, Severian was before your time, ES?

[Os Cangaceiros]

Must have been. I don't remember anyone but that username.

[Hoplite]

The flames of many small candles can, if put together, create an inferno.

They may lack direction, but I wouldn't discount them entirely.

[black magick hustla]

not to poop on your stoop comrade scarletghoul but i doubt sitting with a bunch of maoist nerds in london you are gonna find social butterflies

[Os Cangaceiros]

Don't piss in scarletghoul's cornflakes.

[Kalifornia]

HAHA, you should have brought the roof down with a Hamptonesque speech, then gon, clean yoself up, and walked out.

[Lord Testicles]

not to poop on your stoop comrade scarletghoul but i doubt sitting with a bunch of trotskyist newsagents in london you are gonna find social butterflies

Fix'd.



it was boring and depressing. they were nice people though[...] i ended up with about a million leaflets and a strong conviction never to join that organisation.

This is the exact impression I was left with when I had my first run in with the SWP, not to mention really defensive.

[Jimmie Higgins]

strong conviction never to join that organisation.Good, who wants elitist Maoists who thinks he's better than ginger people and repressed "girls" anyway?:p

[Kuppo Shakur]

Man, you're just jealous because your guys haven't sold as many newspapers as us.
DON'T MESS WITH THE BIG DOGS.

[scarletghoul]

oh yeah and when i arrived and there was 4 other people the guy was like 'thats alright ive done speeches with smaller audiences'. i felt bad for laughing. why even do a speech, why not just have an informal conversation ? they designated a chairperson and everythign..
also i had an argument with someone about popular front tactics to fight franco and the japanese etc, he said the socialists should fight them alone. then the 2nd half of the meeting was filled with this UAF stuff about the need to ally with liberals against fascism...
and they went on about this autonomist who insulted them on facebook, like it was the end of the world.

i dont mean to come off as elitist or anything. i just think as a revolutionary my time would be spent more productively talking to ordinary people in pubs etc than at meetings like this.

[Kalifornia]

the swp papers are like hemeroids, sooner or later every asshole gets em

[NoOneIsIllegal]

I was aware that there's an SWP in the USA (aren't they the clowns that demand that their members be meat-packers or something?), hence the "that he's talking about" caveat. I think that the USA SWP is super-tiny, though, so tiny that I've never seen anyone on this site that claims to be a member.
I think the group suffered from more than two splits. However, even before that, it still remained relatively small. One of Ralph Nader's vice-presidential picks (Peter Camejo) ran on their ticket in '76 and surprisingly received 91,000 votes.

But yes, they're an extremely small and unimportant party. I heard they're actually trying to organize in my hometown (Omaha). My guess would probably be due to the recent activity of the IWW in Nebraska.

[synthesis]

Good, who wants elitist Maoists who thinks he's better than ginger people and repressed "girls" anyway?:p

I don't know about "repressed girls" but I do prefer to be around people with souls, myself...

[Admiral Swagmeister G-Funk]

oh yeah and when i arrived and there was 4 other people the guy was like 'thats alright ive done speeches with smaller audiences'. i felt bad for laughing. why even do a speech, why not just have an informal conversation ? they designated a chairperson and everythign..
also i had an argument with someone about popular front tactics to fight franco and the japanese etc, he said the socialists should fight them alone. then the 2nd half of the meeting was filled with this UAF stuff about the need to ally with liberals against fascism...
and they went on about this autonomist who insulted them on facebook, like it was the end of the world.

i dont mean to come off as elitist or anything. i just think as a revolutionary my time would be spent more productively talking to ordinary people in pubs etc than at meetings like this.
I've felt that about any branch meeting I've been to though, for any organization. They're like little sectarian vacuums where you talk about the great role your party is going to play, and how all other parties are sectarian or middle class, or whatever. Oh and the burning issues of paper sales and the like.

I've had much better results in turning people onto the ideas of the left in chatting with them at pubs or at Uni than I ever have in inviting them to branch meetings.

