Can we basically relate anything bad to Capitalism? [Archive]

Broletariat

28th January 2011, 15:53

No. A lot of social problems in society, indeed most of them stem from capitalism, but some bad things will always happen, capitalism or not. (Breaking up with your boyfriend, insane murders, breaking your leg, etc)
Personal relationship problems I can see as not being caused by Capitalism. Murders on the other hand, the Capitalist justice system being what it is, probably makes it relatively worse than would be under Communism. As for breaking your leg, that's made worse with Capitalism due to our wonderful healthcare systems.

A lot of things can be directly or indirectly caused or affected by capitalism (unemployment, crime, gangs, fraud, pollution, robbery, etc.) However, I don't see things like pedophilia as one of them. Dumbasses are dumbasses.
I'll relate the pedophilia thing back to the insane murders thing. I do realise that's a bit of a stretch though.

Rafiq

28th January 2011, 16:20

I don't think Pedophilia is inherit from Capitalism, but I do think that a lot less of it can occur under Communism .

Social problems will be a lot better, with very little crime.

But, murder will probably exist, but small, and yes, Social problems personally involving your peers will always exist.

Quail

28th January 2011, 17:26

I think that the way pedophiles are demonised in our current society really doesn't help either them or the rate of child abuse.

Catmatic Leftist

28th January 2011, 17:30

Even a lot of romantic relationships will be better; couples won't fight over money.

However, I still think we'd see hints of partisan politics. There will still be M-L's and Anarchists fighting. Kind of like the Labor/Conservative parties and the Democratic/Republican parties.

ckaihatsu

28th January 2011, 17:46

Lies. When there's communism nobody will ever break their leg again.

'Cause we'll all have super-bionic prosthetic implants. Duh.

Nothing Human Is Alien

28th January 2011, 18:52

Personal relationship problems I can see as not being caused by Capitalism.

A lot of those problems are based in jealously (which itself is based on the concept of private property*), trying to force real human relations into social constructions, trying to follow the dictates of religion, etc.

* "The jealous person is in want of a slave; he can be in love, but this love is only a feeling of luxuriating in jealousy; the jealous person is above all a private-property owner." - Marx

ckaihatsu

28th January 2011, 19:16

A lot of those problems are based in jealously (which itself is based on the concept of private property*), trying to force real human relations into social constructions, trying to follow the dictates of religion, etc.

* "The jealous person is in want of a slave; he can be in love, but this love is only a feeling of luxuriating in jealousy; the jealous person is above all a private-property owner." - Marx

There *is* such a thing as a sense of loss, or anxiety regarding possible loss, without objectifying the other person.

gorillafuck

28th January 2011, 20:23

A lot of those problems are based in jealously (which itself is based on the concept of private property*),
When someone is jealous of a person they want to be with being with someone else, it's not based in private property.

Nothing Human Is Alien

28th January 2011, 21:12

What is it based on?

Tablo

28th January 2011, 21:27

What is it based on?
Instinct, unfortunately.

gorillafuck

28th January 2011, 22:48

What is it based on?
Sexual desire, romantic desire, denied or suppressed affection, etc.

Also, that's hardly an argument for it being based on private property anyway.

Unless romantic love and similar concepts, such as friendship, are "private property" to you. Which sounds like a parody of a leftist.

ʇsıɥɔɹɐuɐ ıɯɐbıɹo

28th January 2011, 23:23

You can do anything with capitalism, doesn't make it true. I mean, for god sakes correlation doesn't always equal causation and if you want to make capitalism look bad, just find a way to make money in decrying capitalism! It will be hypocritical yes, but damn it you've got to get down and dirty with capitalism if you want to make it look dirty too! :cool:

Quail

28th January 2011, 23:49

Tablo

28th January 2011, 23:50

Is my brain utterly fried from revision or does this make very little sense?
I'm confused too.

Il Medico

29th January 2011, 00:09

Murders on the other hand, the Capitalist justice system being what it is, probably makes it relatively worse than would be under Communism.
.
Murders will be much less, but you'll always have psychos, hence the 'insane' part of my comment. Most murders aren't those type of things.

ckaihatsu

29th January 2011, 00:16

Can we basically relate anything bad to Capitalism?

So, uh... can we now? (looks around)

= )

Can we basically relate anything bad to Capitalism?

If you want to get any kind of "rev cred" you're going to have to.

Can we basically relate anything bad to Capitalism?

Yes, but only if you have the mental agility and poker face of a lawyer.

Can we basically relate anything bad to Capitalism?

Hey, look, *no one* is stopping you, okay? Go nuts...!

Nothing Human Is Alien

29th January 2011, 00:18

Instinct, unfortunately.

Ah the old human nature argument :rolleyes:

I guess all the societies in which monogamous sexual relations were absent didn't get the memo.\

Monogamy isn't "nature" in humans or animals. See Engel's "Origins of the Family, Private Property, and the State (http://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1884/origin-family/index.htm)." Or even the recent 'popular science' book "The Myth of Monogamy" by David Barash and Judith Lipton.

