Kim Jong-il opposed succession

[scarletghoul]

Interesting. Among other things this tells us the KJI does not have absolute power like many people believe. The succession was certainly wrong and as KJN points out inconsistent with socialism. But yeah, its clear that North Korean politics is not a simplistic as it appears.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-pacific-12304763
North Korea's Kim Jong-il 'opposed succession'

http://news.bbcimg.co.uk/media/images/50991000/jpg/_50991535_011115609-1.jpg North Korea's ailing leader Kim Jong-il appears to be preparing his youngest son as his successor


North Korean leader Kim Jong-il never wanted a dynastic succession but had no other option to stabilise the troubled regime, his eldest son has said.


Kim Jong-nam, who has lived abroad for years, made his comments in a rare interview with a Japanese newspaper.


Kim Jong-il is apparently preparing his youngest son as his successor.
Succession fears have fuelled tensions on the Korean peninsula. The current stand-off follows the North's shelling of a South Korean island in November.


On Friday, North Korea called for parliamentary talks on how "to settle the grave situation prevailing between the North and the South."


This request was rejected by Seoul as it "lacked sincerity", the unification ministry said.


However, the two Koreas have agreed to bilateral military talks on the fatal attack on Yeongpeong island and the sinking in March of a South Korean warship, widely blamed on a North Korean torpedo attack - although the North strongly denies any role.


Seoul has also proposed separate talks on Pyongyang's renewed pledges on its nuclear disarmament.

'Great works'

Kim Jong-il's eldest son was interviewed in mid-January by the Tokyo Shimbun.


Hereditary succession "does not fit with socialism, and my father was against it as well," he was quoted as saying in the article, which was published on Friday.


"My understanding is that (succession) was to stabilise the internal system. An unstable North Korea leads to instability in the region."


He said he wanted his youngest half-brother to "take over the great works my father has done. I want him to enrich people's lives," he said.


He said: "North Korea should pay attention to reform and openness. If it continues like this, it cannot become an economic power.


He added that what the North desired most was the "normalisation of ties with the US" and peace on the peninsula.


Kim Jong-nam, who is mainly based in Macau, is believed to have missed out on being chosen as the next leader because of his flamboyant lifestyle. He was also caught trying to enter Japan in 2001 on a false passport.


The ailing North Korean leader - who took over the country from his father after his death in 1994 - is seen as setting up the transfer of power to his youngest son Kim Jong-un.


Last year, the 27-year-old was made a four-star general and given senior posts in the ruling Workers' Party. Since then, he has been frequently pictured alongside his father.

[The Vegan Marxist]

I've been in contact with people who lived in the DPRK for years, and they've always told me this exact same thing as well. For those who just doesn't understand the role of Kim Jong-Un, his military ranking is really nothing special. It was done in the hopes of him taking responsibility and progress himself forward from there. You know, like when pilot fathers give their sons a pilot's badge, or something along those lines. Except this is more elaborate than that, but it's the same either way.

So, despite what this article says, Kim Jong-Un will not be the successor. He's way too young, and there's plenty other old revolutionary officials left that are much more capable than Un. I've even noticed some bourgeois articles finding themselves unable to accept the foolish idea that Un will be the successor, and instead took a more logical approach by stating that the next successor will more than likely be Chang Sung-taek.

[scarletghoul]

His position right now is more like KJI's in the 70s, he's been given a boost up and is being 'groomed for succession', but if the leader dropped dead tomorrow someone else would almost certainly take over. We should still criticise this family promotion though.

[Geiseric]

What ever happened to people voting for who their leader is? Is the north korean people capable of making an intelligent decision or are they all brainwashed like most media outlets say? The only thing i'd support is an election, without the whole ''you don't vote for me you die'' thing behind it that most iron fisted rulers have, such as Ben Ali.

[The Vegan Marxist]

What ever happened to people voting for who their leader is? Is the north korean people capable of making an intelligent decision or are they all brainwashed like most media outlets say? The only thing i'd support is an election, without the whole ''you don't vote for me you die'' thing behind it that most iron fisted rulers have, such as Ben Ali.

There is actually elections held by the WPK (Workers Party of Korea). There's a difference between the WPK-held elections and the succession. And again, I'm sure Kim Jong-Il would agree with your statement, as he stated as well. The problem is the present conditions they're facing and the risks present on keeping Western holdings out of the DPRK. Reformism already destroyed one of their major allies (Soviet Union), thus placed them in a very difficult position during the '90s, ranging from economic downturn, famine, and imperialist acts of aggression. Luckily, they all got through it together, successfully.

[Geiseric]

I don't think he feels bad since he used all of north koreas money on shit that only he and the party benefit from, and totally useless things like a gigantic 300 thousand man show that happens every few weeks for a few visitors. People are starving in his country under his rule, so I don't think he feels bad. They're using the western infiltration excuse to justify them being despots over their country and it's ridiculous. They're more then tyrants, they control through propagation the minds of their citizens.

[The Vegan Marxist]

I don't think he feels bad since he used all of north koreas money on shit that only he and the party benefit from

:confused:

Yeah, because free healthcare, free housing, no unemployment, and free energy is REALLY tyrannical of them. :rolleyes:

[The Vegan Marxist]

People are starving in his country under his rule, so I don't think he feels bad.

People are not starving in the DPRK. Even the CIA World Factbook admits this:


“large-scale international food aid deliveries have allowed the people of North Korea to escape widespread starvation since famine threatened in 1995"

https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/geos/kn.html

It then states:


“the population continues to suffer from prolonged malnutrition and poor living conditions.”