There's nothing wrong with having discussions, I just think they should be a lot more informal and a lot less up their own arse, basically.

[Rosa Lichtenstein]

What a thoroughly 'scientific' sample we have here: one meeting!:lol:

[Wanted Man]

What a thoroughly 'scientific' sample we have here: one meeting!:lol:

Does it have to be?

For what it's worth, I'm sure these experiences can be replicated by anyone who has the patience to attend a meeting of their local IS branch. The rest of us will just have to do with their interventions in unionist struggles, which are certainly interesting here, to say the least.

[Dr. Rosenpenis]

swp is afiliated with the intl socialist tendency
their people around here are actually pretty cool
among the more moderate trots, tho

[Lyev]

Well I am organising a branch meeting and it is going to be pretty informal at the local pub, and I am not going to call people comrade. So there :tt2:

[Rosa Lichtenstein]

WM:


Does it have to be?

For it to avoid the accusation of prejudice, yes it does.

[Tablo]

Haha, you Marxists and your parties.

[¿Que?]

What a thoroughly 'scientific' sample we have here: one meeting!:lol:
It may have just been an exploratory qualitative study, tho.:laugh:

[SamV]

Was the repressed girl attractive at least? Also ew Mao, I don't even like Mao on my sandwiches, much less in my politics.

[gorillafuck]

Was the repressed girl attractive at least?
I'm never one to accuse someone of sexism for talking about attractive people (because it isn't), but when referring to women in a political organization that's definitely a sexist thing to say.


not to poop on your stoop comrade scarletghoul but i doubt sitting with a bunch of maoist nerds in london you are gonna find social butterflies
First world maoists are always out being awesome social butterflies partying it up with their cool friends who everyone respects when they are not making revolution in Britain

[Q]

...and a nervous repressed girl with glasses who kept apologising for everything.
How cool, you met Rosa!

[Lord Testicles]

What a thoroughly 'scientific' sample we have here: one meeting!:lol:

Scarletghoul was talking about one meeting and how it put him off joining the SWP, the rest of the organisation doesn't really come into it, or do you suggest the people meet everybody who is part of an organisation before joining it so they can have a balanced view of that group?

[Wanted Man]

oh yeah and when i arrived and there was 4 other people the guy was like 'thats alright ive done speeches with smaller audiences'. i felt bad for laughing. why even do a speech, why not just have an informal conversation ? they designated a chairperson and everythign..

Did the audience clap as well?

[Kléber]

At least they're trying to organize something, not just wanking and trolling online. What a snotty rant. First World Stalinist are about as useful for making revolution as Stephen Hawking's penis is for making love!

[Bright Banana Beard]

Yes, with your magnificent website of right to rebel, kleber.

[SamV]

I'm never one to accuse someone of sexism for talking about attractive people (because it isn't), but when referring to women in a political organization that's definitely a sexist thing to say.

So no?

I don't see the problem here.

[The Grey Blur]

At least they're trying to organize something, not just wanking and trolling online. What a snotty rant. First World Stalinist are about as useful for making revolution as Stephen Hawking's penis is for making love!
while i don't see this attitude as specific to stalinists i agree with kléber. these boring and often apparently pointless trotskyist meetings/organisations have been and will continue to be the backbone of the british radical left, like it or lump it. i know you'd rather be fighting a guerilla war in nepal but in the post-soviet era when marxism politically and ideologically has been at its lowest ebb it has been 'trots' for all their organisational/agitational fustiness that have kept radical socialist ideas alive in trade unions, workplaces, and campaigned against war, against privatisation, etc all of which are worthy causes if not necessarily rewarding for the egos of those who would like to see themselves as che-style men of action. even your language about 'repressed girls' and ginger kids sounds more like a tory bully-boy than a left-wing activist.

these two articles reinforce my point and make it evident that your sneering approach is shared by the new labour bureaucrats and right-wing ideologues. interesting bedfellows:

http://thegreatunrest.net/2010/12/18/in-defence-of-trots/
http://averypublicsociologist.blogspot.com/2010/12/in-praise-of-far-left.html