Tablo

29th January 2011, 00:20

Ah the old human nature argument :rolleyes:

I guess all the societies in which monogamous sexual relations were absent didn't get the memo.
Lol, no. To act in jealousy and protect your "mate" is instinctual. I'm not saying it is natural for us to mate for eternity and never fuck around.

Don't put words in my mouth. >.>

Nothing Human Is Alien

29th January 2011, 00:32

Sexual desire, romantic desire, denied or suppressed affection, etc.

Being sexually attracted to someone and wanting to spend time with someone are different questions from jealousy, trying to control people, domestic abuse, trying to maintain a 'traditional' marriage, etc.

"Assume man to be man and his relationship to the world to be a human one: then you can exchange love only for love, trust for trust, etc. If you want to enjoy art, you must be an artistically cultivated person; if you want to exercise influence over other people, you must be a person with a stimulating and encouraging effect on other people. Every one of your relations to man and to nature must be a specific expression, corresponding to the object of your will, of your real individual life. If you love without evoking love in return-that is, if your loving as loving does not produce reciprocal love; if through a living expression of yourself as a loving person you do not make yourself a loved person, then your love is impotent-a misfortune." - Marx

Also, that's hardly an argument for it being based on private property anyway.

How can you "lose" something if you never possessed it begin with?

Unless romantic love and similar concepts, such as friendship, are "private property" to you.

Relations between humans are totally alienated because we live in a society which is based on private property. That's clearly demonstrated here... People actually believe jealousy is a "natural" part of "love."

Which sounds like a parody of a leftist.

That's funny. A lot of leftists sounds like straight out rightists on questions on like this.

Nothing Human Is Alien

29th January 2011, 00:34

Lol, no. To act in jealousy and protect your "mate" is instinctual. I'm not saying it is natural for us to mate for eternity and never fuck around.

Don't put words in my mouth. >.>

If it was an instinct that would mean it was a part of human nature.

instinct - An inborn pattern of behavior that is characteristic of a species.

Jealousy has nothing to do with "protecting" anyone btw. Jealousy is about keeping a person to yourself, excluding others from access to them... What does that remind you of?

gorillafuck

29th January 2011, 01:22

How can you "lose" something if you never possessed it begin with? Because love or affection is not a physical possession.

Monogamous love involves companionship with a specific person. If this is a private property relation, then tell me, in a hypothetical monogamous relationship between two people who treat eachother like equals, who is the property owner and who is the property? Because obviously for private property to occur you need to be able to identify the property.

Relations between humans are totally alienated because we live in a society which is based on private property. That's clearly demonstrated here... People actually believe jealousy is a "natural" part of "love."
It is a part of rejection, yes.

That's funny. A lot of leftists sounds like straight out rightists on questions on like this.Yeah I bet they hate gays too!

Kléber

29th January 2011, 01:42

Marriage comes from feudalism and slavery, but jealousy still exists in polyamorous/open relationships and free love communities, and it's not all because of the lingering or intrusive influence of capitalist property relations.

ʇsıɥɔɹɐuɐ ıɯɐbıɹo

29th January 2011, 02:20

Is my brain utterly fried from revision or does this make very little sense?

I'm confused too.

That is what the smiley is for. ;)

Broletariat

29th January 2011, 04:11

I didn't rlly want a serious thread guys, I was hoping this would somehow degenerate into more masturbation jokes or something.

gorillafuck

29th January 2011, 04:39

I didn't rlly want a serious thread guys, I was hoping this would somehow degenerate into more masturbation jokes or something.
Well I don't see why we would talk about a topic that will cease to exist once capitalism is abolished and society is organized along the lines of a giant orgy.

ckaihatsu

29th January 2011, 04:46

I didn't rlly want a serious thread guys, I was hoping this would somehow degenerate into more masturbation jokes or something.

The fact that this thread didn't actually degenerate further is because of capitalism.

ʇsıɥɔɹɐuɐ ıɯɐbıɹo

29th January 2011, 04:54

I didn't rlly want a serious thread guys, I was hoping this would somehow degenerate into more masturbation jokes or something.

Instead of masturbation jokes can we make a thread that begins with masturbation jokes and degenerates into a thread about capitalism being bad?

Nothing Human Is Alien

31st January 2011, 21:24

Because love or affection is not a physical possession.

What about swingers and people in open relationships? If jealousy is a "natural part" of love, how can people have loving relationships free of it?

Is love nonexistent in societies in which monogamy is not the social norm?

Monogamous love involves companionship with a specific person.

What is "monogamous love"?

If this is a private property relation, then tell me, in a hypothetical monogamous relationship between two people who treat eachother like equals, who is the property owner and who is the property? Because obviously for private property to occur you need to be able to identify the property.

