Fascism

[Vinny Rafarino]

Someone please explain to me how we can all sit around *****ing about what communist is the "Lenin's best fucking mate" while there is still a large percentage of people in this world that support fascism and nazi ideology. If I had my way we would all unite in at least this one simple struggle;

Eliminate fascists by any means necessary.

Yes I understand that most os you are still very young and cannot actually violently attack fascists and erase their archaic ideals from the planet once and foe all, but you can at least come to a conclusion that allowing even one fascist to speak his mind openly under the right-wing bourgeois ideal of "freedom of speech" you are allowing this disgusting seed to be planted in the minds of our youth.

For example;

Forums like "the phora" and others that grant these maggots the right to "speak their mind 'cos they want to increase "post counts". That's fucking bullshit. If shutting down every fucking message board is what it takes to shut these animals up, then so be it. Any individual that protects their right to speak publically is not only forgetting about the prolotariat but they are also acting directly AGAINST the proletariat.

Organise, target, and eliminate comrades. Any other way is just adding more petrol to an ever increasing fire.

[Deniz Gezmis]

I'm sure you won't be saying that when YOU'RE in prision. :)

[UnionofSovietSocialistRepublics]

Eliminate fascists by any means necessary.

I agree, neo-nazi ideals and people that follow them are our enemies and should be treated as such.
However on the whole unite thing i think 90% of people on this board are really working together, it just doesnt seem like it as alot of discussions are on narrow topics, which theres nothing wrong with, i hope it helps left wingers sort there feelings out. Most of us get along, but must accept our differences-as all communist (and for that matter cappie) leaders have, for example some people will preffer fidel as a leader, some mao, some stalin and so on, but they are all working to achieve essentially the main goals.

[Vinny Rafarino]

Mr. cool "death"

Thanks for being twelve years old. It's always nice wher someone reacts with a post on an alternate thread after they have been made to look foolish somewhere else.


Stalker.

By the way kid, I've already been to prison for my communist ideals. It ain't fun. Now either contribute or go away.

[Deniz Gezmis]

Originally posted by COMRADE [email protected] 3 2003, 12:53 PM
By the way kid
Here we go agian. First it's kid, Next it's liberal, After that it's Trotskyist, Then it's bourgeoisie counter revolutionary.

[Loknar]

RAF, you can not destory ideas. This is ancient knowledge.

THe Fascists have every right to operate. Remember, a Nazi is not the same thing as a Fascist.

[Vinny Rafarino]

Yeah yeah...blah blah blah...I can care less about what you think their "rights' are boy wonder. Fuck them, fuck their rights, fuck their government that gives them these "rights" and fuck you.

Mr. Death,



Here we go agian. First it's kid, Next it's liberal, After that it's Trotskyist, Then it's bourgeoisie counter revolutionary.



At least come up with something original. Mr. X already saif this yesterday. Like I said, I'm was ahead of you. Why don't you just make a thread in chit chat or something and voice how much you hate me there in place of following me around the forum firing off little childish flames. Tell you what "death", I'll make the thread for you.

[Loknar]

Originally posted by COMRADE [email protected] 3 2003, 01:07 PM
Yeah yeah...blah blah blah...I can care less about what you think their "rights' are boy wonder. Fuck them, fuck their rights, fuck their government that gives them these "rights" and fuck you.
You cant be older than 16.

Anyway, blah blah blah fuck your rights.

[Vinny Rafarino]

That's the best you got? I wish I were sixteen again. That was the year I last saw the Clash play live.


Keep defending those fascist's rights Loknar. Some jackass has got to look like a arse.

[Loknar]

Originally posted by COMRADE [email protected] 3 2003, 01:12 PM
That's the best you got? I wish I were sixteen again. That was the year I last saw the Clash play live.


Keep defending those fascist's rights Loknar. Some jackass has got to look like a arse.
Hey, if you can only argue and ***** on online because you cant do it to an actual human then fine by me.

I don’t wish to get into a name calling match with you.

Do you know how to debate? Why even post? People will disagree with you that's friggin normal. Did you know that?

[YKTMX]

Originally posted by Death+Sep 3 2003, 01:01 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Death @ Sep 3 2003, 01:01 PM)
COMRADE [email protected] 3 2003, 12:53 PM
By the way kid
Here we go agian. First it&#39;s kid, Next it&#39;s liberal, After that it&#39;s Trotskyist, Then it&#39;s bourgeoisie counter revolutionary. [/b]
Hey&#33; Plagirism.


Anyway, NO PLATFORM FOR FACISTS&#33;&#33; BLACK AND WHITE UNTIE, SMASH THE BNP&#33;&#33;

[Vinny Rafarino]

Loknar,

What the fuck are you on about? What does "doing it in actual human" mean anyway? Oh yeah, nothing.


Tell someone who cares.


Now back to facism and why we need to exterminate it.

As most of the population are of the silly ideology as Loknar here, we therefore will alsys grant the fascist racsist scumbags a way to recruit from our children. How does an archaic idealogy as this keep it&#39;s ranks? Simple. They target our youth at an age that they are most vulnerable. They recruit them i schools, playgrounds and even the internet. They lie their way into the minds of our youth and ward their reality into a illogical way of thinking. This is why the "hitler youth" programme back in the late 30&#39;s was such a huge sucess for Hitler. He knew that the ranks of his disgusting army will need to be filled with individuals driven by pure hatred. The easiest mind to mould is that of the impressionable youth.

Ask youself this;

What is the average age of the "internet message board poster"?

This is their crop comrades. They will hide behind that absurd "free speech" rant and continue to target the worlds youth with their lies and hatred.

This is unacceptable. We must do out duty as human beings and wipe their kind from existence. Start with what you can do. Know how to bring down a message board? Great, there are hundreds of Fascist message boards on the internet. Happy hunting. I&#39;m doing my part on the street, I implore all of those individuals not ready for direct conflict to fight with whatever weapons they have.

[Deniz Gezmis]

Originally posted by YouKnowTheyMurderedX+Sep 3 2003, 01:26 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (YouKnowTheyMurderedX @ Sep 3 2003, 01:26 PM)
Originally posted by [email protected] 3 2003, 01:01 PM

COMRADE [email protected] 3 2003, 12:53 PM
By the way kid
Here we go agian. First it&#39;s kid, Next it&#39;s liberal, After that it&#39;s Trotskyist, Then it&#39;s bourgeoisie counter revolutionary.
Hey&#33; Plagirism.


Anyway, NO PLATFORM FOR FACISTS&#33;&#33; BLACK AND WHITE UNTIE, SMASH THE BNP&#33;&#33; [/b]
Did i copy your exact words? No. kthx.

[YKTMX]

Ooo, sensitive. It&#39;s ok comrade, I can see why you would copy from me, I am awfully witty. Har Har.

[dannie]

i agree, facist, nazis or extreme right wingers (racists, discriminators) have no right of speech, but what first came in my head was, when you start killing those scumbags they will be seen as marters, and if you want to whipe their ideology&#39;s completly out, go start burning al them rightwinger books and crap,

it can be done, but it&#39;s as hard as starting a worldwide revolution

[UnionofSovietSocialistRepublics]

This is worrying, I see people actually siding with facism
loknar

THe Fascists have every right to operate. Remember, a Nazi is not the same thing as a Fascist.
I dont think it matters, they are different i know, however its in the same ball park. Neither of these are right, i&#39;m unsure why some one supposidly left wing is defending them, mind i notice u r a restricted member?

[Pingu]

i can&#39;t understand that someone can be a facist :blink: , then they are just evil

[Bianconero]

Fighting fascism means fighting capitalism. And yes, Comrade RAF, they don&#39;t deserve free speach etc.

It&#39;s not new, is it?

[Loknar]

So who are you guys to set the speech standards in society? This is what is known as tyranny of the majority.

[Inti]

Havent been in a good anti racist scrap in a long time.. When I was younger it was easier to spot them and jump them. Like one day when I was going home after practice.. 2 nazi skins beating a tiny asian man.. The nazis had their backs turned to me and it was in the night, so I dropped my training bag, ran a couple of yards, lifted from the ground and buried the heel of my boot in the back of one of them assholes.. Next one turned around, surprised look, and he recieved a knee on his balls and then a nice elbow in the back when he bent forward.. We let them run away afterwards and I hope they changed their stupid ideology.. I never regretted it and I would do it again if I see any shit like that.. Beat the shit out of them crappy fools..

[Bianconero]

This is what is known as tyranny of the majority.

But Loknar, that sounds terribly dangerous. I&#39;m sure you just scared many of my comrades away. Bad Loknar.

[Inti]

Originally posted by [email protected] 3 2003, 07:06 PM

This is what is known as tyranny of the majority.

But Loknar, that sounds terribly dangerous. I&#39;m sure you just scared many of my comrades away. Bad Loknar.
LOL :D

[Bolshevika]

I agree RAF. But the question remains: Can we trust the Trotskyites?

[Eastside Revolt]

First of all, you cannot destroy ideas.

Second of all, your pathetic if you believe facist ideals are so "dangerous" that anyone who hears them are gonna be sucked-in. I despise facism with all my heart, and having read about facism and having grown-up in a pro-facist society, I&#39;d have to say that only the most retarded and thick-headed people can be fooled into openly accepting facism.

What to me is dangerous, is the facism that is taught to the public while while being covered up as "just the way things are". The militarisation of the public, through television and movies scares me. They go and make all these bang, bang, shoot &#39;em up movies, that often portray police as these greast heroes. While tryng to pretend that there is some valid difference between black, and white men.

As far as this hate for freedom of speech, you just sound like a facist yourself. I feel you sould let the loonies say what they want to, and it is what they say that will expose them for being such loonies.

I have a question for RAF, why is it that if ideas spread like disease, communism is not predominant?

Could it be that OUR freedom of speech is kept down?

Offcourse thats a good thing isn&#39;t it? :rolleyes:

[YKTMX]

Originally posted by [email protected] 3 2003, 07:03 PM
I agree RAF. But the question remains: Can we trust the Trotskyites?
The SWP were crucial in starting the ANL and have been at the center of anti-Racism for decades so I think you&#39;re a bit off mark there.

[Scottish_Militant]

Why give fascist scum &#39;freedom of speech&#39; when they openly want to destroy it?

That is like giving someone a gun so they can shoot you with it :rolleyes:

[dannie]

no that&#39;s like giving someone a gun so he can destroy it

[Saint-Just]

Originally posted by [email protected] 3 2003, 01:03 PM
RAF, you can not destory ideas. This is ancient knowledge.
You can suppress and combat fascism in many ways. For example in the U.S. racism has been reduced to a large extent.

[Eastside Revolt]

Originally posted by Chairman Mao+Sep 3 2003, 08:31 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Chairman Mao @ Sep 3 2003, 08:31 PM)
[email protected] 3 2003, 01:03 PM
RAF, you can not destory ideas. This is ancient knowledge.
You can suppress and combat fascism in many ways. For example in the U.S. racism has been reduced to a large extent. [/b]
That is a Myth.

[elijahcraig]

I have been arguing with fascists nazis, etc. on phora for like three days now, I have told them they should be exterminated. They are pathetic. They deserve death. One Nazi, "FADEtheBUTCHER" I think, said to me "(or something close to wthis) What do I care about Africans starving in millions? I do not value them. They are not my interest. I would care about them much less than I would care about my dog getting hit by a car." Now, that in itself warrants death.

Only thick-headed get pushed into fascism? Nietzsche was a fascist. Millions turned fascist in WWII. It is a nationalist movement which works off of the capitalist exploitation, turning anger against other workers instead of against the oppressors. It is a deadly propaganda tool.