[scarletghoul]

while i don't see this attitude as specific to stalinists i agree with kléber. these boring and often apparently pointless trotskyist meetings/organisations have been and will continue to be the backbone of the british radical left, like it or lump it.
Why ? Why should we put up with this ? Better to start from scratch imo, and leave those groups behind. They're approach is incorrect and they are so small it would require too much more time and energy to try and correct them.

i know you'd rather be fighting a guerilla war in nepalyou're a stupid twat tbh and i suggest you educate yourself on maoism

but in the post-soviet era when marxism politically and ideologically has been at its lowest ebb it has been 'trots' for all their organisational/agitational fustiness that have kept radical socialist ideas alive in trade unions, workplaces, and campaigned against war, against privatisation, etc all of which are worthy causes if not necessarily rewarding for the egos of those who would like to see themselves as che-style men of action.This is where the fundamental mistake in your world view lies. Revolutionary consciousness exploded back onto the political landscape in Britain with the milibank riot, not because of any cliffite agitation but because of the internal contradiction in the system. Most people do not care or even really know about the SWP, but they know that the system is shit and are receptive to logical ideas about revolution.

even your language about 'repressed girls' and ginger kidsThe repressed girl label was not an insult at her but rather a tragic observation on what seems to be the effect of that shitty organisation. The meeting was so bureaucratic and rigid, even with just a few people, i got the sense that this girl had been conditioned that way by the party. she kept apologising for things and it was really sad. The whole thing was tragi-comic; theyre just using these kids for newspapers and recruiting more members, not encouraging creative thought or discussion or anything like that. She was so nervous even around her 'comrades'. it was a suffocating environment. theres no excuse for that style of work in any party, but especially not where theres under 10 people, they should have just had informal discussion of events with a few drinks or whatever, invited friends and so on.

The left is better off ignoring groups like this and starting from scratch. its far more rewarding to spend time with the people than with the trots.

But yes drawing attention to gingerness was out of line, i shouldnt have done that. That is my only self-criticism regarding this thread however.

[Kléber]

So what you're saying is a vanguard party is unnecessary, we should just get drunk and hang out and wait for the system to spontaneously collapse on its own. Or perhaps a liberating phoenix will emerge from the flaming wreckage of Maoism and do the job for us.

[scarletghoul]

So what you're saying is a vanguard party is unnecessary, we should just get drunk and hang out and wait for the system to spontaneously collapse on its own.
no im saying we should be one with the people instead of recruiting a student base to convert into newspaper-dispensers and holding 8-person meetings like its the UN general assembly

[Kléber]

Years before the 1917 revolution, Lenin said he could only count 10 reliable Bolshevik party members.

Read some Lenin.

http://www.marxists.org/archive/lenin/works/1901/witbd/

[Matty_UK]

Why ? Why should we put up with this ? Better to start from scratch imo, and leave those groups behind. They're approach is incorrect and they are so small it would require too much more time and energy to try and correct them.

So you start from scratch, and then congratulations, you are now a member of UK Marxist sect no. 134. And I guarantee your meetings are going to be a lot smaller than the SWP's, seeing as they are the largest Marxist group in the UK, and by quite a long way as well.

[Matty_UK]

no im saying we should be one with the people instead of recruiting a student base to convert into newspaper-dispensers and holding 8-person meetings like its the UN general assembly

And how do we become "one with the people", and what does that even mean?

