An example of Capitalist hypocrisy

[Urban Rubble]

Dual posted on ISF and Che Lives.



The Black Book of Communism has said that Communism has been responsible for 100 million deaths in this century. Now, put aside your feelings that this is propaganda and let's assume they are telling the truth. This proves nothing about communism, I will give one example (out of thousands) of how Capitalism has killed more, in one country, in 35 years.

The Black Book says that the famine in China between the years 1958 and 1960 killed 25 million. Again, let's assume for arguments sake that this is true. Now, this is, of course, a political and ideological crime. Not even the capitalists will claim that they did this on purpose, it was a result of ideology and economics, among other things. They didn't intend to kill these people, but they did nontheless and it would be correct to call this one of the major attrocities of the 20th century.

Now look at (capitalist) India while it was under British rule. India had numerous famines that killed tens of millions, but no one counts that as a crime of British Imperialism, because when the capitalist does this it is not considered a crime.

Now let's compare the death rates between the two countries between 1945 and 1980.

They were approximately the same in 1945, they were similar countries. As the years went on the mortality rate dropped in China while it skyrocketed in India. The difference is that China instituted rural health clinics, preventitive medicine for the poor and so on. India didn't. Being a Democratic Capitalist country they don't care to help the poor. Amarty Sen (whose book this post is based on) said "India seems to manage to fill it's cupboard with more skeletons every eight years than China did in it's years of shame".

The numbers in India add up to about 100 million people between 1945 and 1980, but they don't call that a crime of Democratic Capitalism. Imagine if we were to add up the numbers from the rest of the world. Now don't get me wrong, these crimes were not intended, but they are ideological and institutional crimes nontheless. Capitalism was responsible just as Communism was responsible for China.

[elijahcraig]

Good point.

One thing:


The Black Book says that the famine in China between the years 1958 and 1960 killed 25 million. Again, let's assume for arguments sake that this is true. Now, this is, of course, a political and ideological crime. Not even the capitalists will claim that they did this on purpose, it was a result of ideology and economics, among other things. They didn't intend to kill these people, but they did nontheless and it would be correct to call this one of the major attrocities of the 20th century.

This is the fault of revisionist capitalist Khrushcev who did not deliver on his end of the deal. He left China stranded without the promised aid, and caused starvation. These deaths should be attributed to Capitalism.

[Urban Rubble]

Well, I wouldn't say Kruschev was entirely cappie, but still, him failling to supply aid would not not result in that many deaths if China was successfully feeding people.

But I don't really want to make this thread in an argument about that, that is not the point. I agree somewhat, but I don't think the Chinese famines are entirely the fault of Capitalism.

[elijahcraig]

MIM has some good articles on this.

[Vinny Rafarino]

Fuck Stalin. Fuckin' Rubble's my hero.


And India is just the tip of the iceberg comrade Rubble! These filthy swine are quick to break any communist's balls over a shortage of food here, or a shortage of foos there yet they never mention that these numbers are paled by capitalism's crimes against humanity. No one can open their eyes. Would you be able to sit down with little Adolf and explain to him that human ovens are just not that cool? Fuck no. Could you sit diwn with the Papa Doc and tell him that his policies are causing the deaths of thousands of Haitains every day.
No chance comrade.

This brilliant post proves one thing;

The capitalists are aware of their hypocracy yet they don't care one bit 'cos they're having steak and lobster every fucking night. We as the militant wing of communism care nothing for their charade. We will fight them their way.

You starve our families and we will send you to the grave. You take bread from the mouths of our masses? We will take the lives of your entire family tree.

Some may think I'm crazy, and perhaps you are right, but I and many other like-minded individuals have no moral problems eliminating every last trace of fascism and bourgeois oppression from this earth.

Keep laughing all the way to the bank right now capitalist pigs, just keep in mind that we will soon destroy that bank. And you right along with it.

EDIT;

No I'm not drunk.

[elijahcraig]

I agree completely. 3 billion people (a conservative estimate) live off of less than 2 dollars a day every day, that's more than half of the world's population. Millions starve while Bill Gates and the rest of the Capitalists sit in houses with heated driveways. That is sickening. That is unacceptable; if you any kind of Communist, the words just written by Comrade RAF should be your feeling on this subject.

[Loknar]

There is more to the book, for example did you see the picture of that Polish officer handing upside down with a stick going up his ass?



