Strange coincidence

[Bandito]

If this is more than just a pure coincidence, it seems that protests in Egypt are being controlled by the CIA. This is a symbol largely used in the protests against Mubarak:

http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc6/hs280.snc6/180875_493753852675_586357675_6431451_4560413_n.jp g

...while this is a symbol of the CIA-funded movement called Otpor (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Otpor%21) (Resistance) in Serbia. The movement existed for a brief time when Milosevic' regime was collapsing and were the major movement in the protests against Milosevic.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/sr/a/a7/Otpor.jpg

The movement received an MTV award called "Free your mind" (http://www.casttv.com/video/cb8rea/otpor-members-receiving-mtv-s-free-your-mind-award-video) and also were involved in organized the protests in Ukraine, which gave them international character. The members of this CIA-funded movement actually flew from Serbia to Ukraine, organizing a protest which later became "Orange revolution".
The "revolution" was taken to another country after their success in Serbia and Ukraine to Georgia, where they "instructed" students in the organization called "Kmara!".
After that success, they made another international appearance in Kyrgyzstan, where they created, instructed and funded the movement called "KelKel".

Now they appeared in Egypt. Notice that all "revolutions" they were involved in made way for people who are very fond of America to come to power. So it might be that the uprising is nothing more than a change in power, with another US candidate being selected for the Egyptian presidential chair.

Here is a good article (http://notmytribe.com/2007/from-y-to-v-the-cias-otpor-strategy-to-overthrow-governments-81340.html) that makes sense of the CIA's way to overthrow governments.

Also, here is a list of all countries and movements that these agents made their way in:

http://www.vesti-online.com/data/images/2011-01-29/126908_013004s2_iff.jpg?ver=1296379332

Like the situation when Milosevic was strip from his powers, this is a PEOPLE's uprising. Nobody is trying to question that. But it seems that CIA's hands are deep into this situation as well.

[PhoenixAsh]

That is strange indeed.


I wouldn't be surprised if the CIA is micro managing. This may seem strange at first given the position of the US government. But the CIA usually has their own agenda. Basically a logical reasoning behind this from the CIA perspective is undermining the policy to reduce troops and funding for the wars against terror by creating a new hot spot.

[Jimmie Higgins]

Now they appeared in Egypt. Notice that all "revolutions" they were involved in made way for people who are very fond of America to come to power. So it might be that the uprising is nothing more than a change in power, with another US candidate being selected for the Egyptian presidential chair. I don't think a shaking of the Egyptian regime is at all in the US's interests. Yes, having influence among the democratic national forces if this protest movement does topple the regime is in their interests and no doubt the US is making maneuvers in case that happens. But short of that, the US will most likely do all it can to preserve the status quo in Egypt.

With the ongoing economic shocks to the economy: a need to push austerity and prevent uprisings due to food price fluctuations and generally ram a broken neo-liberal system even further onto the people of the world, increased imperialist competition, the last thing the US wants are examples of people effectively resisting these conditions. I think the tendency for the US will be to increasingly rely on dictators and strong-men that can effectively repress the population.

[PhoenixAsh]

Well....if you look at the stock markets....they are plumething. Making Egytian assets cheaper than ever. Ample opportunity for traders who want to take risks.

[Sentinel]

Like the situation when Milosevic was strip from his powers, this is a PEOPLE's uprising. Nobody is trying to question that. But it seems that CIA's hands are deep into this situation as well.Indeed, if not a coincidence this mainly seems to indicate that the CIA is actively trying to infiltrate/take over the movement -- I guess it would be surprising if they didn't do that --- rather than them being behind it from the start.

This sounds like a professional group of some kind, sent by the CIA to whereever there is a revolution in order to hijack it and steer it to the right. But I won't say any more now, before I hear more. These are just my spontaneous thoughts.

[Tommy4ever]

Some outlandish theories forced forward by the use of a raised fist symbol - amongst the most common in workers' movements. :rolleyes:

[danyboy27]

this kind of symbol is easy to find over the internet.

i know folks who can create label out of internet pictures and then iron it on big piece of cloth.

[Crux]

Even if that were the case, conspiracies like these actually do not control the world but tend to fail. Only who remembers failed conspiracies? The power of the masses is greater.

[Bandito]

Even if that were the case, conspiracies like these actually do not control the world but tend to fail. Only who remembers failed conspiracies? The power of the masses is greater.
This is not a conspiracy theory, but a proven fact. When I was a teenager I used to put stickers and banners of that movement all around my city in 2000. myself and actually believed that they were for real. Note all countries that they were involved in. Literally all of them were "successful" and in literally every single one a clique close to US came to power. And the fact that they are funded, founded and kept working by the Central Intelligence Agency is no secret, or a conspiracy. They spoke about it openly.