Which can be accounted for due to the massive increase of sanctions against the DPRK, which withholds:

Limits on the export of goods and services.
Prohibition of most foreign aid and agricultural sales.
A ban on Export-Import Bank funding.
Denial of favourable trade terms.
Prohibition of imports from North Korea.
Blocking of any loan or funding through international financial institutions.
Limits on export licensing of food and medicine for export to North Korea.
A ban on government financing of food and medicine exports to North Korea.
Prohibition on import and export transactions related to transportation.
A ban on dual-use exports (i.e., civilian goods that could be adapted to military purposes.)
Prohibition on certain commercial banking transactions.


http://www.au.af.mil/au/awc/awcgate/crs/rl31696.pdf


They're using the western infiltration excuse to justify them being despots over their country and it's ridiculous.

Whether you like it or not, the DPRK aren't the only ones stating this either:


“the leaders and people have suffered from economic sanctions and diplomatic exclusion for more than fifty years.”

-Jimmy Carter (former US President)

[LibertarianSocialist1]

I don't think he feels bad since he used all of north koreas money on shit that only he and the party benefit from, and totally useless things like a gigantic 300 thousand man show that happens every few weeks for a few visitors. People are starving in his country under his rule, so I don't think he feels bad.
What is the source for this? Fox News?

[Chimurenga.]

What is the source for this? Fox News?

You'd be surprised how many "Communists" regurgitate the same shit. This board is full of 'em.

[gorillafuck]

:confused:

Yeah, because free healthcare, free housing, no unemployment, and free energy is REALLY tyrannical of them. :rolleyes:
To be fair, none of that is un-tyrannical....

[The Vegan Marxist]

To be fair, none of that is un-tyrannical....

In a way, you're right that they don't define the level of authority, but it does define the level of morality.

[DaringMehring]

What is the source for this? Fox News?

It's called "Mass Games."

-- Today, mass games are regularly performed only in North Korea (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_Korea), where they take place to celebrate national holidays such as the birthdays of rulers Kim Il-sung (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kim_Il-sung) and Kim Jong-il (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kim_Jong-il). In recent years, they have been the main attraction of the Arirang Festival (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arirang_Festival) in Pyongyang (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pyongyang). -- Wiki

On a North Korean touring website you can find: "DPRK’s main attraction and quite simply the most amazing thing you will ever see! For more details click here to see what all the fuss is about. Mass Games are truly one of those events that is once seen; never forgotten."

Full description from the site: http://www.koryogroup.com/travel_massGames.php

Do your research.


[edit: sorry, didn't realize this guy was just a troll acct; but it's useful info nonetheless I suppose]

[DaringMehring]

You'd be surprised how many "Communists" regurgitate the same shit. This board is full of 'em.

Yeah the existence of "Mass Games" is "regurgitated shit"... yeah you're so superior to those fake "communists"... oh wait... embarrassing for you.

[The Vegan Marxist]

Yeah the existence of "Mass Games" is "regurgitated shit"... yeah you're so superior to those fake "communists"... oh wait... embarrassing for you.

You're a moron.

No one here denies the existence of the "Mass Games". What we considered Fox News propaganda was this (bold):


north koreas money on shit that only he and the party benefit from, and totally useless things like a gigantic 300 thousand man show that happens every few weeks for a few visitors. People are starving in his country under his rule, so I don't think he feels bad.

There's no evidence to this whatsoever. And as I clarified easily, the country isn't starving to death. Also, I seriously doubt it takes a lot of money to do those continuous parades (if any money is needed at all).

[Reznov]

You'd be surprised how many "Communists" regurgitate the same shit. This board is full of 'em.

Well said good sir, or comrade as those evil bastard communists would say.
:thumbup::laugh:

[Crimson Commissar]

I think the most worrying thing here is how North Korea is talking about "normal relations with the US" and "reunification". We all know that the only renuification that will happen in Korea will be under the ultra-capitalist government of South Korea. If the DPRK is so revolutionary, why do they seem so eager to join with the US and South Korea? Peace between communism and capitalism is impossible. If the North Korean communists want to be seen as real socialists, they should fully oppose reunification unless it is under socialist rule.

[The Vegan Marxist]

I think the most worrying thing here is how North Korea is talking about "normal relations with the US" and "reunification". We all know that the only renuification that will happen in Korea will be under the ultra-capitalist government of South Korea. If the DPRK is so revolutionary, why do they seem so eager to join with the US and South Korea? Peace between communism and capitalism is impossible. If the North Korean communists want to be seen as real socialists, they should fully oppose reunification unless it is under socialist rule.

To me, that's very anti-communist of you to say. There needs to be some kind of peaceful cooperation between the North and South, and the US sanctions need to end, in order to have the ability to take care of their people to the best of their ability. And the sanctions aren't going to go away until some kind of peaceful relation between the DPRK and the US is set. This doesn't mean they have to be allies.

Cooperation is far from being anti-Marxist:

http://www.marxists.org/archive/lenin/works/1920/lwc/ch08.htm

http://www.marxists.org/subject/china/documents/polemic/peaceful.htm

[Nolan]

That's nice.

[DaringMehring]

You're a moron.

No one here denies the existence of the "Mass Games". What we considered Fox News propaganda was this (bold):



There's no evidence to this whatsoever. And as I clarified easily, the country isn't starving to death. Also, I seriously doubt it takes a lot of money to do those continuous parades (if any money is needed at all).

