ohhhh damn Jordan [Archive]

Bud Struggle

2nd February 2011, 11:40

Yes, Egypt has no working class, as it is populated exclusively by business owners. :lol: I always thought angry workers in the streets confuses and befuddles capitalists, and your insistence that workers don't exist in Egypt (:laugh:) is undeniable proof of that. Oddly enough if you've ever been to Egypt you'd see that there are almost no factories or large places of business. Almost the entire economy is run by small businesses mostly run by families--that make a subsistence living. Most people are highly uneducated. Egypt is a very poor country. They are Revolting because of high food prices. The Revolution though is being formented by the Bourgeois--the doctors and the lawers that have education. They are the ones interested in political change.

Troubles in Egypt are about food, not politics
Published: February 1 2011 02:59 | Last updated: February 1 2011 02:59

From Mr Vincent J. Truglia.

Sir, Most commentators have missed the real reason behind the protests in Egypt and elsewhere. It is not simply a sudden desire for reform. Rather, the key problem is the price of food. There are two vexing problems for the Egyptian government: first, a rising population of about 80m; and second, declining per capita domestic food production.

Food riots occurred in 1977 and in 2008. The government was lucky because it could deal with the problem in a straightforward fashion.

Egypt’s agriculture ministry last year reported that 40 per cent of its total foodstuffs, including 60 per cent of its wheat, the country’s staple food, were imported. Egypt, formerly one of the world’s breadbaskets, is now humiliated by being one of the world’s largest food importers.

Higher grain prices forced the government in 2010 to expand the number of people eligible for food ration cards. It also extended ration cards to rice and sugar. The Egyptian government also announced that 50 per cent of its wheat supply had been discarded because of insect infestation. Such a government must face serious questions of competence.

Will rioting stop? I think not, until either someone is held accountable for high food prices (even if they are not the cause) and the insect infestation disaster.

Depending on the measure used, wheat prices increased between 50 and 70 per cent in 2010, mainly for weather-related reasons. Now that wheat and other grain prices have reached the stratosphere, grain prices might decline in 2011. My guess is the fall will be modest.

Pessimism on grain price declines is related to China and India. Rising incomes have increased demand for meat and dairy products. Such demand requires massive grain inputs.

Most emerging market countries know they cannot compete for grain with China and India. It is not just Egypt and Tunisia that have been worried. Algeria has been scouring the world for grain to reduce unrest. Yemen is in the same situation. We cannot forget that both countries are still recovering from civil wars.

Will unrest spread to the Gulf? I doubt it because Gulf countries have the wherewithal to purchase and subsidise food. This is not about politics; it is about food. That is why President Hosni Mubarak may think he can ride out the storm, but first he must get his hands on cheap food quickly.

Vincent J. Truglia,

Managing Director of Global Economic Research,

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/7c503180-2d8b-11e0-8f53-00144feab49a.html#axzz1CiitLm6j (http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/7c503180-2d8b-11e0-8f53-00144feab49a.html#axzz1CiitLm6j)

Anyway, it will be important to see how Jordanians react to this reshuffling; substantive anger at the monarchy itself could be momentous, especially as it borders Saudi Arabia. The king is above himself "above" politics, which of course is nonsense, because he actually rules the country. The cabinet are just stick figures. That being said--Jordan does not have the money to meet the growing food costs.

manic expression

2nd February 2011, 12:03

Oddly enough if you've ever been to Egypt you'd see that there are almost no factories or large places of business. Almost the entire economy is run by small businesses mostly run by families--that make a subsistence living. Egypt is a very poor country.
So agriculture, textiles, construction and tourism operate entirely on the labor of family-run small businesses? Hard, nay impossible, to believe. I didn't see a single factory when I was staying in South Bronx...is that devoid of workers, too? Exactly.

Troubles in Egypt are about food, not politics
That's a contradiction in terms. Food IS politics.

The king is above himself "above" politics, which of course is nonsense, because he actually rules the country. The cabnet are just stick figures.The more the king involves himself in politics the better, I suppose. This reshuffling should contribute a bit to that.

RGacky3

2nd February 2011, 12:15

Oddly enough if you've ever been to Egypt you'd see that there are almost no factories or large places of business.

Bud, I'm pretty sure the farms and factories and oil fields and such are not the places you see when you visit Egypt. Are you basing your analysis on a trip you took? (would'nt suprise me) If so your an idiot. No working class? What do people do them?

Goes left? :lol:

Yes, goes left, democracy is a leftist ideal. A large part of the protest are against Capitalistic policies instituted by Mubarak (as opposed to the more state socialist Nasser), they are pissed that the economic growth has only gone to the top .... Capitalism, a lot of it is also against the fact that Mubarak is a US subservient.

