Visiting North Korea

[The Idler]

I know plenty of visitors to North Korea have done photoessays but I thought I would share this one because its a Russian tourist (hence the dodgy English) and its quite long (found it at reddit)
How it's like to live in North Korea (http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:8Dcxa3JBWAMJ:www.mrlevek.com/northkorea.htm+%3Ca%20href=)

[Kotze]

And here are some stunning pics by a DPRK fanatic (http://www.forocomunista.com/t5729-fotos-de-las-cronicas-de-un-viaje-a-corea).

[Pretty Flaco]

That is so eerily creepy...

[IHateCorporations]

This photo essay seems to have a large anti-DPRK bias. I am very suspicious of things like this. This guy may be a propaganda agent.

[StalinFanboy]

Man North Korea looks pretty boring.

[hatzel]

Man North Korea looks pretty boring.

"These are our Potemkin villages. Even they're boring. You...won't want to see the rest..."

[Tablo]

Pretty much what I expected it all to look like. It isn't awful, but it is the most modern city in the country...

[el_chavista]

And here are some stunning pics by a DPRK fanatic (http://www.forocomunista.com/t5729-fotos-de-las-cronicas-de-un-viaje-a-corea).
¿ Is he the same Spanish guy who coöperates with the north Korean web page forum in Spanish language http://www.korea-dpr.com/cgi-bin/simpleforum.cgi/simpleforum.cgi?fid=08

[Marxach-Léinínach]

Man, I'd love to go there. Problem is I've got no money, then on top of that flying isn't exactly my favourite means of transport either.

EDIT: I forgot the rather big issue that I can't speak any Korean either lol

[gorillafuck]

These cities aren't creepy. The only reason people find them creepy is because they're in North Korea.

[DaringMehring]

These cities aren't creepy. The only reason people find them creepy is because they're in North Korea.

Yeah I've seen far worse in 3rd world capitalist hellholes, in Africa or South Asia.

[Blackscare]

And here are some stunning pics by a DPRK fanatic (http://www.forocomunista.com/t5729-fotos-de-las-cronicas-de-un-viaje-a-corea).

I just hate that smug look on his face in every picture of him.

[Obs]

That is so eerily creepy...

Yeah I know, it's like there are, *gasp*, good parts and bad parts of North Korea. It's almost as if the average standard of living is slightly above the norm for East Asia! The horror!

Yes, the DPRK has towns and neighbourhoods where life is hard. No, it's not a fucking paradise. But please, before you call it some kind of horrifying hellhole, go to the slums of Mumbai, go to a Bangladeshi country village - go almost anywhere else in Asia, and you'll see much, much worse living conditions. Remember that you'll be seeing that in India, which has a booming industry and amiable relations with the US is telling - while the DPRK has been under economic and military siege for almost 60 years now.


EDIT: I forgot the rather big issue that I can't speak any Korean either lol
You don't have to speak Korean to go to the DPRK. It helps if you want to talk with regular folks, obviously, but it's not a necessity.

[StalinFanboy]

Yeah I know, it's like there are, *gasp*, good parts and bad parts of North Korea. It's almost as if the average standard of living is slightly above the norm for East Asia! The horror!

Yes, the DPRK has towns and neighbourhoods where life is hard. No, it's not a fucking paradise. But please, before you call it some kind of horrifying hellhole, go to the slums of Mumbai, go to a Bangladeshi country village - go almost anywhere else in Asia, and you'll see much, much worse living conditions. Remember that you'll be seeing that in India, which has a booming industry and amiable relations with the US is telling - while the DPRK has been under economic and military siege for almost 60 years now.

My issue with DPRK is the intensity of control.

[Sir Comradical]

There's a picture where he mentions that they serve drinks in reusable mugs as if it's some weird totalitarian conspiracy. What's wrong with that? Plastic cups only end up amassed in land-fills. If only they implemented similar policies here we wouldn't have to direct so much precious plastic into the production of throw away plastic cups and bottles. Having to see the place with a guide is also a bit weird but I suspect they may let you off the leash if you dress like a hardcore marxist-leninist.

[Obs]

There's a picture where he mentions that they serve drinks in reusable mugs as if it's some weird totalitarian conspiracy. What's wrong with that? Plastic cups only end up amassed in land-fills. If only they implemented similar policies here we wouldn't have to direct so much precious plastic into the production of throw away plastic cups and bottles. Having to see the place with a guide is also a bit weird but I suspect they may let you off the leash if you dress like a hardcore marxist-leninist.

"...by the way even in China they draw a fork. :cool::cool::cool::cool::cool::cool::cool: :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes: :cool::cool::cool::cool::cool::cool::cool:"

What a prick.

[Sir Comradical]

"...by the way even in China they draw a fork. :cool::cool::cool::cool::cool::cool::cool: :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes: :cool::cool::cool::cool::cool::cool::cool:"

What a prick.

Ohh the eurocentric bigotry, people in different parts of the world pick up food in different ways, it's not a Juche conspiracy.

[Pretty Flaco]

Yeah I know, it's like there are, *gasp*, good parts and bad parts of North Korea. It's almost as if the average standard of living is slightly above the norm for East Asia! The horror!

Yes, the DPRK has towns and neighbourhoods where life is hard. No, it's not a fucking paradise. But please, before you call it some kind of horrifying hellhole, go to the slums of Mumbai, go to a Bangladeshi country village - go almost anywhere else in Asia, and you'll see much, much worse living conditions. Remember that you'll be seeing that in India, which has a booming industry and amiable relations with the US is telling - while the DPRK has been under economic and military siege for almost 60 years now.


You don't have to speak Korean to go to the DPRK. It helps if you want to talk with regular folks, obviously, but it's not a necessity.

I wasn't talking about the standard of living, I was referring to the weird level of control in the country.

[bailey_187]

Yeah I know, it's like there are, *gasp*, good parts and bad parts of North Korea. It's almost as if the average standard of living is slightly above the norm for East Asia! The horror!

Yes, the DPRK has towns and neighbourhoods where life is hard. No, it's not a fucking paradise. But please, before you call it some kind of horrifying hellhole, go to the slums of Mumbai, go to a Bangladeshi country village - go almost anywhere else in Asia, and you'll see much, much worse living conditions. Remember that you'll be seeing that in India, which has a booming industry and amiable relations with the US is telling - while the DPRK has been under economic and military siege for almost 60 years now.


You don't have to speak Korean to go to the DPRK. It helps if you want to talk with regular folks, obviously, but it's not a necessity.

Which East Asian countries having a lower average living standard?

[Rooster]

¿ Is he the same Spanish guy who coöperates with the north Korean web page forum in Spanish language http://www.korea-dpr.com/cgi-bin/simpleforum.cgi/simpleforum.cgi?fid=08

The friends of Korea or what ever? Unless he lost a lot of weight, got less sweaty and greasy looking and grew thicker hair, then it's not him.

[Wanted Man]

There's a picture where he mentions that they serve drinks in reusable mugs as if it's some weird totalitarian conspiracy. What's wrong with that? Plastic cups only end up amassed in land-fills. If only they implemented similar policies here we wouldn't have to direct so much precious plastic into the production of throw away plastic cups and bottles.

Wow, what a bunch of totalitarian scumbags. I used to support the DPRK, but now that I know this...

[Obs]

Which East Asian countries having a lower average living standard?
I'll readily admit I don't have any numbers to pull out of a hat to prove it, but if we include SE Asia as part of East Asia, I think you'll find large patches (generally the rural parts) of both China, Cambodia, Myanmar and similar countries have an incredibly poor peasantry.

I wasn't talking about the standard of living, I was referring to the weird level of control in the country.
Notice how he keeps writing "of course, they don't let you take pictures of this", but the picture has clearly not been taken in any sort of secrecy?

[Geiseric]

I don't think he used it in a derogatory sense, it was pretty neutral on that part... The porcelain cups is a good idea, I admit... The thing that bugged me was their sense of security, can't take pics of certain things, can't walk around on your own, and they kinda tried to hide the slums. Just seems eerie.

[gorillafuck]

I'll readily admit I don't have any numbers to pull out of a hat to prove it, but if we include SE Asia as part of East Asia, I think you'll find large patches (generally the rural parts) of both China, Cambodia, Myanmar and similar countries have an incredibly poor peasantry.
When people say that North Koreans don't eat much and don't live well, it's not a lie. They are not too hot compared to SE Asia.

http://apps.who.int/nutrition/landscape/report.aspx?iso=prk

and if you look at Cubas stats, it becomes clear that the WHO is not out to slander anti-American states.

[scarletghoul]

Which East Asian countries having a lower average living standard?
The nearest statistics I can find on this is the UN human development index. the data can be found here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_Human_Development_Index
North Korea is absent from recent listings. The most recent report that included them was in 1995, where they ranked 75. This is within the 'high human development' category, and ahead of many other Asian countries (including China and India. The only ones ahead of it are the highly developed US sattelites like Japan, South Korea, the gulf oil states, Israel, etc)

Keep in mind that in 1995 North Korea was experiencing severe problems due to the collapse of the eastern bloc. It would definitely rank higher now as they've recovered a bit.

[Os Cangaceiros]

http://www.mrlevek.com/North%20Korea/northk57.jpg

I would love to shoot a movie here, or at least a scene.

[psgchisolm]

I'll readily admit I don't have any numbers to pull out of a hat to prove it, but if we include SE Asia as part of East Asia, I think you'll find large patches (generally the rural parts) of both China, Cambodia, Myanmar and similar countries have an incredibly poor peasantry.

Notice how he keeps writing "of course, they don't let you take pictures of this", but the picture has clearly not been taken in any sort of secrecy?
I love how he said that the driver said that that village don't exist in NK and that he took a "wrong" turn:laugh: and yet there's a person walking on the road in plain sight. Not to mention the barbed wire beaches. Let's not forget that woman that was "picking up berries" for her "rabbits" of course:rolleyes:

[Rusty Shackleford]

Equating the conditions of DPRK society to the ideology and governance is incomplete. A far greater impact on the conditions of society is the extreme sanctions placed upon them. yeah, China trades with them, and yeah, some stuff goes through the DMZ, but you cant run a nation on that.

Iraq was doing alright until the Gulf War and the decade of sanctions. In 2003, it looked like hell, and now, its even worse.

the DPRK is basically running on the natural resources within its borders. ROK is running on anything it can afford because it is allowed to trade with other nations without a 3rd nation blocking it.

[Metacomet]

Interesting photographs, that's for sure. I'd like to visit just to see it (well i'd basically like to see just about everywhere)

But I'd agree, a little to authoritarian for me, a bit to much cult of personality worship for me too. Certainly better then some parts of Africa or other developing places though.

[L.A.P.]

Remember that you'll be seeing that in India, which has a booming industry and amiable relations with the US is telling - while the DPRK has been under economic and military siege for almost 60 years now.


A lot of Pyongyang looks like the village in India that a quarter of my family is from.

[Black Sheep]

Monuments, monuments everywhere!


Yeah I know, it's like there are, *gasp*, good parts and bad parts of North Korea. It's almost as if the average standard of living is slightly above the norm for East Asia! The horror!

Yes, the DPRK has towns and neighbourhoods where life is hard. No, it's not a fucking paradise. But please, before you call it some kind of horrifying hellhole, go to the slums of Mumbai, go to a Bangladeshi country village - go almost anywhere else in Asia, and you'll see much, much worse living conditions. Remember that you'll be seeing that in India, which has a booming industry and amiable relations with the US is telling - while the DPRK has been under economic and military siege for almost 60 years now.

Riveting tale, sibling!
Remind me again, why should i compare a self-proclaimed SOCIALIST country to a capitalist one, with regard to urban-rural gap bridging.

The hipocrisy!

[Kilenee]

Are leftists on here defending dynastic succession?:ohmy:

[pranabjyoti]

Which East Asian countries having a lower average living standard?
Most east Asian countries, other than the metropolis can suburb area, have much lower living standard. As for example, other than Bangkok and Pattaya and one like that, the rest of the Thailand isn't well developed. This was pretty much clear during the recent red shirt vs yellow shirt clash.

[The Militant]

My problem with DPRK is mainly an ideological one. The massive cult of personality, the lack of worker control of the state, the massive nationalism of Juche, and the dynastic succession system are issues that definitely need to be addressed. But as said before the living standard is much higher that say a small 3rd world African nation. They do have some socialistic aspects like universal health care and virtually 0% unemployment rate but the problems I have mentioned before really hinder the country.

[StalinFanboy]

There's a picture where he mentions that they serve drinks in reusable mugs as if it's some weird totalitarian conspiracy. What's wrong with that? Plastic cups only end up amassed in land-fills. If only they implemented similar policies here we wouldn't have to direct so much precious plastic into the production of throw away plastic cups and bottles. Having to see the place with a guide is also a bit weird but I suspect they may let you off the leash if you dress like a hardcore marxist-leninist.

I get the feeling that that particular picture and bit of commentary isn't meant to be a critique of the society, but rather an observation.

I also get the feeling that there are more important things to discuss from this besides the use of plastic ware. Such as:

"On your arrival you will be assigned to a guide and a driver. That will constantly follow you. You can't leave the hotel on your own."

or

"A NK beach, electrified barbed-wire so the NK citiziens wouln't swim away"

or

"In every place you will have a Pole with a citation of the great leader."

or

"Every citizen has a pin of Kim Il Song"

or

"you can't move freely in NK, you need authorisations, and you have check-points everywhere. When the car crossed teh check point, the driver flashed the lights, perhaps its a meaning that a forigner is on board."

"All the forigners got to visit the main park, locals were denied admission"

jus sayin

[CynicalIdealist]

My Marxist economics professor has been to North Korea. He has a more sophisticated view of NK/SK than most.

[Rusty Shackleford]

My Marxist economics professor has been to North Korea. He has a more sophisticated view of NK/SK than most.
firs off.

pm me details about the campus you are at. i need marxist economics. :lol:

secondly, what is his view?

[The Vegan Marxist]

http://www.mrlevek.com/North%20Korea/northk57.jpg

I would love to shoot a movie here, or at least a scene.

You'd know that people there mostly choose to walk than drive cars so damn obsessively, right? Also, as eerie as the picture may seem, there's been plenty of pictures where activity is shown. The problem about pictures is that it it's a single frame and really proves nothing. I could easily do this with any wide road where no cars are coming by. Either way, each picture taken comes with some kind of bias. Either pro or anti, it resembles itself upon the pictures taken.

[DragonQuestWes]

My problem with DPRK is mainly an ideological one. The massive cult of personality, the lack of worker control of the state, the massive nationalism of Juche, and the dynastic succession system are issues that definitely need to be addressed. But as said before the living standard is much higher that say a small 3rd world African nation. They do have some socialistic aspects like universal health care and virtually 0% unemployment rate but the problems I have mentioned before really hinder the country.

Not to mention that they aren't affected by the recession because of their isolation from the Capitalist world, that's another good thing about them.

Just like how the Soviet Union managed to avoid being hindered by the Great Depression because of its Socialistic economy, or if not that, by isolating itself from the Capitalist world.

[The Vegan Marxist]

Not to mention that they aren't affected by the recession because of their isolation from the Capitalist world, that's another good thing about them.

Just like how the Soviet Union managed to avoid being hindered by the Great Depression because of its Socialistic economy, or if not that, by isolating itself from the Capitalist world.

I agree. Though, they're trying to break away from isolation. So only two things will be embraced after isolation is broken and bilateral relations flourish. 1) They end their centralized economy and embrace capitalism (highly unlikely, but possible nonetheless), or 2) Socialism will flourish in North Korea, more democracy, more openness, etc.

[Apoi_Viitor]

This photo essay seems to have a large anti-DPRK bias. I am very suspicious of things like this. This guy may be a propaganda agent.

Maybe he's also a reptilian or an illimunati-bigfoot member? Obviously these photos are forgeries, coined by the alien-capitalist elite, who wants to discredit the glorious North Korean government.

[DragonQuestWes]

I agree. Though, they're trying to break away from isolation. So only two things will be embraced after isolation is broken and bilateral relations flourish. 1) They end their centralized economy and embrace capitalism (highly unlikely, but possible nonetheless), or 2) Socialism will flourish in North Korea, more democracy, more openness, etc.

I'm hoping for #2. I wouldn't want them becoming like what China is right now.

[Prairie Fire]

How it's like to live in North Korea (http://www.anonym.to/?http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:8Dcxa3JBWAMJ:www.mrlevek.com/northkorea.htm+%3Ca%20href=)
(http://www.anonym.to/?http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:8Dcxa3JBWAMJ:www.mrlevek.com/northkorea.htm+%3Ca%20href=)



And here are some stunning pics by a DPRK fanatic (http://www.anonym.to/?http://www.forocomunista.com/t5729-fotos-de-las-cronicas-de-un-viaje-a-corea).


It is very interesting to me that aside from similar landmarks, the two sets of pictures almost seem to be two completely different countries.

I will comment on the Russian photos though, because these are most critical. The Russian traveller seems to have went looking for flaws, and therefore he found them. That doesn't mean that there aren't flaws in the DPRK, but of course, he decontextualizes them.

Here are some of his photo captions, and my commentary:



On your arrival you will be assigned to a guide and a driver. That will constantly follow you. You can't leave the hotel on your own.


Wow, if I didn't know any better, one would think that the DPRK was a country under siege, or something.

:rolleyes:

Perhaps this is the reason that the DPRK has not had the same level of internal sabotage as Cuba ( ie. CIA agents putting cement in jugs of milk, leaving faucets running and burning out lightbulbs, the bombing of Cuban passenger aircraft, several assassination attempts on Fidel Castro, etc, etc).

In a documentary on the CIA that I was watching on VHS tape (can't remember the name of it now for the life of me,), an ex-CIA agent was talking about how he committed sabotage in Cuba, and he entered the country under the guise of a student radical, a 'supporter' of the Cuban revolution.

Does our Russian friend see some implicit reason that the DPRK should accord unconditional trust to all foriegn visitors?


In a park he saw elder women picking up herbs, the guide said that it was for the rabbits, although it was clear that it was the kind of herb that the "owners of the rabbits" could eat.


If I didn't know any better, I would think that they are under crippling economic embargo or something ( a much more universal and thorough embargo than Cuba, with more international participants).