Ok, so you're qualifying --- even though that was not a distinction drawn in the original statement. And... what? Unfortunately, any evidence to the contrary on these points, particularly Kim's wastefulness, you would deny as propaganda (like the rumors of his expensive habits, defector reports of his 17 palaces, the heavy military spending). So, the regime's suppression of information makes space for you to disbelieve everything. Good job Kim.

So lets deal with what you admit, which is that these "Mass Games" spectacles are regular. You claim, they can't cost much money. How about, the lost labor power of over 100,000 people? Is this what an underdeveloped country should be directing its economy toward? Does this make any sense?

The fact is Kim is the dictator of a military-bureaucratic regime.

My question is why would you defend Kim --- A man known as "Supreme Leader," "Dear Leader", "our Father", "the General" and "Generalissimo" A man who according to Wiki "North Korean state media reports that Kim routinely shoots three or four holes-in-one (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hole_in_one) per round.[/URL] His official biography also claims Kim has composed six operas and enjoys staging elaborate [URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Musical_theater"]musicals (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kim_Jong-il#cite_note-114)." (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kim_Jong-il#cite_note-115)

So do you actually believe the cult of personality of Kim? Or, is NK state media lying (and what does that say about them?)

Only two possible reasons to support the censoring, lying, cult of personality, military regime of NK:

1- You support anybody who waves a red flag. Pathetic as this is, I've known people like this. However, since NK now doesn't even claim to follow socialism, but rather "Juche," I'm guessing this isn't the case.

2- You support anybody who the US bourgeois government hates. This must be it, some kind of "anti-imperialism means you have to support our Father, Generalissimo Kim." Well that's great bro, but that sure doesn't make you a socialist.

You can rail about how other people are "anti-communist" all you want, but it's just pathetic when you're supporting a lying, cult of personality, military regime that neither proclaims nor practices Marxism or Communism.

[The Vegan Marxist]

Ok, so you're qualifying --- even though that was not a distinction drawn in the original statement. And... what? Unfortunately, any evidence to the contrary on these points, particularly Kim's wastefulness, you would deny as propaganda (like the rumors of his expensive habits, defector reports of his 17 palaces, the heavy military spending). So, the regime's suppression of information makes space for you to disbelieve everything. Good job Kim.

Here's where we differ. You support your position on rumors alone. Whereas, when we make statements on the DPRK, we actually provide adequate sources to back our claims up. Like the fact that the DPRK, which consists of a population of 23 million, only spends around $2 billion on their Defense budget. In which, if we just compared this to SKorea, which granted has a population double of the north's, we notice that they spend around $20.7 billion. Which is 10x more than the DPRK! Compare the DPRK's defense budget with that of the US, we then have a defense budget that's over 200x more than the DPRK's.

http://sites.google.com/site/nzdprksociety/commentary/the-dprk-is-not-a-strong-military-power-by-hazel-smith--professor-of-international-relations--warick-university

So so much for "heavy military spending". Like it or not, but a great portion of their money goes into agriculture, industry, providing for free housing and healthcare for their people. Which, again, with a population of 23 million, will mark itself a lot more expensive in doing so than the price they put in their military.


So lets deal with what you admit, which is that these "Mass Games" spectacles are regular. You claim, they can't cost much money. How about, the lost labor power of over 100,000 people? Is this what an underdeveloped country should be directing its economy toward? Does this make any sense?

Lost labor power of 100,000 people? Where the fuck are you getting these assumptions from? Do you even have any sources to back your bullshit up?


The fact is Kim is the dictator of a military-bureaucratic regime.

Who doesn't spend much on the military, provides healthcare, shelter, food, and energy to their people. Yeah, that's one bad muthafucker, I'm telling yah!


My question is why would you defend Kim --- A man known as "Supreme Leader," "Dear Leader", "our Father", "the General" and "Generalissimo" A man who according to Wiki "North Korean state media reports that Kim routinely shoots three or four holes-in-one (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hole_in_one) per round.[/URL] His official biography also claims Kim has composed six operas and enjoys staging elaborate [URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Musical_theater"]musicals (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kim_Jong-il#cite_note-114)." (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kim_Jong-il#cite_note-115)

So do you actually believe the cult of personality of Kim? Or, is NK state media lying (and what does that say about them?)

Oh, there's no doubt that there's a cult of personality present in the DPRK. But, more or less, this was present in every socialist country. Cuba had Castro and Che, China had Mao, Soviet Union was Marx, Lenin, and Stalin, Albania had Hoxha, Vietnam had Ho Chi Minh, and so we go on and on.

Fact of the matter is that, despite whether you agree with cult of personality or not, it doesn't define whether a country is Socialist or not. If that's how you define socialism, then you're clearly not doing so under a Marxist stance.


You can rail about how other people are "anti-communist" all you want, but it's just pathetic when you're supporting a lying, cult of personality, military regime that neither proclaims nor practices Marxism or Communism.

Only thing I find pathetic here is your complete gullibility of anything you hear about the DPRK. You're the type of "revolutionary leftists" who would've cheered the overthrowing of Afghanistan's PDPA, Yugoslavia's Milosevic, and now here, if the DPRK is overthrown. You're not a Marxist. Period.

