Zeitgeist 3: Moving Forward

[Q]

Released on the 25th and already watched almost 300 000 times at the time of writing this. I'm 40 minutes in and this is pretty good stuff. Enjoy:

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[Proukunin]

i only watched maybe 10 to 15 minutes of it last night but what I watched was pretty good. I liked the debunking of genetic problems.

[Rusty Shackleford]

ill watch it, reluctantly.

[Permanent Revolutionary]

The first one was bollocks and this one will undoubtedly be the same.

[Q]

The first one was bollocks and this one will undoubtedly be the same.

I just finished watching and that is simply untrue. While part 1 clearly implied some kind of grand conspiracy for example, this one explicitly rules it out and puts the blame of our problems "fundamentally at the socio-economic system itself", which is obviously a correct conclusion.

The weakness of the Zeitgeist Movement remains that it stays vague on exactly how society will change and what is needed to accomplish that. It just says that there will be inevitable social clashes after the next economic crash due to the government running out of money to pay unemployment benefits and that this will trigger people demanding change. But as we know such "change" doesn't have to be progressive.

Also, it starts the last bit of the movie by saying how all this has nothing to do with communism. Now I guess this is related to distancing itself from the failure that was the USSR, but I believe it throws out the baby with the bathwater, so it is left with reinventing the wheel. Its explicit anti-political stance, while understandable, isn't helping.

That said, there is a clear evolution throughout the movies and this was by far the best movie yet. It surely helps as an eyeopener for many millions of people towards our cause.

[Dimentio]

I just finished watching and that is simply untrue. While part 1 clearly implied some kind of grand conspiracy for example, this one explicitly rules it out and puts the blame of our problems "fundamentally at the socio-economic system itself", which is obviously a correct conclusion.

The weakness of the Zeitgeist Movement remains that it stays vague on exactly how society will change and what is needed to accomplish that. It just says that there will be inevitable social clashes after the next economic crash due to the government running out of money to pay unemployment benefits and that this will trigger people demanding change. But as we know such "change" doesn't have to be progressive.

Also, it starts the last bit of the movie by saying how all this has nothing to do with communism. Now I guess this is related to distancing itself from the failure that was the USSR, but I believe it throws out the baby with the bathwater, so it is left with reinventing the wheel. Its explicit anti-political stance, while understandable, isn't helping.

That said, there is a clear evolution throughout the movies and this was by far the best movie yet. It surely helps as an eyeopener for many millions of people towards our cause.

They do have a community on their own.

www.thezeitgeistmovement.com

[Rusty Shackleford]

I just finished watching and that is simply untrue. While part 1 clearly implied some kind of grand conspiracy for example, this one explicitly rules it out and puts the blame of our problems "fundamentally at the socio-economic system itself", which is obviously a correct conclusion.

The weakness of the Zeitgeist Movement remains that it stays vague on exactly how society will change and what is needed to accomplish that. It just says that there will be inevitable social clashes after the next economic crash due to the government running out of money to pay unemployment benefits and that this will trigger people demanding change. But as we know such "change" doesn't have to be progressive.

Also, it starts the last bit of the movie by saying how all this has nothing to do with communism. Now I guess this is related to distancing itself from the failure that was the USSR, but I believe it throws out the baby with the bathwater, so it is left with reinventing the wheel. Its explicit anti-political stance, while understandable, isn't helping.

That said, there is a clear evolution throughout the movies and this was by far the best movie yet. It surely helps as an eyeopener for many millions of people towards our cause.

This feels like its the early to mid 1800s and people are just starting to react negatively to capitalism. the response is mystical and vague.

Either this will mature into something acute and coherent or it will die.

[Q]

They do have a community on their own.

www.thezeitgeistmovement.com

How is that more than a webforum?

At least the revolutionary left is somewhat more than this forum ;)

[Os Cangaceiros]

There's something about the so-called "Zeitgeist Movement" that really gets on my tits. It could have something to do with their first (awful) film, but I don't think that's all of it, as there other stuff kind of moved away from that. In any case, I think that I'd probably appreciate their material more if it came from some other entity.