[Sovietski Soyuz]

Of course as a Marxist, I value human life, but Nazis and other Fascists aren&#39;t humans...

They do not deserve life.

[Rastafari]

come on, folks, we have to have some sense of equality. Nazi Scum are, in fact, people. Nazi Scum do, in fact, have rights protected by most misled gov&#39;ts.
Besides, if the Fascists had their way, noone would have any rights. We can&#39;t just say that we don&#39;t want to give them rights; thats no better then they would do.




And we do need to put this trots and liberal shit somewhere out of the way if we are ever going to go anywhere. Why do you think the fascist parties have so much trouble?

Same Fucking Reason, folks

[Vinny Rafarino]

Redcanada, I&#39;m not sure what you are actually on about but you indeed can controll people ideas. It must be done from a macro scale rather than a micro scale. It&#39;s simple massive progtamming. It happens everyday when you sit down at the tele and buy something cos of an advert you jsut saw.

Getting the amygdalic response you want out of an individual is tough indeed, howver put that same individual in a large group and they become as docile and mouldable as sheep. ?Hitler used this same principle of human evolutionary psychology to gain favour of his masses. As does every dictator that us obviously bonkers yet still has the love and full support from the populace.

Mental engineering is just as scientifically plausible as any other science. On you comment that "only the most retarded and thick headed people are fooled by fascism" well, you half right. Yes for the most part only fools fall for this line. Well guess what redcanada, the world is filled with about 5 billion fools.

And finally on the "why is communism not predominant"

I really can&#39;t believe you would even ask this. The west has used the principles I have explained above to COMPLETELY DESTROY or shamlessly warp the popular view for the benefit of free market enterprise. And where do they start these theachings redcanada?

Pick up a primary school textbook that describes the Societ Union. Here are the facrs;

We have lost the propaganda war. Under the current conditions we will never be able to have the rights you are *****ing about. Get over it and understand that life and politics are rarely fair. To allow a platform for fascism to even warp the mind of ONE of our children is a tragedy. We must do our jobs and stop looking for "moral issues" where logic says there is none. Yes redcanada that means you.

This is not a new science redcanada. Popular psycological engineering has been around for thousands of years.

[Eastside Revolt]

Okay I&#39;m sorry but I have to reply.

READ MY ORIGINAL POST AND THINK&#33;

You said exactly but in different words what I was trying to say, axcept that I was trying to add that we shouldn&#39;t be hippocritical about it.

There is a big difference between people who are openly facist, and the pro-facist culture we live in.

[Vinny Rafarino]

Good grief. I can&#39;t believe you just told me to think. Truly amazing. I answered each of your comments in my posts. Perhaps it will help if I break them down by category. Then it should become clear to you;


First of all, you cannot destroy ideas

and
have a question for RAF, why is it that if ideas spread like disease, communism is not predominant?


I really can&#39;t believe you would even ask this. The west has used the principles I have explained above to COMPLETELY DESTROY or shamlessly warp the popular view for the benefit of free market enterprise. And where do they start these theachings redcanada?

Pick up a primary school textbook that describes the Societ Union. Here are the facrs;


We have lost the propaganda war. Under the current conditions we will never be able to have the rights you are *****ing about. Get over it and understand that life and politics are rarely fair. To allow a platform for fascism to even warp the mind of ONE of our children is a tragedy. We must do our jobs and stop looking for "moral issues" where logic says there is none. Yes redcanada that means you.

This is not a new science redcanada. Popular psycological engineering has been around for thousands of years.




Second of all, your pathetic if you believe facist ideals are so "dangerous" that anyone who hears them are gonna be sucked-in. I despise facism with all my heart, and having read about facism and having grown-up in a pro-facist society, I&#39;d have to say that only the most retarded and thick-headed people can be fooled into openly accepting facism.

Redcanada, I&#39;m not sure what you are actually on about but you indeed can controll people ideas. It must be done from a macro scale rather than a micro scale. It&#39;s simple massive progtamming. It happens everyday when you sit down at the tele and buy something cos of an advert you just saw.

Getting the amygdalic response you want out of an individual is tough indeed, howver put that same individual in a large group and they become as docile and mouldable as sheep. ?Hitler used this same principle of human evolutionary psychology to gain favour of his masses. As does every dictator that us obviously bonkers yet still has the love and full support from the populace.

Mental engineering is just as scientifically plausible as any other science. On you comment that "only the most retarded and thick headed people are fooled by fascism" well, you half right. Yes for the most part only fools fall for this line. Well guess what redcanada, the world is filled with about 5 billion fools.


As far as this hate for freedom of speech, you just sound like a facist yourself. I feel you sould let the loonies say what they want to, and it is what they say that will expose them for being such loonies


This one I did not bother to answer as it was inane. I will now just for kicks;

Listen up mate, you say I sound like a fascist because I understand what psychological mechanisms Hitler used to gain massive favour of the German people. Too bad for you. If you want to call me a fascist go right ahead. You will only succedd in embarrassing yourself.

I hope you understand now mate.


THINK next time.

[Guest1]

companero, I truly do not see such a massive threat from fascism at the moment, at least not the kind you speak of. Fascists are mostly treated as cultists are in the west. Just some loonies, very small minority that is ignored until they break the law. And that&#39;s the way it should be. It is no one&#39;s place to tell people how to think. If they want to hate, let them hate. If they want to believe we live on a giant turtle, let them. Not my problem.

the real problem is this neo-fascism that is rising now, lead by the bush cabal. that is what is threatening. the subtly christian, corprate fasicsm that has ingulfed america is the true threat.

one more point. I think most of us would like to support you on this, but you make it impossible. I&#39;ll tell you why. The actions you speak of have nothing at all to do with freedom of speech. Some Nazi decides to beat up my lesbian friend, I&#39;ll beat the shit out of him. Or tries to speak at my school I&#39;ll boo and heckle him. Taking down an internet message board is akin to heckling. They have the right to have it, and I have the right to protest it and attack it (morally, not legally). Yet, you insist on destroying your own argument by saying they have no rights and are inhuman. That&#39;s a dangerous precedent. And if you believe in equality, you&#39;ll understand why.

[Eastside Revolt]

Originally posted by Che y [email protected] 4 2003, 12:16 AM
companero, I truly do not see such a massive threat from fascism at the moment, at least not the kind you speak of. Fascists are mostly treated as cultists are in the west. Just some loonies, very small minority that is ignored until they break the law. And that&#39;s the way it should be. It is no one&#39;s place to tell people how to think. If they want to hate, let them hate. If they want to believe we live on a giant turtle, let them. Not my problem.

the real problem is this neo-fascism that is rising now, lead by the bush cabal. that is what is threatening. the subtly christian, corprate fasicsm that has ingulfed america is the true threat.

one more point. I think most of us would like to support you on this, but you make it impossible. I&#39;ll tell you why. The actions you speak of have nothing at all to do with freedom of speech. Some Nazi decides to beat up my lesbian friend, I&#39;ll beat the shit out of him. Or tries to speak at my school I&#39;ll boo and heckle him. Taking down an internet message board is akin to heckling. They have the right to have it, and I have the right to protest it and attack it (morally, not legally). Yet, you insist on destroying your own argument by saying they have no rights and are inhuman. That&#39;s a dangerous precedent. And if you believe in equality, you&#39;ll understand why.
Amen

[Vinny Rafarino]

Originally posted by Che y [email protected] 4 2003, 12:16 AM
companero, I truly do not see such a massive threat from fascism at the moment, at least not the kind you speak of. Fascists are mostly treated as cultists are in the west. Just some loonies, very small minority that is ignored until they break the law. And that&#39;s the way it should be. It is no one&#39;s place to tell people how to think. If they want to hate, let them hate. If they want to believe we live on a giant turtle, let them. Not my problem.

the real problem is this neo-fascism that is rising now, lead by the bush cabal. that is what is threatening. the subtly christian, corprate fasicsm that has ingulfed america is the true threat.

one more point. I think most of us would like to support you on this, but you make it impossible. I&#39;ll tell you why. The actions you speak of have nothing at all to do with freedom of speech. Some Nazi decides to beat up my lesbian friend, I&#39;ll beat the shit out of him. Or tries to speak at my school I&#39;ll boo and heckle him. Taking down an internet message board is akin to heckling. They have the right to have it, and I have the right to protest it and attack it (morally, not legally). Yet, you insist on destroying your own argument by saying they have no rights and are inhuman. That&#39;s a dangerous precedent. And if you believe in equality, you&#39;ll understand why.
I understand what you mean comrade CyM. My militant views a lot of the time turn people off (you can remember our last conversation) however we can agree that a united front to fight fascism to it&#39;s extinction is in the best interest of socialism.

I never expected everyone to support my views on militancy. I personally do not accept that fascists and fascist nazis have any right to speak whatsoever. I am not a defender of "freedom of speech" regardless of content.

Is not one minority killed via a fascist hate crime too many comrade? As comrade Castro once said, [paraphrased] "If I am the last person standing that defends the revolution than so be it, I will never succomb to the bourgeois"

I will not tolerate ANY violent action against the proletariat that is based on blind hatred of colour, religion, class or sex. I simply cannot as to do so is against the values of Marxism. As I stated previously, those that do not support violent suppression and extermination of fascist ideology can support the fight in other ways. "Internet hacking" was just a vague example of this ideal, not a absolute request.

I wil not hide behind any "constitutional rights" designed to protect the bourgeois elite and fascists from attack&#33;

[187]

Don&#39;t you guys find it at all hypocritical that you frown upon Leftist censorship in a Rightist society, when you know you would never oppose Rightist censorship in a Leftist society?

[Rastafari]

Agreed, seen

[elijahcraig]

Wow, liberals defending fascists. hmmm

Every single fascist should be executed. Period.

No appeasement this time, comrades.

[Loknar]

I see a double standard here.

read 187&#39;s last post please.

[Dark Capitalist]

Originally posted by [email protected] 3 2003, 10:52 PM
Wow, liberals defending fascists. hmmm

Every single fascist should be executed. Period.

No appeasement this time, comrades.
I don&#39;t know, that seems rather fascist to me. :P

[elijahcraig]

You can see it however you like, fascists should be executed in broad sunlight.

[Guest1]

no one has the right to kill. you, acting independently, not as a government have the duty to beat the shit out of a fascist who has actually physically assaulted or killed. but you must not kill. you also shouldn&#39;t touch any fascist just cause you hate him. only in the case of violence should you use it.

but generally I stand with RAF, though I really don&#39;t agree with the free speech part.

if this was a government though, I would have to say, censorship is definitely beyond its rights.

[elijahcraig]

Who are you to say who has the "right" to do what? Fascist are the worst enemy to the people, I am a Marxist-Leninist, I am the enemy of the fascist. I am not a liberla, nor do I presrcribe to its "let all speak" ideology, a proletarian cultural revolution includes destroying ALL bourgeois elemnts of society.

[Don't Change Your Name]

I say we should kill them but not yet

F**K THE CORPORATION&#33;

[Sovietski Soyuz]

Originally posted by El Infiltr(A)[email protected] 4 2003, 04:49 AM
I say we should kill them but not yet

F**K THE CORPORATION&#33;
Huh? :blink:

Racial superiority, corporatism, glorification of one-man rule, and religious fundamentalism? I have participated in militant opposition to these pigs, they have no right to live.

[Sovietski Soyuz]

I just found a great quote in the "websites" forum that deals with this topic:


I have the perfect "equaliser" for the "ubermensch"...

Two shots to the back of the head.