[DaringMehring]

Here's where we differ. You support your position on rumors alone. Whereas, when we make statements on the DPRK, we actually provide adequate sources to back our claims up. Like the fact that the DPRK, which consists of a population of 23 million, only spends around $2 billion on their Defense budget. In which, if we just compared this to SKorea, which granted has a population double of the north's, we notice that they spend around $20.7 billion. Which is 10x more than the DPRK! Compare the DPRK's defense budget with that of the US, we then have a defense budget that's over 200x more than the DPRK's.

http://sites.google.com/site/nzdprksociety/commentary/the-dprk-is-not-a-strong-military-power-by-hazel-smith--professor-of-international-relations--warick-university

So so much for "heavy military spending". Like it or not, but a great portion of their money goes into agriculture, industry, providing for free housing and healthcare for their people. Which, again, with a population of 23 million, will mark itself a lot more expensive in doing so than the price they put in their military.


Ok. Unfortunately you can't even understand your own source. It says that NK is not strong militarily bc it doesn't spend that much money on its military. Yeah, bc NK is poor.

It says nothing about the percent of GDP spend on the military... so

SK spends an incredible 20.7 bill on its military according to that, BUT its GDP is 986,300 million USD. NK spends 2 bill, from a GDP of 28,000 million USD.

You know what that means? As a percentage of GDP NK spends about 3 and a half times more of its GDP on military than does SK --- and SK is a big spender! NK spends 5.5 times as much as a percentage of GDP than Russia.



Lost labor power of 100,000 people? Where the fuck are you getting these assumptions from? Do you even have any sources to back your bullshit up?


From the NK propaganda tour site that claims that >100,000 ppl participate in the mass games, which I already linked to in an earlier post, genius.

"Mass Games can basically be described as a synchronized socialist-realist spectacular, featuring over 100,000 participants..."

What else could they be doing besides gymnastics glorifying Kim's regime... gee...



Who doesn't spend much on the military, provides healthcare, shelter, food, and energy to their people. Yeah, that's one bad muthafucker, I'm telling yah!


You're wrong about the military, as for the other stuff, look, you assumed that I believe every last thing about the horrors of NK that the capitalist media portrays. You might be surprised that I do not. I believe that things are not that great (life expectancy of 63.8 is not very good, malnutrition is undeniable) but that what socialized relations do exist help fight against that.

I generally subscribe to the line of deformed workers state, which means, I support all the socialized aspects of NK.

However, these socialized aspects are in contradiction with the deformed bureaucratic-military regime you support. In the end, one or the other is going to go, just like the USSR and so many of the other degenerated/deformed workers' states.



Oh, there's no doubt that there's a cult of personality present in the DPRK. But, more or less, this was present in every socialist country. Cuba had Castro and Che, China had Mao, Soviet Union was Marx, Lenin, and Stalin, Albania had Hoxha, Vietnam had Ho Chi Minh, and so we go on and on.


So cult of personality will always occur in socialist countries?

Or are you just making excuses?

Maybe the fact that these cults existed in these countries, is a good indicator of their socialist failings. Or doesn't it say in the Internationale, that workers must save themselves, "no God, Caesar, or Tribune."




Only thing I find pathetic here is your complete gullibility of anything you hear about the DPRK. You're the type of "revolutionary leftists" who would've cheered the overthrowing of Afghanistan's PDPA, Yugoslavia's Milosevic, and now here, if the DPRK is overthrown. You're not a Marxist. Period.

This is just Stalinist stupidity. I support the NK workers & peasants in overthrowing Kim's regime. I support the socialized property relations being matched with a true proletarian regime, not the destruction of the socialized relations by a dictatorship. One or the other will happen. If you don't perceive this, you don't know much of Marx's theory or of dialectics.

As for whose a Marxist, you support a regime that would embarrass and anger Marx. You sound like a confused teenager caught up with a Stalinist organization. I'm sorry for you.

[Geiseric]

what above poster said.

[Geiseric]

There was a video of the mass games on youtube, look up vice guide to north korea. It's an independent news thing I stumbled on, and you can skip most if you'd like although I liked it, and go to a later part. There's footage of it, it's massive.

[Chimurenga.]

There was a video of the mass games on youtube, look up vice guide to north korea. It's an independent news thing I stumbled on, and you can skip most if you'd like although I liked it, and go to a later part. There's footage of it, it's massive.

The vice guide to north korea was some fat American nerd getting all butthurt because he couldn't visit a film studio whenever he wanted to and then proceeded to just make fun of the DPRK the rest of the time. The video stunk of chauvinism. Then again, what can you expect from a hipster magazine?


Yeah the existence of "Mass Games" is "regurgitated shit"... yeah you're so superior to those fake "communists"... oh wait... embarrassing for you.

No. Not really, doltard. You've only pointed out one part of the post which was actually not what my post was referring to.

Do better next time.

[KC]

God this thread sucks.

[Chambered Word]

Let's not try to kid ourselves that the West doesn't publish utter horseshit about the DPRK and Kim Jong-Il to justify imperialism. I find those list of so-called 'facts' about Kim Jong-Il very hard to believe myself. However, examples like this (http://www.nytimes.com/2009/03/09/world/asia/09iht-north.1.20696199.html) of North Korean 'democracy' demonstrate succintly how much control the proletariat really has over the state. Any acts of imperialism - sanctions, aggression and war - should be opposed by anyone who calls themself a Marxist. At the same time, when so-called Marxists claim that supporting a worker's revolution in so-called socialist states equals direct or indirect support for imperialism is to completely forsake Marxist analysis. I have seen supporters of the DPRK all too often denounce supporters of a worker's revolution as abetting imperialism; but would they say the same about socialists who call for the working class to take power in Iran - a state that the US treats with much hostility - or any other country under threat from foreign imperialists? This is what leads me to conclude that supporters of the DPRK (or any other state that calls itself socialist) are engaging in petty slander.