I wont deny capitalism is responsible for some pretty bad crimes but Communist mis management is also just as guilty. Look at how Stalin industrialized Russia, he made people work their asses off. What about the people under Mao who were in forced labor camps? Or even Mao’s own purges? What about Afghanistan? The Soviets really fucked that place up. Then there is good ole’ Pol Pot, what can you say on that mans behalf? Then there is the case of Eastern and Western Europe after WW2. While the US pumped billions of dollars into their redevelopment and ultimately made the West prosperous the East had no where the amount of success and the Soviets dismissed the West’s development with a propaganda campaign . All while the Soviet Union was living in shit, standing in bread lines the average American was provided for just well. I don’t care which economic ideology you follow but don’t even try to make Communism seem innocent.

[elijahcraig]

There is more to the book, for example did you see the picture of that Polish officer handing upside down with a stick going up his ass?

You'd have to do some pretty fancy work to prove that was a murder of communsim, and not of WWII.




I wont deny capitalism is responsible for some pretty bad crimes but Communist mis management is also just as guilty. Look at how Stalin industrialized Russia, he made people work their asses off.

If the whole wolrd had not been invading and infiltraiting and that sort of thing, such rapid industrialization might not have been needed. THough, without it, we'd all be under Nazi power right now.



What about the people under Mao who were in forced labor camps? Or even Mao’s own purges?

What are you referring to, forced labor camps?

Purging the party is absolutely necessary.


What about Afghanistan? The Soviets really fucked that place up.

The US trained guerillas to fight against the USSR, this is a war.


Then there is good ole’ Pol Pot, what can you say on that mans behalf?

He was never a communist.


Then there is the case of Eastern and Western Europe after WW2. While the US pumped billions of dollars into their redevelopment and ultimately made the West prosperous the East had no where the amount of success and the Soviets dismissed the West’s development with a propaganda campaign . All while the Soviet Union was living in shit, standing in bread lines the average American was provided for just well. I don’t care which economic ideology you follow but don’t even try to make Communism seem innocent.

Blame state capitalist Khruschev for that buddy boy.

[synthesis]

That's Chomsky, right? I think it was in his book Secrets, Lies, and Democracy, but it could have been in Power and Terror.

[Dark Capitalist]

Fun fact: 1.8 people die every second of every minute of every hour of every day of every week of every month of every year.


130 people died in the making of this post.

[Vinny Rafarino]

Jesus fucking Christ in a bageldog. I can't believe the capitalists actually bothered to post in this thread. You kats are simply dumber than corky from "life goes on". You morons need a fucking sitcom. Can you believe this jackass actually brought up the "bread line" business again? Didn'r exploited class already school you on that subject BoyLoknar? You're a fucking joke. I can only assume you are here to start trouble as it is obvious you wait a few weeks and then post the same bullshit rhetoric that has already been debunked here. You make me sick to my fucking stomach you silly twat.



EDIT:


P.S.

DC,

Have a fucking point when you post jackass! I'm sick of reading your absolute and utter bollocks!

What, you just wanna have people talk about you? "Oh that DC is such a bastard! I can't believe he said that!"

Grow up you fucking loser. You wanna play stupid "he said, she said" games? That's what high school is for dipshit!

[Loknar]

RAF, stop being an asshole and address what I have brought up. Will you deny that Communism hasn’t been directly responsible for millions of deaths? Were the breadlines just some bull shit fabrication? If so prove me wrong. Or are you just holier than thou?

[Vinny Rafarino]

Rad the last thread you brought that fucking question up in you fucking lame ass yanqui twat.


Here's some news for you;


I was personally responsible for every death in the last 85 years.


Fuck off moron!

[Loknar]

Comrade RAF, even a communist on this forum can see you're just an arrogant prick. Do you even know how to debate someone or have you lived in isolation all of your life?

Man, I hope you never become Head of Government of any nation. Pol Pot would look like a friggin joke.

[Urban Rubble]

"That's Chomsky, right? I think it was in his book Secrets, Lies, and Democracy, but it could have been in Power and Terror."

I think there is a part on this in Power and Terror, but I got most of the info from Amarty Sen's studies for which he won the nobel prize. Chomsky based his little part in Power and Terror on the same study.

Loknar, I was not intending to say that none of the stuff in the Black Book is true, just that Capitalism is responsible for FAR more deaths worldwide. It's just far easier to point out the purges and gulags, it's not as easy to count the number of deaths under Capitalism.