:lol:

Credit to Comrade RAF.

[FistFullOfSteel]

Originally posted by COMRADE [email protected] 3 2003, 12:28 PM
Someone please explain to me how we can all sit around *****ing about what communist is the "Lenin&#39;s best fucking mate" while there is still a large percentage of people in this world that support fascism and nazi ideology. If I had my way we would all unite in at least this one simple struggle;

Eliminate fascists by any means necessary.

Yes I understand that most os you are still very young and cannot actually violently attack fascists and erase their archaic ideals from the planet once and foe all, but you can at least come to a conclusion that allowing even one fascist to speak his mind openly under the right-wing bourgeois ideal of "freedom of speech" you are allowing this disgusting seed to be planted in the minds of our youth.

For example;

Forums like "the phora" and others that grant these maggots the right to "speak their mind &#39;cos they want to increase "post counts". That&#39;s fucking bullshit. If shutting down every fucking message board is what it takes to shut these animals up, then so be it. Any individual that protects their right to speak publically is not only forgetting about the prolotariat but they are also acting directly AGAINST the proletariat.

Organise, target, and eliminate comrades. Any other way is just adding more petrol to an ever increasing fire.
i agree

[CompadreGuerrillera]

I wish there were Nazi&#39;s where I lived, theyd become my *****ES&#33; If i saw a Nazi, i&#39;d go ape, but unfortunatley, i havent been able to find many where I live, My freind had skinheads for neigbors, he invited me for us to beat them up&#33; But unfortunatley they moved away.


Fascism is for losers, who in their right mind could be a fascist??

Idiots, if they could only realise, that fascism implodes on it self, it is based on the thoguht that your group, nation, family, race, is the best of all. This leads to a power struggle with in, as well as the "ausslanders" to assimilate into your controlled nation. This will bring it down, Fascism revolves and operates on power and authority for one, not for all. The inner competition, no matter how strong the Fascist state will appear will always collapse, EVERYTIME&#33;

Only seemingly week socialist states stick together in a time of a great war. Using Russia in WW2 as an example. The Russians only kept going, because they trully believed in what they were fighting for, not just the homeland, but an ideology, one that was strong, even tho it was militaristically less powerful then the Nazis in Germany. The Germans when the tide turned, did not really want to fight for their archaic ideology, anymore. They had nothing to gain.

Once power in a facsist country is proved to be distablised, and weak, the whole nation, and its fascist gov&#39;t will collapse, because IT IS BULIT ON HIGH, AND STRONG AUTHORITY.

These, and many more reasons are why Fascism doesnt work&#33;

Fuck with that Fascist pukes&#33;

[Invader Zim]

Originally posted by COMRADE [email protected] 3 2003, 02:07 PM
Yeah yeah...blah blah blah...I can care less about what you think their "rights&#39; are boy wonder. Fuck them, fuck their rights, fuck their government that gives them these "rights" and fuck you.

Mr. Death,



Here we go agian. First it&#39;s kid, Next it&#39;s liberal, After that it&#39;s Trotskyist, Then it&#39;s bourgeoisie counter revolutionary.



At least come up with something original. Mr. X already saif this yesterday. Like I said, I&#39;m was ahead of you. Why don&#39;t you just make a thread in chit chat or something and voice how much you hate me there in place of following me around the forum firing off little childish flames. Tell you what "death", I&#39;ll make the thread for you.
While they say the same things about us... isnt that ironic. Anyway, silly bigotts always will exist, you cant rid the world of them, unfortunate as it is.

[elijahcraig]

Nothing is permanent Ak, we can at least try. I would personally take pleasure ina little fascist holocaust. I could be the heydrich of the nazi holocaust, only this time its the nazis who take the showers.

[Guest1]

fucking hell. I&#39;ve thus far tried to avoid comparing you to a fascist in this thread. I have resisted and resisted the urge. but GODDAMN you make it difficult. please reread your last post elijah.

[Sovietski Soyuz]

Yes, Elijah, maybe a tad extreme, but every dedicated fascist deserves a bullet. Period.

[elijahcraig]

Anyone who apologizes for nazis has something wrong with them. They shouild all be tortured and mutilated to death.

[Loknar]

Anyone who apologizes for communists has something wrong with them. They shouild all be tortured and mutilated to death.

[elijahcraig]

Anyone who apologizes for capitalists has something wrong with them. They shouild all be tortured and mutilated to death.

[Rastafari]

Shut



The



Fuck



Up&#33;

[elijahcraig]

YEs&#39;she[&#39;wuz a gooood libral&#33;

[Scottish_Militant]

RAF wrote

"Someone please explain to me how we can all sit around *****ing about what communist is the "Lenin&#39;s best fucking mate" while there is still a large percentage of people in this world that support fascism and nazi ideology. If I had my way we would all unite in at least this one simple struggle;

Eliminate fascists by any means necessary."

A fair point I though...

Elijahcraig however, voiced his support by starting a new thread called

&#39;Ant Trots?, Squash &#39;em&#33;&#39;

The left is in good hands..... :rolleyes:

[Vinny Rafarino]

Whatever you say bolshevic1917.


Fugazi.

[Scottish_Militant]

They are a decent band, although I prefer Body Count :D

[commie kg]

Originally posted by COMRADE [email protected] 6 2003, 02:10 AM
Whatever you say bolshevic1917.


Fugazi.
Even if you did find out who he is, you can still take his arguments seriously. He&#39;s got some good ones.

[Vinny Rafarino]

Sorry KG, this moron can go fuck himself. I have no time for such nonsense.


The fact that you both are Trots means all the difference in the world eh KG? Trots have no problem defending lies and deceit as ling as it&#39;s "trot" lies and deceit.

[caliban]

When you act like them you become them. Killing them, although a very attractive solution, is not the answer. How do you know when it&#39;s time to stop? Not just that but do you plan on killing anybody who doesn&#39;t follow your idiology or just the ones that you don&#39;t agree with. Besides, most of them are the literal "bottom of the barrel" when it comes to the strength of their grey matter. A facist is just a pissed off person who doesn&#39;t know any better and listens to the first fuck up they think has the answer or at least an answer they want to hear. No, l say save the bullets.....use a knife instead, then you will find out who the true facists are and how strong they want to save their pathetic lives. You don&#39;t really have time to beg for your life when somebody has a gun in your face, but with a knife you can help them to see the error of their ways and reform :lol:

[synthesis]

I wasn&#39;t aware that "fugazi" could be used as an invective.

It stands for "Fucked Up, Got Ambushed, Zipped In", right?

How do you use it the way you do?

[Vinny Rafarino]

Caliban,

We are not sadists my friend. I have no desire to hear anyone "beg" fore their lives before they are executed. In my mind they are already going to suffer the worse fate imaginable, the loss of their lives.

Making someone "beg" and "plead" and pretent to repent their crimes against the people is not a rational course of action. Before you say such things, I suggest you take a kife to a nazi and, make him beg for his life and thin cut his throat. If you are capable of such an action then you need psychiatric help.



Dyermaker,


wasn&#39;t aware that "fugazi" could be used as an invective.

It stands for "Fucked Up, Got Ambushed, Zipped In", right?

How do you use it the way you do?


Pronounced Foo-gay-zee. It&#39;s yanqui east coast (in the predominantly Italian sections) slang for "a fake"

[caliban]

So very sorry, my sad attempt at humor was not appreciated, l will think better next time. At the root my thought was that people like that will always exist, killing them is not the sollution. Somebody posted the thought that their idiology was not as deep rooted as others(fighting for an idiology instead of a belief). I was trying to add to that by joking that looking at the blade of a knife and give time to think about it and they would probably "see the light". Again l draw to the point that acting as they do, makes you just as bad. Relax, it was a bad joke, l am not a facist.

[Tasha]

There is no reason to limit someone elses rights because of what they believe in. If you want to rid the world of facism, simply prove them wrong Is it not easy to win a debate over someone else who has a much weaker idealogy? Teach children at a young age how to reason and choose moral paths, they will choose what is best. If you preach them your way of thinking at a young age are you not as bad as your opponent?

[caliban]

Holy shit&#33; I&#39;m so very sorry, l thought that you would be able to see sarcastic humor but l was wrong. Again l make the point that facists, given the option of life or their idiology, would probably chose life. The idiology is based on hate and therefore would not pass the test of a knife at their neck. Relax RAF, i&#39;m not a facist, l just consider facists feeble minded and not worth the consideration. It would be dangerous to just put them on the back burner and hope they go away(like they did in the 30&#39;s) but even more dangerous to give them honest consideration as a political idiology. Peace RAF, peace, l am here to learn not to hack to pieces&#33;

[Vinny Rafarino]

I know you are not a fscist. I think perhaps you misunderstood my post. I was not saying that you were fascist, as a matter of fact, it is clear by your original post you are not fascist. I was merely making a note to the fact that one should not take pleasure in executing a fascist.

[commie kg]

Originally posted by COMRADE [email protected] 6 2003, 05:24 PM
Sorry KG, this moron can go fuck himself. I have no time for such nonsense.


The fact that you both are Trots means all the difference in the world eh KG? Trots have no problem defending lies and deceit as ling as it&#39;s "trot" lies and deceit.
I don&#39;t even consider myself a Leninist, RAF. :lol:

I&#39;m merely saying that instead of blowing off bolshevik&#39;s arguments, refute them just like you did when you thought he was a 60 year old Trotskyist.

[Vinny Rafarino]

Funny, I always thought you were a trotskyist.

As I said before KG, I have no time for fugazis. He will never again have my respect and I will never again bother to speak with him. Dealing with worthless people for worthless outcomes are meaningless to me.

I still find it amusing we labelled him as "communist" charlatan at one point...how accurate that was.

[kitty44]

First of all RAF, whether you like it or not, there&#39;s this thing called FREEDOM OF SPEECH and we all are entitled to our own opinion. I don&#39;t agree with fascism but, and I stress but, they are entitled to their opinion. If everyone thought the way you did then there would be no freedom of speech. Lets face it we all have the right to think the way we want and if you don&#39;t like it then go live in the U.S. where your freedom of speech is slowly being taken away (just like all your other rights guarranteed(sp) under the bill of rights. Just remember the time in the U.S. history when their own citizens were being persecuted because the gov&#39;t thought they were communist.....you seem to be following that same train of thinking. Are you even old enough to remember that??? :ph34r:

[Vinny Rafarino]

Ican give a fuck all about your concept of freedom of speech, as it really means freedom of speech unless of course what you are saying is against the dagma of the government you live under. It&#39;s a good thing the fascist have people like you around to protect their "rights" &#39;cos we would not wnat them to feel even the sightest bit "uncomfortable" after a night of gay and jew bashing now would we?

Since you&#39;re going to be a pain in the arse with me I will tell you this kiddo, I&#39;m 35 and finished my gruaduate studies years ago. Whoops, bet you feel like a fool now.

In conclusion, as you have no idea who I am or what I am involved in, your post is camparable to babble at best.

[kitty44]

First of all RAF don&#39;t call me kiddo......I&#39;m older than you.....second of all I don&#39;t defend fascists, I disagree with their opinion but they&#39;re entitled to an opinion. And no, I don&#39;t feel like a fool.....I look at you as an ignorant american. You sound like an american which doesn&#39;t say much for your education.......one can tell by your spelling and grammar. Gay bashing is not usually done by fascists......it&#39;s usually done by homophobics.......doesn&#39;t make them fascists it just makes them predjudiced. If you were so damned smart then you would know that communists aren&#39;t much different than fascists......take a look at what they do to their own people......at least the fascists do their dirty deeds openly......in a communist country or a country with a military gov&#39;t people just "disappear".
What do you call what the american gov&#39;t is doing to it&#39;s own people???? What about what they are doing to the law abiding Muslim population???? By the way......have you forgotten that the U.S. sent many jews back to Europe to face certain death in WWII??? Or didn&#39;t they teach you that in school??? You can&#39;t take away one groups freedom of speech and not everyone elses......today it&#39;s them......tomorrow it could be you&#33;&#33;&#33;

[elijahcraig]

RAf&#39;S NOT AMERICAN AND MOST FASCISTS ARE FLAMING HOMOPHOBES.