Are there any critiques that prove that the DPRK is indeed the dictatorship of the proletariat and that non-supporters on the far left are aiding counter-revolutionary and/or pro-imperialist groups with their rhetoric? Rather than just making slanders about Trots being stooges for the White House.

[The Vegan Marxist]

That really proves nothing. Not trying to act as an apologist, but seriously, vote counts don't mean shit. How the votes were made do. Which, we have no idea whether or not were legit. Although one has every right to criticize how leadership is made, we should more importantly criticize the leadership itself - meaning how the leader is doing his job, if he's doing the best he can to take care of his people. Which, given all the shit the DPRK's gone through, and yet they've been able to push out of starvation and famine in the '90s, while still provide the most centralized economy in the world, thus allowing free healthcare, free education, free shelter and energy, and employment for all, Kim Jong-Il has protected his people.

They're boosting their economy with very little use of private companies at all (hence why they're known as the most centralized economy in the world). Of the two Korea's, they [North] are the only ones who's been calling for peace and denuclearization under the correct conditions.

So why form some counterrevolutionary worker's revolt against the DPRK when all they need is greater conditions from foreign countries? There's a reason why they have a military first policy. And that very reason can be stopped by continuing peaceful relations. Their economy will continue to boost, more openness, etc. To call for the overthrowing of the DPRK today, under its present conditions, is counterrevolutionary.

[Geiseric]

Slave labor counts as employment to NK and China apoligists.
Slaves need food
Slaves need to be taught how to operate machinery
Slaves need lighting
Kim Jong Il is the opposite of what communism should be. Just look at how he propagandises his people with their worship and shrines to Kim Il-Sung. If votes are in question of being legit, it's fair to assume they aren't. Look at florida and michigan, those are in question but people assume they're not legit. They want to disarm South Korea because the North's economy is so bad, they can hardly afford to make any nukes. They're calling for peace because they're trying to make it seem like they've always been the peaceful ones, even after they were the ones who first invaded the south (not being pro-south, just a matter of fact).

Everything the DPRK has gone through is their ultra-stalinist leadership's fault. The regular workers had no motivation to be militaristic, nor is it their fault that all of the productive forces of north korea go to extravegant parties and propaganda demonstrations like the mass games.

[DaringMehring]

They're calling for peace because they're trying to make it seem like they've always been the peaceful ones, even after they were the ones who first invaded the south (not being pro-south, just a matter of fact).


The concepts of "North" and "South" Korea didn't really exist at the time of the Korean war. It is not fair to say that the North attacked the south, any more than to say the Bolsheviks attacked Siberia.

It is true that NK has used aggressive commando tactics. But so has the South and US been harassing NK.

However, as you say, this state doesn't justify the degenerate regime.

[DaringMehring]

So why form some counterrevolutionary worker's revolt against the DPRK when all they need is greater conditions from foreign countries?

Lol @ "counterrevolutionary worker's revolt" --- great Marxism there, claiming that workers overthrowing a military-bureaucratic regime would be counterrevolutionary. It seems like some Stalinist pathology about how the workers, who need to be brainwashed about the "Dear Leader," are secretly the enemies of the socialist state, whereas the bureaucratic regime is the true upholder of socialism.

Really, how can you not see that the NK regime is not the guardian of what socialized relations exist, but rather, their gravedigger? According to the Marxist social model, socialized relations and workers' power are the two components of relations of production in a socialist country. Having one without the other means that there is a contradiction that in the long run has to be resolved one way or the other. That theory has proved historically true in a number of other countries: USSR, China, Vietnam, east bloc... and in NK, it will eventually be the same.

Job well done to Stalinism for destroying yet another revolution. At least it gives us another delusional-cult character for the ages, in the hole-in-one-shooting opera-composing Kim Jong-Il.

[DaringMehring]

There's a reason why they have a military first policy.

So after your protests, calls of bullshit, etc. which were conclusively disproved using your own sources... now you admit it, and try to justify it. Glad to see you've at least rejoined the world of basic facts.

[Black Sheep]

A thread has to be made, that in a socialist country, inherited succession is oppossed!
So much socialism!

[Struggle]

It's quite clear that the cult of personality around Kim Il Sung will help to set peoples agendas through influence, just as the ruling class help to set peoples agendas through the media, the education system and those in government.

This move should be criticised. The DPRK need to advert from the family line taking leadership at some point, and this move in my opinion, is not helping the DPRK in the long term. Overall, it is a bad move, although I understand the argument of it ‘helping to create stability’.

With that said, I am not an expert on the DPRK. There is no such thing as on external expert on the DPRK, or any organisation/government for that matter. In order to be an expert, one needs to be on the internal. We can only go of what we have been told.

[Chambered Word]

That really proves nothing. Not trying to act as an apologist, but seriously, vote counts don't mean shit.

On the contrary, it should seem quite obvious that an election is rigged when one candidate receives 99% of the vote.


How the votes were made do. Which, we have no idea whether or not were legit.

One would expect that in an open, democratic society there would be more information available to the outside world on processes like voting in the DPRK. North Korea doesn't exist in its own impenetrable bubble.


Although one has every right to criticize how leadership is made, we should more importantly criticize the leadership itself - meaning how the leader is doing his job, if he's doing the best he can to take care of his people. Which, given all the shit the DPRK's gone through, and yet they've been able to push out of starvation and famine in the '90s, while still provide the most centralized economy in the world, thus allowing free healthcare, free education, free shelter and energy, and employment for all, Kim Jong-Il has protected his people.