[FistFullOfSteel]

fuck all cappies..all they wrong :angry:

[Loknar]

Originally posted by Urban [email protected] 3 2003, 03:06 PM
"That's Chomsky, right? I think it was in his book Secrets, Lies, and Democracy, but it could have been in Power and Terror."

I think there is a part on this in Power and Terror, but I got most of the info from Amarty Sen's studies for which he won the nobel prize. Chomsky based his little part in Power and Terror on the same study.

Loknar, I was not intending to say that none of the stuff in the Black Book is true, just that Capitalism is responsible for FAR more deaths worldwide. It's just far easier to point out the purges and gulags, it's not as easy to count the number of deaths under Capitalism.
I'd say they are about equal.

But it is undisputed that about 94 million people died under regimes who labeled them selves as "Communist". Were all of the Communists? No of course not. Were some cappie in disguise? Probably. I'd say both are almost equally responsible.


hugo

Do you have anything useful to add or do you want to sound like RAF?

[FistFullOfSteel]

loknar:aa ok i see u a cappie...cappies wrong cause they have"rich win" thing

[Loknar]

Originally posted by [email protected] 3 2003, 03:39 PM
loknar:aa ok i see u a cappie...cappies wrong cause they have"rich win" thing
Yes, I want to be rich. I would rather be self sufficent rather than rely on the government to take care of me. Why is it the job of the government to provide health care to you? Why not insure your self?

[FistFullOfSteel]

cause i need the goverments help...hmm ok if i get sick and have to get a medicine..shall i do my own?

[Loknar]

Originally posted by [email protected] 3 2003, 03:58 PM
cause i need the goverments help...hmm ok if i get sick and have to get a medicine..shall i do my own?
If you cant afford it then by all means you should get public aid. However, if you have a job and are making money and can afford insurance and your bills you should not need government assistance. Besides, look at Canada's health care and compare it to Americas. Here I don’t have to worry about waiting months for surgery or to even see a health specialist.

[FistFullOfSteel]

okay.....end

[Loknar]

Hugo

Give me a basic description of Communism.

[FistFullOfSteel]

u know how communism works..right..why ask?

[Loknar]

Originally posted by [email protected] 3 2003, 04:09 PM
u know how communism works..right..why ask?
Because I don’t believe that you know what Communism is.

[Unrelenting Steve]

Originally posted by Loknar+Sep 3 2003, 02:56 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Loknar @ Sep 3 2003, 02:56 PM)
[email protected] 3 2003, 03:39 PM
loknar:aa ok i see u a cappie...cappies wrong cause they have"rich win" thing
Yes, I want to be rich. I would rather be self sufficent rather than rely on the government to take care of me. Why is it the job of the government to provide health care to you? Why not insure your self? [/b]
I am glad you see that its right that the public must provide for people who are not self sufficent (as u show in ur a later response). So it seems you have a little socialism in you, but in my country,to keep to what you admitted to-as the people (at least the people who have jobs and pay taxes) couldnt afford that kind of socialism as they would live poorer lives than the people the government would pay for as they would have to live under the confinements of abject poverty and exert the energy to maintain their work-be communist. Of course in advanced capitalist countries,or in other words countries with the power to pillage other coutries, you have the stolen wealth to afford your state democratic socialism, so as long as you can stand hipocracy you can carry on spewing your peversion of the "truth", otherwise known as acceptable american free speech&#33;

Good American.

[sc4r]

Urban : Brilliant post, one of, if not the most; powerful, honest, factual, and direct I have ever read anywhere.

I had to say briliiant mate, I have nothing to add.



go ne-eiri an bothar leat

[Dark Capitalist]

P.S.

DC,

Have a fucking point when you post jackass&#33; I&#39;m sick of reading your absolute and utter bollocks&#33;

What, you just wanna have people talk about you? "Oh that DC is such a bastard&#33; I can&#39;t believe he said that&#33;"

Grow up you fucking loser. You wanna play stupid "he said, she said" games? That&#39;s what high school is for dipshit&#33;


I&#39;m not the &#39;35 year old&#39; man who goes around degrading teenagers on internet forums in order to boost my own self-esteem, son.

[Loknar]

Originally posted by Dark [email protected] 4 2003, 12:20 AM

P.S.

DC,

Have a fucking point when you post jackass&#33; I&#39;m sick of reading your absolute and utter bollocks&#33;

What, you just wanna have people talk about you? "Oh that DC is such a bastard&#33; I can&#39;t believe he said that&#33;"

Grow up you fucking loser. You wanna play stupid "he said, she said" games? That&#39;s what high school is for dipshit&#33;


I&#39;m not the &#39;35 year old&#39; man who goes around degrading teenagers on internet forums in order to boost my own self-esteem, son.
So true, in fact I pitty RAF at times.