Your blind if you don't realize this is a left-populist uprising.

Nobody's talking Trotsky on these streets.

Why the hell would they be?

These are entirely Bougeoisie Revolutions. There aren't any working class in these countries. Egypt with 80 million people has the GNP of Connecticut with 3 million. These Revolutions are by and for the middle class.

Wait ... So because the country is so poor .... That means everyone is a capitalist? Or middle class?

They are Revolting because of high food prices.

Food prices ARE politics and economics.

The Revolution though is being formented by the Bourgeois--the doctors and the lawers that have education. They are the ones interested in political change.

Thats not at all the case, its the educated and the poor, and the uneducated, infact many of the upper class are against this and nervous, there is Capital flight in Eygpt, the rich did well under Mubarak. (BTW, lawers and doctors are not the bourgeouis). This is a peoples revolution.

That being said--Jordan does not have the money to meet the growing food costs.

There are no growing food costs, those rises are not natural rises they are market manipulations.

hatzel

2nd February 2011, 12:26

Bud Struggle

2nd February 2011, 12:30

So agriculture, textiles, construction and tourism operate entirely on the labor of family-run small businesses? Hard, nay impossible, to believe. I didn't see a single factory when I was staying in South Bronx...is that devoid of workers, too? Exactly. Mostly all small businesses with under 20 people. There is vertually no economy there as I mentioed--there are 80 million people and the country has the economy of Connecticut which has 3 million people.

That's a contradiction in terms. Food IS politics. Nope.

The more the king involves himself in politics the better, I suppose. This reshuffling should contribute a bit to that. The only difference between the "king" and Mubarak is the title.

PhoenixAsh

2nd February 2011, 12:41

So agriculture, textiles, construction and tourism operate entirely on the labor of family-run small businesses? Hard, nay impossible, to believe. I didn't see a single factory when I was staying in South Bronx...is that devoid of workers, too? Exactly.

Many workshops are mostly run with children & child labour. THis is really sad. They sell, for example, carpets costing about 2000 - 250.000 US dollars and they pay the children 7 Egyptian Dollars a week. The children make on avarage two carpets a week. Exploitation was never so freaking obvious.

The defenbce of this, if there even is any, is that if they did not work there they had to work on the land and now are making more money than both their parents combined.

:crying:

RGacky3

2nd February 2011, 12:42

Nope.

Yes Bud, you know what caused the 2007 food crisis? Goldman stacks speculation, thats economics, and economics are political.

Mostly all small businesses with under 20 people. There is vertually no economy there as I mentioed

..... except your wrong, and you don't have anything to back it up, your full of shit.

there are 80 million people and the country has the economy of Connecticut which has 3 million people.

And what, most of the wealth is controlled by multi-nationals.

Devrim

2nd February 2011, 12:46

Oddly enough if you've ever been to Egypt you'd see that there are almost no factories or large places of business. Almost the entire economy is run by small businesses mostly run by families--that make a subsistence living. Most people are highly uneducated. Egypt is a very poor country.

I have been to Egypt on numerous occasions. I have been to Dekhelia, for example, where EZDK, a small family business run from some 'mom-and pops' kitchen and backyard, somehow manages to produce 4.5 million tons of steel per year. Of course the biggest problem they then face is that because Egypt is such a backward country with no modern infrastructure whatsoever, all 4.5 million tuns has to be transported to Alexandria, the nearest city, by camel.

In fact, the percentage of the labour force employed in industry is 17%, which is pretty similar to the 22% in the US, or the 18% in the UK. As for this 'highly uneducated country', in the US approximately 4.75% of the population are in tertiary education. In Egypt the figure is 6%.

Yes, it is true that Egypt is a poor country, and that the peasantry is desperately poor and lacks education, much the same as the peasantry everywhere. Those involved in agricultural production are not the overwhelming majority of the population though, and make up less than a third of the population.

Cairo on the other hand is a massive city and a huge concentration of proletarians with a population of nearly 20,000,000, just under 30% of the population.

Devrim

Bud Struggle

2nd February 2011, 12:48

Bud, I'm pretty sure the farms and factories and oil fields and such are not the places you see when you visit Egypt. Are you basing your analysis on a trip you took? (would'nt suprise me) If so your an idiot. No working class? What do people do them? Egypt is an oil importer not a producer. Most cotton (and that's Egypt's cash crop--only cash crop I believe) is harvested in small family companies.