This is nowhere near the horrors witnessed in Iraq during the embargo of the 90's.


North Korea is a perfect reproduction of the year 1950.

And other parts of Asia are still in relatively the same state that they were found under Tamerlane and Kublai Khan.

Compared to Cambodia, most of India and Sri Lanka, rural Thailand, large parts of China (especially rural areas), Mongolia, and even Eastern Russia and the former SSR's, the 1950's don't sound so bad.

Also, I didn't realize that they had public computer centres in the 1950's.



Oil is almost inexistant, so most of the labor is manual.


I wonder why oil is non-existant.:rolleyes:



Water seems not to be avaliable everywhere when you leave the capital. A woman is washing her clothes in the river.


Again, not an uncommon occurance in Asia (or Latin America, Africa, etc).
When this is happens in 'free market' countries that do billions of dollars in annual trade ,however, what is their excuse?



When building in a city they tend to block the old houses with tall bulidings , if that is not possible they put a concrete fence so you would only see the roof.
As soon as you try to take a picture different from the magazine "Korea" the guide will say: "why are you taking a picture" "it's forbidden here"


All in all, trying to prevent foriegn opportunists from snapping photos that can be spun into propaganda to rationalize military intervention is not such an irredemable offense. They know too well what those photos will be used for ( this particular photo exhibition being a case in point).



The big monument, (they cut off the electricity at 11)


...Because oil is scarce (see above, re: Crippling Economic Embargo)



The city at night is scary,


Really?

Seriously?

Now we're not even dealing with information out of context; now, this persyn is simply infering doom and gloom over a city skyline.



there is no light on the streets


Unlike almost the entire African continent, and the majority of the capitalist world (Even my rural hometown is surprisingly dark at night, compared to the City).


and people use white lights and no curtains.

Point?


during the day the elevator didn't work for 15 mins


Elavator failures never happen anywhere else in the world (especially not in countries that have the capacity and tools and materials needed to maintain elavators).



View from the monument, besides the pretty view you can also see the dead birds.


http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2009/03/22/article-1163991-03FCB911000005DC-73_634x529.jpg

Why was that comment necessary?

Birds never die in capitalist countries?



Reality of the NK, a forigner will not see this generally.



The whole Pyongyang is like this,

Holy shit! Some people live in single story homes, rather than apartment complexes?

Wow, that's much worse than the conditions that the majority of humynity live under. :rolleyes:

Give me the South African sheet metal shanty town that they filmed District 9 in any day of the week, but please don't make me live in one of those homes with windows and shingled roofs !


when he asked the guide about the old houses the guide said that old people didn't want to move out in the new ones and like it that way


While this explanation is most likely bullshit, at the same time I can't blame them for not being honest with foriegn visitors who seem to be actively seeking out and trying to document flaws.

They could probably save themselves a lot of grief by simply stating that dilapated homes are a reality of crippling economic sanctions (if they have trouble getting food and medicines, why would they have paint and shingles?) imposed by external powers.

That said, such honesty would never make it into print. Those that go looking for flaws have their mind made up, and won't be swayed.



As a form of entertainement both Koreas will take you to a visit to the border. One mystery remains, how come under capitalism the roads are good and under communism crappy


This is the reasoning of whoever made this photo display in a nutshell:
All flaws in the DPRK are directly attributable to socialism, and all successes in capitalist countries are indisputable signs of capitalist superiority.

The reasons behind excessive wealth in capitalist/imperialist countries will not be explored in any further detail by the author of this photo display, nor will the economic embargo upon the DPRK ever be mentioned at all (Oil is scarce for electricity and transportation; why would the cracks in the roads be paved?).



A NK beach, electrified barbed-wire so the NK citiziens wouln't swim away,


This is authors conjecture.
You think, maybe, it has something to do with preventing others from getting in?


Every citizen has a pin of Kim Il Song, except for little children, waiters (the pin is probably hidden by work clothes), and Kim Il Song himself
You cannot buy this pin.


I actually have a very similar pin (red flag, gold trimming,same Kim Il Sung picture,), a gift from a DPRK delegation, except that mine has writing.

The pin that I was given was, I think, the pin of the Kim Il Sung youth league. Given the WPK logo in the top corner, is it possible that this is a pin worn by WPK members ( a lot of parties, even in capitalist countries, do similar things identifying by lapel pins)?



That means that a food joint is near, by the way even in China they draw a fork.


Oh, they drew chopsticks instead of a western utensil that no-one in their population uses. They are totally out of line.:rolleyes:



You can see this on the doors, the X means entrance forbidden, and the thingy taht looks like a target means enter here


So, by "forbidden" and "enter here", you mean one is an "in" door, and the other is an "out" door (judging by the photo, with a 'forbidden' door right beside an 'enter here' door, both seemingly part of the same door jam)?

The authors infered dramatic commentary on the society is skewing the actuality of what is present.


Entrances to the subways look somewhat shabby.


Erm ,how so?

That is as nice, if not nicer, than the LRT stations in my city.



The particularity of the cities is the lack of cars. Everyone is walking, sometimes they take packed public transportatins made of tramways, trolleys and even 2 storie buses. The bicycles are rare and expensive.


Again, if I didn't know better, I'd think that the country was under economic embargo, or something.



The drivers never stop in front of pedestrians, they constantly honk.


Sounds like parts of Latin America ( My comrade almost got hit by a car there. True story.).

I think this is the case in much of Latin America, Africa and Asia.



You can't move freely in NK, you need authorisations, and you have check-points everywhere. When the car crossed teh check point, the driver flashed the lights, perhaps its a meaning that a forigner is on board.


Again, precautions like these would have saved Cuba (and other socialist countries) a lot of grief.

The realities of living in a state targeted for "regime change " are not always fun.



Traffic lights exist but they dont work.


Oh really? Why not?
:rolleyes:



How cars in NK look like.



The sign is not lying http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/images/smilies/icon_wink.gif


He he. It's funny because their cars are shaped a bit ... round?

(sigh). Moving on.



A common sight, broken down gas-fueled truck, they drive slow and make a lot of smoke.


If I didn't know better, I would think that they had trouble importing car parts (ie. mufflers).

( see above, re: Crippling economic sanctions)


You're not supposed to take that picture.


Because they know the political uses that even the most common and mundane problems (found in all other countries) will be put to when discovered within their borders?



And put a room full of old consoles in the model pioneer palace


Which country trades TV sets to the DPRK?



(in which the escalator was turned on when the forigners arrived)


If I didn't know any better, I'd think that they were trying to conserve electricity (and the oil that generates it).

Ideally, given the real availability of fossil fuels, this is how we all should be living ( or will be).



And thats another village, but those houses don't exist in NK, the driver took a wrong turn.


Is this supposed to be witty sarcasm?

As for the homes themselves, they look like the quality of homes found all over rural asia, especially China.

At least in the DPRK, you are guaranteed a house.



Sometimes you get to see a martian landscape


Judging from the disparity between these photos and the other set from the latino comrade, the Russian author was obviously in the DPRK in Fall/Winter, or maybe early spring.

The grass is all yellow, the trees have no leaves on them, in sharp contrast to the other 'Fotos de las Crónicas de Un Viaje a Corea' images, which are all lush and green.



The hotel, construction was abandoned in 1991


What else happened in the world in 1991?

:rolleyes:

[Black Sheep]

Holy shit! Some people live in single story homes, rather than apartment complexes?
Wow, that's much worse than the conditions that the majority of humynity live under. :rolleyes:

Give me the South African sheet metal shanty town that they filmed District 9 in any day of the week, but please don't make me live in one of those homes with windows and shingled roofs !
That is irrelevant,and a fallacy.
Generally, this is a common mistake SU / NK apologists make.
If a "flaw" exists in a socialist country, it isn't redeemed by the fact that other capitalist countries have the same & worse flaws.Socialism is supposed to correct these flaws, after all.
I.e.
Stalin killed X mill people? Well yeah, but i don't hear you complaining about Bush!


I don't care what is going on in cappie countries, i am judging the self-proclaimed socialist country in question by socialist standards, and according to material conditions affecting it.

[bailey_187]

You'd know that people there mostly choose to walk than drive cars so damn obsessively, right?

Really?

[Bright Banana Beard]

They don't have many cars due to ecomonic sanction, at least they provided public transportation.

[Obs]

Riveting tale, sibling!
Remind me again, why should i compare a self-proclaimed SOCIALIST country to a capitalist one, with regard to urban-rural gap bridging.

The hipocrisy!

Because a socialist revolution is not a wave of a wand, and the Korean Workers' Party is not Albus fucking Dumbledore. Socialism does not immediately make everything lightyears better than all capitalist countries, and given the current relation the DPRK has with the international community, it's something of a miracle that poverty isn't even more widespread.

That's why we're comparing a socialist country to capitalist ones: to prove that socialism, even in this very strained manifestation, is actually much more efficient at securing general welfare than capitalism.


i am judging the self-proclaimed socialist country (...) according to material conditions affecting it.

BZZZZZT. Wrong. Do not pass Go. Do not collect 200$. You are purposefully ignoring the material conditions of the DPRK.

[pranabjyoti]

A lot of Pyongyang looks like the village in India that a quarter of my family is from.
Another lot of Pyongyang looks much better like my suburb, which is a part of a metropolis. At least those one-storied buildings look in much better condition than slums of Mumbai, Delhi and other Indian metropolises.

[Garret]

I agree. Though, they're trying to break away from isolation. So only two things will be embraced after isolation is broken and bilateral relations flourish. 1) They end their centralized economy and embrace capitalism (highly unlikely, but possible nonetheless), or 2) Socialism will flourish in North Korea, more democracy, more openness, etc.
Where is this already existing Democracy?

[Obs]

Where is this already existing Democracy?

You mean apart from the fact that there are regular parliamentary elections with three legal parties?

[Garret]

You mean apart from the fact that there are regular parliamentary elections with three legal parties?
No doubt the WPK has hegemony over these other parties.

[Garret]

Wow, if I didn't know any better, one would think that the DPRK was a country under siege, or something.



Perhaps this is the reason that the DPRK has not had the same level of internal sabotage as Cuba ( ie. CIA agents putting cement in jugs of milk, leaving faucets running and burning out lightbulbs, the bombing of Cuban passenger aircraft, several assassination attempts on Fidel Castro, etc, etc).

In a documentary on the CIA that I was watching on VHS tape (can't remember the name of it now for the life of me,), an ex-CIA agent was talking about how he committed sabotage in Cuba, and he entered the country under the guise of a student radical, a 'supporter' of the Cuban revolution.

Does our Russian friend see some implicit reason that the DPRK should accord unconditional trust to all foriegn visitors?
No amount of external threat justifies the type of authoritarian crap the KWP commits throughout North Korea. The CIA trying to overthrow your regime doesn't justify putting entire families in concentration camps. It doesn't justify the type of censorship and tyranny in the country, especially when they have the Chinese watching their backs. It doesn't justify having your entire populace starving to death and wanting to go to the PRC, of all places, for asylum.

[Obs]

No doubt the WPK has hegemony over these other parties.

"Where's the democracy?"
"Here"
"Oh well it's probably not really democracy :rolleyes:"

[Admiral Swagmeister G-Funk]

"Where's the democracy?"
"Here"
"Oh well it's probably not really democracy :rolleyes:"
Where's the direct democracy? Do workers control their work places from the bottom up? Do workers have a say in the actions of the NK army? Do workers get the chance to oppose Kim Jong-Il in the streets, or hold politicians accountable and ask for their recall any time? Is the personality cult there justified any more than capitalism's own 'personality cult'?

We have elections in Britain, too. Three proper political parties, a parliament and we can vote. I wouldn't say our system is genuinely democratic though. You cannot say that NK is democratic just because it has three parties and parliamentary elections, that is a pedantic way to look at it.

I would take a semi-sympathetic position and understand that a lot of the reason NK is the way it is is because of the fact that it is isolated and suffocated by trade embargos and all the rest of it, but these unfortunate circumstances do not exempt NK from scrutiny for being a largely authoritarian hell-hole. I don't think that the international conditions that surround NK justify the government's authoritarian position.

It seems that many folk will just blindly defend any state that waves a red flag, without questioning its actual nature.

[scarletghoul]

They use chopsticks. They use china mugs to drink from. They have dead birds. Enter and Exit signs on doors. Darkness at night. The list of horrors goes on..

Really, if this is the worst they can find of the DPRK, then im more impressed with that country than ever. The slightly run down looking buildings in Pyongyang are nothing you wouldn't see in any first world city.

Its also very strange that some people seem to think all the nice things in North Korea are elaborate constructions carefully designed to fool foreign visitors... Apparently Pyongyang is a 'potemkin city'.. with all those buildings put up just to trick people and cover up the other buildings (as if theres any city on earth where the larger buildings are not more prominant than the smaller ones)

[scarletghoul]

Where's the direct democracy? Do workers control their work places from the bottom up? Do workers have a say in the actions of the NK army? Do workers get the chance to oppose Kim Jong-Il in the streets, or hold politicians accountable and ask for their recall any time? Is the personality cult there justified any more than capitalism's own 'personality cult'?
Workers have regular meetings and discussions about workplace management. It is not total control because any country which gave individual workplaces total autonomy would fall apart, so the economy works according to a central plan (decided by state officials of course, who are from the elected parliament, trade unions, and military. In other words most state officials are elected, it seems). As for the army it is one with the people, that is, everyone does military training and has access to weapons.
Yes it is not perfect democracy, and the personality cult is not good. There are some criticisms to make of course. But dont let these problems overshadow the achievements of the dprk, which are highly impressive and worth upholding.

[Hoplite]

There is a documentary series out right now called the Vice Guide to North Korea.

It's basically as inside a look as you get at North Korea, the makers actually got IN to North Korea (not actually as hard as it seems) and managed to film inside the country. It's...bizzare, to say the least but an extremely interesting documentary simply because you get to see almost nothing inside North Korea normally and what the guy shows you is fairly strange.

I highly recommend it for the variety if no other reason.

I have links but I cant post them yet, I'll update this when I can

[The Vegan Marxist]

Where's the direct democracy? Do workers control their work places from the bottom up?

According to a comrade who used to live there, I asked him this:


"What can you tell me of their industries and agriculture? Are they state-run, worker-run, worker cooperative, or are their bosses and CEO's, etc.?"

This was his response:


"Cooperative farms. I have worked for one day at the Cochang cooperative farm, so I know how it is. Divided into worker-run workgroups sharing every burden. The foreman who is responsible for reporting, accounting, etc must also work in the fields.

"Industry is run similarly, with army-style precision, one of the best quality in asia. Especially you can check the CNC videos on uriminzokkiri's channel on YouTube for an impression. The CNC machines are more advanced than US ones."

[PhoenixAsh]

Because a socialist revolution is not a wave of a wand, and the Korean Workers' Party is not Albus fucking Dumbledore. Socialism does not immediately make everything lightyears better than all capitalist countries, and given the current relation the DPRK has with the international community, it's something of a miracle that poverty isn't even more widespread.

That's why we're comparing a socialist country to capitalist ones: to prove that socialism, even in this very strained manifestation, is actually much more efficient at securing general welfare than capitalism.



BZZZZZT. Wrong. Do not pass Go. Do not collect 200$. You are purposefully ignoring the material conditions of the DPRK.



Material condition are: they seem to be able to support the 4th largest army in the world...second if you count active reserves.

[The Vegan Marxist]

Material condition are: they seem to be able to support the 4th largest army in the world...second if you count active reserves.

And let's not forget what all else they can support; healthcare, education, shelter, energy, employment, etc. all services done freely for their people. The achievements of the DPRK is vast and should be supported because of such.

[PhoenixAsh]

And let's not forget what all else they can support; healthcare, education, shelter, energy, employment, etc. all services done freely for their people. The achievements of the DPRK is vast and should be supported because of such.

I only support that if its worth anything. There are several conflicting sources of the free nature of health care in DPRK and there is genuine doubt about its quality....some sources calling it dilapitated and lacking such elemental things such as electrictiy and sterile equipment.

So basically...if you manage to upholad the fourth largest army in the world and do not mange to actually provide the so called free healthcare of any worthwhile quality then it isn't worth anything and the so called socialist achievements are bullshit.

As energy is a very, very rare commodity in DPRK given complete blackouts on satelite immages of most of the countries cities I have severe doubt if they can actually charge anything at all given the fucked up nature of the service.

Shelter in shanty towns is usually free of charge. And employment? employing escalators you mean. Hidden unemployent if you ask me.


The so called achievements of the DPRK are shit...nobody actually gets to see them, nobody can verify them and that is the other point of debate: why not? Because there is NO freedom.

[Garret]

And let's not forget what all else they can support; healthcare, education, shelter, energy, employment, etc. all services done freely for their people. The achievements of the DPRK is vast and should be supported because of such.
Achievement such as modern concentration camps (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Camp_22)?

[durhamleft]

This photo essay seems to have a large anti-DPRK bias. I am very suspicious of things like this. This guy may be a propaganda agent.

are you fucking kidding?

[Rooster]

Its also very strange that some people seem to think all the nice things in North Korea are elaborate constructions carefully designed to fool foreign visitors... Apparently Pyongyang is a 'potemkin city'.. with all those buildings put up just to trick people and cover up the other buildings (as if theres any city on earth where the larger buildings are not more prominant than the smaller ones)

It's also very strange that some people seem to think that all criticism of all the things in North Korea are elaborate constructions carefully designed by imperialists designed to fool westerners.

[Sugar Hill Kevis]

These cities aren't creepy. The only reason people find them creepy is because they're in North Korea.

http://www.mrlevek.com/North%20Korea/northk44.jpg
Kinda creepy dude.

[Os Cangaceiros]

Lies! Bourgeois lies!

[Wanted Man]

It's also very strange that some people seem to think that all criticism of all the things in North Korea are elaborate constructions carefully designed by imperialists designed to fool westerners.

http://oi54.tinypic.com/5f57a1.jpg

Shit thread.

[StalinFanboy]

It is very interesting to me that aside from similar landmarks, the two sets of pictures almost seem to be two completely different countries.

I will comment on the Russian photos though, because these are most critical. The Russian traveller seems to have went looking for flaws, and therefore he found them. That doesn't mean that there aren't flaws in the DPRK, but of course, he decontextualizes them.