[Vinny Rafarino]

I&#39;m touched.

Now run along and play children. Make sure to be back before dark&#33; You know how mummy worries&#33;

[elijahcraig]

94 milliion deaths Loknar??? You are fucking crazy&#33;

[Loknar]

Originally posted by [email protected] 4 2003, 02:58 AM
94 milliion deaths Loknar??? You are fucking crazy&#33;
Yes, 94 million under Communist regimes or regimes claiming to be communist.

[Regicidal Insomniac]

Thought that sounded familiar, it is incredibly similar to a passage from Chomsky&#39;s Power and Tower. Nonetheless, it&#39;s a very strong point and a good reason why the so-called black book of Communism is nothing more than useless hypocritical flaptrap. Not to mention that including Pol Pot in those numbers is the worst piece of crap ever concieved. If someone ever tried to write a black book of capitalism it would take it an entire library...

[elijahcraig]

Where do you get that number from?

[Urban Rubble]

Ya, he made a mention of it in Power and Terror (not Tower =)). I just got Amarty Sen&#39;s book =, that&#39;s what Chomsky based it on.

Anyway, Elijah, I wouldn&#39;t really dispute the 94 million number myself. If you look at the numbers they add up. The thing is, they aren&#39;t nearly as extraordinary as they sound. Capitalism is responsible for FAR more deaths that that, so many so that it would be totally impossible to count, they don&#39;t mention that in their little Black Book. As the post said, 100 million died in India in 35 years. I would be willing to bet that in 10 years the Capitalist death toll would FAR excede the total Communist total.

[elijahcraig]

There is no way in hell communism is responsible for that many deaths. If it were true, I would not be a communist. That is capitalist propaganda.

[Cassius Clay]

It&#39;s all based on Stalin murdering &#39;25 million&#39; and Mao supposedly being responsible for the death of &#39;40 million&#39;. Hell they even blame the Vietnamese Communists for deaths resulting in the Vietnam War, and they said Albania had One million &#39;innocent political prisoners&#39; when infact they had 800 criminalls in jail. Go figure.

The only one they can get any evidence on is Pol Pot, and he didn&#39;t claim to be a Marxist of any sought until 1977 in order to get support of the then Capitalist China, he was also provided with aid from the U&#036;A.

Nervmind that as of 1996 there were three million more people in the United &#036;tates prison system than there ever were in the USSR, nevermind that the survival rate in Russian prisons today is far less than it was in Soviet times, which given the advances in medicines (the introduction of penicinlin for example greatly decreased the death rate in USSR&#39;&#39;s prisons) makes you wonder why 92,000 Russian prisoners today have TB. Nevermind that it was the &#39;Evil Commies&#39; in Vietnam who liberated Cambodia.

[Urban Rubble]

You know, Stalin and Mao caused ALOT of horror, but they also did ALOT of good. The ONE "communist" leader that did absolutely nothing good and caused at least a couple of million deaths was Pol Pot, now, think about this, talking to you Loknar. The U.S (namely Nixon and Kissinger) paved the way for Pol Pot and the Khmer Rouge to come into power be extending their war out of Vietnam and into Cambodia. If it were not for the Napalm and Carpet Bombings of Cambodia Pol Pot probably never would have come to power.

Another example of our good ole U.S hypocrisy. Denounce Pol Pot but overlook the fact that you helped him into power. Go after Saddam for human rights violations but overlook the fact that while he was gassing the Kurds we were selling him the weapons to do so. Flout Democracy but help overthrow the deomcratically elected Allende (not to mention giving the machine guns for the men to kill General Shneider). Point nukes at Russia but get all pissy when they point them back.

[Loknar]

Here is where I get my numbers from:

http://users.erols.com/mwhite28/war-1900.htm (this is the opening page)


Here is an alphabetical list of countries. Look at US and figure out how many we killed.

As for the COmmunism statictic:

http://users.erols.com/mwhite28/warstatx.htm
scroll down the list to COmmunism or Capitalism (yes it&#39;s listed too)

[elijahcraig]

Wow, that&#39;s "proof".

:lol:

I agree Comrade Cassius; rubble, I do not agree with you on Stalin and Mao.