Yes, goes left, democracy is a leftist ideal. A large part of the protest are against Capitalistic policies instituted by Mubarak (as opposed to the more state socialist Nasser), they are pissed that the economic growth has only gone to the top .... Capitalism, a lot of it is also against the fact that Mubarak is a US subservient. No it's isn't about politics--it's about the price of grain. As India and China a get richer (through Capitalism BTW) they can buy up more food--and if there are global shortages so much the worse. Egypt a country that survives basicly on US handouts (they get paid for leaving Israel alone) can't compete.

Your blind if you don't realize this is a left-populist uprising. Everything is Communist revolution to you. :)

Wait ... So because the country is so poor .... That means everyone is a capitalist? Or middle class? You can't be working class if you don't work. There is no work in Egypt--there vertually no economy.

Food prices ARE politics and economics. Food is about being hungry and they go in the direction of who could feed them. If a Fascist could promise food to Egypt they would turn in that direction.

Thats not at all the case, its the educated and the poor, and the uneducated, infact many of the upper class are against this and nervous, there is Capital flight in Eygpt, the rich did well under Mubarak. (BTW, lawers and doctors are not the bourgeouis). This is a peoples revolution. There are are about 20 rich people in Egypt and they fled. The rest of the people are middle class or poor. And if you don't consider Lawyers and Doctors Bourgeois ( I kind of do) then I guess the Revolution in Egypt is more Middle class.

There are no growing food costs, those rises are not natural rises they are market manipulations.Food production and prices since the beginning of time has been subject to weather conditions--that is not to say there haven't been manipulations. But there certainly are market shifts now that India and China have grown richer.

Bud Struggle

2nd February 2011, 12:57

I have been to Egypt on numerous occasions. I have been to Dekhelia, for example, where EZDK, a small family business run from some 'mom-and pops' kitchen and backyard, somehow manages to produce 4.5 million tons of steel per year. Of course the biggest problem they then face is that because Egypt is such a backward country with no modern infrastructure whatsoever, all 4.5 million tuns has to be transported to Alexandria, the nearest city, by camel. I didn't say there was no industry--there is very little industry and when one is outside the industrial sphere there is absolutely nothing.

In fact, the percentage of the labour force employed in industry is 17%, which is pretty similar to the 22% in the US, or the 18% in the UK. As for this 'highly uneducated country', in the US approximately 4.75% of the population are in tertiary education. In Egypt the figure is 6%. Your statistics paint a distorted picture. When you go outside the "industy" America or Connnecticut for that matter has feeder jobs and service jobs. Egypt doesn't. That's where all the poverty comes form. As far as education goes--that is only recently--the vast majority of people over 30 are uneducated.

Yes, it is true that Egypt is a poor country, and that the peasantry is desperately poor and lacks education, much the same as the peasantry everywhere. Those involved in agricultural production are not the overwhelming majority of the population though, and make up less than a third of the population. Most of the population is subsistence/employed or not employed at all.

Cairo on the other hand is a massive city and a huge concentration of proletarians with a population of nearly 20,000,000, just under 30% of the population.

Devrim I guess they are Proletarians. Lumpen Proletarian would be closer to the fact.

southernmissfan

2nd February 2011, 13:03

...I'm still yet to see anybody provide any evidence to suggest that this has anything to do with 'going left', unless we count going from centre-right to centre as 'going left', relatively speaking...

There has been some accounts of strikes, workers taking over factories and self-organized, citizen self defense committees that have popped up all over in an attempt to protect their own neighborhoods from criminals and thugs. See: Protests in Egypt, the 27 page (and counting!) thread in the Arab World Protests sub-board.

While there have been inspiring events such as these, it remains unclear (and probably unlikely) that it represents the general trend of the upheaval. Despite that, it is almost certain that success of the protest/uprising would be progressive, though the extent to which it is remains to be seen. And of course even if the uprising isn't currently left, there is still the possibility that the struggle could radicalize the workers. Particularly, that is a possibility if potential reform begins to increasingly irrelevant and/or insufficient.

Some are jumping the gun in saying that it is "going left". So far, I think you are right. But we shouldn't jump the gun from the other perspective either. The direction of this uprising is still up in the air and shouldn't be completely written off.

RGacky3

2nd February 2011, 13:06

Most cotton (and that's Egypt's cash crop--only cash crop I believe) is harvested in small family companies.

Anything to back that up? Either way theres still a large peasentry.

Egypt is an oil importer not a producer

Tons of natural cas, coal, Eygpt IS a producer of oil, look it up, they have also large telecom companies.

I don't know what your trying to argue here, are you arguing there is no class system in Eygpt? Because if thats the argument your gonna have, thats pretty embarrasing.