[kitty44]

Guess what???? Not all fascists are homophobic and not all homophobes are fascist. Homophobic people come from all walks of life.....not just the fascist community. Why don&#39;t you check with Amnesty International about how homosexuals are treated around the world and you&#39;ll find out it&#39;s not just fascists that gay bash......gay bashers tend to be people that don&#39;t agree with other peoples lifestyles because it&#39;s different and it doesn&#39;t go with what they would consider normal. Live and let live.....as long as the relationship is between two consenting adults then it&#39;s no one elses business.

[elijahcraig]

Go to www.thephora.org, there may be one non-homophobic fascist out of a hundred. Go to stormfront, none I bet. When a fascist says "Why should I care about millions starving in Africa? They are of no value to me. I would care much more about my dog being hit by a car." People like that deserve death pure and simple. You think Lenin would have let fascists run around in the USSR mouthing off at everyone? NO, racism was punishable by death under Lenin.

[Vinny Rafarino]

Originally posted by [email protected] 8 2003, 11:24 PM
First of all RAF don&#39;t call me kiddo......I&#39;m older than you.....second of all I don&#39;t defend fascists, I disagree with their opinion but they&#39;re entitled to an opinion. And no, I don&#39;t feel like a fool.....I look at you as an ignorant american. You sound like an american which doesn&#39;t say much for your education.......one can tell by your spelling and grammar. Gay bashing is not usually done by fascists......it&#39;s usually done by homophobics.......doesn&#39;t make them fascists it just makes them predjudiced. If you were so damned smart then you would know that communists aren&#39;t much different than fascists......take a look at what they do to their own people......at least the fascists do their dirty deeds openly......in a communist country or a country with a military gov&#39;t people just "disappear".
What do you call what the american gov&#39;t is doing to it&#39;s own people???? What about what they are doing to the law abiding Muslim population???? By the way......have you forgotten that the U.S. sent many jews back to Europe to face certain death in WWII??? Or didn&#39;t they teach you that in school??? You can&#39;t take away one groups freedom of speech and not everyone elses......today it&#39;s them......tomorrow it could be you&#33;&#33;&#33;
What a load of bollocks.

I&#39;m not an american kiddo.......... nor do I care what you think of my spelling or grammar as this is a fucking message board..........Okay??????.......... Before being a jackass.......please take a look at your own post mate, again it is bordering on babble.........Make sense to ya kiddo???

Ramember kiddo, we don&#39;t give a toss about spell checking to correct typos. I also already told you I in no way give a toss about your concept of fredom of speech as it only exists for those that agree with what your petty capitalist goverment does. For someone who is older that 35 you sure have a lot of growing up to do.

Especially on that U-238 business, good grief, what a joke.

[kitty44]

Speak for yourself.....I come from a socialist country not a capitalist country.....unlike you. So who made you judge and executioner??? Or is it that you don&#39;t believe that one has the right to think what they want to think? I don&#39;t really give a rat&#39;s ass whether you agree with me or not but I&#39;m entitled to my opinion and I will express it as much as I want. Freedom of speech exists for most people except those in a Communist country. Try having freedom of speech in Cuba and see where it gets you.

[Vinny Rafarino]

You have no idea where come from, AND the fact you just called CANADA a socialist country proves you have absolutley no knowledge of politics.


The freedom of speech bag is old news kiddo, everyone here knows I don&#39;t not fully advocate free speech. Free speech leads to fascists rising to power with no legal recourse to stop them. Free speech leads to children being indoctrinated at 3 years old into the KKK. Freedom of speech allows people to publically slander and humitiate other members of humanity. Freedom of speech guarantees rights to individuals who preach hatred and murder of minorities.

Freedom of speech does not apply to a black man in the BPU. Freedom of speech does not apply to a man in the communist party. Freedom of speech only applies to fat, rich white men.

You can take you "freedom of speech" and shove it straight up your canuck backside pal.


EDIT:

To say such a thing about Cuba also proves your political ignorance. And by the way, Canada is as capitalist as the USA. Try reading on precisely what socialism and capitalism are. It makes a world of difference when you post.

[Loknar]

Churchill was right about dictators: "they&#39;re afraid words."

RAF are you actually a Communist? I thought Marx advocated liberty.

[Don't Change Your Name]

Loknar, you are just an example of the neo-liberal thinking, which doesnt kill the opposition because they make more profit by exploiting them. You always have some resort against the opposition.

Oh and freedom of speech is what makes fascists humilliate freely and if you tell them to shut up they say that there&#39;s freedom of speech, although they want a society without but. That&#39;s ironic.

[elijahcraig]

Many people on the several socialist-communist message boards have been to Cuba many times, they tell what it is really like; you are spewing propaganda about Cuba, I suggest you stop.

[Vinny Rafarino]

Originally posted by [email protected] 9 2003, 02:24 AM
Churchill was right about dictators: "they&#39;re afraid words."

RAF are you actually a Communist? I thought Marx advocated liberty.
You&#39;re going to attempt to instruct me on marxism. That&#39;s rich.

Please by all means boy-wonder. Instruct away. I&#39;m fucking on the edge of my seat waiting for this brilliant piece of work.

C&#39;mon boy, tell what Marx advocated, and don&#39;t scimp on the patté.

[Loknar]

Whenever a particular freedom is put in question, freedom in general is put in question.

Whenever one form of freedom is rejected, freedom in general is rejected and henceforth can have only a semblance of existence, since the sphere in which absence of freedom is dominant becomes a matter of pure chance. Absence of freedom is the rule and freedom an exception, a fortuitous and arbitrary occurrence. There can, therefore, be nothing wronger than to think that when it is a question of a particular form of existence of freedom, it is a particular question. It is the general question within a particular sphere. Freedom remains freedom whether it finds expression in printer&#39;s ink, in property, in the conscience, or in a political assembly. But the loyal friend of freedom whose sense of honour would be offended by the mere fact that he had to vote on the question whether freedom was to be or not to be — this friend becomes perplexed when confronted with the peculiar material form in which freedom appears. He fails to recognise the genus in the species; because of the press, he forgets about freedom, he believes he is judging something whose essence is alien to him, and he condemns his own essence. Thus the Sixth Rhine Province Assembly condemned itself by passing sentence on freedom of the press.


The highly sage, practical bureaucrats who secretly and unjustifiably think of themselves in the way that Pericles openly and rightly boasted of himself: "I am a man who is the equal of anyone both in knowing the needs of the state and in the art of expounding them" [F] — these hereditary leaseholders of political intelligence will shrug their shoulders and remark with oracular good breeding that the defenders of freedom of the press are wasting their efforts, for a mild censorship is better than a harsh freedom of the press. We reply to them with the words of the Spartans Sperthias and Bulis to the Persian satrap Hydarnes:

"Hydames, you have not equally weighed each side in your advice to us. For you have tried the one which you advise, the other has remained untried by you. You know what it means to be a slave, but you have never yet tried freedom, to know whether it is sweet or not. For if you had tried it, you would have advised us to fight for it, not merely with spears, but also with axes." [G]




http://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works...-press/ch06.htm (http://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1842/free-press/ch06.htm)

[Vinny Rafarino]

Okay Loknar. This AGAIN.

You do know the difference between SOCIALISM where the bourgeois is suppressed and COMMUNISM where their is no need to worry about subversionism. Good god man, you have been on this site for months and you still have no clue.

By the way did you know marx was also a philoshopher?

What does Marx&#39;s views on Freedom of the press under a stateless communist society have anything to do with socialism and freedom of speech under capitalistis and socialistic environments? Absolutely nothing Loknar.

Damn good try though, I was surprised you even found this little tid-bit. Luckily I read it 20 years ago.

[Loknar]

Okay Loknar. This AGAIN.

You do know the difference between SOCIALISM where the bourgeois is suppressed and COMMUNISM where their is no need to worry about subversionism. Good god man, you have been on this site for months and you still have no clue.


No I do see your point here, it was something that I did not consider. However with this in mind there should be no reason to hinder any freedoms am I correct?




By the way did you know marx was also a philoshopher?



Yes of course. A good one too.



What does Marx&#39;s views on Freedom of the press under a stateless communist society have anything to do with socialism and freedom of speech under capitalistis and socialistic environments? Absolutely nothing Loknar.


Press and speech are very close. The only difference is one is writing and one is speech but the words don’t change. But to answer your question, Marx seems to advocate Freedom of Speech in general, he did say:

Whenever a particular freedom is put in question, freedom in general is put in question.


On a side note, I am not an ignorant capitalist that believes Communism is evil because I am told that. I actually read Marx, hell Marxists.org is bookmarked on my browser, heck sometimes I even read Mao and Stalin.

[Vinny Rafarino]

No I do see your point here, it was something that I did not consider. However with this in mind there should be no reason to hinder any freedoms am I correct?



Under communism there would indeed be no reason to inhibit anyone&#39;s freedoms. However during the transitional period that surves many purposes, including the great struggle to abolish class society, but is focused primarily on two things;

1] The suppression of the former bourgeois class to the point they are no longer even a fleeting memoy to the fourth generation of socialist man.

2] Establish a working economic platform based on social economics that slowly incorporates all elements of communism over several generations, hopefully being fully ready to transition into a monetaryless system where the state begins to dissolve once the globe is completely rid of free-market economics and the former bourgeoise class are completely eliminated from the hearts and minds of the people.

Once communism is present, there is not need for the supression of anyone&#39;s "freedom"

[dancingoutlaw]

Comrade RAF, so after four generations this suppressive government just ends?

[Loknar]

RAF, does that not sound like Fahrenheit 451?

[Desert Fox]

I didn&#39;t bother to read the etire thread. Only read the first 5 posts. So you would to eliminate all nazis, that sounds like genocide. Oh that is genocide, so you are against people who want genocide of a people, but you wouldn&#39;t mind to kill those people. So you are a hypocrit, but I don&#39;t doubt that somebody used this argument. Debate like a real human being with them instead of killing them off :D

[Vinny Rafarino]

Originally posted by Desert [email protected] 9 2003, 05:10 PM
I didn&#39;t bother to read the etire thread. Only read the first 5 posts. So you would to eliminate all nazis, that sounds like genocide. Oh that is genocide, so you are against people who want genocide of a people, but you wouldn&#39;t mind to kill those people. So you are a hypocrit, but I don&#39;t doubt that somebody used this argument. Debate like a real human being with them instead of killing them off :D
Outlaw,

This state will not dissolve all at once, It will probably require up to a decade to completerly dissolve it.


Fox,

It&#39;s sounds like genocide because it is genocide. I have no qualms eliminating every last fascist from humanity. No communist would.

[elijahcraig]

I call it self-defense.

[dancingoutlaw]

Comrade RAF

I still do not understand why a government would, even over a period of a decade, cease to be. I especially have a hard time believing a suppressive government, even one started with the best of intentions, with no true oppositon giving up the helm.

