Are communists mistaken?

[Milk Sheikh]

Communists have the habit of seeing people as workers, capitalists etc. Problem is, workers don't see themselves as workers, so an appeal to the nonexistent 'working class' would have no value.

Mexican immigrants, gay workers, Muslim workers, women workers - all their demands are different from one another, so much so that one cannot establish a single, homogenous 'working class' program. The Mexican worker's demand may revolve around easing immigration controls, whereas a gay worker's demand may be an end to discrimination at the work place.

In this context, the term 'working class' makes little sense except as a vague and confusing abstraction. Workers are so different from each other that they're even willing to ignore what's common among them, namely their slavery to capital.

[Broletariat]

Yea, that's what the Capitalists do, try and divide us among national or ethnic or sexuality based boundaries. They do this so we cannot unite as workers to oppose them.

[RGacky3]

Problem is, workers don't see themselves as workers, so an appeal to the nonexistent 'working class' would have no value.


They do in the context of economics.



Mexican immigrants, gay workers, Muslim workers, women workers - all their demands are different from one another, so much so that one cannot establish a single, homogenous 'working class' program. The Mexican worker's demand may revolve around easing immigration controls, whereas a gay worker's demand may be an end to discrimination at the work place.


Of coarse but over all the end problem is the same, the ruling classes power.


In this context, the term 'working class' makes little sense except as a vague and confusing abstraction. Workers are so different from each other that they're even willing to ignore what's common among them, namely their slavery to capital.

Within the economic context THAT is what is important.

[red cat]

Communists have the habit of seeing people as workers, capitalists etc. Problem is, workers don't see themselves as workers, so an appeal to the nonexistent 'working class' would have no value.

Mexican immigrants, gay workers, Muslim workers, women workers - all their demands are different from one another, so much so that one cannot establish a single, homogenous 'working class' program. The Mexican worker's demand may revolve around easing immigration controls, whereas a gay worker's demand may be an end to discrimination at the work place.

In this context, the term 'working class' makes little sense except as a vague and confusing abstraction. Workers are so different from each other that they're even willing to ignore what's common among them, namely their slavery to capital.

What you are talking about are immediate demands. The ultimate demands of all portions of the working class are the same. Successful communist movements do not establish a homogeneous working class program in the beginning but start organizing different categories of workers through struggles concerning their immediate demands. As class struggle intensifies, the primary contradiction between the proletariat and bourgeoisie becomes more visible as many of its disguised forms are eliminated. It is under these circumstances that the working class starts acting as a unified body against the bourgeoisie.

[Bud Struggle]

Communists have the habit of seeing people as workers, capitalists etc. Problem is, workers don't see themselves as workers, so an appeal to the nonexistent 'working class' would have no value. Well yes people are all of those things but on the list of the top ten thing of how people think of themselves those things come in at number eleven. That's why "Middle Class" works so well--it means "I don't want to bother thinking about things like that." In that way people--at least in the first world can go about whatever it is that is the real business of their lives.


Mexican immigrants, gay workers, Muslim workers, women workers - all their demands are different from one another, so much so that one cannot establish a single, homogenous 'working class' program. The Mexican worker's demand may revolve around easing immigration controls, whereas a gay worker's demand may be an end to discrimination at the work place. And that's where Capitalism has done a good job. For 95% of the First World life is pretty good. Most of their basic needs are met and they problems of the general Class Struggle have been atomized into more micro struggles that are their real concern. Being gay in a straight society (for example) is a much more personal and close thing to a gay person's heart than some sort of abstract ""Worker"s Struggle."


In this context, the term 'working class' makes little sense except as a vague and confusing abstraction. Workers are so different from each other that they're even willing to ignore what's common among them, namely their slavery to capital. That's why for the most part unless there is an oppressive dictator such as in Tunisia or Egypt there is really little need for political Revolution. The Western democratic process--while admittedly not always fair does provide enough self government to people really not concerned about such things.

Most people (exept a few at the bottom) are living in a Disneyland created for us by the Capitalists, but that's OK because it's really not a bad way to go through life. :)

[RGacky3]

That's why "Middle Class" works so well--it means "I don't want to bother thinking about things like that." In that way people--at least in the first world can go about whatever it is that is the real business of their lives.