Here are some of his photo captions, and my commentary:



Wow, if I didn't know any better, one would think that the DPRK was a country under siege, or something.

:rolleyes:

Perhaps this is the reason that the DPRK has not had the same level of internal sabotage as Cuba ( ie. CIA agents putting cement in jugs of milk, leaving faucets running and burning out lightbulbs, the bombing of Cuban passenger aircraft, several assassination attempts on Fidel Castro, etc, etc).

In a documentary on the CIA that I was watching on VHS tape (can't remember the name of it now for the life of me,), an ex-CIA agent was talking about how he committed sabotage in Cuba, and he entered the country under the guise of a student radical, a 'supporter' of the Cuban revolution.

Does our Russian friend see some implicit reason that the DPRK should accord unconditional trust to all foriegn visitors?



If I didn't know any better, I would think that they are under crippling economic embargo or something ( a much more universal and thorough embargo than Cuba, with more international participants).

This is nowhere near the horrors witnessed in Iraq during the embargo of the 90's.



And other parts of Asia are still in relatively the same state that they were found under Tamerlane and Kublai Khan.

Compared to Cambodia, most of India and Sri Lanka, rural Thailand, large parts of China (especially rural areas), Mongolia, and even Eastern Russia and the former SSR's, the 1950's don't sound so bad.

Also, I didn't realize that they had public computer centres in the 1950's.



I wonder why oil is non-existant.:rolleyes:



Again, not an uncommon occurance in Asia (or Latin America, Africa, etc).
When this is happens in 'free market' countries that do billions of dollars in annual trade ,however, what is their excuse?



All in all, trying to prevent foriegn opportunists from snapping photos that can be spun into propaganda to rationalize military intervention is not such an irredemable offense. They know too well what those photos will be used for ( this particular photo exhibition being a case in point).



...Because oil is scarce (see above, re: Crippling Economic Embargo)



Really?

Seriously?

Now we're not even dealing with information out of context; now, this persyn is simply infering doom and gloom over a city skyline.



Unlike almost the entire African continent, and the majority of the capitalist world (Even my rural hometown is surprisingly dark at night, compared to the City).



Point?



Elavator failures never happen anywhere else in the world (especially not in countries that have the capacity and tools and materials needed to maintain elavators).



http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2009/03/22/article-1163991-03FCB911000005DC-73_634x529.jpg

Why was that comment necessary?

Birds never die in capitalist countries?




Holy shit! Some people live in single story homes, rather than apartment complexes?

Wow, that's much worse than the conditions that the majority of humynity live under. :rolleyes:

Give me the South African sheet metal shanty town that they filmed District 9 in any day of the week, but please don't make me live in one of those homes with windows and shingled roofs !



While this explanation is most likely bullshit, at the same time I can't blame them for not being honest with foriegn visitors who seem to be actively seeking out and trying to document flaws.

They could probably save themselves a lot of grief by simply stating that dilapated homes are a reality of crippling economic sanctions (if they have trouble getting food and medicines, why would they have paint and shingles?) imposed by external powers.

That said, such honesty would never make it into print. Those that go looking for flaws have their mind made up, and won't be swayed.



This is the reasoning of whoever made this photo display in a nutshell:
All flaws in the DPRK are directly attributable to socialism, and all successes in capitalist countries are indisputable signs of capitalist superiority.

The reasons behind excessive wealth in capitalist/imperialist countries will not be explored in any further detail by the author of this photo display, nor will the economic embargo upon the DPRK ever be mentioned at all (Oil is scarce for electricity and transportation; why would the cracks in the roads be paved?).



This is authors conjecture.
You think, maybe, it has something to do with preventing others from getting in?



I actually have a very similar pin (red flag, gold trimming,same Kim Il Sung picture,), a gift from a DPRK delegation, except that mine has writing.

The pin that I was given was, I think, the pin of the Kim Il Sung youth league. Given the WPK logo in the top corner, is it possible that this is a pin worn by WPK members ( a lot of parties, even in capitalist countries, do similar things identifying by lapel pins)?



Oh, they drew chopsticks instead of a western utensil that no-one in their population uses. They are totally out of line.:rolleyes:



So, by "forbidden" and "enter here", you mean one is an "in" door, and the other is an "out" door (judging by the photo, with a 'forbidden' door right beside an 'enter here' door, both seemingly part of the same door jam)?

The authors infered dramatic commentary on the society is skewing the actuality of what is present.



Erm ,how so?

That is as nice, if not nicer, than the LRT stations in my city.



Again, if I didn't know better, I'd think that the country was under economic embargo, or something.



Sounds like parts of Latin America ( My comrade almost got hit by a car there. True story.).

I think this is the case in much of Latin America, Africa and Asia.



Again, precautions like these would have saved Cuba (and other socialist countries) a lot of grief.

The realities of living in a state targeted for "regime change " are not always fun.



Oh really? Why not?
:rolleyes:




He he. It's funny because their cars are shaped a bit ... round?

(sigh). Moving on.



If I didn't know better, I would think that they had trouble importing car parts (ie. mufflers).

( see above, re: Crippling economic sanctions)



Because they know the political uses that even the most common and mundane problems (found in all other countries) will be put to when discovered within their borders?



Which country trades TV sets to the DPRK?



If I didn't know any better, I'd think that they were trying to conserve electricity (and the oil that generates it).

Ideally, given the real availability of fossil fuels, this is how we all should be living ( or will be).



Is this supposed to be witty sarcasm?

As for the homes themselves, they look like the quality of homes found all over rural asia, especially China.

At least in the DPRK, you are guaranteed a house.



Judging from the disparity between these photos and the other set from the latino comrade, the Russian author was obviously in the DPRK in Fall/Winter, or maybe early spring.

The grass is all yellow, the trees have no leaves on them, in sharp contrast to the other 'Fotos de las Crónicas de Un Viaje a Corea' images, which are all lush and green.



What else happened in the world in 1991?

:rolleyes:
You sound absolutely hysterical. In your attempt to refute every little thing this man said, did it not cross your mind that not all of the comments made were supposed to be political critiques? Maybe some of them were just his observations.

I also notice you didn't respond to all of them. You know, like the one about monuments to the "great leader" being everywhere, or the fences in front of beaches, or the need for approval to travel to move around the country, or the fact that every single person wears a pin of the "great leader."

[Rafiq]

What's the point of this thread? Who cares about the living standards in the DPRK ? We know its not the worst or that great, but its not like we advocate an international north Korea style system... Right guys?

[The Vegan Marxist]

What's the point of this thread? Who cares about the living standards in the DPRK ? We know its not the worst or that great, but its not like we advocate an international north Korea style system... Right guys?

Each socialist country goes by its own standard. We should recognize each country's national liberation stance and oppose any foreign threat to that of those national countries. Everywhere else, well, they'll eventually turn to what we're now witnessing within all Arab countries.

[Tavarisch_Mike]

You sound absolutely hysterical. In your attempt to refute every little thing this man said, did it not cross your mind that not all of the comments made were supposed to be political critiques? Maybe some of them were just his observations.

I also notice you didn't respond to all of them. You know, like the one about monuments to the "great leader" being everywhere, or the fences in front of beaches, or the need for approval to travel to move around the country, or the fact that every single person wears a pin of the "great leader."

And you didnt respond to her post, so what makes you think that you got the "right" to tell her what she should respond to? A very old rethorical trick...

In a other world i pretty much agree with what rafiq wroted above me.

[Kalifornia]

Now despite the North Korean regime being undemocratic and passing on hereditary rule, I support the DPRK, I just do not support the leaders or beauracracy.

The north was blitzed in the Korean war, and its a mirrcale that despite sanctions and enemies from without, the North Korean people can stand strong and survive and even make gains that most third world capitalist countries masses would die for.

I think the reason people on here uphold Cuba and denounce Korea is a kind of "Orientalism" stereotype of evil one mided asians, which paints any capitalist source as gospel.

Both DPRK and Cuba are revisionist, yet one is lauded, the other is denounced.

If the DPRK collapsed and capitalism was reintroduced, the workers would lose any gains and go through the recapitalisation process, look what that did to the chinese masses.

[Black Sheep]

Because a socialist revolution is not a wave of a wand, and the Korean Workers' Party is not Albus fucking Dumbledore. Socialism does not immediately make everything lightyears better than all capitalist countries, and given the current relation the DPRK has with the international community, it's something of a miracle that poverty isn't even more widespread.Noone spoke of ly-better,only basic things about priorities and human needs-oriented resource allocation.
The fact that South Africa allocates its resources not in favor of decent housing, this doesn't justify NK not doing so.Or are you going to invoke a shortage of building materials? (monuments)
Mind you,this is just an example.


That's why we're comparing a socialist country to capitalist ones: to prove that socialism, even in this very strained manifestation, is actually much more efficient at securing general welfare than capitalism.You are comparing them as an excuse to economic management's mindfucks over there, which is absurd.
Like in another thread about the bolshevik regime torturing POWs, where stalinists claimed "well, every other country was doing it, hurrr".

You seem that you try and try to defend these countries so much, that you fall down on the level of cappie arguments.Which is sad.

[pranabjyoti]

To the critics of NK. I just want to know from which standpoint, you are criticizing NK. The capitalist-imperialist viewpoint or the proletariat? If from the proletarian viewpoint, I want to know what you have done or doing in your own country to establish a system better than NK.
N.B, I HATE ARMCHAIR CRITICS.

[Rooster]

What's the point of this thread? Who cares about the living standards in the DPRK ? We know its not the worst or that great, but its not like we advocate an international north Korea style system... Right guys?

I think the point is, that most of the NK fans are saying, is that a North Korea is like the way it is because it is isolated. If there was an international system like that, then there wouldn't be any repressive organs of state or a military first policy (going by the arguments that have been brought up). I think this just goes to show that socialism in one country doesn't work :glare:

Another thing that often gets brought up when North Korea is mentioned is the strange sort of paranoia and international conspiracy vibe you get that all people of the west are agents of an imperialist plot against NK. It is a black and white picture that is painted and that's disturbing. When the truth of the matter is, North Korea is a country that few in the capitalist world care about, that only crops up on the news sometimes because of the tensions in that general area. The only people who do care about it are weird guys who like to ponder over world wars and Stalinist communists who try to use it as an example.


To the critics of NK. I just want to know from which standpoint, you are criticizing NK. The capitalist-imperialist viewpoint or the proletariat? If from the proletarian viewpoint, I want to know what you have done or doing in your own country to establish a system better than NK.
N.B, I HATE ARMCHAIR CRITICS.

Does that make you an armchair supporter?

[A Revolutionary Tool]

To the critics of NK. I just want to know from which standpoint, you are criticizing NK. The capitalist-imperialist viewpoint or the proletariat? If from the proletarian viewpoint, I want to know what you have done or doing in your own country to establish a system better than NK.
N.B, I HATE ARMCHAIR CRITICS.
Tell me how this isn't blatantly an ad hominem attack but I see it consistently used to counter criticism?

But I view it from an atheist standpoint where I think it's wrong for people to worship other people. I mean it's really crazy, watch the documentary "National Geographic: Inside North Korea".
It's obviously U.S. propaganda no doubt, but the reactions with the North Koreans were not. I mean you had people getting in front of a picture of the "Dear Leader" thanking him for doctors coming in and curing their blindness. The North Koreans would start to cry just talking about how great the Dear Leader was, it was some serious 1984 shit.

[PhoenixAsh]

To the critics of NK. I just want to know from which standpoint, you are criticizing NK. The capitalist-imperialist viewpoint or the proletariat? If from the proletarian viewpoint, I want to know what you have done or doing in your own country to establish a system better than NK.
N.B, I HATE ARMCHAIR CRITICS.


Well..for one...I am refraining from starting a personality cult, refrain from building monoments all over the place with my favorite quote of the day, I refrain from making our army the number four largest in the world at the cost of healthcare, education and everything else, I refrain from making everybody wear a pin with my face on it, refrain from travelling by armoured train and flying in lobsters everyday and I do not kidnapp cineasts to make movies.

All in all I am doing very well in NOT establishing a state dictatorship. :thumbup1:

Now...tell me exactly...defending the so called scialist super state system as you are...why you haven't packed your bags yet to go live there and actually helping them out???

[Geiseric]

I'm actively going to protests, I give money to the group I am apart of despite being young, I go to relief fundraisers, and I do community service. North Korea sucks, there is no freedom.

[The Militant]

And let's not forget what all else they can support; healthcare, education, shelter, energy, employment, etc. all services done freely for their people. The achievements of the DPRK is vast and should be supported because of such.
Yes they have made great achievements due to their situation in the world currently. I support any country that escapes the capitalist system but I'm still very critical due to reasons I have stated earlier.

[Burn A Flag]

Personally my critique of DPRK is strictly political. Let's not forget that leadership is being passed off from father to son. Let's all be honest that is not socialistic. Sure the DPRK is economically opressed and all that jazz, I agree. However, judging by how magnificent some of the things are and how many statues and monuments there are, and such a cult of personality, I am guessing that the DPRK is not too centered around the proletariat. Judging by their economic stats, as well as pictures of the Hispanic DPRK supporter, I am guessing there is a very huge difference in wealth in different areas. I do not think that the DPRK is a workers' state.

[PhoenixAsh]

national geographic:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QQXfMMHV8FM

1 of 5...enjoy...

[A Revolutionary Tool]

national geographic:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QQXfMMHV8FM

1 of 5...enjoy...
Yeah some pretty weird stuff. I mean really, preserve a bench that Kim Sung sat on? When asked if it's hard to live with blindness her son answers something along the lines of "The most difficult part is not being able to see the Great Leader Kim Jong Il."

The other scene with the healed patients in a room is just creepy. A bunch of healed blind people and their families raising their hands like those kids in Jesus Camp yelling "We Praise You!"

As communists we have to look at that and see that something has gone horribly wrong in North Korea. The amount of brainwashing is crazy, and literally something straight out of 1984 where it's all for the sake of pure power itself. Who can watch that and tell us that the North Korean proletariat has power?

[Rusty Shackleford]

As communists we must analyze western portrayal of communists judiciously.

As communists we must criticize and self-criticize.

As communists we must not be fucking liberals and believe every goddamn myth about the DPRK

[A Revolutionary Tool]

As communists we must analyze western portrayal of communists judiciously.

As communists we must criticize and self-criticize.

As communists we must not be fucking liberals and believe every goddamn myth about the DPRK

Is this towards me?

[Rusty Shackleford]

sorry i didnt mean to come off as a dick. nicotine withdrawals :lol:

ugh, now i feel like a jackass.


but yes, i guess i just saw that and thought "ugh"

im not denying the obvious issue with leadership. there are criticisms to be made for sure. plenty actually.

[progressive_lefty]

Amazing photos.

[Obs]

1984

Everything you have ever said has now become null.

[pranabjyoti]

Does that make you an armchair supporter?
I am doing at present much more just posting threads to revleft, but at present I don't want to discuss it.
But at least, I can realize (as armchair supporter) that I can do very little to improve the conditions of workers of DPRK at present. Do you and liberals like keep that in your mind while criticizing?

[Kiev Communard]

North Korean ideology really has nothing to do even with Soviet version of Marxism, so I don't see the reason why so many M-Ls support the regime without any reservations. Besides, DPRK has never tried to play any sort of pro-active role among the left-wing movement in its respective region, so the oft-repeated comparisons of them with Cuba really miss the mark.

[pranabjyoti]

Tell me how this isn't blatantly an ad hominem attack but I see it consistently used to counter criticism?

But I view it from an atheist standpoint where I think it's wrong for people to worship other people. I mean it's really crazy, watch the documentary "National Geographic: Inside North Korea".
It's obviously U.S. propaganda no doubt, but the reactions with the North Koreans were not. I mean you had people getting in front of a picture of the "Dear Leader" thanking him for doctors coming in and curing their blindness. The North Koreans would start to cry just talking about how great the Dear Leader was, it was some serious 1984 shit.
Basically, I want to say that you only have right to criticize anybody or organization when you yourself can do something better than that, OTHERWISE NOT. I hope you too will agree that the crippling embargo is the main barrier before the development of DPRK. I just want to know what you have done or want to do regarding that matter? If nothing, then you (and others like you) don't have the right to criticize the DPRK.
Actually, it seems that the script behind the documentary of National Geographic "documentary" is very good. But, if you really want to see personality cult, just come to India. In India, the southern states, which are comparatively developed in HDI, are just maddeningly worship some people even filmstars. You will see how a lot of temples had been made by the fans of filmstars in the state of Tamilnadu and Andhrapradesh. I myself have seen an ornamented (with original gold, worth Rs. 200,000/$ 4000) statue of N T RamaRao, a film star and former Chief Minister of the state of AndhraPradesh in open in the city of Vizag, a port city.
Most of westerners forgot that Asia has a long history and tradition of feudalism and this is nothing but an extended result of that tradition.
Most probably, the US and imperialist embargo is supplying oxygen to this personality cult. Lift the embargo and let DPRK flourish in natural course, such tendency will soon vanish in thin air.

[pranabjyoti]

Well..for one...I am refraining from starting a personality cult, refrain from building monoments all over the place with my favorite quote of the day, I refrain from making our army the number four largest in the world at the cost of healthcare, education and everything else, I refrain from making everybody wear a pin with my face on it, refrain from travelling by armoured train and flying in lobsters everyday and I do not kidnapp cineasts to make movies.

All in all I am doing very well in NOT establishing a state dictatorship. :thumbup1:

Now...tell me exactly...defending the so called scialist super state system as you are...why you haven't packed your bags yet to go live there and actually helping them out???
Are you ABLE to do something to lead a country on the face of strong embargo. If yes, then do that first, otherwise just f off.