[GPDP]

There's something about the so-called "Zeitgeist Movement" that really gets on my tits. It could have something to do with their first (awful) film, but I don't think that's all of it, as there other stuff kind of moved away from that. In any case, I think that I'd probably appreciate their material more if it came from some other entity.

How about the fact that many in the movement are either into conspiracies, New Age spiritual bullshit, or both?

[Rafiq]

The problem I have with these films regards with their explicit use of cinematic effects. I'd appreciate it without music, without all of the emotional points, and just solid facts, I'd have no problems with it if this were the case.

[Os Cangaceiros]

How about the fact that many in the movement are either into conspiracies, New Age spiritual bullshit, or both?

Yeah, that definitely is part of it.

[Q]

There is zero conspiration crap in this one though. I'm glad they shed that off completely.

[Amphictyonis]

There is zero conspiration crap in this one though. I'm glad they shed that off completely.

Peak oil Mike Ruppert at the end. The criticisms of socialism in the video are founded in right wing criticisms of the USSR. I think this zeitgeist movement is OK for young people just starting to realize capitalism is not good for humanity. The third film is OK for bringing new people (somewhat more rationally than the first two) into a vague anti capitalist mainframe. Peter Joseph and Jacque Fresco still have much to learn concerning critiquing the system and understanding what it will take to end it, although, if I'm not mistaken they did pick up on the worsening crisis being key to capitalism's destruction. They're good at dramatic media thats for sure. They lacked class analysis and a critique of the effects of hierarchy. I think they'd get further if they'd stop criticizing socialism and embrace what Marxism and anarchism have to offer.

[Dimentio]

How is that more than a webforum?

At least the revolutionary left is somewhat more than this forum ;)

I have met them in the real world. They have a small but active group in Stockholm for example.

[Delenda Carthago]

I have met them in the real world. They have a small but active group in Stockholm for example.
And what it is that they do actually?Because here in Greece, its like 25 half ass losers,half ass lunatics that only show the first two documentaries and work with NGOs for...alternative energy sources.

Its so funny, cause they are like Jahobas witnesess but for Fresco in the place of Christ, and now that the analyse of Z is so radical different,they gonna accept it like there is nothing changed.I can see it from now, ten years from now, there gonna be two sechts fighting each other who the real zeitgeister really is, the conspiracy ones or the serious ones!:lol:

[Amphictyonis]

And what it is that they do actually?Because here in Greece, its like 25 half ass losers,half ass lunatics that only show the first two documentaries and work with NGOs for...alternative energy sources.

Its so funny, cause they are like Jahobas witnesess but for Fresco in the place of Christ, and now that the analyse of Z is so radical different,they gonna accept it like there is nothing changed.I can see it from now, ten years from now, there gonna be two sechts fighting each other who the real zeitgeister really is, the conspiracy ones or the serious ones!:lol:

Fresco has to die first then it will be the anti revisionist Zeitgeisters against the Trostyite or...I mean, Peter Joseph revisionist traders! Conspiracy theory denying scum!

[Dimentio]

And what it is that they do actually?Because here in Greece, its like 25 half ass losers,half ass lunatics that only show the first two documentaries and work with NGOs for...alternative energy sources.

Its so funny, cause they are like Jahobas witnesess but for Fresco in the place of Christ, and now that the analyse of Z is so radical different,they gonna accept it like there is nothing changed.I can see it from now, ten years from now, there gonna be two sechts fighting each other who the real zeitgeister really is, the conspiracy ones or the serious ones!:lol:

The Stockholmers are going out handling out Addendum and leaflets, and have also staged some kind of Dadaist protest against the Swedish political parties prior to the election.

[Permanent Revolutionary]

I just finished watching and that is simply untrue.

Scholars have pointed out that part 1 has many factual errors. For example the god's son-sun comparison doesn't work in the Latin.
The 9/11 conspiracy talk is rubbish.
And federal tax isn't illegal. So yes, it's a load of bollocks.