[scarletghoul]

:laugh: is this a joke ?
Its a raised fist symbol, they occur at protests.

[ZeroNowhere]

Some outlandish theories forced forward by the use of a raised fist symbol - amongst the most common in workers' movements. :rolleyes:
I think it's clear that you are a CIA agent.

[Martin Blank]

I doubt the CIA is in the working-class neighborhoods of Cairo and Alexandria, organizing popular committees, armed workers' self-defense, worker-to-worker public services (sanitation, food distributions, etc.) and, in a growing number of shops and factories, workers' control of production. Let Egypt's scared petty bourgeois wave their little flags and kiss the cops. Egypt's workers are still leading the way.

[Widerstand]

This is not a conspiracy theory, but a proven fact. When I was a teenager I used to put stickers and banners of that movement all around my city in 2000. myself and actually believed that they were for real. Note all countries that they were involved in. Literally all of them were "successful" and in literally every single one a clique close to US came to power. And the fact that they are funded, founded and kept working by the Central Intelligence Agency is no secret, or a conspiracy. They spoke about it openly.

That's no proof for the CIA being in Egypt though.

Fuck I've seen that symbol so many times in my life, I guess the German left is really the CIA.

[Bandito]

Again.
These are the symbols of organizations who were founded, led, instructed and financially helped by the members of Otpor.

http://www.vesti-online.com/data/images/2011-01-29/126908_013004s2_iff.jpg?ver=1296379332

They are exactly the same, and that is not some coincidence, but a signature, which they not only don't hide, but are proud of. They received an MTV award for spreading such "democracy" in Serbia and continued to work around the planet

And it's a very distinct sign, and not just some random raised fist.

[Nolan]

It does look like the exact same symbol. Not just any fist.

[Bandito]

I think Sentinel captured the essence of what's going on.


Indeed, if not a coincidence this mainly seems to indicate that the CIA is actively trying to infiltrate/take over the movement -- I guess it would be surprising if they didn't do that --- rather than them being behind it from the start.

This sounds like a professional group of some kind, sent by the CIA to whereever there is a revolution in order to hijack it and steer it to the right. But I won't say any more now, before I hear more. These are just my spontaneous thoughts.

[Spawn of Stalin]

What people consider to be conspiracy theories is pretty relative. I tell people that bankers and capitalists control the world, they call me a conspiracy theorist, I tell people Israel's agenda is to wipe out as many Palestinians as they can, they call me a conspiracy theorist. That the CIA organises civil unrest in countries all over the world is far from a theory, it's just true. I'm not saying the Egypt protests have anything to do with the CIA...but I'm not saying they don't. I haven't really had time to follow the story close enough to make any judgements.

That's no proof for the CIA being in Egypt though.
The CIA are in every country.

[danyboy27]

just like your wiki article said:
n addition to greatly contributing to Slobodan Milošević's overthrow, Otpor has become the model for similar youth movements around Eastern Europe.[4] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Otpor%21#cite_note-guardian20050606-3) For this Otpor members have been called "revolution exporters".


this is not really surprising that their tactics and symbolics are endlessly copied by many group of people worldwide.

[PhoenixAsh]

http://voices.washingtonpost.com/spy-talk/2011/01/the_cias_complicated_relations.html

[L.A.P.]

I find it a bit weird and amusing how all the CIA-led movements have the same symbol, that's some Illuminati conspiracy shit.

[danyboy27]

I find it a bit weird and amusing how all the CIA-led movements have the same symbol, that's some Illuminati conspiracy shit.

its beccause they are not necessarly all led by the CIA.

[Sugar Hill Kevis]

If the CIA is trying to co-opt the rebellion in Egypt, I'm sure they're employing more intelligent tactics than the recycling of logos of movements they're funded in history. Discretion and that, y'know? Maybe they'll just use the eye of providence next time ;)

[renzo_novatore]

I'm wondering - I remember reading some time ago from julian assange that there are several leaders of the middle east who are puppets for the us and he'd release the names of those leaders if they do anything to him. Perhaps, now I'm not sure, but perhaps the cia is in there to take out that leader in order to cover themselves from any wikileaks release (?). Maybe they're planning to go ahead and take out julian assange and they're doing things like this, so they can prepare themselves from any horrible releases. This is all just a guess though.