[The Grey Blur]

i can assure you that the ideological rigidness and stifled political culture of groups like the SWP are not unique to the trotskyist left. (that accusation is especially amusing coming from a stalinist- at least an SWP meeting will have an average age below 60). i think i'm correct judging by your previous posts that you have had little or no experience of the organised left. if you really are expecting the non-SWP left to be full of extroverted revolutionary party animals with an open culture of discussion you are going to be sorely disappointed.

re: the little amount of politics you managed in your response- if the internal contradictions of capitalism are going to result in a spontaneous outburst of revolutionary action why even organise or agitate at all? surely lenin and mao didn't agree with this view. your rhetoric as regards millbank (which resulted in what? smashed windows and a fire extinguisher dropped from a height?) has more in common with anarchism/propaganda of the deed than any branch of marxism. i agree the student movement gives a fresh impetus (ideologically and organisationally) to the left-wing movement internationally and that that is a "good thing" but if you think that it alone will result in a re-invention of the left (outside of all existing organisations? really?) you are mistaken.

again as i said, "like it or lump it" but the 74 brands of trotskyism in the UK are as much a part of this nebulous "left" you refer to as yourself, the anarchists, the tankies, and so on. they've been the most important force in keeping radical socialist ideas alive as an active (albeit defensive) force in working-class politics over the past 20 years in britain, hands down. and they will be as much a part of the future of the left in the guise of the anti-austerity movement, in fact the three main anti-cuts groupings (coalition of resistance, right to work, national shop stewards network) are all essentially trotskyist front groups.

[Os Cangaceiros]

It's time to grab the bandoliers, AK47s and retreat into the jungles of Britain to wage protracted people's war

[Kuppo Shakur]

"Workers of all countries, sell newspapers!"
-Karl Farts

[Lord Testicles]

So what you're saying is a vanguard party is unnecessary, we should just get drunk and hang out and wait for the system to spontaneously collapse on its own.

I thought the vanguard was supposed to be the advanced layers of the working class not just anyone who gets press ganged into signing up to direct debit.

[A Revolutionary Tool]

Just went to a Maoist meeting...

It was pretty sad. I sat around alone in my room giving speeches while the suppressed girl in my head kept apologizing for some reason. Then I debated myself on the situation in Egypt and after hours of debate decided to give up and watch riot porn dreaming of the day it could happen here.

Then I decided to go to a meeting with more than just one person in it...

...I'll never go to another one of those meetings again.

[Patchd]

^ Awesome.

[Wanted Man]

these boring and often apparently pointless trotskyist meetings/organisations have been and will continue to be the backbone of the british radical left, like it or lump it. i know you'd rather be fighting a guerilla war in nepal but in the post-soviet era when marxism politically and ideologically has been at its lowest ebb it has been 'trots' for all their organisational/agitational fustiness that have kept radical socialist ideas alive in trade unions, workplaces, and campaigned against war, against privatisation, etc all of which are worthy causes if not necessarily rewarding for the egos of those who would like to see themselves as che-style men of action.

...and great delusions of grandeur too.

But you guys are right to say that British trotskyism is no less sad than the rest of the left, and that nobody is really in a position to judge. Certainly Maoism, but I don't know if scarletghoul really labours under the illusion that there will ever be a significant British Maoist party that will wage "people's war", so that's kind of a pointless thing to attack.

[The Grey Blur]

i'm not a formal trotskyist, i'm an irish republican socialist or 'connolly-ist'. i suggest you read both linked articles. i certainly don't think there was anything grand about what the trots in britain have achieved over the last 20 years (and the anarchists to a lesser extent) but like it or not they have been the most organised, consistent and committed activists in working class political circles in that period and that thankless task has (in a perverse, fusty, and semi-accidental manner) laid the ground for the current resurgence of left ideas amongst young people and the general population.

the only consistent element of scarletghoul's politics i'm able to identify is a support for guerilla struggles no matter how misguided so that was all i had to attack. it was tongue-in-cheek and equivalent to his arbitrary strawman rejection of 'trotskyism' based on attending a single SWP meeting.

[Lord Testicles]

the only consistent element of scarletghoul's politics i'm able to identify is a support for guerilla struggles no matter how misguided so that was all i had to attack. it was tongue-in-cheek and equivalent to his arbitrary strawman rejection of 'trotskyism' based on attending a single SWP meeting.

Where in the OP did scarletghoul say he rejected trotskyism?

[The Grey Blur]

:rolleyes:

[Lord Testicles]

Oh yeah, nowhere.