No it's isn't about politics--it's about the price of grain. As India and China a get richer (through Capitalism BTW) they can buy up more food--and if there are global shortages so much the worse.

You clearly don't know much about commodities markets, i.e. food prices, there is plenty of food for everyone, the rise in food prices was mainly due to financial speculation ... But again, there were many reasons for the result, food prices ARE political.

Everything is Communist revolution to you. :)

Its populist, anti-capitalist, pro-democratic ...

You can't be working class if you don't work. There is no work in Egypt--there vertually no economy.

I'm gonna need you to back that up, because your full of shit, 10% unemployment, large economy for the region, you don't know what your talking about. 27th in the World in GDP, honestly Bud your arguing something that can so easily be disproven that its embarrasing.

Food is about being hungry and they go in the direction of who could feed them. If a Fascist could promise food to Egypt they would turn in that direction.

What cause food prices to go up was market reforms .... Which are political, which people in Eygpt know .... So yeah, it is political.

There are are about 20 rich people in Egypt and they fled.

Again your full of shit and have no idea what your talking about. 40% of the population is in poverty or extreme poverty, but its the 27th larges economy, who's got that money? Or is it hiding somewhere?

And if you don't consider Lawyers and Doctors Bourgeois ( I kind of do) then I guess the Revolution in Egypt is more Middle class.

There are millions and millions of lawyers and doctors in Egypt I guess.

Bourgeois=controling means of production, thats the definition Bud.

Food production and prices since the beginning of time has been subject to weather conditions--that is not to say there haven't been manipulations. But there certainly are market shifts now that India and China have grown richer.

Yes, but its not due to weather conditions, it has to do with the food market speculation, no serious economics attributes the rising prices to India and China.

Bud your arguing things that are simply disprovable easily with hard facts, you might as well be arguing that the earth is flat. There are facts, and they are available to see, so I don't know what your trying to do here.

Face it Bud, this is a LEFTIST revolt (it sure as hell is not right wing).

RGacky3

2nd February 2011, 13:10

Some are jumping the gun in saying that it is "going left". So far, I think you are right. But we shouldn't jump the gun from the other perspective either. The direction of this uprising is still up in the air and shouldn't be completely written off.

I don't know how it will end up, but the uprising itself was leftist, almost all are.

Bud, its hard to argue against reality, pick your battles.

manic expression

2nd February 2011, 13:24

Mostly all small businesses with under 20 people. There is vertually no economy there as I mentioed--there are 80 million people and the country has the economy of Connecticut which has 3 million people.
:lol: So if a country has a GDP of $5 billion or less, there aren't any workers there! Next you're going to tell us that Hartford is entirely devoid of workers (just like Egypt and the Bronx).

And I'm still waiting for your explanation of how agriculture, construction, textiles and tourism are powered exclusively through the labor of small businessmen. It's a curious proposition, to say the least.

Nope.
Well, I accept your concession. :laugh: It goes without saying that food is as political as it gets.

RGacky3

2nd February 2011, 13:31

And I'm still waiting for your explanation

Don't hold your breath, Bud does'nt believe in backing things up, presenting evidence, or explinations.

Bud Struggle

2nd February 2011, 13:36

Anything to back that up? Either way theres still a large peasentry. I was saying all along that there was a lot of peasents. I was saying there isn't a large working proletariat.

Tons of natural cas, coal, Eygpt IS a producer of oil, look it up, they have also large telecom companies. they do produce oil but don't export an and this year they began to import it.

I don't know what your trying to argue here, are you arguing there is no class system in Eygpt? Because if thats the argument your gonna have, thats pretty embarrasing. I never said there was no "class system" in Egypt. there are certainly rich people and poor people and the difference is pretty large.

You clearly don't know much about commodities markets, i.e. food prices, there is plenty of food for everyone, the rise in food prices was mainly due to financial speculation ... But again, there were many reasons for the result, food prices ARE political. I said that speculation was a factor--I SAID THAT! OK? But global shortages because or rising demands in India and China were also a factor. It isn't just one thing.

Its populist, anti-capitalist, pro-democratic ...You are two thirds correct. Populist and pro-democratic. There is nothing to say anit-capitalist.

I'm gonna need you to back that up, because your full of shit, 10% unemployment, large economy for the region, you don't know what your talking about. 27th in the World in GDP, honestly Bud your arguing something that can so easily be disproven that its embarrasing. It could be 2000% employment and if the average hosehold income is $3000 per year it means the people are basicly starving. As far as having the largest economy in the region--your talking about what Lybia? The Sudan? Ethopia? Well, Ok. Take away oil production and the entire Middle East as the same GDP of Finland. There's not too much going on over there. That's what happens when you don't have Capitalist to start businesses and people are left to their own resources.