When have Marxists reduced ourselves to criticizing the leadership of countries and little more? The entire democratic process and the means by which one class holds control over the state is of far more interest. In this respect the DPRK does not look like a worker's state at all.


They're boosting their economy with very little use of private companies at all (hence why they're known as the most centralized economy in the world). Of the two Korea's, they [North] are the only ones who's been calling for peace and denuclearization under the correct conditions.

DaringMehring makes a good point about the contradictions between collectivized means of production and the lack of worker's control in the DPRK.


So why form some counterrevolutionary worker's revolt against the DPRK when all they need is greater conditions from foreign countries? There's a reason why they have a military first policy. And that very reason can be stopped by continuing peaceful relations. Their economy will continue to boost, more openness, etc. To call for the overthrowing of the DPRK today, under its present conditions, is counterrevolutionary.

Imperialism should be stopped right in its tracks, but this is no more a legitimate excuse to not to support a worker's revolution than the DPRK's public healthcare system. To claim that the situation of the workers will be alleviated by lifting sanctions on North Korea is complete opportunism when the working class do not have control over the means of production in that country.

I often hear your last sentence paraphrased in one way or another, but no class analysis is given to back up this claim.

[The Vegan Marxist]

So after your protests, calls of bullshit, etc. which were conclusively disproved using your own sources... now you admit it, and try to justify it. Glad to see you've at least rejoined the world of basic facts.

Never denied their military first policy. What I did protest is that they spend more on the military than for their people. With their people provided free healthcare, shelter, energy, employment, etc. etc. That'll cost much more than it would towards the military.

[DragonQuestWes]

I'm pretty sure that North Korea hasn't really had a succession decided by the leader, considering that Kim Il-Sung died in 1994, so chances are if Kim Jong-Il is really against dynastic styled succession, it probably wouldn't happen that way. I could be wrong.

[Black Sheep]

I'm pretty sure that North Korea hasn't really had a succession decided by the leader, considering that Kim Il-Sung died in 1994, so chances are if Kim Jong-Il is really against dynastic styled succession, it probably wouldn't happen that way. I could be wrong.
Whoever succeeds Kim Jong Il, one thing is certain.

More monuments.
Because more monuments = more socialism

I wonder what superpowers the successor will have,and if they will be a match for Kim Jong Il, or even Kim Il Sung.
The north korean superhero league.

[StalinFanboy]

I find it strange that a self-proclaimed socialist country's stability hinges on one man, and not, you know, the working class.

[Wanted Man]

It's called "Mass Games."

-- Today, mass games are regularly performed only in North Korea (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_Korea), where they take place to celebrate national holidays such as the birthdays of rulers Kim Il-sung (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kim_Il-sung) and Kim Jong-il (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kim_Jong-il). In recent years, they have been the main attraction of the Arirang Festival (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arirang_Festival) in Pyongyang (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pyongyang). -- Wiki

On a North Korean touring website you can find: "DPRK’s main attraction and quite simply the most amazing thing you will ever see! For more details click here to see what all the fuss is about. Mass Games are truly one of those events that is once seen; never forgotten."

Full description from the site: http://www.koryogroup.com/travel_massGames.php

Do your research.


[edit: sorry, didn't realize this guy was just a troll acct; but it's useful info nonetheless I suppose]

So not every few weeks and not for few visitors then.

[LibertarianSocialist1]

Is it a military-bureaucratic regime or is it a degenerated workers state? It can´t be both.

[los.barbaros.ganan]

Slave labor counts as employment to NK and China apoligists.
Slaves need food
Slaves need to be taught how to operate machinery
Slaves need lighting
Kim Jong Il is the opposite of what communism should be. Just look at how he propagandises his people with their worship and shrines to Kim Il-Sung. If votes are in question of being legit, it's fair to assume they aren't. Look at florida and michigan, those are in question but people assume they're not legit. They want to disarm South Korea because the North's economy is so bad, they can hardly afford to make any nukes. They're calling for peace because they're trying to make it seem like they've always been the peaceful ones, even after they were the ones who first invaded the south (not being pro-south, just a matter of factstill beats ).

Everything the DPRK has gone through is their ultra-stalinist leadership's fault. The regular workers had no motivation to be militaristic, nor is it their fault that all of the productive forces of north korea go to extravegant parties and propaganda demonstrations like the mass games.

Here's a tip for you, TROW YOUR TV OUT OF YOUR WINDOW

[Geiseric]

Here's a tip for you, TROW YOUR TV OUT OF YOUR WINDOW

Do you know any better than I do about north korea? Have you been there? I haven't, but my news is from independent news. Why should a socialist country be so active in their military and propagandising their rulers? Why would a socialist country attack their neighbor, being an aggressor in war? I understand the embargo, but there are other ways of dealing with it.

[PhoenixAsh]

Never denied their military first policy. What I did protest is that they spend more on the military than for their people. With their people provided free healthcare, shelter, energy, employment, etc. etc. That'll cost much more than it would towards the military.

To bust your bublle.

The military expenditure of North Korea is 4 billion dollars in 2008 (Janes)...the GDP is about 28 billion. Thats 14% of the GDP. Now that is low compared to other figures.