[Vinny Rafarino]

Who the hell is Mathew White and were the hell did hw get his numbers from? C&#39;mon Loknar, this is thin.

[Loknar]

Originally posted by [email protected] 4 2003, 11:29 PM
Wow, that&#39;s "proof".

:lol:

I agree Comrade Cassius; rubble, I do not agree with you on Stalin and Mao.
These aren’t numbers pulled out of thin air. They are numbers gathered that are stated by other sources.

This is known as selective belief. I am sure if it said that the US killed 500 million people you&#39;d love it. Anyway, what do you require as proof?

[Loknar]

Originally posted by COMRADE [email protected] 4 2003, 11:40 PM
Who the hell is Mathew White and were the hell did hw get his numbers from? C&#39;mon Loknar, this is thin.
Read the FAQ


Anyway, RAF, I supposed Jews really took showers right?

[elijahcraig]

Pulled from the source:


These numbers are consistant with Conquest&#39;s estimate of 10M killed by Stalin

:lol:

[Loknar]

What&#39;s so funny? Historical revisionists really piss me off. I suppose the Rape of Nanking never happened right?

[elijahcraig]

con formatto para .... :lol:

[Urban Rubble]

"I agree Comrade Cassius; rubble, I do not agree with you on Stalin and Mao. "

I know this Elijah. It actually kind of suprises me, most hardcore Stalinists will admit that they caused alot of problems, just that it wasn&#39;t intended, which is somehow O.K. I mean, do you really deny that the Chinese famines and the Soviet purges really took place ? Intended or not, these men still caused millions of deaths. I am sorry, but that is historical fact.

[elijahcraig]

The Chinese Famine after the Great Leap Forward was a result of Khrusvchev’s revisionist capitalist policies; he withdrew literally thousands of skilled specialists, and along with them the plans for the economic industrialization. He also only delivered on about half of the aid in machines he was supposed to produce. I admit the famine occurred, of course; it was not Mao’s fault.

The purges were absolutely necessary. Hitler’s Fifth Column had infiltrated every government in Europe, mainly France (which is why the country fell so easily). Stalin’s tight grip on security was necessary. Hell, one of his best friends had just been assassinated, and two of the best Bolsheviks had just admitted to planning to overthrow the Soviet State, and cooperation with Germany. This is the sort of bureacracy Stalin had to guard against. It was absolutely necessary, if he had not done so, WWII would have been lost to Germany, and the USSR would have fell like France. This did not cause the deaths of millions nonetheless.

[Vinny Rafarino]

That is not historical fact comrade Rubble. Not even in the slightest. There are multiple threads on this very subject where the neo-left failed to produce evidence. Let&#39;s not do this again.


Comrade elijah;

Con formatto para?

Cio significa niente. Che tu tentano di dire?

Loknar,

What the fuck are you on about?

[synthesis]

Originally posted by Cassius [email protected] 4 2003, 09:51 AM
It&#39;s all based on Stalin murdering &#39;25 million&#39; and Mao supposedly being responsible for the death of &#39;40 million&#39;. Hell they even blame the Vietnamese Communists for deaths resulting in the Vietnam War, and they said Albania had One million &#39;innocent political prisoners&#39; when infact they had 800 criminalls in jail. Go figure.

The only one they can get any evidence on is Pol Pot, and he didn&#39;t claim to be a Marxist of any sought until 1977 in order to get support of the then Capitalist China, he was also provided with aid from the U&#036;A.

Nervmind that as of 1996 there were three million more people in the United &#036;tates prison system than there ever were in the USSR, nevermind that the survival rate in Russian prisons today is far less than it was in Soviet times, which given the advances in medicines (the introduction of penicinlin for example greatly decreased the death rate in USSR&#39;&#39;s prisons) makes you wonder why 92,000 Russian prisoners today have TB. Nevermind that it was the &#39;Evil Commies&#39; in Vietnam who liberated Cambodia.
This post was absolutely brilliant. Rereading it, I discovered how well it would translate to a spoken debate on Communism. I encourage everyone to repeat this post out loud in order to realize what a great speech this would make.


What&#39;s so funny? Historical revisionists really piss me off. I suppose the Rape of Nanking never happened right?

Historical revisionism is perfectly valid. Your attempt to link Communist revisionism with Nazi revisionism was silly and childish.

[elijahcraig]

RAF,

Apenas sangria derribos. :lol:

[Urban Rubble]

RAF

Blabity frifnivel deringery