What cause food prices to go up was market reforms .... Which are political, which people in Eygpt know .... So yeah, it is political. There was no choice but to have market reforms--the country couldn't afford to subsidize the cost of food. It's not political--the people of Egypt have to produce more.

Again your full of shit and have no idea what your talking about. 40% of the population is in poverty or extreme poverty, but its the 27th larges economy, who's got that money? Or is it hiding somewhere? There isn't that much money. Really. There are some rich people--but the country doesn't produce much of anything that they can buy for hard currentcy.

There are millions and millions of lawyers and doctors in Egypt I guess.

Bourgeois=controling means of production, thats the definition Bud. That may be the case. But I think it's pretty disingenuous to call them Proletarian.

Yes, but its not due to weather conditions, it has to do with the food market speculation, no serious economics attributes the rising prices to India and China. No. It's all three. You just want to blame Capitalism for everything bad that happens.

Bud your arguing things that are simply disprovable easily with hard facts, you might as well be arguing that the earth is flat. There are facts, and they are available to see, so I don't know what your trying to do here. Gack--you ony see what you want to see. Good for you. Man something really pissed you off about Capitalism sometime in your life. :D

Face it Bud, this is a LEFTIST revolt (it sure as hell is not right wing).It's Centrist. Look at Tunisia: now that the Revolution has died down do you see any Red Flags flying? Anyone singing the Internationale? Tunisia's goinging to be a Western Democracy in the best sense of the word. ;))

Bud Struggle

2nd February 2011, 13:47

:lol: So if a country has a GDP of $5 billion or less, there aren't any workers there! Next you're going to tell us that Hartford is entirely devoid of workers (just like Egypt and the Bronx).

And I'm still waiting for your explanation of how agriculture, construction, textiles and tourism are powered exclusively through the labor of small businessmen. It's a curious proposition, to say the least.). Did I say anything about entirely? About 80% of the people exist in poverty situations makein subsistence living. 20% have jobs.

Well, I accept your concession. :laugh: It goes without saying that food is as political as it gets. As far as it being LEFTIST Political--it's not. But over all will hungry people support a Fascist if he feeds them--then yes it is political.

Food or lack of it could bring about a political change--but no particular ideology has a monopoly on the nature of the change.

RGacky3

2nd February 2011, 13:54

I was saying all along that there was a lot of peasents. I was saying there isn't a large working proletariat.

peasents are workers, they work for wages, and are exploited for labor, does'nt make a difference.

they do produce oil but don't export an and this year they began to import it.

And what ... THey have a lot of industry, that was the point.

I never said there was no "class system" in Egypt. there are certainly rich people and poor people and the difference is pretty large.

Yet everyone is middle class according to you ...

I said that speculation was a factor--I SAID THAT! OK? But global shortages because or rising demands in India and China were also a factor. It isn't just one thing.

Anything to back that up? That India and China are a factor? Probably not, either way its immaterial to the argument here.

You are two thirds correct. Populist and pro-democratic. There is nothing to say anit-capitalist.

Mubarak implimented tons of pro-capitalist reforms that made the poverty and class system that exists, Egyptians know the difference, so yeah, its anti-capitalist.

It could be 2000% employment and if the average hosehold income is $3000 per year it means the people are basicly starving.

And what ... thats due to Capitalism, there IS industry there and there is Capitalism and investment, but its a capitalist system, so most people are screwed.

That's what happens when you don't have Capitalist to start businesses and people are left to their own resources.

Except people are starting buisinesses and there are Capitalists, but you don't get it BUd Capitalism does'nt help poor pople.

There was no choice but to have market reforms--the country couldn't afford to subsidize the cost of food. It's not political--the people of Egypt have to produce more.

You have NOTHING to back this up, you don't have a damn clue what your talking about. Its political, it was an IMF arangement, so basically imposed by the US government. It had nothing to do with the cost of food.

There isn't that much money. Really. There are some rich people--but the country doesn't produce much of anything that they can buy for hard currentcy.

Again Bud, your arguing against facts, thats a loosing battle.

That may be the case. But I think it's pretty disingenuous to call them Proletarian.

I was joking Bud, only an idiot would think that there are millions of lawers and doctors protesting. Its not a lawer/doctor revolution.

No. It's all three. You just want to blame Capitalism for everything bad that happens.

Economically, yes, Capitalism can be blaimed for systemic failures, because thats the system, and food prices hikes were a systemic failure.