[pranabjyoti]

Personally my critique of DPRK is strictly political. Let's not forget that leadership is being passed off from father to son. Let's all be honest that is not socialistic. Sure the DPRK is economically opressed and all that jazz, I agree. However, judging by how magnificent some of the things are and how many statues and monuments there are, and such a cult of personality, I am guessing that the DPRK is not too centered around the proletariat. Judging by their economic stats, as well as pictures of the Hispanic DPRK supporter, I am guessing there is a very huge difference in wealth in different areas. I do not think that the DPRK is a workers' state.
Why not? It's not like that the father just put the throne on the head of son. but rather the people choosed the son after the father. By this process, G W Bush Senior had just inherited the US presidency to G W Bush Jr., just leaving Clinton two terms in between. By the same criticism, Clinton had just passed the senatorship of NewYork to Hillary. In USA, this is a result of natural DEMOCRATIC process, while in DPRK it's personality cult.
If you are against personality cult, why do you exercise it just against DPRK and why don't you mention other countries. "Leftists" like you push your words in such a manner that such phenomenon can only be observed in DPRK only and just put an blind eye about the rest of the world AND PEOPLE LIKE YOU CALL CITIZENS OF DPRK "BRAINWASHED".
After all, it's certainly better to have an anti-imperialist dynastic rule with popular support behind it than electing imperialist-capitalist morons for nearly two centuries and causing unlimited damage to the whole world.

[PhoenixAsh]

I am doing at present much more just posting threads to revleft, but at present I don't want to discuss it.

So are we all...next time you try to slander members for "armchair" anything you might keep that in mind. Lest you appear like you did as a sanctimonious hypocrite!



But at least, I can realize (as armchair supporter) that I can do very little to improve the conditions of workers of DPRK at present. Do you and liberals like keep that in your mind while criticizing?So instead of criticizing it you support it? And because we can do nothing about it we should keep silent about the misuse of socialism to establish a personal cult dictatorship?



Originally Posted by pranabjyoti http://www.revleft.com/vb/revleft/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.revleft.com/vb/showthread.php?p=2007875#post2007875)
Are you ABLE to do something to lead a country on the face of strong embargo. If yes, then do that first, otherwise just f off. hahaha:laugh:

You ARE a joke. Still digging in to defend the undefendable and you call yourself a revolurionary?

Bwahahaha.....:laugh:
__________________

[pranabjyoti]

North Korean ideology really has nothing to do even with Soviet version of Marxism, so I don't see the reason why so many M-Ls support the regime without any reservations. Besides, DPRK has never tried to play any sort of pro-active role among the left-wing movement in its respective region, so the oft-repeated comparisons of them with Cuba really miss the mark.
At least they fiercely resisted against US imperialism and HOW CAN YOU FORGOT THE DAMAGE IN KOREAN WAR and the crippling effect of a long embargo for a long time. You also have forgot that conditions of Latin America and Asia and materially different and haven't explained how much scope DPRK and its leaders has to play an active part in the region of Asia. Its neighbors are fUSSR, China on the left and Japan, S Korea on the right. S E Asia is far away and the Chinese revolution had already influenced that place much. The rest of Asia, South Asia and Middle East far to distant to play some active role. What else can you demand from them in such scenario than just defending themselves.

[Crimson Commissar]

The DPRK seems alright considering the extreme conditions they've been in since the fall of the USSR. The only thing that bothers me is the fucking worship of Kim il Sung and even in some cases Kim Jong Il. Not even the most hardcore of marxist-leninists would act that way about Lenin or Stalin. So would any DPRK supporter care to explain WHY this cultism exists in North Korea?

[Obs]

North Korean ideology really has nothing to do even with Soviet version of Marxism, so I don't see the reason why so many M-Ls support the regime without any reservations. Besides, DPRK has never tried to play any sort of pro-active role among the left-wing movement in its respective region, so the oft-repeated comparisons of them with Cuba really miss the mark.

Marxists-Leninists don't believe there's any exact blueprint as to what socialism looks like. That's part of being a Marxist. It means that even if a state seems very different from our preconception of what socialism should be, that does not mean it is not necessarily capitalist, as long as it lives up to the prerequisites for socialism - workers' management, the absence of a class whose only role is ownership of the means of production, and democracy.

The DPRK isn't Cuba. Cuba has the blessing of being an island (two, actually, but y'know), whereas the DPRK has troops on two borders (we're including Russia here) ready to be slaughtering people in Pyongyang in minutes, assuming they don't stop to scorch the earth on their way. This means that it's in Korea's best interests to lay low for now - supporting revolutionary movements all over Asia would be a perfect casus belli for the US and its allies. Remember how little provocation they needed to invade Afghanistan?

[PhoenixAsh]

Why not? It's not like that the father just put the throne on the head of son. but rather the people choosed the son after the father. By this process, G W Bush Senior had just inherited the US presidency to G W Bush Jr., just leaving Clinton two terms in between.

There were elections in DPRK choosing the head of state?? Wow...

Difference is, how flawed the system of the US may be...the people actually get to choose who leads them.



he same criticism, Clinton had just passed the senatorship of NewYork to Hillary. In USA, this is a result of natural DEMOCRATIC process, while in DPRK it's personality cult.Clinton was senator for New York?? Thats new.

Again...people got to choose from a variety of candidates.



If you are against personality cult, why do you exercise it just against DPRK and why don't you mention other countries. "Leftists" like you push your words in such a manner that such phenomenon can only be observed in DPRK only and just put an blind eye about the rest of the world AND PEOPLE LIKE YOU CALL CITIZENS OF DPRK "BRAINWASHED".
After all, it's certainly better to have an anti-imperialist dynastic rule with popular support behind it than electing imperialist-capitalist morons for nearly two centuries and causing unlimited damage to the whole world.
Yeah...your grasping at straws here. Stretching your arguments way into the ridiculous. You need to take your pills...quick! :laugh:

[PhoenixAsh]

At least they fiercely resisted against US imperialism and HOW CAN YOU FORGOT THE DAMAGE IN KOREAN WAR and the crippling effect of a long embargo for a long time. You also have forgot that conditions of Latin America and Asia and materially different and haven't explained how much scope DPRK and its leaders has to play an active part in the region of Asia. Its neighbors are fUSSR, China on the left and Japan, S Korea on the right. S E Asia is far away and the Chinese revolution had already influenced that place much. The rest of Asia, South Asia and Middle East far to distant to play some active role. What else can you demand from them in such scenario than just defending themselves.

Remember taht picture: "Slavery get shit done" .... thats what your arguments remind me off...

[bmw tuning]

good job :D

[Obs]

So would any DPRK supporter care to explain WHY this cultism exists in North Korea?

I'll readily admit that this is one of the things I find less agreeable about the DPRK, but it probably has to do with the cultural background of Korea, which has centuries of Confucianism deeply ingrained into it. This also explains, I think, the Chinese cult of personality centered around Mao, which many MLs and even some MLMs find excessive.

I am not an authority on this and am fully aware that what I'm saying is probably nonsense.

[pranabjyoti]

So are we all...next time you try to slander members for "armchair" anything you might keep that in mind. Lest you appear like you did as a sanctimonious hypocrite!
Better than a joker. At least, I know that imperialism is much much ....... more dangerous than personality cult.

So instead of criticizing it you support it? And because we can do nothing about it we should keep silent about the misuse of socialism to establish a personal cult dictatorship?
I will criticize DPRK when I will be do something better than that. Otherwise, I just don't want to add to some more to imperialist propaganda from "left(!)".

hahaha:laugh:

You ARE a joke. Still digging in to defend the undefendable and you call yourself a revolurionary?

Bwahahaha.....:laugh:
__________________
Why don't you join some reality TV show in any Fox sponsored channel? You have a good prospect there.

[PhoenixAsh]

Better than a joker. At least, I know that imperialism is much much ....... more dangerous than personality cult.

That is a matter of opinion...I see no diffeence between imperialism and personality cults. Both are exploitive and both have nothing to do with socialism.




I will criticize DPRK when I will be do something better than that. Otherwise, I just don't want to add to some more to imperialist propaganda from "left(!)".

By that rationale you are in no position to criticise the capitalist system since you are in no position to provide anything better.

I ciritice every system, especially systems that try to pose as socialist but are no more than personality cult dictatorships, that is not socialism....especially since condoning such systems will detract from what we are about.



Why don't you join some reality TV show in any Fox sponsored channel? You have a good prospect there.

I don't want to work for you.

[pranabjyoti]

There were elections in DPRK choosing the head of state?? Wow...
With my little knowledge of DPRK, I can say that the workers and peasants elect their representative from their local soviet style organizations and those elected members

Difference is, how flawed the system of the US may be...the people actually get to choose who leads them.
Wonderful, that's why they are choosing worst kind of morons for more than centuries.

Clinton was senator for New York?? Thats new.
What a level of understanding! I want to mean Clinton as former President of US presented the senatorship to Hillary.

Again...people got to choose from a variety of candidates.
But for some unknown(!) reason, they only have chosen among two basically same groups. Sigghhhhhhhhhh and here leftists who are ready to support this farce.

Yeah...your grasping at straws here. Stretching your arguments way into the ridiculous. You need to take your pills...quick! :laugh:
At least they are stronger than imperialist made boats with large holes in it.

[pranabjyoti]

That is a matter of opinion...I see no diffeence between imperialism and personality cults. Both are exploitive and both have nothing to do with socialism.
Certainly, Iraq, Afghanistan, global warming are the results of personality cults. For personality cult, students and workers are protesting in the streets of countries around the world.

By that rationale you are in no position to criticise the capitalist system since you are in no position to provide anything better.
Certainly DPRK can prove a better system than just pure capitalism, This argument shows what kind of brainwashed moron you are. You are in revleft but just forgot how capitalism kills 10 people to prosper 1 people. Can you provide just one capitalist example that had done so much for its people on the face of such a crippling embargo?

I ciritice every system, especially systems that try to pose as socialist but are no more than personality cult dictatorships, that is not socialism....especially since condoning such systems will detract from what we are about.
Then instead of establishing what socialism is, why are you just engaged in "criticism"?

I don't want to work for you.
You are already working for the imperialists. I don't have the bucks to pay you.:(

[PhoenixAsh]

With my little knowledge of DPRK, I can say that the workers and peasants elect their representative from their local soviet style organizations and those elected members

They do NOT elect their head of state. Which is the point of dynasties...you do not get to choose and neither do the three parties in DPRK.



Wonderful, that's why they are choosing worst kind of morons for more than centuries.

But they do get to choose. And that is the point.



What a level of understanding! I want to mean Clinton as former President of US presented the senatorship to Hillary.

He did? Seems to me the people elected her in a narrow victory.




But for some unknown(!) reason, they only have chosen among two basically same groups. Sigghhhhhhhhhh and here leftists who are ready to support this farce.

But they have chosen. You are contradicting yourself. Either its a dynasty or its an elected grovernment representative.

Comparing a flawed system based on elections with a dynastic presidency is a farce in itself.

You are defending something that has nothing to do with socialism and try to pass it of as socialism. You are so blinded by your trench mentality that you are prepared to defend everything socialism is againt because it pretends to be socialism...





At least they are stronger than imperialist made boats with large holes in it.

no they are not...only in your mind...they sink as rapidly as your dignity.

[PhoenixAsh]

Certainly, Iraq, Afghanistan, global warming are the results of personality cults. For personality cult, students and workers are protesting in the streets of countries around the world.

Global warming is not caused by imperialism.

Are they protesting in the streets for imperialism? Seems to me the protests in Egypt are in fact about personality cults and dynastic rulership. ;)



Certainly DPRK can prove a better system than just pure capitalism, This argument shows what kind of brainwashed moron you are..

A better system? Brainwashing the proletariat in worshipping teh great leader? A leadership that deosn't give a shit about its people's health but instead manages to maintain the fourth largest military inj the world? Wow....and you call me b rainwashed?

At the least I do NOT defend anti-socialist behaviour on the misguided idea that it brings something better than capitalism. Its worse you fool!! Open your eyes and smell the coffee...

YOU ARE DEFENDING SOMETHING THAT IS INHERRENTLY ANTI-SOCIALIST.

YOU ARE DEFENDING DICTATORSHIPS BORDERING ON FASCISM...

just because they use a hammer and sickle doesnt mean they are in fact socialist you know. :laugh:



You are in revleft but just forgot how capitalism kills 10 people to prosper 1 people. I have not forgotten anything you sanctimonious crypto-fascist...
I refuse to defend dictatorships even if they disguise themselves as socialist.



Can you provide just one capitalist example that had done so much for its people on the face of such a crippling embargo?I contest your argument that DPRK has done something worthwhile for its people. Everything is mood when you habve no freedom. No matter how many hammers and cicles you put on your monuments.



Then instead of establishing what socialism is, why are you just engaged in "criticism"? You are already working for the imperialists. I don't have the bucks to pay you.:(That is your asinine argumentation. You know nothing about what I have done and know nothing about what I am involved in...but hey keep living in your fantasy world...yo have NO arguments and your only resort is ad hominem attacks. I pitty you...I truely do.

[Rooster]

Better than a joker. At least, I know that imperialism is much much ....... more dangerous than personality cult.

I think you're failing to understand what personality cult is and what it involves in regards of a leader of a country.


I will criticize DPRK when I will be do something better than that. Otherwise, I just don't want to add to some more to imperialist propaganda from "left(!)".

Such a narrow and watered down view of the world; such an abstraction of reality plays into the hands of dictators, religious leaders and Imperialists. The idea that there's such a thing as pure left and pure right.


Why don't you join some reality TV show in any Fox sponsored channel? You have a good prospect there.

Is this that manifestation of Stalinist paranoia again?

[scarletghoul]

It's also very strange that some people seem to think that all criticism of all the things in North Korea are elaborate constructions carefully designed by imperialists designed to fool westerners.
This thread has had its fair share of facepalm images already, please stop encouraging them.

Like in another thread about the bolshevik regime torturing POWs, where stalinists claimed "well, every other country was doing it, hurrr".
I've not read the bolshevik torture thread, but this seems to be a gross and naive misunderstanding of the 'stalinists'+DPRK supporters' argument. We are not supporting the bad things done by socialists; we are criticising the ultra-leftist borderline-liberal criticism which joins the reactionaries in singling out socialists for criticism of crimes committed also by the reactionaries (and usually on a far bigger scale).
(yes I realise that last sentence looks like a montage of leninist buzzwords lol but try to grasp the point its making)

I think the point is, that most of the NK fans are saying, is that a North Korea is like the way it is because it is isolated.
This is untrue. Most North Korea supporters here are anti-revisionists aren't they. While imperial siege is of course a huge factor in North Korea's problems, we recognise that revisionism inside the country is also a problem. Some anti-revisionists do not consider North Korea socialist (though they don't usually jump on the anti-dprk revleft bandwagon in these threads). Most of us who do consider Korea socialist do so with significant criticisms, comradely or otherwise, of the country's leadership.


Another thing that often gets brought up when North Korea is mentioned is the strange sort of paranoia and international conspiracy vibe you get that all people of the west are agents of an imperialist plot against NK. It is a black and white picture that is painted and that's disturbing. When the truth of the matter is, North Korea is a country that few in the capitalist world care about, that only crops up on the news sometimes because of the tensions in that general area. The only people who do care about it are weird guys who like to ponder over world wars and Stalinist communists who try to use it as an example.
You do not seem to understand that ideology is carried unintentionally, and that people adopt positions and assumptions on things without realising it. You do not have to be intentionally imperialist to take a position that objectively supports imperialism.

Most of peoples views are formed by the views of those around them, as well as material conditions. People don't usually make sure to specifically formulate their position on something with a particular aim in mind. For example, the Germans who voted for Hitler didn't do so as part of a plan to exterminate the Jews; many of them would probably have been shocked by what eventually happened.

refrain from making our army the number four largest in the world at the cost of healthcare, education and everything else
If DPRK hadn't developed its military power the healthcare, education, and everything else would have been destroyed by US-ROK bombs and capital long ago. "Without a peoples' army, the people have nothing."


Now...tell me exactly...defending the so called scialist super state system as you are...why you haven't packed your bags yet to go live there and actually helping them out???
"if you dont like it here, move to russia"

Great revolutionary argument, comrade..

[PhoenixAsh]

If DPRK hadn't developed its military power the healthcare, education, and everything else would have been destroyed by US-ROK bombs and capital long ago. "Without a peoples' army, the people have nothing."



I dispute that theory as "what if historics".

I will respond likewise. Strategically this is nonsense as the US forces and the Korean forces were never strong enough to repel the NK army which was aided by China which would never allow NK to be overrun. Therefore there is non need for a country the size of NK and with such incredible economic difficulties to maintain an army that equals the largests armies in the world.

Instead military doctrine, tested again and again, states that it more logical and efficient to establish a medium force, well trained, well equiped....against superior numbers.







"if you dont like it here, move to russia"

Great revolutionary argument, comrade..

Have you seen in what it is in response to? You either haven't, in which case you should scroll back and see the sarcasm inherrent in it or you have in what case you are a hypocrite for calling me on this obviously sarcastic reply.

[scarletghoul]

Besides, DPRK has never tried to play any sort of pro-active role among the left-wing movement in its respective regionYes it has, and is, in the other half of Korea. It also supported a lot of anti-imperialist struggles, particularly in Africa.
And you cant expect a country to give huge amounts of help to the rest of the world when half of it is still occupied by the USA.

The DPRK seems alright considering the extreme conditions they've been in since the fall of the USSR. The only thing that bothers me is the fucking worship of Kim il Sung and even in some cases Kim Jong Il. Not even the most hardcore of marxist-leninists would act that way about Lenin or Stalin. So would any DPRK supporter care to explain WHY this cultism exists in North Korea?Personality cults unfortunately became a tradition in the 20th century Communist movement (North Korea was born, geographically philosophically and historically, between Stalinist USSR and Maoist China). Also Juche itself has some traditional/confucianist style element which contributes to the patriarchal ideology. The Kim cult arises from a mixture of stalinist style personality cult, confucian influence, Kim il-Sung's genuinely great accomplishments as a revolutionary, and the need to find a strong point of unity to rally people and keep them defending the country together. I oppose it, as most of us do.

That is a matter of opinion...I see no diffeence between imperialism and personality cults. Both are exploitive and both have nothing to do with socialism.
Please explain how a personality cult extracts surplus value.

I ciritice every system, especially systems that try to pose as socialist but are no more than personality cult dictatorships
Please explain how a personality cult forms an independent ruling class.

Your analysis is pitiful tbh. I strongly suggest you look up the word 'materialism'.

But they do get to choose. And that is the point. whoa, you are really defending american 'democracy' ?? The liberal is out in the open for all to see here.