Like lay offs, forclosures, like unemployment, like food stamps, an so on and so forth.


And that's where Capitalism has done a good job. For 95% of the First World life is pretty good. Most of their basic needs are met and they problems of the general Class Struggle have been atomized into more micro struggles that are their real concern.

Not really, you hav'nt been paying attention.


does provide enough self government to people really not concerned about such things.


Any evidence of that? The US, has one of the most laughable "democracy" of the industrialized world.


ost people (exept a few at the bottom) are living in a Disneyland created for us by the Capitalists, but that's OK because it's really not a bad way to go through life. :)

Unemployment, working long and hard ad dead end jobs, forclosures, living in tents, food stamps, poverty, do you think people are happy with the economic situation?

[Bud Struggle]

Like lay offs, forclosures, like unemployment, like food stamps, an so on and so forth. It is bad for some people--but things will get better thay always do.


Not really, you hav'nt been paying attention. I've been to IWW meetings remember? I've seen wat the strugle to organize looks like.


Any evidence of that? The US, has one of the most laughable "democracy" of the industrialized world. Do you see any protests against the American syatem of government? Even a little? If people were unhappy with they system the'd say something. Right now all the protesters are working nicely within the system.


Unemployment, working long and hard ad dead end jobs, forclosures, living in tents, food stamps, poverty, do you think people are happy with the economic situation? i agree there is that underbelly. But by far and away most people live very comfortable lives in the USA. And the ones that don't--well, they vote for Hope and Change. :)

[RGacky3]

It is bad for some people--but things will get better thay always do.


In history things have gotten better through revolutions.

Also over the last 40 years, things have been getting relatively worse.


I've been to IWW meetings remember? I've seen wat the strugle to organize looks like.


good for you, you still hav'nt been paying attention to whats been going on in the world.


Do you see any protests against the American syatem of government? Even a little? If people were unhappy with they system the'd say something. Right now all the protesters are working nicely within the system.


For decades and decades people in tunisia, put up with their system, there's a boiling point though, the US is heading towad it.


i agree there is that underbelly. But by far and away most people live very comfortable lives in the USA. And the ones that don't--well, they vote for Hope and Change.

And they don't get it. As far as most people living comfortable lives, well thast subjective, but still people are NOT happy with the way the economy is, and they have a good point.

[Bud Struggle]

And they don't get it. As far as most people living comfortable lives, well thast subjective, but still people are NOT happy with the way the economy is, and they have a good point.

I love you Gack. :wub:

[Revolution starts with U]

Most people didn't consider blacks to be human....
minds can be changed.

[ÑóẊîöʼn]

Mexican immigrants, gay workers, Muslim workers, women workers - all their demands are different from one another, so much so that one cannot establish a single, homogenous 'working class' program. The Mexican worker's demand may revolve around easing immigration controls, whereas a gay worker's demand may be an end to discrimination at the work place.

There's nothing contradictory about those demands. By uniting politically and giving each other a louder voice by doing so, workers who are immigrants or sexual minorities can both get what they want.


In this context, the term 'working class' makes little sense except as a vague and confusing abstraction. Workers are so different from each other that they're even willing to ignore what's common among them, namely their slavery to capital.

It's the job of communists to make workers aware of their common interests. If that hasn't been happening to a good enough degree, then communists need to work harder or improve their strategy.

[Bud Struggle]

Most people didn't consider blacks to be human....
minds can be changed.

People used to at least tolerate Jews in Europe--then for a time they wanted to kill them all. So minds could be changed in lots of ways.

Be caeful.

[RGacky3]

People used to at least tolerate Jews in Europe

WHen was that? (Anti sematism had a long long history in europe before the Nazis).

[Bud Struggle]

WHen was that? (Anti sematism had a long long history in europe before the Nazis).

I said tolerated not loved. But the Jews did rather well in places like Poland and the Baltic states--even in Germany, the finance minister of Germany during WWI was a Jew, Jews were made members of the aristocracy in England and France, before Nazism came along.

But there were pograms too.