Gack--you ony see what you want to see. Good for you.

You hav'nt presented one shread of evidence for anything, at least I see something Bud, you still got your head in the sand.

It's Centrist. Look at Tunisia: now that the Revolution has died down do you see any Red Flags flying? Anyone singing the Internationale? Tunisia's goinging to be a Western Democracy in the best sense of the word. ;))

Centrist does'nt mean anything.

Red Flags/international =/= democracy and more than whigs and triangle hats mean "liberty," stop being a clown.

Man something really pissed you off about Capitalism sometime in your life.

I just value evidence and facts and logic, something aparently you are unaware of.

Bud Struggle

2nd February 2011, 13:55

And I'm still waiting for your explanation

I don't know who said that--but I'm just one lone Capitalist typing as fast as I can against an entire Red Army. :D

Devrim

2nd February 2011, 13:57

Your statistics paint a distorted picture. When you go outside the "industy" America or Connnecticut for that matter has feeder jobs and service jobs. Egypt doesn't.

According to the CIA World Fact Book, 51% of the workforce are employed in the service sector.

As far as education goes--that is only recently--the vast majority of people over 30 are uneducated.

But then the vast majority of the population of Egypt is under 30. The median age is 24.

Most of the population is subsistence/employed or not employed at all.

Would you like to back that up with some evidence?

Devrim

RGacky3

2nd February 2011, 13:57

Did I say anything about entirely? About 80% of the people exist in poverty situations makein subsistence living. 20% have jobs

10% unemployment, you know, we can look things up ....

As far as it being LEFTIST Political--it's not. But over all will hungry people support a Fascist if he feeds them--then yes it is political.

Food or lack of it could bring about a political change--but no particular ideology has a monopoly on the nature of the change.

First its food prices ... (not that people are starving to death), second, its pro-democracy, anti-capitalist and populist. Its not a specific ideology, but it is for leftist issues.

RGacky3

2nd February 2011, 13:59

And I'm still waiting for your explanation

Of what ... I've explained quite a bit, you hav'nt really done any.

I don't know who said that--but I'm just one lone Capitalist typing as fast as I can against an entire Red Army.

Take some time off and do research.

Devrim

2nd February 2011, 14:01

peasents are workers, they work for wages, and are exploited for labor, does'nt make a difference.

Peasants are not workers, and they don't work for wages. That is what defines them as a class. There is a difference between the peasantry and agricultural workers. Agricultural workers work for wages. Peasants own their own land.

Devrim

RGacky3

2nd February 2011, 14:03

Agricultural workers work for wages. Peasants own their own land.

I meant peasants as agricultural workers (which make up most of agricultural labor nowerdays).

Devrim

2nd February 2011, 14:07

I meant peasants as agricultural workers (which make up most of agricultural labor nowerdays).

But that is not what the term 'peasant' means in English. Nor am I sure that agricultural workers make up the majority of those employed in agriculture. That may be the case in the West, but I would imagine that it is quite different in Egypt.

Devrim

hatzel

2nd February 2011, 14:12

...I'm not sure what any of this has to do with the claim that this is a leftist revolution...:confused:

Bud Struggle

2nd February 2011, 14:20

According to the CIA World Fact Book, 51% of the workforce are employed in the service sector. The average income is $3000. They are poor. If you have a job and it doesn't pay you enough to eat--what's the difference. And if you've been there you know exactly what that "service sector" means. It means people begging on the street to shilling some concoction thay are cooking in some tent. Those aren't jobs.

But then the vast majority of the population of Egypt is under 30. The median age is 24. I agree. But there still a lot ofver 40 and then you can question the quality of the education, too. I don't see the country as being vastly educated.

Would you like to back that up with some evidence?

Devrim
The average per capita income is around $3000. (Up from 1/2 of that a couple of years ago.) That's not much money. You figure that the people in industry have some substantial jobs and that leaves the rest--the 80 % wiith little to nothing.

Kiev Communard

2nd February 2011, 14:42

Egypt is undoubtedly a capitalist economy, albeit with the traces of the previous, tributary, mode of production in agriculture. The main trend of its development, however, is still skewed towards the increasing industrialization, urban migration of rural workforce and the establishment of modern oligopolistic capitalist corporation uniting industrial and financial capital. Such companies as Arab American Vehicles[/URL[URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EZDK"]], EZDK (Arab American Vehicles), Talaat Moustafa Group (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talaat_Moustafa_Group) or Abu Qir Fertilizers Company could hardly be called "small business", and it is their owners, together with the bureaucratic capitalists in the state sector, who are most influential among the Egyptian bourgeoisie. The ICT market, for instance, is completely monopolised, with just two companies, Mobinil (itself subsidiary to France Télécom) and Vodafone, literally exercising a duopoly on the cellular phones market up until 2006. So I can't see how some may deny that the capitalism exists in Egypt at quite high level.