[synthesis]

It&#39;s not genocide if you aren&#39;t going after a race (genotype.) Killing all nazis would more appropriately be called ideo-cide. Actually, as long as I&#39;m making words up, I prefer "fascicide." Hey, it might catch on...

[DePaul]

Wow, a person from another forum sent me hear saying it was addictive- when in fact after reading just this thread I spend an hour cleaning puke off of my monitor- this place is a freakshow...

[Dark Capitalist]

Welcome, friend.

[Vinny Rafarino]

Individuals like yourself Depaul usually do not understand intellectual political debate sites such as this. I recommend *************** or conservativex.com for your archaic and pedomorphic ideology.

Or you can simply play with something shiny for a bit. Remember kid, there&#39;s a difference between shit and shine-ola


Outlaw,

You assume that the government has ceased to put the people first. I don&#39;t agree with your assertion that the government will not want to give up "power". Especially since not one person in the govermental body is living in a "palace" or is wealthy. You are suggesting that no matter ehat, these people will fall from their opriginal ideals ond re-embrace the bourgeoisie lifestyle. Your op[inion is based on nothing but rhetoric with no substancial support. Which is fine, anarchists have been surviving off of theory alone for ages. Does that mean they are correct? No not all, it only means they do not have the ability or the desire to admit that not everyone in the vanguard wants to be a wealthy dictator. On the contrary, the vanguard is comprised of individuals that have been fighting this war against the classes against with more heart and soul than anyone else.

You simply want to say we are wrong, without supporting your theories with evidence. Well only time will tell outlaw, because in the event of ANY revolution, I can guarantee that there would NEVER be a leap "straight to communism" and thus a centralised govermental body would have to take over. That is if you don&#39;t want to fall straight back to the fuedal age that is.


Dyermaker,

Not so, genocide simply means the complete elimination of any specific set group of people. Call it genocide, call it mass-murder, call it whatever you like, I don&#39;t care. I refuse to give Nazis and other fascist the platform in which to brainwash more of our youth with their disgusting lies. If "education" worked on these twats, this ideology would have been eliminated years ago. These morons still idolise HITLER. Who care what they think. On top of that, any individual that supports nazi and fascist right to exists only becomes a tool for their ideology. A crime just as, if not more, treacherous and disgusting as fascism itself.

[Desert Fox]

Originally posted by [email protected] 9 2003, 07:48 PM
I call it self-defense.
So you are not a white male. But not every nazi act. Some don&#39;t show their believes publicly since they would be treated as outcast. And those people are the real threat, nobody would suspect them from something like killing people for their race. Those who show that they are nazis are no threat at all, they talk talk but don&#39;t act ;)

[dancingoutlaw]

Comrade RAF I do not contend that there will not be a leap to communism as you say. I do have disagree with your assumption of a benevolent oligarchy (for lack of a better term.) Who is to assure anyone that 3 generations removed from the reign of "Comrade RAF the Peacebringer" that the same values that you and those that fought for the revolution hold dear will be retained. As for support I look to history. There are very few, and I mean very few times that government was given up peacefully. This hand-off is to yet another form of the same government. Most of us see it as western democracy. There has NEVER been a government that just peacefully ceased to be. There has NEVER been a suppressive government with no real opposition that has peacefully ceased to be. My evidence is the history books.

You are obviously a very smart fellow. What I am trying to understand is how you justify this beleif that a rulership by an annoited few will one day (granted over time) cease. There is always one more bourgeoisie to find and re-educate. There is always an equality that is not spread even. There is always a way for a government (or departments therein) to justify its own existence. A belieif in this new socialist man is tantamount to the second coming. A belief in a government that just goes home is equal to Santa Claus.

Respectfully Yours

[Vinny Rafarino]

There has also never been a state that has been ready to evolve into a communist society. Does that mean that the theory supporting possibility that it can be done be scrapped? Of course not. There are several key factors that must be implemented prior to any society being stateless.

1] complete elimination of bourgeois ideology. You claim this cannot be done, I claim it can, however to accomplish this, there will be several generations of severe suppression/elimination of the bourgeoisie coupled with strict popular programming. There is no other way.

2] A completely global socialist society must be present prior to the transition to communism. Without this, the appropriate conditions for communism will not exist.

3] Understanding that governmental positions carry no more salary or benefits than that of the common proletariat and that no one individual will have "all power" it is not irrational for any one to surmise that the devolutioin of a centralised body of government is possible. There must be "benefits" above and beyond the standard level of sociologialexistence for any rational human being to refuse or denounce devoltion of the state. This is the responsibility of the peolotariat to manage. If they choose to ignore it as they did with Khruschev and his successors, then it will be untimely difficult to remove these men from power, but inherently, the fault will lay with the proletariat if this is the case. I am telling you it is possible to devolve a government if indeed the proletariat is completely and suberbly politically mature. Without this there is no use ever attemting communism.

I personally feel that there will never be a time where all government is abolished, however I am more than willing to try. I say this as it&#39;s truly the most rational recourse as if there is to be law, there will be the need to have those who enforce the law. If there exist those who enforce the law, there will always be a need for those that see these enforcers do not abuse their abilities. With the establishment of a "local government" there will always be the need of a higher order to make sure these local governments hold true to the same laws that exist. Once there is discrepency in law amoung different communities, there will then be an re-emergence of "politics" within these communites.

Follow the line to the end comrades, it is perfectly clear.

To avoid these from happening, I see no abolute way to operate a civilisation without a governmental body however as a marxist, I am, again, willing to try my very best to make a statelesds society work.

As a marxist/leninist, endorsing a completely stateless society is the only time will ever defy logic for ideology. I fear logic will once again prevail in this case, but I would love to see it fail.

[elijahcraig]

I don&#39;t think classless society is "against logic". Did not primitive communism exist already?

[dancingoutlaw]

I don&#39;t think classless society is "against logic". Did not primitive communism exist already?

When?

[synthesis]

You&#39;re correct, RAF. My apologies.

I looked up the word on dictionary.com, and found this.


The systematic and planned extermination of an entire national, racial, political, or ethnic group.

This guy at the Jewish Community Center I attend every so often to exercise (I&#39;m not Jewish) claimed on several occasions that it applied to racial extermination only. He was wrong.

[Guest1]

bureaucracies are self-perpetuating. governments are self-perpetuating. and anyone who is ready to blame the workers for the faults of the greedy pigs they trusted to lead them to democracy and socialism, has no sympathy for the working class. should we blame them for trusting the capitalist? just as they have purposely been misled and miseducated by the capitalist, so will they be misled and miseducated by the leninist. and so long as this government has the power to kill, no one will try to properly educate them, unlike we are doing in capitalism.

it soils the name of communism, and this is not meant as an insult to you.

secondly, I don&#39;t like the lenninist plan because it is complicated and rigid. our job is to change the world. that&#39;s complicated enough, let&#39;s do it as simply as possible in order to be able to resist all these pressures against this change that are already there. more importantly, as naturally and humanly as possible. this social engineering, re-education bullshit isn&#39;t gonna work. or it&#39;ll be another nightmare study on how humans love to kill one another and abuse their power over one another.

stick with the basics, and give them right away:

-rewrite democracy, make it efficient and bottom-up representative democracy.
-legalize all victimless crimes
-quality socialized healthcare
-quality socialized education to university level
-japan-style constitutional no-war clause coupled with asking the UN to assure a rapid response in case US meddle (you have a small defensive, peaceful army, what are they gonna say? NO?)

then you start going up not so slowly on your socialist agenda with all the money from cutting the military:

-free basic housing
-free public transportation in major cities (then more and more)
-free basic food
-subsidized purchase of a new electric car if you give away old one to government (who sells parts overseas)

now that you&#39;ve freed up institutions, the environment and human rights from capitalism, you start (this is the long part) the freeing up of the people from capitalist economics:

-concentration on tech, to allow people (all provided with jobs now, this is like 50 years down the line, maybe 100), to cut labour time. If none of us can lose our job, and a machine is introduced into the factory, we all just work less.
-now, everyone works unpaid. the only currency is a card. a card that would have to be difficult to forge. on it is a record. a record of work. you must continue to work, unpaid. and this record shows you still do (minus vacations, etc..). but, show this card at a bar and run it through, and the barkeep knows you are a companero, a man who works only to help his brothers and sisters. this is the good part, so is he. and he&#39;ll dot he same for you, everything is free, as long as you play along and work too. now if you don&#39;t, no biggy, you just don&#39;t get served. if you start working, you do, no bad credit or anything. if you and your cappie friends want to go to the middle of nowhere and create a little cappie cult where you do have money, that&#39;s fine too. everyone will prefer our system.

I love this idea. it seems so sensible, so natural. best of all, the people see the progress. and communism is like an essay, you gotta get your readers hooked, especially if it&#39;s a long one like communism is. darkness and repression is no good start.

[elijahcraig]

bureaucracies are self-perpetuating. governments are self-perpetuating. and anyone who is ready to blame the workers for the faults of the greedy pigs they trusted to lead them to democracy and justice, has no sympathy for the working class. should we blame them for trusting the capitalist? just as they have purposely been misled and miseducated by the capitalist, so will they be misled and miseducated by the leninist. and so long as this government has the power to kill, no one will try to properly educate them, unlike we are doing in capitalism.

I wanna hear you say that when a nazi stabs your little brother for being a certain race. You are what we Communists call: LIBERAL PETTY BOURGEOIS.


it soils the name of communism, and this is not meant as an insult to you.

Yes it is. You are insulting, and just did, insult Leninists.


secondly, I don&#39;t like the lenninist plan because it is complicated.

What does this mean? You are lazy and can’t scientifically analyze the economic system and act accordingly?


our job is to change the world. that&#39;s complicated enough, let&#39;s do it as simply as possible in order to be able to resist all these pressures against this change that are already there.

Simply? What does this have to do with anything? Economics are not simple when dealing with millions of people, despite your utopian claims.


more importantly, as naturally and humanly as possible. this social engineering, re-education bullshit isn&#39;t gonna work. or it&#39;ll be another nightmare study on how humans love to kill one another and abuse their power over one another.

I want to know how exactly you would “re-educate” someone. IF you mean, teaching history from a Marxist perspective, that is re-education in the positive. I don’t even know how to go about brainwashing someone, I don’t even think that’s ever been done in Socialist countries. They try to make it sound bad, but it is not.

“Social engineering”? What do you think Marx meant by “the most radical rupture with traditional values”? This is social engineering. Making socialist man from capitalist man.


stick with the basics, and give them right away:

-rewrite democracy, make it efficient and bottom-up representative democracy.

Democracy has been accomplished in USSR, China, Cuba, etc. USSR had a vote, and when the people voted, they made “People’s Instructions” which the officials were made to follow or they would face recall most probably. Also, 48% of managers/officials were recalled in one year alone. That is “bottom-up”, non-corporate, proletarian democracy.


-legalize all victimless crimes

What crime does not have a victim? Drugs? I agree with legalization of drugs, though heroin and cocaine should be cut-off completely. They serve no purpose. Pot and lighter stuff is fine by me.


-quality socialized healthcare

They had this in the USSR.


-quality socialized education to university level

They had this in USSR and Cuba, and most every socialist state.


-japan-style constitutional no-war clause coupled with asking the UN to assure a rapid response in case US meddle (you have a small defensive, peaceful army, what are they gonna say? NO?)

That’s just nonsense. If you think the Imperialist US is going to be stopped by an organization which has nearly no power whatsoever, which is an organization which has supported Imperialist wars since its creation…you are a Utopianist. A build-up of defense against Imperialists is a must.



All of these things would take time. From capitalism to socialism.


then you start going up not so slowly on your socialist agenda with all the money from cutting the military:

-free basic housing

Agree.