Global warming is not caused by imperialism.
Yes it is. Or, at least, it is maintained by it. Without the imperial-capitalist drive for profit at the expense of the entire world and its resources, humanity would surely have been able to solve this problem by now.

Are they protesting in the streets for imperialism? Seems to me the protests in Egypt are in fact about personality cults and dynastic rulership. ;)Mubarak is hated as an imperial stooge.. Thats one of the main reasons.

In fact, the only North African country to experience no major protests this year is Libya. Gaddafi certainly has a personality cult, and has promoted his children to positions of power. But Libya is a relatively independent country too.


At the least I do NOT defend anti-socialist behaviour on the misguided idea that it brings something better than capitalism. Its worse you fool!! Open your eyes and smell the coffee...
maybe this is a coincidence but middle class white liberals love to drink coffee.

[The Vegan Marxist]

maybe this is a coincidence but middle class white liberals love to drink coffee.

What's wrong with coffee? :( lol

[Kalifornia]

People seem to think that if a regime cannot become a superpower overnight while facing economic sabotage and faced with imperialist aggression, they must be tyranical capitalists in disguise.

DPRK had its infrastructure destroyed, what can they possibly do to make things better?

They are revisionist out of having no other option.

[Kalifornia]

maybe this is a coincidence but middle class white liberals love to drink coffee.

Damn I am partial to a gingerbread Latte.

[scarletghoul]

What's wrong with coffee? :( lol
To be honest i've been living off it for the past month but thats for purely utilitarian reasons as an oppressed student and in no way detracts from the glory of the thoughtless stereotype used above.

[scarletghoul]

Damn I am partial to a gingerbread Latte.
Someone said I was pretentious the other day. I almost choked on my Latte.

[PhoenixAsh]

Please explain how a personality cult extracts surplus value.


Exactly the same as any other dictatorship. :rolleyes:



Please explain how a personality cult forms an independent ruling class.
Exactly how its done in North Korea. :rolleyes:



Your analysis is pitiful tbh. I strongly suggest you look up the word 'materialism'.I strongly suggest you do to. And them look up how the party oligarchy and leadership in those supposed social paradises live. Then reread every book about Marxism...then come back and try to tell me whow exactly what is happening in DPRK is anything socialist.



whoa, you are really defending american 'democracy' ?? The liberal is out in the open for all to see here.Whoah....did you not learn to read? Perhaps you should scroll up and see what I am arguing exactly. Don't look now...but your blatant defence of dynastic personality cults is hanging out of your fly.




Yes it is. Or, at least, it is maintained by it. Without the imperial-capitalist drive for profit at the expense of the entire world and its resources, humanity would surely have been able to solve this problem by now.
Mubarak is hated as an imperial stooge.. Thats one of the main reasons. Maintained is something else than caused. Capitalism caused it. imperialism is just helping it along.

Is he? for what I can see and hear he is mostly detested for his dictatorship and the arguments are that he did not spend the money on the people...NOT that he is an imperialist stooge. In fact...most of the people out there are perfectly happy to back any other imperialist stooge out there. Perhaps not the western imperialist stooges...but imperialist stooges all the same.




In fact, the only North African country to experience no major protests this year is Libya. Gaddafi certainly has a personality cult, and has promoted his children to positions of power. But Libya is a relatively independent country too.Bwaaah...for that same example I can name several examples of capitalist countries who did not have major protests this year. The point is therefore moot. As was my argument in the first place.



maybe this is a coincidence but middle class white liberals love to drink coffee.Yeah...you are ridiculous.

But hey...I love the fact that like your buddy P. you are blindly arguing in favor of dynastic personality cults at the expense of socialism and freedom....that you need to stoop to blatant ad hominems denouncing everybody who does not agree as some sort of imperialist agents or liberal non revolutionary is exactly the reason why we should have an anarchist society NOT run by brainwashed proto-stalinists... thanx for providing that proof over and over and over again :thumbup::thumbup:

O...and FYI...in Holland most factories are the main sources of income from the coffe manufacturing companies ;-) So much for your middle class argument...

[Rusty Shackleford]

Imperialism and Personality Cults are COMPLETELY different. they dont even belong in the same real besides politics in general.

Imperialism is an expansionist issue caused by the drive for more domination of world markets by finance and industry in a host nation. usually includes military aciton, sanctions, embargos, market manipulation and so on.

Personality Cults are just cults.

[PhoenixAsh]

Imperialism and Personality Cults are COMPLETELY different. they dont even belong in the same real besides politics in general.

Imperialism is an expansionist issue caused by the drive for more domination of world markets by finance and industry in a host nation. usually includes military aciton, sanctions, embargos, market manipulation and so on.

Personality Cults are just cults.

agreed that they are different in motivation. however...compared the danger I think there is no difference.

Personality cults are most definately not "just" cults on national levels. Domination is established and equality, genuine workers rule (in this case), free thought, self criticism and freedom go out the window. IMO that is just as bad as imperialism.

[Red Commissar]

On the topic of someone who "visited" North Korea:

http://vienna-pyongyang.blogspot.com/

It is pretty interesting. Don't have much to contribute beyond that.

[A Revolutionary Tool]

Basically, I want to say that you only have right to criticize anybody or organization when you yourself can do something better than that, OTHERWISE NOT. I hope you too will agree that the crippling embargo is the main barrier before the development of DPRK. I just want to know what you have done or want to do regarding that matter? If nothing, then you (and others like you) don't have the right to criticize the DPRK.No I think you're just being illogical. Like I said that's called an ad hominem attack. I don't care if the person making the criticism is a fat slob in his mother's basement who does nothing but criticize things on Revleft, if someone makes a good point either positive or negative does not matter. If a person is right then they're right. Doesn't matter if that makes them a hypocrite, or lazy, or a "armchair revolutionary", if they're right they're right.

I also would find a place where we discuss POLITICS a little useless if we can't be critical of things without establishing a socialist society first.

I'd also like to note you haven't given your revolutionary credentials but you feel like you have the right to be critical or supportive. You also say this same thing to everybody else when you yourself haven't an actual clue about that other person. For all you know I can be the most active person on the left in America :cool:. I could also be that fat slob in my mother's basement. You have no idea though so how you can make that critique of people here is beyond me.



Actually, it seems that the script behind the documentary of National Geographic "documentary" is very good. But, if you really want to see personality cult, just come to India. In India, the southern states, which are comparatively developed in HDI, are just maddeningly worship some people even filmstars. You will see how a lot of temples had been made by the fans of filmstars in the state of Tamilnadu and Andhrapradesh. I myself have seen an ornamented (with original gold, worth Rs. 200,000/$ 4000) statue of N T RamaRao, a film star and former Chief Minister of the state of AndhraPradesh in open in the city of Vizag, a port city.
Most of westerners forgot that Asia has a long history and tradition of feudalism and this is nothing but an extended result of that tradition.
Most probably, the US and imperialist embargo is supplying oxygen to this personality cult. Lift the embargo and let DPRK flourish in natural course, such tendency will soon vanish in thin air.
Cool story bro. Problem is this "worship" of stars is not mutually exclusive to Asia or other "semi-feudal" societies. You can see many statues of statesmen and star personalities in the United States. You won't believe it but we have statues of Sylvester Stallone, statues of John Wayne, of Walt Disney, Ronald Reagan, and others here in the United States. We even have wax museums which is basically a whole museum filled with wax imitations of stars. Don't get me started on this "Jesus Christ" fellow either...

The difference is people don't get in front of a picture of Reagan saying "We praise you" in a fanatical religious way. Well except for that Jesus Christ dude...

[pranabjyoti]

No I think you're just being illogical. Like I said that's called an ad hominem attack. I don't care if the person making the criticism is a fat slob in his mother's basement who does nothing but criticize things on Revleft, if someone makes a good point either positive or negative does not matter. If a person is right then they're right. Doesn't matter if that makes them a hypocrite, or lazy, or a "armchair revolutionary", if they're right they're right.

I also would find a place where we discuss POLITICS a little useless if we can't be critical of things without establishing a socialist society first.

I'd also like to note you haven't given your revolutionary credentials but you feel like you have the right to be critical or supportive. You also say this same thing to everybody else when you yourself haven't an actual clue about that other person. For all you know I can be the most active person on the left in America :cool:. I could also be that fat slob in my mother's basement. You have no idea though so how you can make that critique of people here is beyond me.
Actual clue? "Critics" like have how much actual clue about DPRK? And to people like you, any criticism is a "good" point.

Cool story bro. Problem is this "worship" of stars is not mutually exclusive to Asia or other "semi-feudal" societies. You can see many statues of statesmen and star personalities in the United States. You won't believe it but we have statues of Sylvester Stallone, statues of John Wayne, of Walt Disney, Ronald Reagan, and others here in the United States. We even have wax museums which is basically a whole museum filled with wax imitations of stars. Don't get me started on this "Jesus Christ" fellow either...

The difference is people don't get in front of a picture of Reagan saying "We praise you" in a fanatical religious way. Well except for that Jesus Christ dude...
Well, I have said "even film stars" and that means political figures are also included. N T Rama Rao, the name I mentioned was former Chief Minister of Andhra Pradesh. I want to know how many churches are there erected in the filmstars? And having temples means such kind of praying is also done there? Now, can you understand the level of personality cult?

[A Revolutionary Tool]

Actual clue? "Critics" like have how much actual clue about DPRK? And to people like you, any criticism is a "good" point.More ad hom, so surprising ;). To people like you any criticism is imperialism and bourgeois decadence. See what I did there? Except your expressed opinions actually seem to be just that. "Don't criticize it because the West does" seems to be the narrative.


Well, I have said "even film stars" and that means political figures are also included. N T Rama Rao, the name I mentioned was former Chief Minister of Andhra Pradesh. I want to know how many churches are there erected in the filmstars? And having temples means such kind of praying is also done there? Now, can you understand the level of personality cult?
But you are failing to see that the same can be said of situations in the West. Personality cults exist in our country just like they do in India. And you don't really have to go far in the United States to see people seemingly worshiping celebrities. Just look in a teen/pre-teen girls room to see the whole room plastered with Beiber or that werewolf guy from the Twilight Saga. That's how my sister's room is.

[PhoenixAsh]

Actual clue? "Critics" like have how much actual clue about DPRK? And to people like you, any criticism is a "good" point.

And you, as you yourself admitted have little clue about DPRK aswell....


With my little knowledge of DPRK,

Just pointing out the bright light of hypocracy shining out of your eyes. :cool:

[pranabjyoti]

They do NOT elect their head of state. Which is the point of dynasties...you do not get to choose and neither do the three parties in DPRK.
Wonderful knowledge about DPRK! I just want to inform you that Kim Jong IL wasn't choosed by his father but rather choosed by the assembly.

But they do get to choose. And that is the point.
Wonderful result of the "right of choice" that we are observing so far.

He did? Seems to me the people elected her in a narrow victory.
The assembly elected Kim Jong Il with a far greater margin.

But they have chosen. You are contradicting yourself. Either its a dynasty or its an elected grovernment representative.
Does that mean as the father was a leader, the people can not choose the son?

Comparing a flawed system based on elections with a dynastic presidency is a farce in itself.
Better than psedo-democratic practices practiced in your own country.

You are defending something that has nothing to do with socialism and try to pass it of as socialism. You are so blinded by your trench mentality that you are prepared to defend everything socialism is againt because it pretends to be socialism...
At least it has some relation with proper education, healthcare and other basic amenities. That may not be socialism to you but a good factor to me.

no they are not...only in your mind...they sink as rapidly as your dignity.
So far the strong imperialist embargo haven't been able to do much. What can foul cries of an "armchair critic" like you do?

[pranabjyoti]

And you, as you yourself admitted have little clue about DPRK aswell....
At least I know better than you in this regard. And I don't have the habit of jumping into debate without properly knowing anything.


Just pointing out the bright light of hypocracy shining out of your eyes. :cool:
Better than brainwashed ignorance.

[PhoenixAsh]

Wonderful knowledge about DPRK! I just want to inform you that Kim Jong IL wasn't choosed by his father but rather choosed by the assembly.

Yeah...sure. You can argue that Clinton handed Clinton the sentaorship but hey...Kim Jong IL was chosen ;-) wonderful consistency in your arguments1



Wonderful result of the "right of choice" that we are observing so far.


I have never stated it was perfect. In fact I did state it was flawed. But as far as dynastic rulership goes and actualy involvement of the people
its actually participatory.



The assembly elected Kim Jong Il with a far greater margin.


Yeah...and Mubarak was elected wityh 90% of the votes. Again...something about opening eyes and coffee



Does that mean as the father was a leader, the people can not choose the son?

In DPRK they can't....that is my point ;)



Better than psedo-democratic practices practiced in your own country.


yeah..that arguments makes no sense as a counter to my argument whatsoever.



At least it has some relation with proper education, healthcare and other basic amenities. That may not be socialism to you but a good factor to me.

the point is that there is no proper health care, education states the leader is a god and basic amenities is something of a fall back when you have no freedom. That makes it alright then?



So far the strong imperialist embargo haven't been able to do much. What can foul cries of an "armchair critic" like you do?

Yeah..again...that makes no sense at all. :)
You do not have a boat...you are holding on to a live jacket here....

But hey...I´ll tell my friends what kind of arm chair critic I am according to you. now tell me again how thick your agency file was again?

[Ismail]

Just assuming no one replied to this:

The thing that bugged me was their sense of security, can't take pics of certain things, can't walk around on your own, and they kinda tried to hide the slums. Just seems eerie.How is that different from tours in most other "socialist" countries? 1980's Nicaragua, Cuba, Maoist China, and other "socialist" countries did similar things.

In fact the USSR went a lot further than the DPRK does. Soviet tours basically made people feel like celebrities. The Soviet tour guides would assign people who were acquainted with a tourist's works and would basically surround said tourist with a bunch of sycophants who would heap praise about their works. In some cases they'd be subjected to reading sessions, ballet performances, stage plays, etc. Anna Louise Strong (who was an American who lived in the USSR) described how thanks to Lenin those in prison camps were happy to stay because they were being treated so well and in some cases refused to be let out. Cuba and Maoist China did similar things.

A good (if anti-communist) book on how all these governments did similar stuff to what the DPRK does today is Paul Hollander's Political Pilgrims (originally written in 1981 and updated in 1998.) The DPRK is obviously presenting an overly "all is well" image to tourists, and of course the vast majority of tourists from the West already know about the recent economic problems afflicting the economy, so it's all obviously one-sided, but the DPRK didn't pioneer this technique.

[pranabjyoti]

Just assuming no one replied to this:
How is that different from tours in most other "socialist" countries? 1980's Nicaragua, Cuba, Maoist China, and other "socialist" countries did similar things.

In fact the USSR went a lot further than the DPRK does. Soviet tours basically made people feel like celebrities. The Soviet tour guides would assign people who were acquainted with a tourist's works and would basically surround said tourist with a bunch of sycophants who would heap praise about their works. In some cases they'd be subjected to reading sessions, ballet performances, stage plays, etc. Anna Louise Strong (who was an American who lived in the USSR) described how thanks to Lenin those in prison camps were happy to stay because they were being treated so well and in some cases refused to be let out. Cuba and Maoist China did similar things.

A good (if anti-communist) book on how all these governments did similar stuff to what the DPRK does today is Paul Hollander's Political Pilgrims (originally written in 1981 and updated in 1998.) The DPRK is obviously presenting an overly "all is well" image to tourists, and of course the vast majority of tourists from the West already know about the recent economic problems afflicting the economy, so it's all obviously one-sided, but the DPRK didn't pioneer this technique.
Why only "socialist"? Recently, during the Commonwealth Games, slums of New Delhi had been covered from roadside with big hoardings.

[Ismail]

Why only "socialist"? Recently, during the Commonwealth Games, slums of New Delhi had been covered from roadside with big hoardings.I know, just making a point. The DPRK isn't an aberration in this regard, though "socialist" states go a bit further than ideologically capitalist states since "socialist" states have tourists in these cases for political reasons.

[A Revolutionary Tool]

Wonderful knowledge about DPRK! I just want to inform you that Kim Jong IL wasn't choosed by his father but rather choosed by the assembly.
Who was the other options? How much you want to bet that if there was other options they didn't have a cult of personality surrounding their father?


The assembly elected Kim Jong Il with a far greater margin.Let me guess, he got 100%? No 110%!? It's like when Raul Castro was "elected" with 100% of the vote even though he was the only one you could possibly vote for.


At least it has some relation with proper education, healthcare and other basic amenities. That may not be socialism to you but a good factor to me.Just like the social democratic countries? At least in those countries I am not subject to the cult of a "Great Leader", am allowed my free speech, my right to have a dissenting opinion, etc. You may point out these are not absolute, but I bet they would be far greater than they are in North Korea.


So far the strong imperialist embargo haven't been able to do much. What can foul cries of an "armchair critic" like you do?
What the fuck? Here's what you said to me a page or two ago:

I hope you too will agree that the crippling embargo is the main barrier before the development of DPRK.

Most probably, the US and imperialist embargo is supplying oxygen to this personality cult. Lift the embargo and let DPRK flourish in natural course, such tendency will soon vanish in thin air.

So which one is it? The embargoes either barely been able to do much to North Korea or it's "crippling" and is the main barrier to the development of the DPRK and is fueling this personality cult. Seriously you're just embarrassing yourself now, just stop before you do more damage to yourself.

[The Vegan Marxist]

Here's a great chronicle over everything a visitor of the DPRK saw and learned. It goes through practically everything you want to know about the DPRK:

http://coreasocialista.blogspot.com/p/cronicas-de-un-viaje-corea-por-juan.html

[Obs]

everything you've posted in this entire thread

Please, stop. You're doing nothing but making ad hominems and stupid jokes. You have yet to make an argument, and by the way you casually throw that word around, I'm starting to think you don't actually know what an argument is. You've made several statements, sure - but no arguments.

[Sir Comradical]

I get the feeling that that particular picture and bit of commentary isn't meant to be a critique of the society, but rather an observation.

I also get the feeling that there are more important things to discuss from this besides the use of plastic ware. Such as:

"On your arrival you will be assigned to a guide and a driver. That will constantly follow you. You can't leave the hotel on your own."

Paranoia or legitimate security fears? I tend to lean towards the latter but it's something we'll never know.