Bud Struggle

2nd February 2011, 14:57

So I can't see how some may deny that the capitalism exists in Egypt at quite high level.

I agree what Mubarak hade done over the last 20 years is change Egypt from a corrupt Socialistic economy to a corrupt Capitalistic economy.

Now the PCI has gone up significantly since the change, but it still is economically depressed and corrupt. Time for a real democracy.

manic expression

2nd February 2011, 15:02

And I'm still waiting for your explanation

I don't know who said that--
Me. Have fun dancing around reality. You can repeat your ridiculous claim that Egypt doesn't have any workers as much as you want, you're so very obviously wrong, and the facts have borne this out.

but I'm just one lone Capitalist typing as fast as I can against an entire Red Army. :D
No, you're trying to argue against an entire army of facts. You're not winning, though.

Devrim

2nd February 2011, 15:07

The average income is $3000. They are poor.

Actually 2008 figures, the most recent available, give $5,500. That is not to say that it is not a poor country, and of course average income is always much higher than median income, which gives a more accurate understanding.

However, it is not $5,500 dollars living in the US. I live in the capital city of our country, Turkey, and rent a three bedroomed apartment for 600TL ($378) per month. What would you get in Washington D.C. for that? Of course Egypt is much much cheaper than Turkey. That doesn't mean that it is a rich country, but working class people with families would get by on what would be poverty wages for a single person in the US.

If you have a job and it doesn't pay you enough to eat--what's the difference.

And what is the price of bread in Egypt?

And if you've been there you know exactly what that "service sector" means. It means people begging on the street to shilling some concoction thay are cooking in some tent. Those aren't jobs.

And nor are they counted in these sort of statistics, which are based on the legally working tax paying population. Of course there is a massive 'black' sector, where people are shockingly underemployed. It isn't counted in official statistics though, and those people are generally counted amongst the unemployed.

I agree. But there still a lot ofver 40 and then you can question the quality of the education, too. I don't see the country as being vastly educated.

Personally I think you could ask the same questions about US education particularly at undergrad level. I don't see Egypt as being 'vastly educated'. Nevertheless, it is some way from how you portray it.

As the median age is 24, obviously the vast majority of the population is under forty.

Devrim

Bud Struggle

2nd February 2011, 15:09

Me. Have fun dancing around reality. You can repeat your ridiculous claim that Egypt doesn't have any workers as much as you want, you're so very obviously wrong, and the facts have borne this out.

I'm arguing that Egypt has a small dysfunctional Proletariat. You seem to think there are a great number of real workers out there. There are some--I guess they are maybe 20% of the population. The other 80% do something to make a few piastres but I wold hardly call them "workers" as the term is used in the Western world. They are for the most part eith peasents or small shop owners.

Kiev Communard

2nd February 2011, 15:12

I agree what Mubarak hade done over the last 20 years is change Egypt from a corrupt Socialistic economy to a corrupt Capitalistic economy.

Now the PCI has gone up significantly since the change, but it still is economically depressed and corrupt. Time for a real democracy.

The thing is, they have never been "socialist" in Soviet sense, as even under Nasser's there did not exist anything approaching total state ownership of means of production and totalising plan of economic development. Rather, Nasserite Egypt could be compared to Latin American variant of import-substitution state-led capitalism.

manic expression

2nd February 2011, 15:16

I'm arguing that Egypt has a small dysfunctional Proletariat. You seem to think there are a great number of real workers out there. There are some--I guess they are maybe 20% of the population. The other 80% do something to make a few piastres but I wold hardly call them "workers" as the term is used in the Western world. They are for the most part eith peasents or small shop owners.
So 80% of Egyptians are either peasants or small shop owners. OK. So apparently, peasants aren't workers, and small shop owners constitute almost half the population. :lol: How more absurd are you going to get?

Bud Struggle

2nd February 2011, 15:26

Actually 2008 figures, the most recent available, give $5,500. That is not to say that it is not a poor country, and of course average income is always much higher than median income, which gives a more accurate understanding.

However, it is not $5,500 dollars living in the US. I live in the capital city of our country, Turkey, and rent a three bedroomed apartment for 600TL ($378) per month. What would you get in Washington D.C. for that? Of course Egypt is much much cheaper than Turkey. That doesn't mean that it is a rich country, but working class people with families would get by on what would be poverty wages for a single person in the US.