Health care has been critisizes for not being free, being dilapidated and lacking medical supplies. The WHO was lyrical about the system....however posted not so flattering figures about death rates, disease and life expectancy. Amnesty International as well as several other organisations have criticised the HC system as being a farce. this is also been reported by escaped medical personal including surgeons who satted they had to operate without anesthetics.

As far as the figures are known the DPRK spend 2.1% of their GDP on health care. That is 7 times less than on military expenditure.

Not to mention the fact that it is widely reported that healthcare is free for those who can afford it. That is...you still have to pay for it.

[PhoenixAsh]

So not every few weeks and not for few visitors then.

Well they are performing for 5 weeks every evening. That avarages a number of 3 shows per week in a year. Its incredible...but also bizar.


A visitors log + pictures
http://libero2010.blogspot.com/2010/06/august-31st-2009-posted-by-libero2010.html

[DaringMehring]

Is it a military-bureaucratic regime or is it a degenerated workers state? It can´t be both.

A degenerated/deformed workers state is defined as relations of production consisting of socialized property relations combined with a bureaucratic dictatorship that negates workers' democracy/control/power.

Therefore, it is both.

[Wanted Man]

Well they are performing for 5 weeks every evening. That avarages a number of 3 shows per week in a year. Its incredible...but also bizar.


A visitors log + pictures
http://libero2010.blogspot.com/2010/06/august-31st-2009-posted-by-libero2010.html

Syd Barrett made it look as if it happens throughout the year, rather than a specific period.

I'm also sure that Syd Barrett has attendance numbers somewhere.

[PhoenixAsh]

Syd Barrett made it look as if it happens throughout the year, rather than a specific period.

I'm also sure that Syd Barrett has attendance numbers somewhere.

You are correct in that

Must have overlooked the numbers. The North Koreans report 3 million visitors for the shows annually.

If we take that number and we count the performers and performances.... thats somewhere near 1.2 performers per person.

Its incredibly impressive but the man power loss is incredible. And its IMO a bit obscene when you consider the economic difficulties. Would like to see one of those shows though.

[Geiseric]

Main concern is that resources go to this and not industrialising the country, and maybe feeding the people better. Mass Games imho is just for propaganda, making the state look strong, when in fact everything is bad. It seems like the same thing with their military, it's just for propaganda.

[Sinister Cultural Marxist]

A country suffering from malnutrition shouldn't host "Mass Games" period, let alone a socialist one. If those people spent that time planting apple trees in the hills, their country would be a nicer place. It's not only the labour of the dancers-just think about the labour and energy required to transport that many people to and from one place, train them, and feed them, all for a few lucky visitors.

A socialist country should not use the threat of a nuclear program (nuclear bombs are categorically evil to begin with) to extort food, even from the Imperialists, when they could spend those resources developing their own food industry. They should not attack civilians on islands off its coast, even when "provocative exercises" are being held (or sinking ships, but I suppose North Korea still denies involvement in that).

Socialists should not promote a dynastic succession (Kim Jong Il's "opposition" to it sounds like 'democrat' Jefferson's "opposition" to slavery... "Oh slavery is so bad, but for 'practical reasons' I can't get rid of it, so I might as well continue to benefit from it!").

A socialist country shouldn't punish people who disagree with the government, in labour camps, or punish people trying to migrate out of the country, or assassinate people who chose to live as refugees. And it shouldn't limit internal migration or provide the best health care, housing and education in Pyonyang (or to foreign born N Korean citizens).

A socialist country shouldn't build a goofy religion where their first, dead leader, is still president, and their current leader referred to as "glorious". There are all these mythologies to the Kim family, which seem bizarre from a socialist POV, such as how he was born in a mountain seen as holy by Korean traditional religion, and was heralded by the presence of a bird and some rainbows. Castro, Stalin, Mao, Ho all had or have cults of personality, but they are based on actual material conditions or events. It seems many of the facts claimed about Kim's life by the government are quite fanciful.

And lastly, real socialist countries shouldn't spend any resources on douchey fascistic military parades full of tanks, goose steppers and Ballistic missiles, (however that hardly makes NK unique among Stalinist states; if anyone saw the Chinese 60th anniversary parade, which featured, in addition to Hu Jintao in a Mao suit, modern tanks, and balistic missiles, several militias of pretty chinese lady cops in pink skirts and heels, they could see that this seems to be a problem facing all of these states.)


If you ask me, NK should have dropped its missile program years ago (it went 40 some years without being attacked by the US but also without nuclear weapons, i dont see how nukes make it more secure; its not in America's self-interest to attack NK even without the nukes and rockets).

Perhaps one of Kim Jong Il's advocates will dispute one or two of these facts, but at least some of them are plain for everyone to see, and even if the human rights abuses of the DPRK are exaggerated, there's no reason to think that there's no truth in them. After all, there really were Gulags in Russia, but Stalin did do a good job of making sure that foreign journalists did not go there.

North Korea does have extenuating circumstances that should be considered before condemning it outright. Yes, it suffered from American imperialism. Yes, it suffered (and still suffers) from sanctions. Yes, they have environmental disasters. However, Cuba makes do with those same conditions, (is literally right next to the United States not just an American proxy) and has far better conditions. These conditions don't excuse the level of poverty or authoritarianism there.


BTW, one interesting documentary to watch is on Dreznok, an American who defected during the 60s and now lives in Pyonyang. It is available to watch on Netflix, I believe it is called "Crossing the Line". One of the real telling things he says, and which he uses to defend the regime, is that he was always fed well even during the famine. I ask, what kind of socialist regime makes sure foreigners who defected and acted in some propaganda films are better fed than its people, while many were starving to death? He also showed the health care system, which was free but seemed really short on infrastructure.