[A Revolutionary Tool]

Scholars have pointed out that part 1 has many factual errors. For example the god's son-sun comparison doesn't work in the Latin.
The 9/11 conspiracy talk is rubbish.
And federal tax isn't illegal. So yes, it's a load of bollocks.
He's talking about the one that just came out, not the first one. This one says zero about all of what you just critiqued. And Q agreed with you saying the first one is about grand conspiracies. Really the second and third ones are only a thousand times better than the first one, there's not all that conspiracy theory crap in those ones(Especially in this one, I haven't come across any conspiracies and I'm 2 hours into it). I mean you wouldn't be able to tell that the second and third movies were created by the same guy because the substance is totally different from the first one. You should give it a shot.

[Kassad]

Peter Joseph has had a lot to prove to leftists after the utter bullshit that was the first Zeitgeist movie. He may try to hide it, but there was a personal endorsement of Ron Paul for President in 2008 on the Zeitgeist website. Joseph was appealing to his viewers to support Paul in his attempts to end the Federal Reserve and the income tax. I do understand where some leftists wind up supporting The Zeitgeist Movement (a very small amount of actual activists, however), but I don't understand how anyone calling themselves a Marxist, Leninist or even a socialist can support it. The Zeitgeist Movement and the Venus Project repudiate socialism and communism as unnecessary "isms" that are outdated.

However, what do we really have here in the Zeitgeist Movement? I've talked about this time and time again and I am really amused by people I know who were so into the first movie (abolishing the income tax, supporting Ron Paul, 9/11 truth) and took a complete u-turn when the second movie came out. What the movies do show is that Joseph started off as relatively new and immature in regards to politics. As he matured politically, he realized the contradictions of the system and thus, we have his current ideology.

However, who supports these kinds of things? I have seen one person in the streets promoting the Zeitgeist Movement and that was in Chicago last year. After years of going to demonstrations across the country, I've seen one. That's pathetic. Secondly, this is nothing short of a conspiracy culture. Whenever new documentaries come out, there are thousands of online folks who embrace them at face value and become mindless acolytes of whatever cause the documentary puts forth. If Joseph took another U-turn tomorrow ideologically, I'm sure a lot of the Zeitgeist Movement would follow. The people who buy these kinds of documentaries are malleable.

I haven't watched this new one yet, but I will this weekend. I'm sure it's really great at pointing out the contradictions of capitalism. I'm also sure it will feature some really great points, cinematography and calls to action. However, this kind of movie is not something that's going to turn the working class in our favor, especially not when it rejects any kind of proletarian or socialist revolution. I could spend days pointing out the contradictions of capitalism, but if I don't actually provide a revolutionary alternative, I might as well have just saved my time.

I've seen a lot of good documentaries come and go. This culture lives predominantly on the internet. I don't want people to get the idea that I'm bashing Joseph or those who follow him. He has the right idea, but you also have to realize that the conspiracy movement is malleable as hell. This sure as hell isn't going to build a revolutionary party of the working class.

[A Revolutionary Tool]

I do understand where some leftists wind up supporting The Zeitgeist Movement (a very small amount of actual activists, however), but I don't understand how anyone calling themselves a Marxist, Leninist or even a socialist can support it.Wait what? You say you understand where some leftists support the ZM movement and then say you don't understand how anyone calling themselves part of the left can support it? Sorry I just find that a little contradicting.

But I don't think it's really support for it(Although I know a few who do), more like sympathizing for it. I'd never donate my money, show up to at a ZM protest, a ZM meeting, etc, but there views are very socialistic in the utopian fashion. The Venus Project really reminds me of Owen how they want to start some of these places up. But you just know that they are going to fail if they go about it how they want it to go.