Here's a interesting chart--a bit out of date.

Indicator [2] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_of_Egypt#cite_note-1)19811991200120052006GDP (PPP) per capita, (US$)1,354.812,524.993,685.984,316.594,534.82GDP per capita at constant prices, (EGP)3,121.854,075.475,138.365,519.095,692.24GDP per capita at current prices, (EGP)411.202,098.715,493.287,890.658,707.88GDP per capita at current prices, (US$)587.42869.301,460.981,315.751,517.85

[Edit] That didn't turn out too well--I have to ge but I be back later.

At USA current prices people in Egypt are only making $1,500. Very much not much. I don't know what the price of a loaf of bread is--but these people have no buying power and if grain is bought on the open market. You can see where the trouble come in.

And nor are they counted in these sort of statistics, which are based on the legally working tax paying population.I don't know if that's the case.

Of course there is a massive 'black' sector, where people are shockingly underemployed. It isn't counted in official statistics though, and those people are generally counted amongst the unemployed. I was counting those people in--then I can't believe that the unemployment is around the same as the USA--10%. There is a problem there.

Personally I think you could ask the same questions about US education particularly at undergrad level. I don't see Egypt as being 'vastly educated'. Nevertheless, it is some way from how you portray it. I seem to think the education of the people is less than what you do, there are few universities and those are far from first rate. I would say the population is literate--nothing much more than that.

As the median age is 24, obviously the vast majority of the population is under forty.

Devrim They are.

RGacky3

2nd February 2011, 17:53

I was counting those people in--then I can't believe that the unemployment is around the same as the USA--10%. There is a problem there.

Both countries are probably around 16 or 18%, at least the US, I don't know how unemployment in Eygpt is counted.

I'm arguing that Egypt has a small dysfunctional Proletariat. You seem to think there are a great number of real workers out there. There are some--I guess they are maybe 20% of the population. The other 80% do something to make a few piastres but I wold hardly call them "workers" as the term is used in the Western world. They are for the most part eith peasents or small shop owners.

All these numbers came out of your ass, they arn't even believable, the majority of eygptians are most likely wage workers, its the 27th largest economy in the world, with lots of poverty (workers are poor Bud).

either way the majority of the population did worse with market reforms and have an interest in rolling back capitalism.

But your argument about the working class in Eygpt is'nt based on anything, and unless you ahve some data to base it from its meaningless.

Dean

2nd February 2011, 17:54

I was saying all along that there was a lot of peasents. I was saying there isn't a large working proletariat.

Apparently you're invoking a Marxist model to determine whether or not the movement is leftist. That's a poor argument, but let's see if you're right (though as Gacky says, democracy is a leftist ideal).

Marx proposes two conditions in particular for the proletarian class to develop a class-consciousness. The first is the exploitation of labor, which is clearly happening in any case. The second is the co-operative character of labor; i.e., that the working class congregates in groups which work for a third party - capitalists, royalty, families, whatever - they work for property-owners who own the fruits of their labor.

Clearly, the conditions are met. The west is attempting to accentuate the influence of the class they would like to see take the reigns: the bourgeois. But this is a massive popular uprising against the exploitation and expropriation of the Egyptian people. It's not hard to see that reaction against that is leftist.

Devrim

10th February 2011, 10:26

At USA current prices people in Egypt are only making $1,500. Very much not much. I don't know what the price of a loaf of bread is--but these people have no buying power and if grain is bought on the open market. You can see where the trouble come in.

I didn't understand your chart, but of course when comparing to the US you have to remember that the cost of labour is a huge part of the price of any commodity. In countries where the price of labour is so low locally produced commodities are invariably correspondingly cheaper. Added to that is the fact that bread is subsidized massively in Egypt.

To give an example of what I mean in real terms, and not using abstract GDP figures, public sector manual workers in this country earn between 1,200-1,400TL a month, around $10,000 a year. Obviously this is a lot higher than a corresponding job in the USA let alone Northern Europe, and those people are probably poorer here, but not considerably so.

And nor are they counted in these sort of statistics, which are based on the legally working tax paying population.I don't know if that's the case.

It is.

I was counting those people in--then I can't believe that the unemployment is around the same as the USA--10%. There is a problem there.

Yes, the problem is that states lie about unemployment figures everywhere. Real unemployment figures in Turkey are about double the official rate. I would imagine something similar applies in Egypt.

I seem to think the education of the people is less than what you do, there are few universities and those are far from first rate. I would say the population is literate--nothing much more than that.

You could say the same about the US.

Devrim