[Bandito]

If the CIA is trying to co-opt the rebellion in Egypt, I'm sure they're employing more intelligent tactics than the recycling of logos of movements they're funded in history. Discretion and that, y'know? Maybe they'll just use the eye of providence next time ;)
Well, they used it five times in five different countries in the past decade. Always seemed to work.

[Wanted Man]

That's pretty interesting.

Leftists completely misunderstand the way the CIA works most of the time. They either think that the CIA supports evil dictators 100% of the time, or that they constantly try to instigate "colour revolutions". This means that either we should support all movements against these dictators, or denounce them all, because in either case, the other side has 100% backing from the monolithic evil organisation called the CIA. This is completely wrong. What is more important than anything is plausible deniability.

The CIA will support the Mubaraks and Ben-Alis of this world for as long as is possible, but when these dictatorships have passed their date of expiration, they are just as willing to help some more liberal leader (either from the old regime or some loyal oppositionist) ride the waves of a popular uprising. The fist symbol is just the most visible example of how, when this happens, genuine popular movements are deprived of their creativity and co-opted into cookie-cutter liberal civil disobedience style ones. Another example is the systematic naming of "colour revolutions", the obsession with Twitter and Facebook, etc.

I don't see why people are suddenly so confident that "the working-class is still in charge of the movement" and that full revolutions will take place. If it was that easy to tell, why haven't all the "colour revolutions" produced socialism as well? Clearly Egypt, Tunisia, etc. are still very much in the balance, and working-class forces can't become complacent and think they're done, and we should not spread that illusion here.

[Dimentio]

If this is more than just a pure coincidence, it seems that protests in Egypt are being controlled by the CIA. This is a symbol largely used in the protests against Mubarak:

http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc6/hs280.snc6/180875_493753852675_586357675_6431451_4560413_n.jp g

...while this is a symbol of the CIA-funded movement called Otpor (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Otpor%21) (Resistance) in Serbia. The movement existed for a brief time when Milosevic' regime was collapsing and were the major movement in the protests against Milosevic.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/sr/a/a7/Otpor.jpg

The movement received an MTV award called "Free your mind" (http://www.casttv.com/video/cb8rea/otpor-members-receiving-mtv-s-free-your-mind-award-video) and also were involved in organized the protests in Ukraine, which gave them international character. The members of this CIA-funded movement actually flew from Serbia to Ukraine, organizing a protest which later became "Orange revolution".
The "revolution" was taken to another country after their success in Serbia and Ukraine to Georgia, where they "instructed" students in the organization called "Kmara!".
After that success, they made another international appearance in Kyrgyzstan, where they created, instructed and funded the movement called "KelKel".

Now they appeared in Egypt. Notice that all "revolutions" they were involved in made way for people who are very fond of America to come to power. So it might be that the uprising is nothing more than a change in power, with another US candidate being selected for the Egyptian presidential chair.

Here is a good article (http://notmytribe.com/2007/from-y-to-v-the-cias-otpor-strategy-to-overthrow-governments-81340.html) that makes sense of the CIA's way to overthrow governments.

Also, here is a list of all countries and movements that these agents made their way in:

http://www.vesti-online.com/data/images/2011-01-29/126908_013004s2_iff.jpg?ver=1296379332

Like the situation when Milosevic was strip from his powers, this is a PEOPLE's uprising. Nobody is trying to question that. But it seems that CIA's hands are deep into this situation as well.

I don't think they are deep into this. But now when the protests seem unstoppable, they believe that creating movements that will be able to steer the outcome in a desired manner is a better choice than to support a leader who is unable to govern.

[Die Rote Fahne]

I really don't suspect any CIA influence or agitation occurring.

Especially in such a volatile region.

What interest would the US government have in toppling Egypt? You think Obama actually cares if Egypt gains democracy? At the cost of compliance with Israeli policy?

[PhoenixAsh]

I really don't suspect any CIA influence or agitation occurring.

Especially in such a volatile region.

What interest would the US government have in toppling Egypt? You think Obama actually cares if Egypt gains democracy? At the cost of compliance with Israeli policy?

The CIA does not always follow government interests.

But as the protests happened they would want some influence and control.

[Red Commissar]

I can't comment on the bit about symbol similarities, but regarding the US and possible involvement in the movements- it's very well possible.

The US won't put all its eggs in one basket (Mubarak), and as such they have plans in the event that it does go to the point that Mubarak is gone. Namely, that the leader that emerges will still be receptive to their plans in the region and cooperate with them.

I think ElBaradei represents this and the other "major" force in Egypt's political scene- The Muslim Brotherhood- among others have thrown their support behind him. Same goes for possible candidates within the military or other politicians already within the state apparatus.