[Comrade Marxist Bro]

A country suffering from malnutrition shouldn't host "Mass Games" period, let alone a socialist one. If those people spent that time planting apple trees in the hills, their country would be a nicer place. It's not only the labour of the dancers-just think about the labour and energy required to transport that many people to and from one place, train them, and feed them, all for a few lucky visitors.

A socialist country should not use the threat of a nuclear program (nuclear bombs are categorically evil to begin with) to extort food, even from the Imperialists, when they could spend those resources developing their own food industry. They should not attack civilians on islands off its coast, even when "provocative exercises" are being held (or sinking ships, but I suppose North Korea still denies involvement in that).

Socialists should not promote a dynastic succession (Kim Jong Il's "opposition" to it sounds like 'democrat' Jefferson's "opposition" to slavery... "Oh slavery is so bad, but for 'practical reasons' I can't get rid of it, so I might as well continue to benefit from it!").

A socialist country shouldn't punish people who disagree with the government, in labour camps, or punish people trying to migrate out of the country, or assassinate people who chose to live as refugees. And it shouldn't limit internal migration or provide the best health care, housing and education in Pyonyang (or to foreign born N Korean citizens).

A socialist country shouldn't build a goofy religion where their first, dead leader, is still president, and their current leader referred to as "glorious". There are all these mythologies to the Kim family, which seem bizarre from a socialist POV, such as how he was born in a mountain seen as holy by Korean traditional religion, and was heralded by the presence of a bird and some rainbows. Castro, Stalin, Mao, Ho all had or have cults of personality, but they are based on actual material conditions or events. It seems many of the facts claimed about Kim's life by the government are quite fanciful.

And lastly, real socialist countries shouldn't spend any resources on douchey fascistic military parades full of tanks, goose steppers and Ballistic missiles, (however that hardly makes NK unique among Stalinist states; if anyone saw the Chinese 60th anniversary parade, which featured, in addition to Hu Jintao in a Mao suit, modern tanks, and balistic missiles, several militias of pretty chinese lady cops in pink skirts and heels, they could see that this seems to be a problem facing all of these states.)


If you ask me, NK should have dropped its missile program years ago (it went 40 some years without being attacked by the US but also without nuclear weapons, i dont see how nukes make it more secure; its not in America's self-interest to attack NK even without the nukes and rockets).

Perhaps one of Kim Jong Il's advocates will dispute one or two of these facts, but at least some of them are plain for everyone to see, and even if the human rights abuses of the DPRK are exaggerated, there's no reason to think that there's no truth in them. After all, there really were Gulags in Russia, but Stalin did do a good job of making sure that foreign journalists did not go there.

North Korea does have extenuating circumstances that should be considered before condemning it outright. Yes, it suffered from American imperialism. Yes, it suffered (and still suffers) from sanctions. Yes, they have environmental disasters. However, Cuba makes do with those same conditions, (is literally right next to the United States not just an American proxy) and has far better conditions. These conditions don't excuse the level of poverty or authoritarianism there.


BTW, one interesting documentary to watch is on Dreznok, an American who defected during the 60s and now lives in Pyonyang. It is available to watch on Netflix, I believe it is called "Crossing the Line". One of the real telling things he says, and which he uses to defend the regime, is that he was always fed well even during the famine. I ask, what kind of socialist regime makes sure foreigners who defected and acted in some propaganda films are better fed than its people, while many were starving to death? He also showed the health care system, which was free but seemed really short on infrastructure.

Aren't you ashamed of regurgitating such simple-minded liberal/fascist propaganda? North Korea is wonderful.

[LibertarianSocialist1]

Aren't you ashamed of regurgitating such simple-minded liberal/fascist propaganda? North Korea is wonderful.
No, the DPRK is a hell on earth! Kim Jong-il eats babies! I saw it on Fox News!

[scarletghoul]

There certainly does seem to be a rotten clique of military strongmen who have used the country's situation to increase bureaucracy and revisionism. Whether Kim Jong-il is one of them or is just trying to balance power to maintain stability I dont know, probably the latter by the sounds of the news in the OP. Speculation on the DPRK's internal politics is difficult (some people deny it exists beyond the command of one infantile madman) so I just posted this as what seems to be a rare insight.

[Apoi_Viitor]

Speculation on the DPRK's internal politics is difficult (some people deny it exists beyond the command of one infantile madman) so I just posted this as what seems to be a rare insight.

I actually picture Kim Jong-Il as Sauron.

http://www.arwen-undomiel.com/images/other/Sauron_RotK.jpg

He is an omniscient deity who oversees and controls all activity in North Korea.

I'll also add, I think the 'hereditary' transfer of power in the regime is slightly worrying. Because while there was a hereditary transfer of power in Cuba, the cult of personality there is quite minimal (to the best of my knowledge)... Still, I'd like to see more meritocracy and genetic diversity in both regimes... Although conversely, didn't America already have a Bush in the White House? Sounds like a paternal autocracy to me!


Fact of the matter is that, despite whether you agree with cult of personality or not, it doesn't define whether a country is Socialist or not. If that's how you define socialism, then you're clearly not doing so under a Marxist stance.

Well, base determines superstructure right?

In a regime that displays the ruling member's family as divine and capable of mystical powers, and focuses on their leaders' hereditary lineage, I think it would be safe to assume the base of power in the regime is Aristocratic, right?