-free public transportation in major cities (then more and more)

Agree.


-free basic food

Agree.

Although, all of these “free” things would obviously depend on if you are a contributor to the socialist state. Laziness will not be rewarded.


-subsidized purchase of a new electric car if you give away old one to government (who sells parts overseas)

This is not on the menu for a surviving socialist state surrounded by Imperialists. This may come in the distant future, at this time, we would be good to avoid famine and war.


now that you&#39;ve freed up institutions, the environment and human rights from capitalism, you start (this is the long part) the freeing up of the people from capitalist economics:

-concentration on tech, to allow people (all provided with jobs now, this is like 50 years down the line, maybe 100), to cut labour time. If none of us can lose our job, and a machine is introduced into the factory, we all just work less.

Technology was massively built up under the Five-Year Plans, we should most definitely not wait this long to industrialize, we would be crushed.



-now, everyone works unpaid. the only currency is a card. a card that would have to be difficult to forge. on it is a record. a record of work. you must continue to work, unpaid. and this record shows you still do (minus vacations, etc..). but, show this card at a bar and run it through, and the barkeep knows you are a companero, a man who works only to help his brothers and sisters. this is the good part, so is he. and he&#39;ll dot he same for you, everything is free, as long as you play along and work too. now if you don&#39;t, no biggy, you just don&#39;t get served. if you start working, you do, no bad credit or anything. if you and your cappie friends want to go to the middle of nowhere and create a little cappie cult where you do have money, that&#39;s fine too. everyone will prefer our system.

This is not possible unless the whole of the world, or a vast majority, is socialist. As RAF has said, the world would be majority capitalist, so you would have to adhere to their values on goods.

[Guest1]

You are what we Communists call: LIBERAL PETTY BOURGEOIS.

call me a Liberal Petty Bourgeois again and I will lose the "you are my comrade" routine. I really don&#39;t want to get into this bullshit with you, where did I insult you?


What does this mean? You are lazy and can’t scientifically analyze the economic system and act accordingly?

Simply? What does this have to do with anything? Economics are not simple when dealing with millions of people, despite your utopian claims.

I want to know how exactly you would “re-educate” someone. IF you mean, teaching history from a Marxist perspective, that is re-education in the positive. I don’t even know how to go about brainwashing someone, I don’t even think that’s ever been done in Socialist countries. They try to make it sound bad, but it is not.

“Social engineering”? What do you think Marx meant by “the most radical rupture with traditional values”? This is social engineering. Making socialist man from capitalist man.

first, I am not lazy, what I meant by leninism being complicated is that complicated change doesn&#39;t work. it fails halfway through the process. I wasn&#39;t saying economics should be simple, I was saying that adding to it killing and arresting and annihalating people, juggling that with keeping people believing in the system as 10% of the population disappears with no trace isn&#39;t gonna be the easiest thing. better put, it&#39;s dumb and unnecessary and will get you overthrown. second, marx meant education, not RE-education. you can&#39;t force people to change their minds, RAF was implying you can.

The People are like a beautiful woman. You can either rape her madly and lose her beauty forever, or you can woo her with honey and flowers and enjoy her beauty again and again.


Democracy has been accomplished in USSR, China, Cuba, etc. USSR had a vote, and when the people voted, they made “People’s Instructions” which the officials were made to follow or they would face recall most probably. Also, 48% of managers/officials were recalled in one year alone. That is “bottom-up”, non-corporate, proletarian democracy.

I meant real democracy that has never been seen before. I wasn&#39;t comparing it to China, if I was, I&#39;m not exactly aiming very high.


That’s just nonsense. If you think the Imperialist US is going to be stopped by an organization which has nearly no power whatsoever, which is an organization which has supported Imperialist wars since its creation…you are a Utopianist. A build-up of defense against Imperialists is a must.

you don&#39;t know how to play the media my man. or public opinion. do you knwo what would happen if someone attacked japan right now? even if it was the us, making it public that your constitution forbids you from attacking other countries means a get out of jail free card. and if they do attack you, it&#39;s vietnam times 50. a collapse of their state, and a defeat in battle.


Agree.

Although, all of these “free” things would obviously depend on if you are a contributor to the socialist state. Laziness will not be rewarded.

I said later on that you need to participate of course to get the free stuff.


This is not on the menu for a surviving socialist state surrounded by Imperialists. This may come in the distant future, at this time, we would be good to avoid famine and war.

you of course missed the point of the electric cars. they would be cheap-ass little cars with hydrogen engines, I didn&#39;t mean electric. but anyways, you save the environment and get to sell the parts and make money. subsidized cars, means you don&#39;t lose money getting them the car, just make it as cheap as a normal one.


Technology was massively built up under the Five-Year Plans, we should most definitely not wait this long to industrialize, we would be crushed.

I didn&#39;t say I don&#39;t want a build up of tech at the beginning, I said the shift in tech should now be on reducing man-labour so we can cut down the work-week.


This is not possible unless the whole of the world, or a vast majority, is socialist. As RAF has said, the world would be majority capitalist, so you would have to adhere to their values on goods.

I disagree. some of those workers will be working... for free, on exports. and those exports would bring in some of that cash needed in the global system to bring in imports of anything needed. but anything inside is self-sustained. of course mcdonald&#39;s can&#39;t setup shop, because we can&#39;t pay them. the government would handle all imports and dealings in trade and capitalism


Remember, we want to set an example. this more peaceful one would work, though the later parts (notice I already said 50 to 100 years) are more dreamy and difficult, and would have an IMMEDIATE, TANGIBLE impact and improvement on human life. While the leninist model asks you to suffer first, causing more resistance at precisely the most critical stage of socialism, its birth.

[elijahcraig]

just as they have purposely been misled and miseducated by the capitalist, so will they be misled and miseducated by the leninist.

^There’s an insult for you bucko&#33;


first, I am not lazy, what I meant by leninism being complicated is that complicated change doesn&#39;t work. it fails halfway through the process. I wasn&#39;t saying economics should be simple, I was saying that adding to it killing and arresting and annihalating people, juggling that with keeping people believing in the system as 10% of the population disappears with no trace isn&#39;t gonna be the easiest thing. better put, it&#39;s dumb and unnecessary and will get you overthrown.

Under Stalin, millions did not die. You have to remember though, Hitler’s Fifth Column was infiltrating governments all over Europe. Plus the Imperialists as well. Hell, the two leading theoriticians admitted to planning to violently overthrowing the socialist state. Stalin’s best friend, or one of, had just been assassinated by a nazi&#33;

Engels said, revolution was the most “authoritative” act there is. If you think you can get through this without a few scars and scratches, you are in fact a utopianist.


next, you don&#39;t know how to play the media my man. or public opinion. do you knwo what would happen if someone attacked japan right now? even if it was the us, making it public that your constitution forbids you from attacking other countries means a get out of jail free card. and if they do attack you, it&#39;s vietnam times 50. a collapse of their state, and a defeat in battle.

What does this have anything to do with this debate? I was referring to defense if you mean the military build-up.


next you of course missed the point of the electric cars. they would be cheap-ass little cars with hydrogen engines, I didn&#39;t mean electric. but anyways, you save the environment and get to sell the parts and make money. subsidized cars, means you don&#39;t lose money getting them the car, just make it as cheap as a normal one.

I see nothing wrong with this. If it is possible at a certain time, ok; if not, then we have to work around it.



next I didn&#39;t say I don&#39;t want a build up of tech at the beginning, I said the shift in tech should now be on reducing man-labour so we can cut down the work-week.

If you don’t industrialize, you will be destroyed.



next... I disagree. some of those workers will be working... for free, on exports. and those exports would bring in some of that cash needed in the global system to bring in imports of anything needed. but anything inside is self-sustained. of course mcdonald&#39;s can&#39;t setup shop, because we can&#39;t pay them. the government would handle all imports and dealings in trade and capitalism

Ok. I don’t know which part of my reply you are referring to. But from what you said, it is ok. For free? I don’t agree on that part.



Remember, we want to set an example. this more peaceful one would work, though the later parts (notice I already said 50 to 100 years) are more dreamy and difficult, and would have an IMMEDIATE, TANGIBLE impact and improvement on human life. While the leninist model asks you to suffer first, causing more resistance at precisely the most critical stage of socialism, its birth.

Peasants had collectivized on their own at a rate of 60% at a time when Stalin had estimated 20%. That is Leninism. Poor people collectivizing to ensure the socialist survival. The only harm to “peace” is the upper classes, such as the Kulaks, starting violent wars, etc. Remember, the poor peasants tried to collectivize all the way, and the Kulaks burnt their land, slaughtered all of their animals, and started a civil war. The poor peasants began a war on them as well. Then Stalin, acting in their image, declared war on the kulaks.

[Vinny Rafarino]

first, I am not lazy, what I meant by leninism being complicated is that complicated change doesn&#39;t work. it fails halfway through the process. I wasn&#39;t saying economics should be simple, I was saying that adding to it killing and arresting and annihalating people, juggling that with keeping people believing in the system as 10% of the population disappears with no trace isn&#39;t gonna be the easiest thing. better put, it&#39;s dumb and unnecessary and will get you overthrown. second, marx meant education, not RE-education. you can&#39;t force people to change their minds, RAF was implying you can.



Don&#39;t be naive CyM, of course you can force people to change their minds. It&#39;s called social programming or, brainwashing. It&#39;s tried and true.

[Guest1]

sorry, I added the quotes from your post, reread my post, it&#39;ll be clearer now, then edit yours. I&#39;l read it tomorrow, it&#39;s like 1:38 am. peace comrade, and stop calling me a utopian. this is just my ideal. and I see it as much more grounded in reality than the "let&#39;s give this guy all the power and hope he gives it back nicely without being corrupted by this power. you know what, let&#39;s even let him kill opponents while we&#39;re at it".


and RAF, fuck, I don&#39;t mean it&#39;s not technically possible. what I mean is that it&#39;s a rediculius way to achieve freedom. read the line I wrote:

The People are like a beautiful woman. You can either rape her madly and lose her beauty forever, or you can woo her with honey and flowers and enjoy her beauty again and again.

it&#39;s not that hard to be a suave guy you know, and it works better :rolleyes:

[elijahcraig]

RAF,

How do you go about brainwashing someone? Do you mean just teaching from a proletarian point of view? I don&#39;t understand exactly what you mean by the term.

Che y Marijuana,

My post fits close enough; I don&#39;t feel like editing it.

I have never advocated dictatorships by one man CheYM, and you saying that is nonsense. I call you a utopian because you assume things will fall into place so easily, when history proves it does nothing but the opposite.

[Vinny Rafarino]

"let&#39;s give this guy all the power and hope he gives it back nicely without being corrupted by this power. you know what, let&#39;s even let him kill opponents while we&#39;re at it".




No kiddding. Communists don&#39;t want that either as it is called fascism. So I&#39;m not sure where you are coming from mate.

[Vinny Rafarino]

RAF,

How do you go about brainwashing someone? Do you mean just teaching from a proletarian point of view? I don&#39;t understand exactly what you mean by the term.




Feom the idividual standpoint, there are many ways to accomplish this. I really don&#39;t care about the individual aspects of social programming. I also will not go into the dynamics of popular social programming on this forum. Too many witch hunters here.

[elijahcraig]

You could always send me a PM.

Are you using "re-education" in the way Mao Zedong did?