[Sentinel]

I think Sentinel captured the essence of what's going on.

Just for the record, like I said I'm not convinced about it at all. I was only speculating, this was the first time I heard about this.

But from the information presented, I think it's possible (I guess.. :unsure:).

[Nolan]

Yeah i agree with Sentinel. It's certainly possible, but all we've seen so far is a suspicious symbol on a flag that could have been taken off the internet and adopted by a lot of protesters for all we know.

If this does turn out to be some Otpor-like stooge, then I'm sure Egyptians will sound the alarm.

[A Revolutionary Tool]

This is a symbol largely used in the protests against Mubarak
Source? Because out of all the videos and pictures of the protests I've seen that's the only picture I've seen with that symbol in it. If it was largely used in the protests I think some of us would have spotted huge crowds with these symbols, which I haven't.

[bcbm]

clicky (http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=9973986703)
clicky (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/April_6_Youth_Movement)

[Nolan]

Haha I go to the facebook group and one person has Che as his profile pic.

[bcbm]

i'm not taking a stance either way just providing some links. i'm sure there are spy agencies in the streets and muddling around to protect their interests, but undoubtedly these movements attract lots of people who do want a serious change in their society

[Lacrimi de Chiciură]

According to this article from the Huffington Post (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/stephen-zunes/serbia-10-years-later_b_216856.html) "Otpor!" leaders did get involved with Egypt. The paragraph after that also gets into US funding.


With the success of the democratic revolution, Otpor was unable to sustain itself as an independent movement and eventually dissolved. In 2002, some of Otpor's former leaders founded the Centre for Applied Nonviolent Action and Strategies (CANVAS). This independent NGO disseminated the lessons learned from their successful nonviolent struggle through scores of trainings and workshops for pro-democracy activists and others around the world, including Egypt, Palestine, Western Sahara, West Papua, Eritrea, Belarus, Azerbaijan, Tonga, Burma and Zimbabwe as well as labor, anti-war, and immigration rights activists in the United States.


CANVAS leaders such as Srdja Popovic and Ivan Marovic have advised pro-democracy activists against taking money from U.S.-funded agencies such as the National Endowment for Democracy (NED), as they did while in Otpor. Recognizing how autocratic regimes can use such funding to discredit opposition movements, Popovic and Marovic have criticized NED and similar groups as undermining pro-democracy struggles around the world, due to what they see as its political agenda on behalf of the U.S. government. They remain harsh critics of U.S. imperialism, repeatedly denouncing U.S military intervention in Serbia, Iraq, and Afghanistan, as well as U.S. support for armed rebel groups around the world. Popovic — whose mother narrowly escaped death when U.S. forces bombed her building in 1999 — was among the CANVAS trainers for the pro-democracy movement in the Maldives prior to their victorious struggle (http://www.opendemocracy.net/india/article/stephen_zunes/maldives_nonviolent_conflict) against the autocratic U.S.-backed regime of Mahmoud Gayoom. He recently returned to the archipelago to support an effort to rescind the government's recognition of Kosovo, during which it was revealed (http://balkaninsight.com/en/main/news/18194/) that government's decision had been influenced by a $2 million bribe.

[punisa]

While this is indeed a very interesting topic that we should discuss in more details later, I believe what happened in Egypt is a coincidence.
Why?
Because once tech savvy graphic designers look for logos they usually use Google Images and had probably stumbled upon this symbol and thus re-printed it in larger versions.

If this was indeed led by CIA we would probably see much more of the same symbols.

[Jimmie Higgins]

I'm wondering - I remember reading some time ago from julian assange that there are several leaders of the middle east who are puppets for the us and he'd release the names of those leaders if they do anything to him. Perhaps, now I'm not sure, but perhaps the cia is in there to take out that leader in order to cover themselves from any wikileaks release (?). Maybe they're planning to go ahead and take out julian assange and they're doing things like this, so they can prepare themselves from any horrible releases. This is all just a guess though.

Even when the mass movements are in Iran, the US gets a bit nervous. Historically, they always choose a top-down method of regime change unless a popular revolt happens on its own and they can merely take advantage of it. Something that brings all classes into play - like an upheaval of this magnitude - is too unpredictable for the US, if they wanted to replace the dictator they would have had someone already in power and part of the regime replace him. If that didn't work, they'd stage a coup, if that didn't work, they'd assassinate, and so on. The US tends only to organize popular forces to counter even more popular forces otherwise the furthest they tend to go is supporting existing terrorist movements or opposition movements to be a thorn in the side of the regime they can't quite replace yet.