"A NK beach, electrified barbed-wire so the NK citiziens wouln't swim away"


Electrified barbed wire in one of the most heavily militarised places on earth? No way!



"In every place you will have a Pole with a citation of the great leader."


I'd prefer quotes written everywhere instead of "WANT TO LAST LONGER IN BED?' and other such corporate faeces smeared all over my city.



"Every citizen has a pin of Kim Il Song"


Meh.



"you can't move freely in NK, you need authorisations, and you have check-points everywhere. When the car crossed teh check point, the driver flashed the lights, perhaps its a meaning that a forigner is on board."

Perhaps this guy takes himself a little to seriously. North Korea doesn't revolve around his existence.



"All the forigners got to visit the main park, locals were denied admission"


I admit, this seems a little dodgy.

[PhoenixAsh]

Please, stop. You're doing nothing but making ad hominems and stupid jokes. You have yet to make an argument, and by the way you casually throw that word around, I'm starting to think you don't actually know what an argument is. You've made several statements, sure - but no arguments.


I made several arguments, that you do not count them as arguments because tehy do not agree with you, and do not fit in yhour nice little world taht every socialists needs to rally behind the banner of a dynastic personality cult that espouses to be socialist doesn't make them less so.

To retirate my arguments:

1). the health care of DPRK is nothing to be proud of. Its dilapitated and it doesn't provide free health care at all. Yet teh country manages to have enough fund to support the fourth largest military apparatus in the world.

2). There is a huge deification and personality cult around the great leader. Which does not bode well for workers control and in fact is counter socialism. this also infringes on personal autonomy. This creates a seperate ruling class over the workers.

3). There is dynastic leadership. Again something that is against socialism. And again...this creates a seperate ruling class.

4). There are no free elections of the head of state and there is no direct worker participation in politics. Again...not socialist. Again...this creates a seperate ruling class.

5). There is no freedom. I will expand on this: people can not leave the country easilly and they need permission to travel. People can also not enter the country freely.

6). There is no dynastic rule in the US. Though there are dynastic political families they still need to get elected directly by the people. however flawed that system is it does involve a participatory system.


IF I get a response to this that I can not critisize the DPRK because I am an armchair socialist, imperialist agent and can not provide leadership of a better socialist system myself....yeah...you bet your sweet ass I get combattive.

So basically FU for being a lying troll.

[Kalifornia]

I made several arguments, that you do not count them as arguments because tehy do not agree with you, and do not fit in yhour nice little world taht every socialists needs to rally behind the banner of a dynastic personality cult that espouses to be socialist doesn't make them less so.

To retirate my arguments:

1). the health care of DPRK is nothing to be proud of. Its dilapitated and it doesn't provide free health care at all. Yet teh country manages to have enough fund to support the fourth largest military apparatus in the world.

2). There is a huge deification and personality cult around the great leader. Which does not bode well for workers control and in fact is counter socialism. this also infringes on personal autonomy. This creates a seperate ruling class over the workers.

3). There is dynastic leadership. Again something that is against socialism. And again...this creates a seperate ruling class.

4). There are no free elections of the head of state and there is no direct worker participation in politics. Again...not socialist. Again...this creates a seperate ruling class.

5). There is no freedom. I will expand on this: people can not leave the country easilly and they need permission to travel. People can also not enter the country freely.

6). There is no dynastic rule in the US. Though there are dynastic political families they still need to get elected directly by the people. however flawed that system is it does involve a participatory system.


IF I get a response to this that I can not critisize the DPRK because I am an armchair socialist, imperialist agent and can not provide leadership of a better socialist system myself....yeah...you bet your sweet ass I get combattive.

So basically FU for being a lying troll.

Yeah being a socialist country is hard when the entire world is antagonistic towards you, you have had your infrastructure destroyed by American and British imperialists and then face sanctions and the threat of invasion.

This is what utopians do not understand, things are hard for those fighing imperialism and capitalism, what would left communists do when they abolish government straight away?

Of course everything would be ok if the DPRK was controlled along Anarchist lines, with all that unproductive land they could just grow carrots and form militias to
defend from the Marines:rolleyes:

[Obs]

I made several arguments, that you do not count them as arguments because tehy do not agree with you, and do not fit in yhour nice little world taht every socialists needs to rally behind the banner of a dynastic personality cult that espouses to be socialist doesn't make them less so.

To retirate my arguments:

1). the health care of DPRK is nothing to be proud of. Its dilapitated and it doesn't provide free health care at all. Yet teh country manages to have enough fund to support the fourth largest military apparatus in the world.

2). There is a huge deification and personality cult around the great leader. Which does not bode well for workers control and in fact is counter socialism. this also infringes on personal autonomy. This creates a seperate ruling class over the workers.

3). There is dynastic leadership. Again something that is against socialism. And again...this creates a seperate ruling class.

4). There are no free elections of the head of state and there is no direct worker participation in politics. Again...not socialist. Again...this creates a seperate ruling class.

5). There is no freedom. I will expand on this: people can not leave the country easilly and they need permission to travel. People can also not enter the country freely.

6). There is no dynastic rule in the US. Though there are dynastic political families they still need to get elected directly by the people. however flawed that system is it does involve a participatory system.


IF I get a response to this that I can not critisize the DPRK because I am an armchair socialist, imperialist agent and can not provide leadership of a better socialist system myself....yeah...you bet your sweet ass I get combattive.

So basically FU for being a lying troll.

Yeah, except these are not arguments. An argument consists of a claim and a basis for that claim. You've only made a bunch of claims with nothing to back it up. For all of these claims to work, you need to first define socialism and then explain why we should subscribe to your narrowminded, useless definition.

[psgchisolm]

Yeah being a socialist country is hard when the entire world is antagonistic towards you, you have had your infrastructure destroyed by American and British imperialists and then face sanctions and the threat of invasion.

This is what utopians do not understand, things are hard for those fighing imperialism and capitalism, what would left communists do when they abolish government straight away?

Of course everything would be ok if the DPRK was controlled along Anarchist lines, with all that unproductive land they could just grow carrots and form militias to
defend from the Marines:rolleyes:
How long ago was that infrastructure destroyed? With all of that 99% or so employment they don't have enough people to build trains and pave roads?
What threats of invasions have they faced in the last 10 years? Our military has been preoccupied with iraq and afghanistan for all of that time. Again why do you need the 4th largest army in the world? Why do you need to test nuclear missiles? So you can spend hundreds of thousands on a military that sits unused and a nuclear weapons program but can't afford to pave yroads and rebuild infrastructure and work on productive things towards everyday life?

[psgchisolm]

Yeah being a socialist country is hard when the entire world is antagonistic towards you, you have had your infrastructure destroyed by American and British imperialists and then face sanctions and the threat of invasion.

This is what utopians do not understand, things are hard for those fighing imperialism and capitalism, what would left communists do when they abolish government straight away?

Of course everything would be ok if the DPRK was controlled along Anarchist lines, with all that unproductive land they could just grow carrots and form militias to
defend from the Marines:rolleyes:
How long ago was that infrastructure destroyed? With that 99% employment rates you'd expect they'd have people workong on that wouldn't you?

What threat of invasion have they faced in the last 10 years? The U.S. has been occupied in Iraq and Afghanistan for that time. What point is having the 4th Largest military in the world if it sits unused. Why do you even need nuclear weapons? What's the point in spending millions on a military that sits unused and testing Nuclear Weapons?

[PhoenixAsh]

Yeah being a socialist country is hard when the entire world is antagonistic towards you, you have had your infrastructure destroyed by American and British imperialists and then face sanctions and the threat of invasion.

This is what utopians do not understand, things are hard for those fighing imperialism and capitalism, what would left communists do when they abolish government straight away?

Of course everything would be ok if the DPRK was controlled along Anarchist lines, with all that unproductive land they could just grow carrots and form militias to
defend from the Marines:rolleyes:

Again... these are excuses. Excuses do not cut it. DPRK is not a socialist country. Its a system based around a dynastic personality cult in which the workers are made subjective to political elites around the deified leader and everything is made subordinate to keep the system going by militarisation.

Its feudaklism wrapped in red banner.

[PhoenixAsh]

Yeah, except these are not arguments. An argument consists of a claim and a basis for that claim. You've only made a bunch of claims with nothing to back it up. For all of these claims to work, you need to first define socialism and then explain why we should subscribe to your narrowminded, useless definition.

No...an argument is a line of reasoning that claims truth or falsehood of an initial statement....or a fact or argument put foreward as reason. perhaps you need to reread the definition.

In this case the statement was that DPRK is a socialist country. I have argued against that by giving arguments.

You do NOT get to redirect the burden of proof.

We all know what socialism is and personality cults, deified leaders, political elites which distinctly live better and above the general population and have more freedom, no workers controll, militarisation at the expense of health care, education based on the assumption the great leader is a god aren't part of it.

If you want to claim falsehood of these arguments you need to provide evidence that they in fact do belong to socialism or you need to provide arguments disproving my arguments.

You are able to do neither. The only argument you guys seem to be able to put foreward is that it MIGHT be better than capitalist imperialism, that its hard for the poor North Korean dictators to establish real socialism.

These are not arguments but excuses. Excuses do NOT cut it.

[Ismail]

The military budget argument is one of the weakest IMO. The amount the DPRK spends on its military certainly is huge, but it's also highly relative.

As has been noted elsewhere (http://sites.google.com/site/nzdprksociety/commentary/the-dprk-is-not-a-strong-military-power-by-hazel-smith--professor-of-international-relations--warick-university), "The DPRK annual defence budget is dwarfed by that of its neighbours at US$2 billion in 2005 compared with Japan’s US$45 billion and South Korea’s US$21 billion. In addition, per capita spending on its huge armed forces has to cover food, clothing, housing and health supplies as well as every aspect of what would normally come from a civilian infrastructure in a developed state – telecommunications, transport, food supplies and agricultural production. This is because the social infrastructure barely functions and the civilian industrial fabric has all but disappeared since the economic meltdown of the 1980s." The US military budget is something like over $650 billion.

[Kalifornia]

Yeah these are legitimate reasons why the DPRK is poor.

They could just become a lackey capitalist neo colony to the US, improve their conditions by partaking in the plunder of Africa and Latin America, that is afterall, how we are afforded luxuries that the peopleof the DPRK cannot get, as they produce for themselves, their Government does not rob produce from the third world.

[PhoenixAsh]

Yeah these are legitimate reasons why the DPRK is poor.

They could just become a lackey capitalist neo colony to the US, improve their conditions by partaking in the plunder of Africa and Latin America, that is afterall, how we are afforded luxuries that the peopleof the DPRK cannot get, as they produce for themselves, their Government does not rob produce from the third world.


Can you explain...how in a socialist country...the party leadership does get to have luxuries, does get to send their children to foreign universities and is able to aford new cars?

[The Vegan Marxist]

Can you explain...how in a socialist country...the party leadership does get to have luxuries, does get to send their children to foreign universities and is able to aford new cars?

New car developments have been taking place in the DPRK actually. As a comrade from the DPRK has mentioned to me, more and more people are able to acquire cars, and they're getting bigger than before.

So the only thing I see that you need to explain is your definition of cars being "luxurious" and then back up your claims.

[Geiseric]

Cuba has almost the same restrictions as NK to my understanding, and people there are happy, with people going there often and witnesing how cuban socialism works well. North Korea has visitors every so often, under a guided tour. The journalists there say how bleak and depressing it is. What is the difference between cuba and NK? Both are 3rd world U.S. Embargod countries, and both are apparently communist. Something different must be in the political leadership.

[PhoenixAsh]

The military budget argument is one of the weakest IMO. The amount the DPRK spends on its military certainly is huge, but it's also highly relative.

As has been noted elsewhere (http://sites.google.com/site/nzdprksociety/commentary/the-dprk-is-not-a-strong-military-power-by-hazel-smith--professor-of-international-relations--warick-university), "The DPRK annual defence budget is dwarfed by that of its neighbours at US$2 billion in 2005 compared with Japan’s US$45 billion and South Korea’s US$21 billion. In addition, per capita spending on its huge armed forces has to cover food, clothing, housing and health supplies as well as every aspect of what would normally come from a civilian infrastructure in a developed state – telecommunications, transport, food supplies and agricultural production. This is because the social infrastructure barely functions and the civilian industrial fabric has all but disappeared since the economic meltdown of the 1980s." The US military budget is something like over $650 billion.



Its not the military budget as such. Its the military budget compared to the internal situation. As such the health expenditure is 2.9% of the GDP.

(source: WHO)

Its military expenditure in 2008 was 4 billion US dollars. That is 14.2% of the GDP. The DPRK estimated GDP, as they do not publish one, is somewhere arount 28 billion dollars per annum. That makes the military expenditure the second larges % expenditure in the world right after Eritrea with 20.9%

(source: Janes)

[PhoenixAsh]

New car developments have been taking place in the DPRK actually. As a comrade from the DPRK has mentioned to me, more and more people are able to acquire cars, and they're getting bigger than before.

So the only thing I see that you need to explain is your definition of cars being "luxurious" and then back up your claims.

well actually you need to back up your claims...hear say does not negate the fact that we all see the 100's of pictures and tourist logs telling us little cars are there.

What is clear however from other pictures is that the party leadership is driven around in new mercedez cars. As well as export lists from Mercedez itself. Aswell as from the visit of Kim Jung il to China in his armoured train car...he took his cars ;-)

I would also like to note that I said cars are a luxury...NOT that the cars are luxurious. But I'll play ball with you for now.

[Kotze]

What is the difference between cuba and NK? Both are 3rd world U.S. Embargod countries, and both are apparently communist.The natural endowments are very different, Cuba is in a much better situation regarding climate and the amount of arable land relative to the population. Dunno if that explains everything.

[PhoenixAsh]

The natural endowments are very different, Cuba is in a much better situation regarding climate and the amount of arable land relative to the population. Dunno if that explains everything.

Hmm...22% DPRK as opposed to 27% cuba

226520 sq.km. DPRK opposed to 1003 sqkm Cuba in arable land both calculated as per country size.

24 million residents in North Korea....11 million residents in Cuba. Both rounded down.


I think North Korea has actually more arable land per capita than Cuba....in fact...loads mora arable land than Cuba per capita. In fact...more than 20 times as much arable land.

In Cuba there is less than 1 square meter (0.9) arable land pro capita. In North Korea there is 20.5 square meters pro capita.


As for the climate...

80% of the arable land is located in the flatlands which have long growing seasons, temperate climate conditions, good irregated soil conditions and plenty of natural rainfall are actually quite favorable to agriculture.

So no...those are not the main reasons for the difference.

[los.barbaros.ganan]

When people say that North Koreans don't eat much and don't live well, it's not a lie. They are not too hot compared to SE Asia.

http://apps.who.int/nutrition/landscape/report.aspx?iso=prk

and if you look at Cubas stats, it becomes clear that the WHO is not out to slander anti-American states.

a lot of no data's and old data's
and a parlement with more women then are in the parlement ( 107% ???)

Nice work WHO

[los.barbaros.ganan]

Cuba has almost the same restrictions as NK to my understanding, and people there are happy, with people going there often and witnesing how cuban socialism works well. North Korea has visitors every so often, under a guided tour. The journalists there say how bleak and depressing it is. What is the difference between cuba and NK? Both are 3rd world U.S. Embargod countries, and both are apparently communist. Something different must be in the political leadership.

In cuba it is forbidden to have monuments for living revolutionary leaders, in Korea.....it speaks for itself

[Ismail]

Cuba has almost the same restrictions as NK to my understanding, and people there are happy, with people going there often and witnesing how cuban socialism works well. North Korea has visitors every so often, under a guided tour. The journalists there say how bleak and depressing it is.Actually DPRK guided tours in the 1950's, 60's and 70's got good receptions. In the 1980's it went downhill because the Soviets and Chinese were less willing to send large amounts of aid to the government, and obviously now it's significantly different.

Also Cuba attracts tons of tourists who flock to its beaches and such. The DPRK attracts people who want to see a failed state.


What is the difference between cuba and NK? Both are 3rd world U.S. Embargod countries, and both are apparently communist. Something different must be in the political leadership.The difference that in the 1990's many speculated that Cuba could have easily degenerated into a famine similar to the DPRK's. Hence the "Special Period (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special_Period)" that Cuba underwent.

The economic situation is also significantly different in pretty much all areas from foreign relations to the issue of the land.

From a 1999 analysis (http://ml-review.ca/aml/China/KoreaNS.htm) of the DPRK:

An additional cause of the economic decline over the last four years has been represented by natural calamites and their damages to the infra-structures of the country. Traditionally, conditions for farming have always been unfavourable in North Korea since mountains represent nearly three quarters of its territory and arable fields account for about 16% of the land. Extensive floods in 1995 and 1996, followed by the worst drought in decades in 1997, severely damaged the country’s economy and seriously undermined the government’s ability to feed the population. Natural disasters during 1998 - such as downpours, hailstorms, strong winds and tidal waves affecting crops, vegetable and rice harvests - further jeopardised the DPRK’s economic capacity. And to complete the picture of natural calamities during 1998: thousands of hectares of paddy and non-paddy fields together with more than 180 mining pits were submerged in water. Electricity supplies were suspended and telecommunication networks were paralysed. Roads and railways were completely destroyed by landslides, dwelling houses and buildings were also destroyed in some of the affected areas with people reported missing or dead.

The economic situation has now reached a critical point, particularly highlighted by severe food shortages. Standards of living are better in the capital - with shops mainly selling biscuits, drinks and dried fish - but they are appalling in the countryside. Although the current ration of rice (mid-1998) amounts to 450 grams per person per day, it can be less in some areas especially damaged by natural disasters. This situation has led to the flourishing of a black market, but at a very low-key level. Reports of starvation remain unsubstantiated, but malnutrition is evident in the countryside as people wander around rivers and fields in search of fish or grass. Peasants toil on the land with very rudimentary tools, having to walk for long distances without cycles or other means of transportation. Agricultural machinery and tractors are now visible only in the Three-Revolution Exhibition in Pyongyang. Interruptions to electricity and water supply are frequent and the transport system is very inefficient. Because of energy shortages, few factories seem to be functioning and in some areas the survival of the people depends on "humanitarian" aid or projects from UN or non-governmental foreign organisations.