[Guest1]

giving the state the power to kill, and be unaccountable. two dangerous combinations that make life hell for the lower class. creating a new elite is rediculous.

next, elijah, while it hasn&#39;t been easy, it&#39;s been shown that democratic, peaceful institutions based on civic duty and mutual aid are much more succesfull. Rome lasted as a democracy that valued freedom (to an extent) only as long as it was peaceful, then began its decline into empire. the same happened with Athens before it, and I&#39;m afraid, the USSR after it.

[elijahcraig]

giving the state the power to kill, and be unaccountable. two dangerous combinations that make life hell for the lower class. creating a new elite is rediculous.

Considering the lower class under socialism is the bourgeoisie, it is not “rediculous”. That’s called the dictatorship of the proletariat, they are the state.


next, elijah, while it hasn&#39;t been easy, it&#39;s been shown that democratic, peaceful institutions based on civic duty and mutual aid are much more succesfull. Rome lasted as a democracy that valued freedom (to an extent) only as long as it was peaceful, then began its decline into empire. the same happened with Athens before it, and I&#39;m afraid, the USSR after it.

Empire had nothing to do with the downfall of the USSR. The emergence of the bourgeoisie in the party through Khruschev did this.

There is no such thing as “peace” when freedom does not exist. The proletariat must strike down with all of its power on bourgeoisie membranes of the society.

[Vinny Rafarino]

Comrade Craig, we will talk about it on ISF or something.


CyM,

Do you really think you should use Rome as an example being that you&#39;re a pacifist?

[Guest1]

RAF, I was using it as an example of the downfall of societies. each one of those three began with a peaceful, democratic government (at least as much as could be expected at the time). each one was based on mutual aid and civic duty and freedom and all these wonderful ideas. then began the descent, imperialism. once that had taken root, the societies began to rot to the core. that is when rome turned into an utterly materialistic, despicable society, without the ideals of simple living and mutual aid. that is also when the USSR lost its respect for its ideals. only once that had happened could the bourgeoisie regain control through government infiltration.

get it?

one more thing, I&#39;m not a pacifist. not at all. I may consider myself a hippy, but I do fight back. just not where I know I would lose, or I think it can be avoided. and I think having an offensive army (I still believe in defensive guerrilla contingents) is unnecessary and avoidable.

[Vinny Rafarino]

get it?




:lol:

[elijahcraig]

Get this one&#33;


I may consider myself a hippy

Then shut the fuck up~&#33;

[Desert Fox]

Originally posted by [email protected] 13 2003, 01:32 AM
Get this one&#33;


I may consider myself a hippy

Then shut the fuck up~&#33;
Please, consider using a validate argument in a debate :P

[elijahcraig]

I&#39;m no trimdaddy, master.

[Guest1]

oh no... I&#39;m a peaceful person that doesn&#39;t believe in killing people if it can be avoided&#33; oh the horror&#33; my arguments must be not worth answering.

then again... maybe you just can&#39;t answer with your lack of knowledge.

[elijahcraig]

It has nothing to do with that ChyM, it has to do with your Owen-like "plan". THAT is utopian socialism.

[Guest1]

I already said, it is not a plan, it&#39;s just what I think is the easiest dream to reach a dream. I don&#39;t think it&#39;ll happen that way, there will be many, many problems, but I think it&#39;s more likely than "reprogramming" an entire fucking population. not to mention more human.

one more thing, read some owen. you seem to have no fucking idea what his plan was, or his attempt. or else you wouldn&#39;t compare this to it. I&#39;m quite a bit less fanciful.

[elijahcraig]

I already said, it is not a plan,

Are you contradicting yourself:


it&#39;s just what I think is the easiest dream to reach a dream.

?




one more thing, read some owen. you seem to have no fucking idea what his plan was, or his attempt. or else you wouldn&#39;t compare this to it. I&#39;m quite a bit less fanciful.

I didn’t say it was comparable to his actual “plan”, but to the way in which utopian socialists map out societies.

[Guest1]

dream to reach a dream, because the very idea of figuring out how to get there is a dream, it&#39;s never gonna happen. you just have to kinda wing it. the reason I prefer my way to RAF&#39;s is that mine lets you wing it, it is flexible, an "organic, free moving" state. where as "reprogramming" people and centralizing power makes it into a "rusty hunk of metal" state.

now when it comes to the utopian crap. I&#39;m not a utopian. I am a realist. I don&#39;t think we can all live happily ever-after, but I also know that people will not wait while you kill them. you decrease resistance by decreasing friction.

and you can stop trying to belittle my arguments through name-calling. socialism requires maturity.

[elijahcraig]

dream to reach a dream, because the very idea of figuring out how to get there is a dream, it&#39;s never gonna happen. you just have to kinda wing it. the reason I prefer my way to RAF&#39;s is that mine lets you wing it, it is flexible, an "organic, free moving" state. where as "reprogramming" people and centralizing power makes it into a "rusty hunk of metal" state.

We need a red fortress to defeat capitalism, not a meadow with drunken hicks stumbling around mindlessly, and organically.


now when it comes to the utopian crap. I&#39;m not a utopian. I am a realist. I don&#39;t think we can all live happily ever-after, but I also know that people will not wait while you kill them. you decrease resistance by decreasing friction.

Your non-realistic way of analyzing economics is key, you have some that are good, but others need more “realizing”. Meaning, less utopian in plan.

[Guest1]

FUCK, STOP CATEGORIZING ME

I&#39;m not a fucking utopian, I never said anything about drunken hicks running around. You fucking ignored what I said about creating guerrilla contingents to protect the country. Cheap guerrilla contingents, small guerrilla contingents that would be the only way to fuck up the US military. Just no fucking aggressive military. And no fucking disappearances. And no fucking secret police killing Anarchists and any true Communists who know the country is ruled by pigs who took advantage of the popularity of "the revolution" for their own reasons.

EITHER ANSWER ME STRAIGHT OR FUCK OFF

[Vinny Rafarino]

That&#39;s a whole lot of fucks and big bold letters. That should work like a dandy.

[Guest1]

The message that I&#39;m not some pussy-ass utopian should get through now, eh? :D

[elijahcraig]

You don’t have to be a pussy to be a utopian socialist, you just have to abandon science.

[Guest1]

I&#39;m no utopian, but it&#39;s better than abandoning science for distopia.

[elijahcraig]

Science leads you one way, utopianism leads you to the other. There is no such thing as “Dysptopian Socialism.”

[Vinny Rafarino]

I already said, it is not a plan, it&#39;s just what I think is the easiest dream to reach a dream. I don&#39;t think it&#39;ll happen that way, there will be many, many problems, but I think it&#39;s more likely than "reprogramming" an entire fucking population. not to mention more human.

one more thing, read some owen. you seem to have no fucking idea what his plan was, or his attempt. or else you wouldn&#39;t compare this to it. I&#39;m quite a bit less fanciful.

You may consider yourself a "realist" however there is nothing "real" in your ideology. REprogramming the population is precisely what is needed to take the human race through the next stage of psychological and sociological development. Marx wrote it, Lenin wrote it, Guevara wrote it.

Man if left to his own devices without being properly advanced into the new model of socialist man will still hold value to he same principles and ideologies that makes capitalism so attractive to him. These key principles that not just turn man away from communism but also make him fight will barbaric fervor againt it are excessive materialism and greed.

Hoping these traits will "vanish" on their own is quite simply naive utopianism, and it is inherently devastating to socialism and the progress of human development.

You cannot change an entire political and economic platform that structures itself around an elightened ideology without also changing the people&#39;s ideology into a similar enlightened state. Especially when the ideology that governs present man is the collapsing force behind the ideals of socialism.

Now that&#39;s reality CyM.

[the SovieT]

about the thread..

yes Fascism is indeed a joke..
a lame one if you want my opinion..

its particulary funny to see how Fascism, who is infinitly bonded with the Church and all forms of conservatism and all that crap has still so many adepts nowdays..

now i was thinking the other day "why is taht?"

so i came to a pretty simple conclusion, the reason why Fascism is so usual is becuase it is bonded with one thing that has always gave so many people strenght..
hatred
yes, it´s basicly all about hatred, hatred either for a minority, for not such a minority in case of nazism ;) , or for a ideology, Communism..
Fascism is particulary pathetic because it allegedally wants to change things radically, but yet fails to change the most urgent and primal thing, the means of productions, those, in fact change, but to worse..
i remember you that under fascism, the syndicates and all other forms of worker unity is destroyed via force, the colectivizion of the means of production or any atempt to is totally destroyed, natinal main industrys are either on the hands of a duzen of rich failys, or at the hands of a duzen of international companys...
landlords, are free to opress the peasents and farmers as they wish, sometimes forcing the to work form rise to night (being that working as soon as the first sun rays apear and only return at night) (this is a particulary hard job, during the Portuguese fascist times, before the mass protests and strikes that finally implemented the 8 hour of labor per day law, check this video about PCP´s struggle to end this nightmare and then the peoples victory against such barbarity http://comunismo.reallyrules.com try also http://ebserver2.no-ip.org/8horas.zip in case the first link doesnt work... the documentary is in Portuguese, but if you look with atention to the people´s face, theyr tears and sorrow as they talk about what it was to work from rise to night, and theyr happines tears when they talk about the time they finally achieved theyr 8 hours work day.. that will give you a hint about exploitation)
then there is another problem, imperialism, colonialism.. all this is expecially evident on fascist regyms, and all this opres even the "motherland" people, this because they see theyr youth being dragged to unfair and stupid colonial wars, forcing them to fight what should be theyr allies in thise fight against capitalism...

therefore its not hard to figure that fascism benefits a scarce minority, top bourgeoise, generals, international companys....

but then again, WHY? why do the people allow this to happen?
why does the popular masses allow such barbarity and stupidity to happen?
fascism catches the people in starving times, big recessions make people doubt the liberal democrato-capitalist system..
it makes them want more, power, riches, golden days of pride and greatness... but they ALWAYS find themselfs in a worse situation.. if the current liberal capitalist system fails to futhfill the people´s needs and desires, then fascism never intents to futhfill them..
it can never sactisfy nor futhfill the peoples needs, because it siply does not want to..

in resume fascism is fairly easy to be implemented...
just spread havoc and lies..
blame it all on the communists..
the niggers..
the jews..
the immigrants....
say that immigrants only bring problems and your nation is for the "natives"...

use the people´s furstrations and turn it into pure hatred...




concluding fascism is a plague..
a fine product of capitalism..
the most extreme and barbaric product of capitalism, it serves all of the ruling classes needs and desires.. it actually has all capitalist fundamental laws.. and worse it "amplyfies" them.. turns them stupidly evident...

its not hard to understand the urge to smash fascism..

so take a very "redskinesque" atitude against fascism..

SMASH FASCISM&#33; ERASE ALL FORMS OF FASCISM AND CAPITALISM FROM THE SURFACE OF THE EARTH&#33;

[Guest1]

RAF, I don&#39;t kid myself. I know we must work to educate the people. But that is work that must be done before the revolution, and it is not done through "reprogramming" or "brainwashing".

that won&#39;t work. and if you have to resort to it, you didn&#39;t do your homework before the revolution.

[Vinny Rafarino]

We are not talking abut education. We are talking about destroying the very ideology that makes human beings gravitate towards capitalism. This is a process that will take several generations to complete, and if you don&#39;t complete the process, you will never have communism. We are not talking about "educating" ignorant masses, we are talking about changing the very psychology of an entire species. If you consider that to be mere "homework" than I fear you cannot be helped.

You are making something very complex into something overly-simplified just to give your argument merit. I&#39;m sorry friend, but this is a foolish and incredibly dangerous avenue to take.

[elijahcraig]

RAF, you should make a thread on "brainwashing" on ISF.