We shouldn't suspect a conspiracy when the population becomes active against a dictator who represses people while they starve because staple food prices have skyrocketed and billionaires bathe in filthy IMF loans. The conspiracy is not the uprising, the conspiracy is what keeps the uprising from happening sooner.

[Hasek]

I do not think the whole movement in Egypt or Tunisia is controlled by the CIA, that sounds a little bit conspirationist. The insurrections in northern Africa have a clear sign, which is in counter of the high price of food, and the youth unemployment. In that way, their only exit to the situation, is starting the socialization of the means of production, for garanting people primary necessitieis. If there is a new government (It does not really matter if it is proUS or not), the situation there will go worse, nobody can replace the bad situations only doing new laws.

[Cane Nero]

I don´t understand why the CIA always use the same symbols in their "fabricated revolutions".
You think they would be so stupid to leave a trail so obvious to link the CIA with these revolutions?

[Bandito]

From April 6 Youth Movement's wiki:

The April 6 movement is using the same symbols as the Otpor! (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Otpor%21) movement from Serbia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serbia), that helped bring down the regime of Slobodan Milosevic (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slobodan_Milosevic) and whose tactics were later used in Ukraine (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ukraine) and Georgia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Georgia).
Yep, they seem the same as the organizations listed above.

[Widerstand]

According to this article from the Huffington Post (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/stephen-zunes/serbia-10-years-later_b_216856.html) "Otpor!" leaders did get involved with Egypt. The paragraph after that also gets into US funding.

ppl srsly need to read this post


I don´t understand why the CIA always use the same symbols in their "fabricated revolutions".
You think they would be so stupid to leave a trail so obvious to link the CIA with these revolutions?


From April 6 Youth Movement's wiki:

Yep, they seem the same as the organizations listed above.

Or they could all just be inspired by that organization.

[RedTrackWorker]

I doubt the CIA is in the working-class neighborhoods of Cairo and Alexandria, organizing popular committees, armed workers' self-defense, worker-to-worker public services (sanitation, food distributions, etc.) and, in a growing number of shops and factories, workers' control of production. Let Egypt's scared petty bourgeois wave their little flags and kiss the cops. Egypt's workers are still leading the way.

Can you share your info on the workers' control of production in Egypt?

[Sasha]

Otper was way more funded by ngo's and the eu than the cia. It was for sure not "fabricated" let alone "led" by the cia. I have some friends who where pretty involved in the serbian uprising and like egypt it was primarily an spontaneous youth uprising with as only demand to oust the regime. As that happend there was no goal anymore leaving an gap that liberal capitalism quickly recognized and seized.
people here are grossly simplifying how both uprisings and intelligence organations function.

[vyborg]

So millions of people in Tunisia, Egypt and Albania...moves because the CIA told them to do it....this theory is so convenient ....for the CIA itself...

luckily this is all bullshit...

[Bandito]

So millions of people in Tunisia, Egypt and Albania...moves because the CIA told them to do it....this theory is so convenient ....for the CIA itself...

luckily this is all bullshit...

Luckilly, you didn't even bother to read the thread. Nobody is saying that, rather that they are infiltrating the protests.

[RadioRaheem84]

Why is it so hard to believe that the CIA dispatched a group to infiltrate the protests and steer any social change to be US friendly? The US wants Mubarak to stay but will also play it's other card and try to make the protests steer rightward.


This is not a conspiracy theory.

[chegitz guevara]

Of course they are infiltrating events. That's their job! They'd be a pretty piss poor spy agency if they didn't engage with such things. And with out a doubt, they are trying to nudge the revolution in a more pro-American, pro-capitalist direction. That's what they do.

[vyborg]

What infiltrating does it mean? This is a nonsense. If you mean there are agents of the CIA or Mossad or MI6 or wathever among millions in the streets this is obvious and irrelevant.

The topic is meant to create the idea that the revolution is a mockery from the start. we know very well this plot mental illness...

I repeat, luckily, this is only a silly brain in action, not the truth.

[Bandito]

What infiltrating does it mean? This is a nonsense. If you mean there are agents of the CIA or Mossad or MI6 or wathever among millions in the streets this is obvious and irrelevant.

The topic is meant to create the idea that the revolution is a mockery from the start. we know very well this plot mental illness...

I repeat, luckily, this is only a silly brain in action, not the truth.

Only if you consider one of the largest youth movements (http://www.ibtimes.com/articles/107387/20110201/what-is-egypt-s-april-6-movement.htm) "one in a million".