Coping with such an acute and deep crisis, not only has the government been forced to appeal for humanitarian aid from abroad (which is mainly donated by the UN World Food Programme, the USA, Japan, China, the EU, etc.), but it has also allowed provisions for greater foreign investments into the country. The entire population is, in the meantime, mobilised by channelling all energies to solve the food crisis collectively and going voluntarily to the countryside to help farmers. People are constantly reminded about the economic crisis through television, papers, meetings at workplaces . . . and urged to find adequate solutions with the patriotic "Chollima" spirit. During the first half of 1998, for example, more than 1,900 minor power stations have been built across the country by using flowing water, wind power, methane, charcoal gas and other power resources.
In cuba it is forbidden to have monuments for living revolutionary leaders, in Korea.....it speaks for itselfYes, Kim Il Sung statues are why the DPRK is subject to famines while Cuba merely only got threatened with one in the early 1990's. Great analysis.

[StalinFanboy]

Yeah these are legitimate reasons why the DPRK is poor.

They could just become a lackey capitalist neo colony to the US, improve their conditions by partaking in the plunder of Africa and Latin America, that is afterall, how we are afforded luxuries that the peopleof the DPRK cannot get, as they produce for themselves, their Government does not rob produce from the third world.

Unless the government in DPRK consists of worker controlled councils with directly recallable representatives (at worst), then the government is robbing from the workers.

[The Vegan Marxist]

Unless the government in DPRK consists of worker controlled councils with directly recallable representatives (at worst), then the government is robbing from the workers.

Yeah, because the WPK councils are filled with bourgeois CEO capitalists, running big industrial corporations, exploiting the worker's labor force. :rolleyes:

[Geiseric]

They're filled with a different caste of beurecrats who are their own class in themselves. They are above the workers, it's like what happened in the U.S.S.R, only they can't develop at all since all of their resources go to the military.

[StalinFanboy]

Yeah, because the WPK councils are filled with bourgeois CEO capitalists, running big industrial corporations, exploiting the worker's labor force. :rolleyes:

You realize that the state is playing the role of the private bourgeoisie, right? Capitalism is a lot more complex than just "proletariat v. bourgeoisie," and you make a mockery of actual communists by thinking that it is.

And sick dude, DPRK might have free healthcare and shit, but that doesn't change or alleviate the condition of the workers... that is, alienated from their labor and exploited.

[The Vegan Marxist]

They're filled with a different caste of beurecrats who are their own class in themselves. They are above the workers, it's like what happened in the U.S.S.R, only they can't develop at all since all of their resources go to the military.

I want you to prove that to me.


You realize that the state is playing the role of the private bourgeoisie, right?

And I want you to prove that to me as well.

My guess is that you won't be able to back up your claim. Or at least without distorting a correct materialist argument in doing so.

[Kotze]

I think North Korea has actually more arable land per capita than Cuba....in fact...loads mora arable land than Cuba per capita. In fact...more than 20 times as much arable land.In fact, I believe it would be a good idea if we check those numbers again. :D

You do agree that arable land as a proportion of the whole area is higher in Cuba, no? I looked up UN population-density data (people per square km) (http://esa.un.org/unpp/) for 2005.

Cuba: 101
DPRK: 195

[Tavarisch_Mike]

Cuba has almost the same restrictions as NK to my understanding, and people there are happy, with people going there often and witnesing how cuban socialism works well. North Korea has visitors every so often, under a guided tour. The journalists there say how bleak and depressing it is. What is the difference between cuba and NK? Both are 3rd world U.S. Embargod countries, and both are apparently communist. Something different must be in the political leadership.

Not really. Cuba has allies, like in the ALBA and theive started some good trading with China. On the surface people might seem happy but underneath evryone is worrying for the future, i was there around christmas and people said how things are going down, the 'guaguas' (public busses) where literally filled to theire limits while in the same time there where new busses thats where just for turists only.
Also this year around 1 Million! workers in public sector is going to loos theire jobs, capitalism has really started to entering Cuba and theire socialist system is starting to crack a little bit,tourism might have saved the economy but it laso started a creasing gap between classes and making corruption stronger.

The amount of information you can get out of Cuba is not comparable with what you can get out of NK (neither theire economical situations), soo in this case comparing the two countries just isnt accurate.

[PhoenixAsh]

In fact, I believe it would be a good idea if we check those numbers again. :D

You do agree that arable land as a proportion of the whole area is higher in Cuba, no? I looked up UN population-density data (people per square km) (http://esa.un.org/unpp/) for 2005.

Cuba: 101
DPRK: 195

Population density has nothing to do with arable land....sine it does not give population spread. Arable land is the land that can be used for crops.

Those numbers I gave you are correct.

[pranabjyoti]

Most of DPRK consists of mountains while that of Cuba is plains. DPRK belongs to temperate, while Cuba is tropical island. THAT MEANS a huge part of the year, lands of DPRK are covered with snow i.e. no agriculture can be done. While no such factor is present in Cuba.

[Kotze]

@hindsight 20/20:

I don't believe the part with "226520 sq.km. DPRK opposed to 1003 sqkm Cuba in arable land" is true. Because as far as I know the whole area of the DPRK, arable or not, is less than the first number you gave in what I quote here. I'm not saying every number you posted is wrong, but our conclusions crucially depend on that specific number being true.

This UN statistics PDF from 2008 (http://unstats.un.org/unsd/demographic/products/dyb/dyb2008/Table03.pdf) is incomplete regarding the DPRK, but it does have information regarding the DPRK's total surface area: 120538 sqkm. The CIA World Factbook gives the same number.

If you don't mind visiting the CIA's website, here are the links:
CIA World Factbook: Cuba (https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/geos/cu.html)
CIA World Factbook: DPRK (https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/geos/kn.html)

Some claims made in the CIA World Factbook:

TOTAL AREA
Cuba: 110,860 sqkm (water: 1,040 sqkm)
DPRK: 120,538 sqkm (water: 130 sqkm)

ARABLE LAND
Cuba: 27.63%
DPRK: 22.4%

POPULATION SIZE
Cuba: 11,477,459
DPRK: 22,757,275

Let's work with this. What is the amount of people relative to a sqkm of arable land? This should be more informative than just using area, like I did in my last post.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think to first get arable land in sqkm I must do this

(total area - water part) * arable land percentage / 100

For Cuba, that should be 109820 * 0.2763 = 30343.266.
For the DPRK that should be 120408 * 0.224 = 26971.392

After that, divide population by arable land in square km.

POPULATION PER SQKM OF ARABLE LAND (rounded)
Cuba 378
DPRK 844

Did I do anything wrong here? Given that the percentage of arable land is lower in the DPRK, it shouldn't surprise that the difference between these two countries now looks even bigger than with comparing population density.

I know to take statements by the CIA with a grain of salt, but surely they don't make shit up regarding the total area size, because people have means to check this. Besides, it's not the case that these nations' relations with the US government differ much, so if there is an ideological bias at work here, it probably influences the descriptions of both countries in a similar way.

Given area and population sizes and the climate differences, even if the numbers aren't perfectly reliable it looks like Cuba has much better natural endowments to directly feed its own population, hence these countries are differently vulnerable to trade restrictions.

[PhoenixAsh]

You are absolutely correct. I went over my calculations again and made a few errors in converting from miles to km and back. :blushing: (edit: what a f* bloody disgrace...no excuse...:mellow:) Also made a mistake correcting for coastal waters.

Thanks for correcting this.

[PhoenixAsh]

Most of DPRK consists of mountains while that of Cuba is plains. DPRK belongs to temperate, while Cuba is tropical island. THAT MEANS a huge part of the year, lands of DPRK are covered with snow i.e. no agriculture can be done. While no such factor is present in Cuba.


Your assesments about the climate of DPRK is not true for the whole country. Its true for the north...where the mountains are. The climate of the plains where 80% of the arable lands is is very good for agriculture....and has very long planting seasons....about 8 ouf 12 months are suitable for crop growing.

You also need to take into account that tropical soils are not always very futile or suitable for a wide variety of vegitation as does the amount of rainfall limit the possibilities. Cuba can not grow wheats and barley in very large amount. This is not a serious problem for DPRK.

[StalinFanboy]

And I want you to prove that to me as well.

My guess is that you won't be able to back up your claim. Or at least without distorting a correct materialist argument in doing so.

Again, unless the government in the DPRK consists of worker controlled councils (or a similar form of political organization) with directly recallable representatives, then the "state" is not proletarian. This means that workers are not in control of their labor any more or less than workers in any other capitalist country.

Also, considering we live in a totally capitalist world, the DPRK has to be capitalist in order to trade with what little allies they have. Workers are still exploited and alienated from their labor.

It's called logic, and having a basic understanding of how capitalism works.

[pranabjyoti]

Again, unless the government in the DPRK consists of worker controlled councils (or a similar form of political organization) with directly recallable representatives, then the "state" is not proletarian. This means that workers are not in control of their labor any more or less than workers in any other capitalist country.
Which government so far has been consists of "workers councils"? Can you show just one example?

Also, considering we live in a totally capitalist world, the DPRK has to be capitalist in order to trade with what little allies they have. Workers are still exploited and alienated from their labor.
Well, just tell me which class is the beneficiary of the surplus wages of the workers? The "dictatorial, dynastic, authoritarian" party cadre class or the "bureaucratic bourgeoisie" class? Workers are exploited means the surplus must be going somewhere. THAT'S LOGIC TOO.

It's called logic, and having a basic understanding of how capitalism works.
Capitalism works by sucking the "surplus value" from the workers and handing it over to bourgeoisie. Kindly answer my question in this light.

[gorillafuck]

Here's a great chronicle over everything a visitor of the DPRK saw and learned. It goes through practically everything you want to know about the DPRK:

http://coreasocialista.blogspot.com/p/cronicas-de-un-viaje-corea-por-juan.html
Just out of curiosity, why are visitor tours not reliable unless they're pro-DPRK to some people?

[The Vegan Marxist]

Just out of curiosity, why are visitor tours not reliable unless they're pro-DPRK to some people?

Each tourist holds some kind of bias before they enter the DPRK - whether it be pro or anti. The point isn't whether or not it's pro or anti, but on how much their claims hold up. So far, the overall claims by the anti side are not credible, with very little sources to back up on.

Overall, I don't rely solely on tourist's views, unless they have something to back what they see up. With, say, pictures or videos, which through the link I provided, the tourist did take loads of pictures, which is useful.

What I do rely on mostly is the information provided by North Korean experts, such as Bruce Cumings and Tim Beal. Both of which are able to show how much bullshit the overall bourgeois information on North Korea is. They also tend to back up a great deal of what pro-DPRK tourists claim to see or witness.

[PhoenixAsh]

What I do rely on mostly is the information provided by North Korean experts, such as Bruce Cumings and Tim Beal. Both of which are able to show how much bullshit the overall bourgeois information on North Korea is. They also tend to back up a great deal of what pro-DPRK tourists claim to see or witness.

Cumings often misrepresents sources and misinterprets them or plainly ignores opposing information inherrent in them.

[The Vegan Marxist]

Also, considering we live in a totally capitalist world, the DPRK has to be capitalist in order to trade with what little allies they have. Workers are still exploited and alienated from their labor.


Yeah, because the DPRK's small private sector is what defines the overall economic system of the DPRK, right? You're delusional if that's how you define whether or not a country is socialist.

[The Vegan Marxist]

Cumings often misrepresents sources and misinterprets them or plainly ignores opposing information inherrent in them.

:confused:

That doesn't make any sense. The opposing information comes from people who are not experts on the field of North Korea, whereas Cumings is. Of course there's going to be contradictions. That's the point! Though, with the opposing information coming in from people are clearly not experts, Cumings then holds more validity.

[PhoenixAsh]

:confused:

That doesn't make any sense. The opposing information comes from people who are not experts on the field of North Korea, whereas Cumings is. Of course there's going to be contradictions. That's the point! Though, with the opposing information coming in from people are clearly not experts, Cumings then holds more validity.

No contradicting information within the source itself. If you cite a source as basis for a position the information that does not support hat position within the source can not be ignored.

A very nice example is his use of the Fish tanks of PyonYang...can not remember the title exactly or what it is in English...a book about a concentration camp in NK. He overlooks some very important evidence given in the book while in the mean time using the book to support his basis that it isn't so bad in these camps. His position is not supported by the book which actually shows that its very, very bad....yet he uses it as evidence that things are perfectly acceptable.

[The Vegan Marxist]

No contradicting information within the source itself. If you cite a source as basis for a position the information that does not support hat position within the source can not be ignored.

A very nice example is his use of the Fish tanks of PyonYang...can not remember the title exactly or what it is in English...a book about a concentration camp in NK. He overlooks some very important evidence given in the book while in the mean time using the book to support his basis that it isn't so bad in these camps. His position is not supported by the book which actually shows that its very, very bad....yet he uses it as evidence that things are perfectly acceptable.

lol, you got that from Wikipedia. Either way, I haven't read the book that Cumings critiqued from. So I can't make a logical statement on it until I get a hold of a copy of it.

[PhoenixAsh]

lol, you got that from Wikipedia. Either way, I haven't read the book that Cumings critiqued from. So I can't make a logical statement on it until I get a hold of a copy of it.

:tt2:

Yeah I did...had you going there for a minute didn't I ;)

Thanx for the hint on Tim Beal thuogh. I have bookmarked his site for later read.


But I did read the book "Aquariums of PyongYang"... its informative.

[StalinFanboy]

Which government so far has been consists of "workers councils"? Can you show just one example? Wat

I have never said there has been a government of councils before (although these have existed in various forms - Paris Commune, Spanish Civil War, the early stages of the Russian Revolution, etc). But that really wasn't my point. I was comparing something proletarian in nature to something that isn't.


Well, just tell me which class is the beneficiary of the surplus wages of the workers? The "dictatorial, dynastic, authoritarian" party cadre class or the "bureaucratic bourgeoisie" class? Workers are exploited means the surplus must be going somewhere. THAT'S LOGIC TOO. Looks like the state is. Remember where I said the state plays the role of the ruling class? I mean, I have yet to see anything debunking the luxurious lifestyle of the ruler.

Besides, why does it matter what class is the beneficiary of capital? The point of communism isn't to put the working class in control of their own exploitation and alienation by putting them in control of the market, but to destroy the market entirely.



Capitalism works by sucking the "surplus value" from the workers and handing it over to bourgeoisie. Kindly answer my question in this light.
Or in this case, the state. Getting rid of the private sector doesn't count as getting rid of capitalism if the state takes over the function of the bourgeoisie.

[StalinFanboy]

Yeah, because the DPRK's small private sector is what defines the overall economic system of the DPRK, right? You're delusional if that's how you define whether or not a country is socialist.

Oh yeah, my bad, all that sick shit that Kim-Il whatever has are just gifts from the workers right?

Seriously bro, check out some critical theory that has been written within the last 10 years or so.

[pranabjyoti]

Wat

I have never said there has been a government of councils before (although these have existed in various forms - Paris Commune, Spanish Civil War, the early stages of the Russian Revolution, etc). But that really wasn't my point. I was comparing something proletarian in nature to something that isn't.
Looks like the state is. Remember where I said the state plays the role of the ruling class? I mean, I have yet to see anything debunking the luxurious lifestyle of the ruler.
Well, I think nobody is interested about your definition of "what is proletarian", but more on how to achieve it. Do you have any concrete idea about that? (I guess not).
Can you ever thought why your ideal examples have such a low longevity? Instead of subjective replies like "the evil authoritarians cheated movements" but rather subjective like whether the working class itself have some inherent weakness that it cannot hold and defend its own "councils" and repeatedly surrender before the "authoritarians".

Besides, why does it matter what class is the beneficiary of capital? The point of communism isn't to put the working class in control of their own exploitation and alienation by putting them in control of the market, but to destroy the market entirely.
Problem with people like you is that you think the "state" as something classless AND ARE JUST UNABLE TO UNDERSTAND THAT STATE IS THE REPRESENTATIVE OF THE RULING CLASS. The state of DPRK also some representative of some kind of ruling class. Just tell (and prove) which the state of DPRK represent?
I want concrete answer, no idealistic blabbering like "it isn't workers state" etc.
Do you think that the market system can be destroyed so easily and overnight?

Or in this case, the state. Getting rid of the private sector doesn't count as getting rid of capitalism if the state takes over the function of the bourgeoisie.
Getting rid of private sector is the first step to get rid of capitalism. I don't know any way to jump directly to the 2nd floor without going to the 1st floor first.

[Rooster]

Well, I think nobody is interested about your definition of "what is proletarian", but more on how to achieve it. Do you have any concrete idea about that? (I guess not).

Wut. "Hey everyone, let's go make some squinkels!" "What's a squinkel?" "Who cares, lets just go make them!"


Problem with people like you is that you think the "state" as something classless AND ARE JUST UNABLE TO UNDERSTAND THAT STATE IS THE REPRESENTATIVE OF THE RULING CLASS. The state of DPRK also some representative of some kind of ruling class. Just tell (and prove) which the state of DPRK represent?
I want concrete answer, no idealistic blabbering like "it isn't workers state" etc.

The fact that there is a state means that it's not communism. The state exists to oppress and enable exploitation, to allow for the existence of different classes.

[Obs]

The fact that there is a state means that it's not communism. The state exists to oppress and enable exploitation, to allow for the existence of different classes.
A state is an instrument of the dictatorship of a class - any class. The state has been used by all ruling classes throughout the history of the world, and I see no reason why the proletariat should not be able to use it as such.

[PhoenixAsh]

Problem with people like you is that you think the "state" as something classless AND ARE JUST UNABLE TO UNDERSTAND THAT STATE IS THE REPRESENTATIVE OF THE RULING CLASS. The state of DPRK also some representative of some kind of ruling class. Just tell (and prove) which the state of DPRK represent?

Yes the state is indeed a representative of the ruling class. In the case of DPRK that is the political elite, the army leadership and the personality cult.

That this is the case is clear form the luxury the elite lives in, the shongun policy and the widely established deification.




I want concrete answer, no idealistic blabbering like "it isn't workers state" etc.The problem with you is that you are unable to accept anything as correct if it doesn't agree with your narrow minded view of the world and blind defence of anything authoritarian that waves a red flag.