First of all, I didn't say that any person was the private property of another. But ideas are a reflection of material reality, and in a society based on private property relations between people often reflect it.

Jealousy is social. It's not an instinctual part of being a human. If it were, things like open relationships could not exist (though of course even many of those are affected to some degree or another).

It is a part of rejection, yes.

Could you explain what jealousy has to do with rejection? And could you explain how people can be rejected without becoming jealous?

Yeah I bet they hate gays too!

No, they just want them to get married and start families.

Well I don't see why we would talk about a topic that will cease to exist once capitalism is abolished and society is organized along the lines of a giant orgy.

Thanks for that. I always appreciate discussing things like this with people who are this serious and principled.

Meridian

31st January 2011, 21:32

How can you "lose" something if you never possessed it begin with?
You are confusing two different ways of expression. You don't possess your grandparents. But, if they are still alive, you still have them. They are not in your possession or your property, but you may have them in your life. However, if they die, you lose them from your life.

ckaihatsu

31st January 2011, 22:07

Well I don't see why we would talk about a topic that will cease to exist once capitalism is abolished and society is organized along the lines of a giant orgy.

photo caption:

I supported the idea of a classless society until I found out what it really meant! : )

[photo of orgy]

tinyurl.com/4dpofpu

Nothing Human Is Alien

1st February 2011, 17:37

You are confusing two different ways of expression. You don't possess your grandparents. But, if they are still alive, you still have them. They are not in your possession or your property, but you may have them in your life. However, if they die, you lose them from your life.

Some people love their grandparents. It's not automatic. And it's not "romantic love" which is what's being discussed here. Do you have feelings of jealousy in your relations with your grandparents?

Meridian

1st February 2011, 17:52

Some people love their grandparents. It's not automatic. And it's not "romantic love" which is what's being discussed here. Do you have feelings of jealousy in your relations with your grandparents?
My grandparents are dead. However, it is conceivable that for example a child is jealous of the attention another person is receiving from their grandparent.

And you did not address the fact that you confused two different forms of expressions because of their superficial similarity; that we can say "to have someone" or "to lose someone" without it meaning or implying that the property of the person is the subject matter.

ckaihatsu

1st February 2011, 18:01

Well I don't see why we would talk about a topic that will cease to exist once capitalism is abolished and society is organized along the lines of a giant orgy.

So this extended pause means that, uh, no one's gonna make any jokes about "the means of production" -- ?

= D

Omi

1st February 2011, 19:20

capitalism is abolished and society is organized along the lines of a giant orgy.

Where do I sign up?

ckaihatsu

1st February 2011, 19:24

Where do I sign up?

Can we do some (un-)dress rehearsals for the revolution?

(Ouch.)

x D

Nothing Human Is Alien

1st February 2011, 19:39

Where do I sign up?

There are a number of leftist groups that do "horizontal recruitment." Some do group sex. Some do forced group sex.

Nothing Human Is Alien

1st February 2011, 19:46

And you did not address the fact that you confused two different forms of expressions because of their superficial similarity; that we can say "to have someone" or "to lose someone" without it meaning or implying that the property of the person is the subject matter.

"Loosing someone" to death is much different then ending a romantic or sexual relationship with them.

I can be sad if an ex-girlfriend dies without being upset and jealous if that same girlfriend has intimate relations with someone else while she's alive. They are two different questions.

If a public park was removed and replaced with a building, it would make sense if people that used it would be upset that it no longer existed. If a public park was being used by other people, it would not make sense for other patrons to be upset over it.

StalinFanboy

3rd February 2011, 00:53

tl;dr

I think a lot of nasty behavioral shit can be said to come from alienation, which is only intensified under capitalism.

ckaihatsu

3rd February 2011, 01:08

Some do group sex. Some do forced group sex.

The plain ol' vanilla group sex didn't work on you, huh?

x D

Angry Young Man

3rd February 2011, 04:32

No. A lot of social problems in society, indeed most of them stem from capitalism, but some bad things will always happen, capitalism or not. (Breaking up with your boyfriend, insane murders, breaking your leg, etc)

Breaking up a relationship could be because the necessary social education to deal with one-another has been hampered. Might sound tenuous, but I hear my next-door neighbours all the time. They'll have a row, he gives her a slap, turfs all her stuff out and in two days, they're back, watching Shameless

Insane murders: see the case of Raoul Moat, and the case of the Shannon Matthews phoney kidnapping. Capitalism causes poverty, poverty causes disease, physical and mental.

Breaking your leg: Ostensibly the phrase by which one wishes an actor luck. The legend runs that John Wilkes Booth jumped from the balcony after shooting Lincoln, landed on the stage and broke his leg. In fact, it is an expression of power over the actor, much like Nero having a male slave who resembled his late wife castrated. When capitalism dies, no actor will be at such mercy.