[caliban]

See what happens RAF when people say "re-educate" :lol: :lol:
I couldn&#39;t agree more. Things have to get worse before they get better. The ropes that people cling to are the ones that will hang them. You can&#39;t expect people to just come over to your camp CM, you must make them want to because they believe that it is the best way.
THAT&#39;S IT&#33;&#33;&#33; We must build the communal bong so that all will live (cough) in harmony. Long live the "flame" of peace&#33;&#33;&#33; :lol: :lol:

[dancingoutlaw]

You don’t have to be a pussy to be a utopian socialist, you just have to abandon science.

ElijahCraig, What science do you speak of?

[Vinny Rafarino]

Originally posted by [email protected] 15 2003, 03:14 AM
RAF, you should make a thread on "brainwashing" on ISF.
I did comrade.


Outlaw,


Science by it&#39;s own definition is what he is talking about. What particular sub-group of science is irrelevant.

[dancingoutlaw]

Comrade RAF, I was not talking of a particular sub-group. I was wondering where science comes into play here.

[Vinny Rafarino]

No you weren&#39;t. Your original post is only three up from here mate. You said "ElijahCraig, What science do you speak of?"

Your question is what is is mate. Let&#39;s not argue about it.

[Desert Fox]

Originally posted by the [email protected] 15 2003, 01:25 AM
SMASH FASCISM&#33; ERASE ALL FORMS OF FASCISM AND CAPITALISM FROM THE SURFACE OF THE EARTH&#33;
That is rather extreme ...

[the SovieT]

not extreme...
Necessary

[elijahcraig]

Outlaw, you should know what I mean. Scientific socialism vs. Utopian socialism.

[Guest1]

You mean, Distopian, not Scientific.

I don&#39;t see mass brainwashing as Scientific. In fact, I&#39;m not so sure I see it as Communism.

[Vinny Rafarino]

That&#39;s because it&#39;s not communism. Why is this topic always right on the tip of everyone&#39;s tongue? Communism is MANY generations away. I went to have a piss and noticed my face had turned blue. I wonder if it&#39;s even notable to bother?

[Guest1]

Sorry, socialism. that was a mistake.

But I still don&#39;t know if I&#39;m comfortable calling it socialism. this is a pretty advanced form of dictatorship I&#39;m seeing here. suffocation of the human spirit to free will is what it is. what&#39;s the point?

[elijahcraig]

I don’t personally like RAF’s idea of “brainwashing”. Dystopian? What the hell are you talking about?

[dancingoutlaw]

What makes Scientific Socialism in essence considered scientific? I do not understand how a theory of how society should be ordered would be considered "science" over and above all other theories of social order.

[elijahcraig]

Read “Socialism: Utopian and Scientific”. I think that’s the title, by Engels.

[Vinny Rafarino]

Originally posted by Che y [email protected] 16 2003, 02:53 AM
Sorry, socialism. that was a mistake.

But I still don&#39;t know if I&#39;m comfortable calling it socialism. this is a pretty advanced form of dictatorship I&#39;m seeing here. suffocation of the human spirit to free will is what it is. what&#39;s the point?
The point is without the elimination of the bourgeois ideology, you will never be able to complete the cycle to communism. Where their lies greed, political corruption, excessive materialisve, oppressive class structures, etc. there can never exist communism. The bourgeoisie will not simply "vanish into the night", they will fight until they are no more.

I find it odd that so many "lefties" would care so much about the bourgeois class after so many years of oppression. I reckon it&#39;s once again the difference beween utopianism and practicality. Life is not fair nor sweet, and those same people whom you argue so adamantly for now will twist a knife into your ribs the first chance they get. The sooner you understand this, the better off the movement is.

[elijahcraig]

Is that not why it is gradual? Look at the DPRK, the people are obsessed with working for their socialist society. They were never brainwashed in the manner you speak of, they were educated to the fullest in a Marxist manner.

[Loknar]

No matter what you guys do you will never be able to destroy an ideology.

[elijahcraig]

When morons attempt to make profound statements, it turns out something like Loknar’s last post.

[Vinny Rafarino]

That is completely inaccurate Loknar.


Comrade Elijah,


You honestly think that the people of the DPRK were no subjected to massive propagandic manipulation by the government? Do you think their was not extreme suppression of the former ruling class in the DPRK?

I would have to say that the DPRK&#39;s psychopolitical programme was among the largest ever produced.

[Loknar]

Originally posted by [email protected] 16 2003, 04:30 AM
When morons attempt to make profound statements, it turns out something like Loknar’s last post.
No, what I have stated is ANCIENT knowledge.

[elijahcraig]

You honestly think that the people of the DPRK were no subjected to massive propagandic manipulation by the government? Do you think their was not extreme suppression of the former ruling class in the DPRK?

I didn’t say that. I agree with all you’ve said above.

The link you provided on ISF was not what you just stated though, it was a little different as Huzington, I think, showed.


I would have to say that the DPRK&#39;s psychopolitical programme was among the largest ever produced.

I see nothing wrong with having massive propaganda and promotion of the socialist state.

Loknar, do they call you Mr. Penis Tracy back at home?

[Vinny Rafarino]

Originally posted by [email protected] 16 2003, 04:50 AM

You honestly think that the people of the DPRK were no subjected to massive propagandic manipulation by the government? Do you think their was not extreme suppression of the former ruling class in the DPRK?

I didn’t say that. I agree with all you’ve said above.

The link you provided on ISF was not what you just stated though, it was a little different as Huzington, I think, showed.


I would have to say that the DPRK&#39;s psychopolitical programme was among the largest ever produced.

I see nothing wrong with having massive propaganda and promotion of the socialist state.

Loknar, do they call you Mr. Penis Tracy back at home?
Huzington showed nothing besides the fact that the author of the opening "editorial" is a nutty christian fundamentalist, this I already knew. I don&#39;t put any mind to "editorials" and neither should you. Check back on my reply there comrade.


Did you read the ENTIRE BOOK?

[dancingoutlaw]

Read “Socialism: Utopian and Scientific”. I think that’s the title, by Engels.

I have, it seems to be based more on the discussion of philosophy than science. Invoking Hegel and throwing in something about marriage being legalized prostitution does not make science. Laying out a theory on how revolution will occur is not science, it is conjecture. Listing the many ways that the proletariat screw the working class is not science, it is criticism. So please, tell me, what exactly makes Scientific socialism scientific? How does this modifier seperate it from the Utopian brand in which the end result are of the same desire? Why is one "Science" and the other fantasy?

[elijahcraig]

RAF,

I replied on ISF to your post.



Outlaw, I can’t make you happy with a reply, the best I can provide is the founder of my theorems explaining it. He also does so in The Manifesto.

[Comrade Ceausescu]

Listing the many ways that the proletariat screw the working class is not science, it is criticism

:lol: the proletariat and the working class are the same thing genius.

[Guest1]

distopian is the opposite of utopian. it is a fantasy of misery. 1984 was a distopia. so is your socialism of zombies.

I don&#39;t believe the bourgeoisie will "just go away". but I don&#39;t believe in brainwashing. Cuba never needed brainwashing. Even if they aren&#39;t the most clean government, they rely on basic propaganda and education, not mass brainwashing. for socialism to work, people must have free will and the ability to use it. they must get involved in the system and challenge the government&#39;s actions to ensure that it doesn&#39;t go the way of the USSR or China. You eliminate that completely. I promise you, if I was ever caught in your distopia, I would give my life to smash it.

[dancingoutlaw]

the proletariat and the working class are the same thing genius.

cheguevara717, you are right. Forgive me, I of course meant bourgeois.

[Desert Fox]

Originally posted by the [email protected] 15 2003, 07:42 PM
not extreme...
Necessary
Well, I think it is Necessary for one country = one language ;)

[elijahcraig]

distopian is the opposite of utopian. it is a fantasy of misery. 1984 was a distopia. so is your socialism of zombies.

Things for the course, “chief.”


I would give my life to smash it.

The lunatic has gone off the charts.

[dancingoutlaw]

Outlaw, I can’t make you happy with a reply, the best I can provide is the founder of my theorems explaining it. He also does so in The Manifesto.

If you cannot explain it yourself then how do you know you are right? If you are trying to launch a revolution you had better be able to communicate these ideas yourself instead of refering to the Communist Manifesto like some bible to be quoted. I just want to know what your argument is that scientific socialism is indeed science while utopian socialism is fantasy. What is the force and dynamics that seperate the two?

Respectfully yours

[elijahcraig]

If you cannot explain it yourself then how do you know you are right?

I would explain it how Engels and Marx did, this is not an opinionated subject. If you can’t grasp it, I am truly sorry.


If you are trying to launch a revolution you had better be able to communicate these ideas yourself instead of refering to the Communist Manifesto like some bible to be quoted.

It’s the easiest way to clear this up. I would surely not be as good as communicator as Marx or Engels themselves.


I just want to know what your argument is that scientific socialism is indeed science while utopian socialism is fantasy. What is the force and dynamics that seperate the two?

Scientific socialism (for one main reason) considers economic laws independent of the will of man, meaning objective, and unchangeable. Utopian socialists believe they can change the laws, whether they admit it or not.

[Guest1]

there are laws of production. but there is no such thing as laws of distribution. you must admit that to be a socialist. now that we&#39;ve gotten that done with, nothing I said was in anyway different economically. we disagree over the way the revolution should occur, and what kind of ideals the government should have.

strawman tactics...

[elijahcraig]

there are laws of production. but there is no such thing as laws of distribution. you must admit that to be a socialist.

Once again, thanks for that , “chief”.


now that we&#39;ve gotten that done with, nothing I said was in anyway different economically. we disagree over the way the revolution should occur, and what kind of ideals the government should have.

I named ONE main difference between the two. You indeed are bypassing and wanting to transform and abolish economic laws if you are an anarchist, as you have stated.

[dancingoutlaw]

Elijahcraig, I do grasp what Marx and Engels wrote. I do not agree with the assumption that it is indeed science.


Scientific socialism (for one main reason) considers economic laws independent of the will of man, meaning objective, and unchangeable. Utopian socialists believe they can change the laws, whether they admit it or not.

That was not a bad explaination. But I would throw this question to you. If economic laws are independent of the will of man, then how would a fully communist society exist without a conscious effort, through revolution, to change the "economy" to a stateless, moneyless society?

[elijahcraig]

That was not a bad explaination. But I would throw this question to you. If economic laws are independent of the will of man, then how would a fully communist society exist without a conscious effort, through revolution, to change the "economy" to a stateless, moneyless society?

The laws are not stagnant, they are dialectical. Not until the time has come which produces communism through socialism can the stateless communism be mastered. Until then, the goal is to learn, study, and master in the bests interests of society the laws of economics. Read “Economic Problems of Socialism in the USSR” by JV Stalin for a very good explanation of this.

[Guest1]

You are mistaken, I never said I was an Anarchist, I said I was ALMOST an Anarchist. But that was referring to the extent to which I believe in liberty. That was in the context of the political compass test.

I would ask you to stop calling me chief, but it&#39;s better than bourgeois utopian :D

[elijahcraig]

You are mistaken, I never said I was an Anarchist, I said I was ALMOST an Anarchist. But that was referring to the extent to which I believe in liberty. That was in the context of the political compass test.

OK


I would ask you to stop calling me chief, but it&#39;s better than bourgeois utopian

Chief, I can’t do it. And I’ll tell you why.

[Guest1]

go on...

[elijahcraig]

Chichen..

http://www.tyson.com/chicken/classroom/images/thigh1.jpg

Old...but classic nonetheless.