The Zeitgeist Movement and the Venus Project repudiate socialism and communism as unnecessary "isms" that are outdated.
Which is why I find it very funny at times. It's like Q said, it's like they're trying to reinvent the wheel. They say they're against communism and socialism yet when you watch it(Especially this one that just came out) you'd think they got their ideas straight out of a book by Marx. I mean they say they're not Marxists in the film and then go on to use the same exact critiques and solutions as a Marxist or Anarchists would. The ruling class controls the information/culture/phrases such as freedom that we use, advocate abolishing the difference between town and country(Agriculture in cities), no more private property, planning how to allocate resources/labor(Labor when we'd need to of course according to their futuristic plan) instead of the anarchy of the market, etc, etc. I mean really it's funny watching these people denying that they're on the left.

I just really think it's a good place to recruit new people. I mean these people already believe private property, profit, etc, are bad things and that we need to change it. They don't have a very clear way to achieve that and here we are having much of the same ideas with a better analysis and some pretty clear programs of how we are to get there(A lot more clearer than what the ZM proposes anyways).




I've seen a lot of good documentaries come and go. This culture lives predominantly on the internet. I don't want people to get the idea that I'm bashing Joseph or those who follow him. He has the right idea, but you also have to realize that the conspiracy movement is malleable as hell. This sure as hell isn't going to build a revolutionary party of the working class.
I don't think many here would disagree with you that this isn't going to build a revolutionary party of the working class. I do think it radicalizes more people, gets them to question things that you could never question in the mainstream, etc, therefore it being a good thing making it more probable that people would get interested in other radical politics.

I'll tell you the truth, I would probably have never become a communist if I didn't believe in conspiracies like the NWO and such when I was younger.

[Rusty Shackleford]

So i just watched it and it got less conspiratorial and a little bit more factual.

they seemed to touch on the fetishism of money and so on.

but honestly. it creeps me out. i get the whole Fallout feeling of creepy overseers and shit. im not a technocrat but i am an advocate of technologically assisted economic planning. (i mean, if you arent, you are probably a luddite or a primmie) the destruction of arable lands is true. and various environmental problems are true. but it does not validate this ideology.

the film ends in the most utopian fashion though.

rulers of society giving up simply because people dont want them to be there? please.

[punisa]

The problem I have with these films regards with their explicit use of cinematic effects. I'd appreciate it without music, without all of the emotional points, and just solid facts, I'd have no problems with it if this were the case.

Same thing here. But what I'm about to say is a very sad fact: that is the only kind of production that can actually attract great masses.
Even Michael Moore must incorporate a bit of humor every 5 minute in order to keep the general audience awake.

I really hate this because i can't find a single mainstream documentary that is really that - just a documentary.
A bit off-topic - but I used to love documentaries about travel, animals and all that stuff. Many were produced by National Geographic, BBC etc.
Nowadays even these are just one big sensationalist bull feces.
Lats week I "tried" to watch some documentary about inland Australia, it resembled more an action movie than a documentary with killer snakes close-ups and whatnot... just plain stupid.

But as I said before - the mass audience prefers this. Same with newspapers - less and less text more and more pictures :(

[punisa]

I've seen a lot of good documentaries come and go. This culture lives predominantly on the internet. I don't want people to get the idea that I'm bashing Joseph or those who follow him. He has the right idea, but you also have to realize that the conspiracy movement is malleable as hell. This sure as hell isn't going to build a revolutionary party of the working class.

Great post Kassad,
one idea - after watching all 3 movies I realized that its production is not all that fancy as it seems. Its mostly effects done with Sony Vegas and Adobe Premiere video software.
There are many genuine leftists who have such skills.
Why don't we create a movie with a similar design appeal, but make it a purely Marxist / socialist propaganda?

[Dimentio]

Great post Kassad,
one idea - after watching all 3 movies I realized that its production is not all that fancy as it seems. Its mostly effects done with Sony Vegas and Adobe Premiere video software.
There are many genuine leftists who have such skills.
Why don't we create a movie with a similar design appeal, but make it a purely Marxist / socialist propaganda?

Because communists tend to be unable to cooperate?

"Trotsky! Mao! Stalin! Hoxha! Avakian!"

Of course, TZM has had it's fair share of splits, but for the moment, there seems to be less sectarianism there.