[RGacky3]

Before Nazism in Germany anti-semitism was deep seated in the society, its kind of like Blacks in America, there are some that make it up, but the prejudice still lingers.

I'm not saying they wern't tolerated, but its not like it came up out of the blue.

[Geiseric]

People didn't just get up and say hey! I hate jews! People were manipulated by a few guys who were using the jews to make a country full of animals, easy to control. a nation is nothing but a made up community. it was really the same thing with blacks, racism and class distinctions based on race or gender is nonsense, nothing but a list of small differences based on culture to split people up. The working class imho consists of everybody exploited by the current system, farmers, immigrant workers, regular workers, etc. Who are all split up based on misconceptions.

[Obs]

Are communists mistaken?

Yes.

[Revolution starts with U]

The point is, Bud, that you would say that were you Lord Bud of Struggleshire circa 1242. Your arguments are merely The Secret of capitalism; just wish it and keep a positive outlook and it WILL happen for you.
And that argument is bad anywhere, in your personal or economic life. If you wish it, it MAY happen. But for most, it will not.

EDIT: Where's the science? Less philosophy, cuz that's outdated

[Dean]

I said tolerated not loved. But the Jews did rather well in places like Poland and the Baltic states--even in Germany, the finance minister of Germany during WWI was a Jew, Jews were made members of the aristocracy in England and France, before Nazism came along.

But there were pograms too.

More Jews served Germany in WWI per capita than any other ethnic group. But there are definitely class issues which define racism.


Do you see any protests against the American syatem of government? Even a little?
Egypt and Tunisia come to mind,


If people were unhappy with they system the'd say something. Right now all the protesters are working nicely within the system.
And they do, where the American system of governance hurts most. This happens in the US as well, at a higher rate of the oft-publicized tea party festivals. But its not reported because its not valuable to the corporate elite which pressure mainstream media.

[Revolution starts with U]

Of course YOU don't see protests Bud. That would be like Atlas Shrugged, and I think we all agree that's a fantasy.

Drive through warren, oh. You see protests in the form of strikes all over... where people still have jobs. Other than that I (personally) see protests in the face of the homeless, and the lines of the shelters.
The system works for you, and it should work for everybody. Therefore the system does, in fact, work.
^That's a pretty invalid (illogical) argument

[Raúl Duke]

Problem is, workers don't see themselves as workers, so an appeal to the nonexistent 'working class' would have no value. What world do you live in?

Perhaps it's because I was raised in Puerto Rico and things might be different there on this regard, but anyone who's employed in a shit wage job (like my last job) is really really conscious of the fact that they work a shit job. Of course, the "identity" of worker (or any class label really) is not the one they refer to often in real life but it's a social role that workers themselves are not ignorant about. I don't think one can be ignorant about that.


In this context, the term 'working class' makes little sense except as a vague and confusing abstraction. Workers are so different from each other that they're even willing to ignore what's common among them, namely their slavery to capital. This however is true, yet even though it's an abstraction it's not something non-existent (sociologically speaking). Workers are different from one another and it's quite normal to see workers being friends with even certain people outside their class rather than other workers due to having different personal tastes or whatever.

But workers can have a unity of sorts and act as a collective force when faced with things against their interest or when they act for something in their interest. This can be seen throughout history among every class.


Do you see any protests against the American syatem of government? Even a little? If people were unhappy with they system the'd say something. Right now all the protesters are working nicely within the system.That doesn't really say much, more protests don't accurately gauge anything. For all we know, all those "more protests" could just be more symbolic protest done by activists-types who in the end of the day go to a private college paid in full by their parents or whatever and/or are not effected at all by the issue they're protesting about.

Right now, one could say, that there's a lot of discontent pent up among the American populace. There's no good outlet for that discontent at the moment. One could say the tea party is "an outlet" but it's usually one for well-off people or people who made-believed they were well off with credit and now got their house mortgage "under water" or whatever.

But look at the Arab world for example, all those places with revolts probably had little to no protests beforehand. Discontent can go on simmering un-notice and than burst forth out of nowhere. Many revolutions, like the French and Russian ones, and revolts (like May '68) have occurred and many political intellectuals didn't see it coming (particularly the case with the Russian one).