Rightist Libertarianism Question

[Unclebananahead]

What's the deal with rightist libertarians suggesting that what exists in the US isn't actually capitalism, but rather something else. They usually use some term like "corporatism."

[Victus Mortuum]

Right libertarians, depending on their particular alignments, usually believe in a minimal state that only protects property. They don't believe it should go beyond that and actually subsidize any private property. It's a position that any capitalist or manager who is not getting buddy buddy benefits from the government would support in order to prevent their tax dollars aiding other capitalists instead of themselves (such as small business owners). The fact that they call themselves libertarians is kind of ironic as libertarianism has always been opposed to capitalist authority in the workplace, but such is the nature of words. It refers to liberty for the small-scale capitalist.

Something I've been figuring out lately is a large break between the right and left in terms of vocabulary. For the right, capitalism fundamentally refers to a mode of distribution: namely, free exchange. For the left, capitalism fundamentally refers to a mode of production: namely, capitalist authority and control of the productive process. So to the right, it isn't capitalism if it interferes with the distribution mechanisms of the market (i.e. bailouts and social programs and such) and to the left, it is capitalism if it still fundamentally has despotic control of the productive process (capitalist v. state).

[La Peur Rouge]

What's the deal with rightist libertarians suggesting that what exists in the US isn't actually capitalism, but rather something else. They usually use some term like "corporatism."

I've seen this a lot, it seems like just a way for them to try to end the discussion.

[Catmatic Leftist]

Ask him, "And?"

[NoOneIsIllegal]

What's the deal with rightist libertarians suggesting that what exists in the US isn't actually capitalism, but rather something else
They think Laissez-Faire capitalism is the only true form of capitalism. Anything else (Keynesian-ism, welfare states, "social democracy" in modern times) isn't viewed as "true capitalism" and believe these states will either collapse from within or will lead to the road of "socialism"

These people forget or pretend decades such as the 1870s, 1890s, and the Great Depression didn't happen.

[Sir Comradical]

Even if we assume the existence of their perfect free market utopia at time-zero, the competitive nature of the market would eventually lead to powerful capitalists using the state to advance their own interests. In other words, following their utopian-ideal to its logical conclusion will inevitably produce results that negate their ideal. They're idealists, so none of their shit actually makes sense.

[gestalt]

It is a symptom, and knee-jerk reaction, of their entirely theoretical world view. The only legitimate act of government is the protection of "negative rights," which they convolute with the protection of private property through some a priori slight of hand.

All problems, which the rational person would understand as inherent to capitalism, are a product of coercion and "statism." (E.g., "It is not capitalism which is responsible for the evils of permanent mass unemployment, but the policy which paralyses its working." or "The ultimate cause, therefore, of the phenomenon of wave after wave of economic ups and downs is ideological in character. The cycles will not disappear so long as people believe that the rate of interest may be reduced, not through the accumulation of capital, but by banking policy.") And followed to its logical conclusion, almost every aspect of contemporary society is coercion or "statism."

As one already pointed out, it is the position of the capitalist who may not have the resources or connections to effectively lobby government or the petty-bourgeois who thinks all that is needed to correct the current plutocracy is "more competition."

Most express nostalgia for the bygone, halcyon days of unfettered capitalism and the widespread prosperity it brought which have never existed in any form anywhere.

It creates some asinine posturing, such as the Misesian crowd becoming apologists for the situation in Somalia.

[SamV]

These people forget or pretend decades such as the 1870s, 1890s, and the Great Depression didn't happen.



This or they pretend like capitalism didn't cause those things. Like seriously how the fuck can anyone seriously think government caused the great depression? Granted I hate both market and command economies but seriously?

But they do have a point, when government starts bailing out businesses and such thats actually corporatism, what they don't understand is that its usually businesses that want those bailouts in the first place.

[Savage]

Right wing Libertarians tend to be economists or politicians, very few actual capitalists (that own private property and exploit wage laborers) are Libertarians, because most of them aren't idiots.

[Unclebananahead]

So, the manner in which the US economy operated in the 19th century was good, and the government caused the great depression? This is kind of blowing my mind. It's just incredible that there could be people that believe this stuff. Correct me if I'm wrong, but they think that 'real capitalism' would somehow not require a coercive state apparatus, yes?

[Savage]

So, the manner in which the US economy operated in the 19th century was good, and the government caused the great depression? This is kind of blowing my mind. It's just incredible that there could be people that believe this stuff. Correct me if I'm wrong, but they think that 'real capitalism' would somehow not require a coercive state apparatus, yes?
As long as the government plays no role in the market they don't care, most libertarians are against gay marriage, abortion etc, and support authoritarian anti-immigration measures. Any kind of state coercion that defends private property is fine with them, no matter how many people die for their 'libertarian' cause.

[SamV]

most libertarians are against gay marriage, abortion etc, and support authoritarian anti-immigration measures.


Actually this isn't as true as some would think, I have some libertarian friends and they are pretty liberal socially. Hell the people who write southpark are actually libertarians.

[Unclebananahead]

Is there any way to view this ideological tendency as anything other than a 'red herring' which absorbs discontent with the existing corporate system into safe channels, which actually often bolster the interests of the bourgeoisie?

I'm actually thinking about doing a video on this subject, after having had an extensive debate with one of them.

[NoOneIsIllegal]

As long as the government plays no role in the market they don't care, most libertarians are against gay marriage, abortion etc, and support authoritarian anti-immigration measures. Any kind of state coercion that defends private property is fine with them, no matter how many people die for their 'libertarian' cause.
Most Libertarians (see: Libertarian Party) I have met either say: 1) they support gay marriage, or 2) it doesn't matter, it's up to the people to decide and not the state.

However, there are a few morons out there (see: Glenn Beck) who self-identify as Libertarian, but have socially far-right outlooks. Beck is the only real famous case I can think of.

[Savage]

Actually now that I think of it I know of quite a few libertarians who support gay marriage, but even these ones are very hostile towards abortion.