Do you think that the market system can be destroyed so easily and overnight?they had 50 years. Are we talking about revolution or evolution here?



Getting rid of private sector is the first step to get rid of capitalism. I don't know any way to jump directly to the 2nd floor without going to the 1st floor first.whooptie doo....it took them 50 years to get to the first floor. :rolleyes:

[PhoenixAsh]

A state is an instrument of the dictatorship of a class - any class. The state has been used by all ruling classes throughout the history of the world, and I see no reason why the proletariat should not be able to use it as such.

They could but then we would get into an anarchy vs communism debate as to why that is or isn't wrong. Not really the place in this thread for that, very interesting though it is, discussion.

The ruling class of DPRK however, as case in point, is not the proletariat. i refer to above post.

[Rooster]

A state is an instrument of the dictatorship of a class - any class. The state has been used by all ruling classes throughout the history of the world, and I see no reason why the proletariat should not be able to use it as such.

A state is an expression of class antagonisms. A proletariat state would only exist if there still existed antagonisms within the society ie, for the purpose to rid the society of the bourgeois or to facilitate exploitation of the workers. Either there is still a bourgeois resistance in North Korea or there is another class suppressing the proletariat. I think the nature of the state in North Korea (the dynastic succession, military first, cult of personality) clearly shows that it is not a state controlled by the proletariat for the purposes of suppressing a bourgeois class.

[StalinFanboy]

Well, I think nobody is interested about your definition of "what is proletarian", but more on how to achieve it. Do you have any concrete idea about that? (I guess not).
Can you ever thought why your ideal examples have such a low longevity? Instead of subjective replies like "the evil authoritarians cheated movements" but rather subjective like whether the working class itself have some inherent weakness that it cannot hold and defend its own "councils" and repeatedly surrender before the "authoritarians."
It's never been a matter of working class people simply "surrendering" to "authoritarians," but the way people like you have used violence to get rid of opposition. Even if that opposition is working class people or genuine forms of proletarian organization.

I'm not going to deny that there has been failures in the past. But I would not say you people have experienced any victories either, unless your goal has always been to manage capitalism


Problem with people like you is that you think the "state" as something classless AND ARE JUST UNABLE TO UNDERSTAND THAT STATE IS THE REPRESENTATIVE OF THE RULING CLASS. The state of DPRK also some representative of some kind of ruling class. Just tell (and prove) which the state of DPRK represent?
I want concrete answer, no idealistic blabbering like "it isn't workers state" etc.
Do you think that the market system can be destroyed so easily and overnight?
The state in the DPRK certainly doesn't represent the workers. Do they have any control over the means of production, or does the state? Do they have any real say in the way the state is run? Do state functionaries answer to the workers? It seems like it would be hard for a state to represent the working class if it's not even remotely accountable to them.

Also representation brings up a whole other issue. The workers are hardly liberating themselves if they are continuing to go to work while some group of dickheads takes over the state.


Getting rid of private sector is the first step to get rid of capitalism. I don't know any way to jump directly to the 2nd floor without going to the 1st floor first.
Like I already said, getting rid of the bourgeoisie is hella tight, but not if it means having the state fulfill their role. You can't just transfer ownership of the means of production from the bourgeoisie to the state and be like "Oh damn, capitalism is gone." Stop bastardizing communist theory.

[pranabjyoti]

Wut. "Hey everyone, let's go make some squinkels!" "What's a squinkel?" "Who cares, lets just go make them!"
So far, most have a clear idea about what can be a workers state, not only the anarchos like you. But, the question is how to get it. Everybody knows the position of the moon. But, building the rocket is the crucial factor.

The fact that there is a state means that it's not communism. The state exists to oppress and enable exploitation, to allow for the existence of different classes.
Obs answered this question correctly.

[pranabjyoti]

It's never been a matter of working class people simply "surrendering" to "authoritarians," but the way people like you have used violence to get rid of opposition. Even if that opposition is working class people or genuine forms of proletarian organization.
Our enemies used violence to uproot us. Why don't we use it against them? Do you want to say that just belonging to "working class" means he/she is an angel delivered to Earth? Can not he/she become an enemy of his/her own class?
Do you want to propose a non-violent:blink: way of revolution? Some kind of Gandhian-Marxism?

I'm not going to deny that there has been failures in the past. But I would not say you people have experienced any victories either, unless your goal has always been to manage capitalism.
Well, if you are really able to see the movement of history, then you can understand that a war is going on and so far, capitalism-imperialism retreated overall from 1917 onwards.

The state in the DPRK certainly doesn't represent the workers. Do they have any control over the means of production, or does the state? Do they have any real say in the way the state is run? Do state functionaries answer to the workers? It seems like it would be hard for a state to represent the working class if it's not even remotely accountable to them.
Well, you can only have an answer to that by visiting DPRK and talking with people i.e. workers there. But, you have to go there with an open mind, not shitloaded with imperialist propaganda. I myself don't have very clear idea about DPRK, but at least I can say that working class is in better than condition there (despite the embargo) than most of the countries of the world i.e. third world.

Also representation brings up a whole other issue. The workers are hardly liberating themselves if they are continuing to go to work while some group of dickheads takes over the state.
So, as per this theory, we need some good development in science and technology, so that workers have to work less hard and have more time to think and making groups to strengthen their control over the state. In my opinion, the embargo is the main barrier in this regard. What can you do to ease the burden?

Like I already said, getting rid of the bourgeoisie is hella tight, but not if it means having the state fulfill their role. You can't just transfer ownership of the means of production from the bourgeoisie to the state and be like "Oh damn, capitalism is gone." Stop bastardizing communist theory.
State itself isn't a class to take control of production. It's a tool in the hand of the ruling class. Who are the ruling class in DPRK?

[pranabjyoti]

Yes the state is indeed a representative of the ruling class. In the case of DPRK that is the political elite, the army leadership and the personality cult.
Well, the above mentioned class doesn't belong to any category that I know so far. Can you explain how this NEW CLASS evolved in DPRK? If DPRK is a bourgeoisie state like others and bourgeoisie economic relation exists there, then the classes should be that existing in other capitalist countries. How that can be different in DPRK?

That this is the case is clear form the luxury the elite lives in, the shongun policy and the widely established deification.
I have no idea in this regard. Can you show some source of information in this regard (other than Hollywood movies and imperialist propaganda).

The problem with you is that you are unable to accept anything as correct if it doesn't agree with your narrow minded view of the world and blind defence of anything authoritarian that waves a red flag.
So far, I haven't foul cried like "this isn't correct" like that, but rather just ask questions. If that is a sign of non-acceptance, then how can you call yourself an anti-authoratarian?

they had 50 years. Are we talking about revolution or evolution here?

whooptie doo....it took them 50 years to get to the first floor. :rolleyes:
If DPRK belongs to a different planet and it's the only state there, then certainly that's sufficient. But, in a world, surrounded with enemies that took much more than 50 years. Moreover, some scientific and technological development is necessary too. The embargo is the biggest barrier in this regard.

[Rusty Shackleford]

http://www.google.com/hostednews/afp/article/ALeqM5jtk-pZZ4EpXODKZqBvSqAZCmhSgQ?docId=CNG.d9d5728b930b9c8 d40b7874c476a3e05.171


On December 25, a North Korean crossed the border by boat and landed on Baengnyeong, another frontline island. He was allowed last month to return to the North after expressing a wish to do so.

SEOUL — Thirty-one North Koreans crossed the tense Yellow Sea border by boat and arrived in South Korea but they have not so far expressed any wish to defect, the defence ministry in Seoul said Monday.
A spokesman, confirming a report in Dong-A Ilbo newspaper, said the South's navy on Saturday detained the five-ton boat about 1.6 miles (2.5 km) south of the disputed border.
Officials were interrogating the group, the spokesman told AFP. "None of them has yet expressed an intention to defect."
The incident off the frontline island of Yeonpyeong comes at a sensitive time as the two Koreas prepare for their first talks since the North's deadly shelling of the island in November.
The 11 men and 20 women arrived off the island in thick fog and were towed to the western port city of Incheon, Yonhap news agency quoted a military official as saying.
The official described them as members of a work group and not family members. There were no children on board.
"Given the circumstances so far, they might have been drifting after setting the wrong coordinates or losing power on their boat," another official was quoted as saying.
The contested Yellow Sea border has been a persistent flashpoint. The North's shelling of Yeonpyeong, which killed two marines and two civilians, briefly sparked fears of war.
The two sides will hold preliminary military talks Tuesday to try to ease months of tensions.
On December 25, a North Korean crossed the border by boat and landed on Baengnyeong, another frontline island. He was allowed last month to return to the North after expressing a wish to do so.
More than 20,000 North Koreans have arrived in South Korea since the end of the 1950-53 war, mostly via China.

[Sinister Cultural Marxist]

pranabjyoti-I think you are correct to an extent to argue that our view of NK is far too biased by an almost entirely one-sided media. But the best propaganda, even bourgeoise propaganda, is good not because it makes facts up but because it does tell a certain truth just from a very specific point of view or angle. It is too easy to lie in propaganda, but also too easy to be proven wrong.

It is often the same with propaganda regarding North Korea. Yes, it may be overly biased against the regime. And maybe they do cherry pick only the worst facts. But those bad things do often happen.

[The Vegan Marxist]

http://www.google.com/hostednews/afp/article/ALeqM5jtk-pZZ4EpXODKZqBvSqAZCmhSgQ?docId=CNG.d9d5728b930b9c8 d40b7874c476a3e05.171



SEOUL — Thirty-one North Koreans crossed the tense Yellow Sea border by boat and arrived in South Korea but they have not so far expressed any wish to defect, the defence ministry in Seoul said Monday.
A spokesman, confirming a report in Dong-A Ilbo newspaper, said the South's navy on Saturday detained the five-ton boat about 1.6 miles (2.5 km) south of the disputed border.
Officials were interrogating the group, the spokesman told AFP. "None of them has yet expressed an intention to defect."
The incident off the frontline island of Yeonpyeong comes at a sensitive time as the two Koreas prepare for their first talks since the North's deadly shelling of the island in November.
The 11 men and 20 women arrived off the island in thick fog and were towed to the western port city of Incheon, Yonhap news agency quoted a military official as saying.
The official described them as members of a work group and not family members. There were no children on board.
"Given the circumstances so far, they might have been drifting after setting the wrong coordinates or losing power on their boat," another official was quoted as saying.
The contested Yellow Sea border has been a persistent flashpoint. The North's shelling of Yeonpyeong, which killed two marines and two civilians, briefly sparked fears of war.
The two sides will hold preliminary military talks Tuesday to try to ease months of tensions.
On December 25, a North Korean crossed the border by boat and landed on Baengnyeong, another frontline island. He was allowed last month to return to the North after expressing a wish to do so.
More than 20,000 North Koreans have arrived in South Korea since the end of the 1950-53 war, mostly via China.


May I ask what exactly you're trying to get at with this? That the article is self-contradictory, or what?

[pranabjyoti]

pranabjyoti-I think you are correct to an extent to argue that our view of NK is far too biased by an almost entirely one-sided media. But the best propaganda, even bourgeoise propaganda, is good not because it makes facts up but because it does tell a certain truth just from a very specific point of view or angle. It is too easy to lie in propaganda, but also too easy to be proven wrong.

It is often the same with propaganda regarding North Korea. Yes, it may be overly biased against the regime. And maybe they do cherry pick only the worst facts. But those bad things do often happen.
How much often and who is responsible for that? The regime or the imperialist embargo? I want a clear answer.

[Obs]

May I ask what exactly you're trying to get at with this? That the article is self-contradictory, or what?
I'm fairly sure he's pointing out examples of Koreans moving from the North to the South wanting to go back.

[StalinFanboy]

Our enemies used violence to uproot us. Why don't we use it against them? Do you want to say that just belonging to "working class" means he/she is an angel delivered to Earth? Can not he/she become an enemy of his/her own class?
Do you want to propose a non-violent:blink: way of revolution? Some kind of Gandhian-Marxism? Genuine forms of proletarian organization are not the enemy...


Well, if you are really able to see the movement of history, then you can understand that a war is going on and so far, capitalism-imperialism retreated overall from 1917 onwards. hahahahahahahahahahahahah what?! Surely you don't believe that?

How can you say that capitalism has retreated since 1917 when there is not a single non-capitalist country in existence at the moment? Jesus dude, you are delusional.


Well, you can only have an answer to that by visiting DPRK and talking with people i.e. workers there. But, you have to go there with an open mind, not shitloaded with imperialist propaganda. I myself don't have very clear idea about DPRK, but at least I can say that working class is in better than condition there (despite the embargo) than most of the countries of the world i.e. third world. So is your goal to elevate the third world to the same level as the first? But sick for dodging the question.


So, as per this theory, we need some good development in science and technology, so that workers have to work less hard and have more time to think and making groups to strengthen their control over the state. In my opinion, the embargo is the main barrier in this regard. What can you do to ease the burden? Huh? what, no dude.


State itself isn't a class to take control of production. It's a tool in the hand of the ruling class. Who are the ruling class in DPRK?
I dunno dude. Who is living in a Palace and who is living in shit and wasting their lives working?

[PhoenixAsh]

Well, the above mentioned class doesn't belong to any category that I know so far. Can you explain how this NEW CLASS evolved in DPRK? If DPRK is a bourgeoisie state like others and bourgeoisie economic relation exists there, then the classes should be that existing in other capitalist countries. How that can be different in DPRK?

Yes it does...think about it.

Personally I think the DPRK is a watered down form of fascism mixed with some socialist ideology...

It rejects individualism, it has a party monopoly, strong leader with special charismatic powers, militarised, egalized, strongly nationalistic, authoritarian, the sole authority is the state, authority from above, social indoctrination...and economically corporated in collectivism.

Where it differs from the regular definition of fascism its not based on the middle class but on the working class. And neither are the corporated institutions operating apart from the government.

In Holland we have ten main points to determine fascism. The DPRK has 9 of these inherrent in its political spectrum.

Musolini once said: everything in the state, nothing against the state, nothing without the state.





I have no idea in this regard. Can you show some source of information in this regard (other than Hollywood movies and imperialist propaganda).


Pyongyang is build for the political elite and privileged....for example. You can google this to get an array of sources.

The songan is the "military first" policy. And is widely described even in DPRK sources.

The luxury position of the elite is also well documented.




So far, I haven't foul cried like "this isn't correct" like that, but rather just ask questions. If that is a sign of non-acceptance, then how can you call yourself an anti-authoratarian?

Fine...we will settle on a passive-agressive attitude.



DPRK belongs to a different planet and it's the only state there, then certainly that's sufficient. But, in a world, surrounded with enemies that took much more than 50 years. Moreover, some scientific and technological development is necessary too. The embargo is the biggest barrier in this regard.

I agree the embargo does not help. I think similar situations have always shown that embargo's are in effective and target civlians more than a regime

[What Would Durruti Do?]

I'm fairly sure he's pointing out examples of Koreans moving from the North to the South wanting to go back.

He picked a bad article to use then.


More than 20,000 North Koreans have arrived in South Korea since the end of the 1950-53 war, mostly via China.

[The Vegan Marxist]

He picked a bad article to use then.

Many left Cuba as well. We essentially only get one side of the story of why they leave anyways. As for the 31 today, they all wish not to stay in SKorea.

[General Lud]

Could North Koreans returning from the south be something completely unrelated to economic models?

Could social organization or societal narratives and upbringings have anything to do with it?

Reading this board, and gauging my reactions, I've found I'm far more anthropologic than economic in my world views…so be it.

It seems to me; to a man with a hammer (and sickle) everything looks like a nail...

Your economic analyses holds water...but I have yet to see anyone who seems to know the first thing about korea, or koreans.:)

[PhoenixAsh]

I think that was seriously the most useful post in this thread.

[Rusty Shackleford]

dont thousands of americans move out of the US to other countries for political reasons?

20,000 people over a period of nearly 6 decades isnt that much.

[Bright Banana Beard]

Many socialists have to move out during the first and second Red Scare in USA.

[Vladimir Innit Lenin]

Apparently it's quite difficult to leave a country when the seas are blocked by electric fences.:rolleyes:

Let us get this straight. NK is not a workers' state. Not because it's some hellhole, because as far as I can tell, in economic terms it is not and to that extent, bourgeois propaganda is what it is - just bourgeois propaganda.

However, as i've iterated again and again and again - without political and economic democracy, there is no Socialism. Without the absolute control of the working class (not the absolute control of a group on behalf of the working class), there is no Socialism.

The North Korean rulers can follow their Juche if they want, but don't expect many Socialists to follow what is essentially a centralised, militaristic, nationalistic ideology. And don't expect support for that ridiculous glorification of the leaders, simply because there is slightly more welfare and redistribution in NK than in many other third world nations.

[Obs]

However, as i've iterated again and again and again - without political and economic democracy, there is no Socialism.
You seem persist in willfully ignoring that the DPRK possesses both these things. This is inadvisable.

[PhoenixAsh]

You seem persist in willfully ignoring that the DPRK possesses both these things. This is inadvisable.

Getting to vote is not democracy in a socialist sense...neither is have a deified leader...especially one which you can not critisize.

[PhoenixAsh]

Can anybody tell me when the last two party congresses were held in DPRK?

[Rakhmetov]

Beautiful, Beautiful, Beautiful

I love those pictures. Thank you. :)

[Vladimir Innit Lenin]

You seem persist in willfully ignoring that the DPRK possesses both these things. This is inadvisable.

Prove it, because all I see is a weary leader, the son of the previous leader, kept in his position by a powerful military, lining up his son for an un-democratic, nepotist succession. Or does it just so happen that one line of patriarchs happen to be the best 'rulers' (Socialism with rulers, who'd have thought?) of the country?

The DPRK doesn't even aspire to communism in the Marxian sense any more. I don't see why any single sane Socialist would defend it as Socialist. Oppose imperialist invasion if you wish, I see a certain logic there, but it is clearly not a Socialist nation. It is a dictatorship that, as far as I can tell, provides a slightly more adequate provision of living and welfare for its citizens (when you ignore the famines and wasteful spending on the military, weapons and great monuments in Pyongyang) than other third world nations. It's not Socialist and, under the current monarchy, never will be anything but the enemy of working people everywhere.