[Q]

Great post Kassad,
one idea - after watching all 3 movies I realized that its production is not all that fancy as it seems. Its mostly effects done with Sony Vegas and Adobe Premiere video software.
There are many genuine leftists who have such skills.
Why don't we create a movie with a similar design appeal, but make it a purely Marxist / socialist propaganda?
I point to the failure of The Leftist Video Project (http://www.revleft.com/vb/group.php?groupid=354).

[Rusty Shackleford]

Great post Kassad,
one idea - after watching all 3 movies I realized that its production is not all that fancy as it seems. Its mostly effects done with Sony Vegas and Adobe Premiere video software.
There are many genuine leftists who have such skills.
Why don't we create a movie with a similar design appeal, but make it a purely Marxist / socialist propaganda?


editing in the style of Zeitgeist would just creep people the fuck out. its already brain-washy enough. no need to actually make the message serious.

[NewSocialist]

I saw the second one a while back. They seem to promote Skinner's behaviorist bullshit, which Chomsky debunked ages ago. In my eyes they lack serious credibility because of that.

[Delenda Carthago]

I point to the failure of The Leftist Video Project (http://www.revleft.com/vb/group.php?groupid=354).
What about?

[Dimentio]

Sadly, Marxism as a brand name is already associated with negative traits.

TZM was bound to happen. Even if there was Marshall Brain or Andrew Wallace instead of Jacque Fresco as a symbol, and even if it was for example Maja Borg instead of Peter Joseph, it would have happened in some form.

I agree though that it could have happened in a better way.

[TheGeekySocialist]

someone linked me the first one earler, I have not watched it yet though, I do not really know what it is?

[Q]

someone linked me the first one earler, I have not watched it yet though, I do not really know what it is?

Forget the first one, this one is immeasurably better.

[Die Neue Zeit]

Maybe I don't get the earlier conversations here, but is the Zeitgeist Movement's agitation based on conspiracy theories?

One Born Every Minute: Blog on Agitation and Demagogues (http://www.revleft.com/vb/one-born-every-t144497/index.html) (note my reply to my OP repost of the blog)

http://www.revleft.com/vb/zeitgeist-addendum-t147038/index.html?p=1973268

http://www.revleft.com/vb/confusion-ruling-class-t147121/index.html?p=1969996

I'd like to see them do a Protocols of the Chambers of Commerce and Federations of Small Businesses work or something like that.

[Dimentio]

http://www.social-innovation.org/?p=1800

Here is a review of Zeitgeist: Moving Forward.

[pranabjyoti]

It's useless. They just want to cut costs of research by having no employees. But, they themselves neither have the proper infrastructure, nor the funding ability to test and improve new ideas.

[Dimentio]

It's useless. They just want to cut costs of research by having no employees. But, they themselves neither have the proper infrastructure, nor the funding ability to test and improve new ideas.

Uhh?

:blink:

[Dimentio]

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This is the explaining both the beauty of the Zeitgeist Movement and why it would most likely not succeed in having any deeper impact.

[Sinister Cultural Marxist]

"Jesus is the SON OF God because this is a metaphor for the SUN GOD!"

I mean, what more can you say? My friend showed it to me in college and thought it was kind of cool, but the first one seemed more like conspiratorial loony toons mixed with a few well cherry picked facts. Why should i think this one is any different if it is associated with the first?

[The Vegan Marxist]

"Jesus is the SON OF God because this is a metaphor for the SUN GOD!"

I mean, what more can you say? My friend showed it to me in college and thought it was kind of cool, but the first one seemed more like conspiratorial loony toons mixed with a few well cherry picked facts. Why should i think this one is any different if it is associated with the first?

Zeitgeist 1 didn't really do that well in explaining how Jesus was a myth. If you really want to get more into it, you need to actually read from professional archaeologists & egyptologists, etc. I recommend you getting a copy of "Christ in Egypt: The Horus-Jesus Connection" by D.M. Murdock.

http://www.amazon.com/Christ-Egypt-Horus-Jesus-Connection-Murdock/dp/0979963117

[Kassad]

Zeitgeist 1 didn't really do that well in explaining how Jesus was a myth. If you really want to get more into it, you need to actually read from professional archaeologists & egyptologists, etc. I recommend you getting a copy of "Christ in Egypt: The Horus-Jesus Connection" by D.M. Murdock.

http://www.amazon.com/Christ-Egypt-Horus-Jesus-Connection-Murdock/dp/0979963117

I read her book 'The Christ Conspiracy." It's actually pretty fascinating, but it doesn't exactly take a scholar to show that modern religion is comprised of assorted ancient ones, which became intermixed as countries conquered and assimilated each other. Hell, the Romans just re-named the Greek gods and called it a new religion. Christianity dominated the Pagans and trust me, they didn't just take all of their holidays.

Regardless, it's a good read. It's the 9/11 truth aspect of the first movie that is also incredibly hilarious.

[Dimentio]

Zeitgeist I was shit.

Zeitgeist II was quite alright.

Zeitgeist III is a very good film.

In my opinion.

[Dimentio]

BbPtt6802s4

They have started to comment actual events and creating a Grand Narrative.

[The Vegan Marxist]

I read her book 'The Christ Conspiracy." It's actually pretty fascinating, but it doesn't exactly take a scholar to show that modern religion is comprised of assorted ancient ones, which became intermixed as countries conquered and assimilated each other. Hell, the Romans just re-named the Greek gods and called it a new religion. Christianity dominated the Pagans and trust me, they didn't just take all of their holidays.

Regardless, it's a good read. It's the 9/11 truth aspect of the first movie that is also incredibly hilarious.

The christ conspiracy went into really interesting topics and research. I have a copy of it as well. Though, Christ in Egypt is a lot better in my opinion, and has loads more research done on it than the Christ Conspiracy. If you ever have the time, you should try and read it.

[Q]

BbPtt6802s4

They have started to comment actual events and creating a Grand Narrative.

One bit that struck me: in the last few seconds the only mention Zeitgeist Addendum (2) and Zeitgeist Moving Forward (3). It seems they've really completely abandoned the conspiracy crap of the first Zeitgeist as a thing of the past :)

[The Vegan Marxist]

One bit that struck me: in the last few seconds the only mention Zeitgeist Addendum (2) and Zeitgeist Moving Forward (3). It seems they've really completely abandoned the conspiracy crap of the first Zeitgeist as a thing of the past :)

Yes, it was about a year or so ago where Peter Joseph announced that he was done with the 9/11 conspiracy movement and was going to put all his efforts on the Zeitgeist Movement and the Venus Project. Didn't make Alex Jones very happy. :D :thumbup1:

[Kassad]

Yes, it was about a year or so ago where Peter Joseph announced that he was done with the 9/11 conspiracy movement and was going to put all his efforts on the Zeitgeist Movement and the Venus Project. Didn't make Alex Jones very happy. :D :thumbup1:

Not trying to revive a dead topic, but did he publicly repudiate that idiotic position?

[The Vegan Marxist]

Not trying to revive a dead topic, but did he publicly repudiate that idiotic position?

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/03/17/nyregion/17zeitgeist.html?_r=1

[human strike]

Why are they so reluctant to use the word capitalism? It's really fucking annoying.

[Haine Copii]

I agree with @A Revolutionary Tool :)

[progressive_lefty]

I've just watched the new 3rd one. It was a good film, I think there is value in the fact that they don't embrace a particular political ideology (like Marxism). I think that is workable, considering some who watch the film cannot just treat it as another annoying realist leftwing documentary. I think that means the film can influence others who might embrace the failures of the current global economic system. In my personal opinion, the film tries to sit itself as being critical of the Government from a Ron Paul conservative perspective and emphasises the destruction of the global economic system from a humanitarian leftwing perspective.

I knew a Swedish guy that was from a wealthy family who was really enlightened by Zeitgeist 2 and how it explained the debt system. I think that demonstrates that the Zeitgeist film can go beyond its former conspiracy focus, and discuss the madness of the global economic system. And people can't just write it off as a Marxist attempt to take over the world.