girl, 9, and father shot dead by anti-immigrant vigilantes

[bcbm]

'Please don't shoot me:' Girl, nine, begged for her life before she and her father were shot dead by 'anti-immigrant vigilantes'


A nine-year-old girl begged for her life before being shot dead along with her father by an anti-immigrant vigilante group, a court heard.

Brisenia Flores was gunned down at point-blank range in her own home in Flores, Arizona, as her terrified mother Gina Gonzalez, who had also been hit, played dead on the floor.

She sobbed as the court was told how she had heard Brisenia's desperate pleas as her killer stood over her.

'I can hear it happening,' Mrs Flores told the court describing how her daughter said: 'Why did you shoot my dad? Why did you shoot my mum?'

'I can hear her telling him to "please don't shoot me."'
The prosecution alleges that the child and her father Raul Flores Jr were murdered in May 30, 2009 by a group of vigilantes set up to tackle Mexican immigrants.
The shootings took place 200 miles from Tucson, the scene of the gun massacre earlier this month in which another nine-year-old girl died.

Shawna Forde, the head of the Minutemen American Defence group, is on trial accused of two charges of first degree murder.

She is allegedly orchestrated the attack on the Flores family with two male accomplices, due to face face court in.March.


Police claim that Forde believed Mr Flores was a drug trafficker and would have cash and goods in the house which they could use to fund their patrols.

She reportedly led the raid and gave instructions to the male accomplices.






continued: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1350721/Girl-9-father-shot-dead-anti-immigrant-vigilantes-begged-life.html#ixzz1CGGSxAHr

[Toppler]

Seriously FUCK THESE ASSHOLES. Fuck them. They deserve a hanging, and on a short rope.

[khad]

But-but you can't expand the oppressive capitalist state by building up its legalistic apparatus! It's reactionary to expect a reactionary institution like the capitalist state to give justice. Only when we have a stateless, classless society built overnight by a global anarcho socialist revolution can we even begin the task of tackling problems like hate crimes and aggravated murder!

http://www.revleft.com/vb/19-year-old-t148937/index.html?p=2003034#post2003034


Not "usually." Always and only. The capitalist state does not exist to protect gay people. It exists to protect capital. A part of that is keeping things orderly and punishing those that break the rules (which themselves fluctuate according to the needs of capital). It can punish individuals accused of murder to any degree it sees fit at the time, but its actions reflect its interests, which are totally different from those of the working class.

It's beyond absurd to look to the capitalist state in search of justice. You expect "justice" from a ruling class drenched in blood? You expect it from the same bodies that break strikes, smash revolutionary organizations and jail millions forced into crime by the very system they rest on and defend?

No thanks. What's needed is for that state to be smashed, not strengthened. Only the abolition of class society and all the poison that comes along with it will allow us to become genuinely human. Only under those conditions will shit like homophobia and racism break down. They certainly won't be eliminated by dictate from the armed bodies that represent the same class that perpetuates the garbage to begin with!

:rolleyes:

[PhoenixAsh]

Do you honestly think the courts give a flying f* about this family?

They represent a state that clamps down on immigration, that illegalises and criminalises immigrants...this is exactly what happens if you criminalise people and blame them for the wrongs in society.

These killings are as far as I am concerned nothing more than an extention of US government policies and the politics of reactionary capitalists who exploit differences and fear to subjegate people and try to focus the attention away from the real issue: immigrants try to get to the US because of capitalist expansionism and imperialism caussed their country to be poor in the freaking first place.

Evidence of that is the the US restrict immigration and uses harsh repression but does nothing to take away its causes.

As such these murderers are produced by such a system that allows vigilante groups to exist in the first place....but clamps down on groups protecting the rights and lives of immigrants.

And you expect courts that are there to protect such a system to be able to hand out justice???

Its treatment of the symptoms at best. The purpetrators stand trial...but the real causes and offenders do NOT get to stand trial. They get away. as such justice is is symptomatic.


I am sorry Khad, with all respect...but your post is a bit low. Both towards NHIA and towards what he was saying. Aswel as a first response to the tragedy that OP posted.

[Magón]

Alright, so with the sickening act aside, the woman, Shawna Forde, is a fucking moron.

1. I do believe that using drug money to finance your own operation (whatever it may be) is illegal in the US, so shouldn't she go to jail regardless of the sickening act she and the two male accomplices did? I mean, what kind of fucking moron, unless she was really just trying to muscle her way into getting some of the action money, admits to trying to honestly fund their group with drug money? (If in fact, the father was a drug trafficker.)

2. It was clearly a hate crime, over anything, since they shot the little girl. Then the conservative whites in Arizona wonder why Mexicans get all heated over this. We're not killing white kids, they're killing ours! (I mean, has anyone heard of a drug related story, or even hate crime in Arizona or anywhere along the US/Mexico border, that has Mexicans (whether drug dealers or not), killing a white kid and his/her family? :cursing: )

[khad]

Do you honestly think the courts give a flying f* about this family?

They represent a state that clamps down on immigration, that illegalises and criminalises immigrants...this is exactly what happens if you criminalise people and blame them for the wrongs in society.
So, like an ultraleft you think it's worthless to push courts to enforce laws against hate crimes and racially motivated murder?

Of course, for people who have no legal recourse, there has always been the proletarian justice of punishment killings and retributive violence. But more people on this site have problems with that as well.

[PhoenixAsh]

So, like an ultraleft you think it's worthless to push courts to enforce laws against hate crimes and racially motivated murder?

Of course, for people who have no legal recourse, there has always been the proletarian justice of punishment killings and retributive violence. But more people on this site have problems with that as well.

I will like to remind you of your statement:



It's reactionary to expect a reactionary institution like the capitalist state to give justice.Now deleting parts of my posts does not hide the fact that I said them




And you expect courts that are there to protect such a system to be able to hand out justice???


The word I take offence with is justice. Do NOT try to make this about anything else than your notion that a capitalist state which thrives on creatying diversity, by playing people against each other and exists purely for the protection of capital can hand out anything that resembles justice.

I think the notion of justice in a capitalist society is blatantly stupid. The issue is that the society sets the parameters and creates the climate for these hate crimes to be committed in the first place. There can be no justice because not all the culprits are in the defendants seats.

The courts only can and will extract vengeance. That is not justice that is retribution. Retribution to placate the victims and to placate popular sentiment so that the system that made the crime happen can be maintained. Do not confuse the two. They are very different.


I also have a clear opinion of the fact that you use this thread to mock, redicule and belittle a member for remarks he made in another thread about part of a discussion that was not present here in this thread while he was not present in this thread. As you being a Mod I think that is way off line. Not only does it troll this thread but its also an undisguised ad hominem.

[scarletghoul]

I will like to remind you of your statement:
Khad was uhh joking. taking the piss out of a ridiculous ultraleft position on another thread. Its amazing that someone takes that position seriously even in its most sarcastic and most crazy possible context

[Princess Luna]

isn't making a post, that has nothing to do with the topic in a attempt to provoke people you disagree with known as flaming?

[PhoenixAsh]

Khad was uhh joking. taking the piss out of a ridiculous ultraleft position on another thread. Its amazing that someone takes that position seriously even in its most sarcastic and most crazy possible context

No...he was not. You particpated in that thread...so you should know.

I do not think that
1). notion that its incredibly stupid to debate how high a sentence should be in a capitalist society
or
2). how much we shouldexpand the capitalist societies rights to pursue and prosecute
and
3). we should be better off discussing how we can end the capitalist society so that these crimes will not be committed anymore.
are ridiculous./..or at the least debate how we can lessen the root causes for these crimes.


To give you an example of the first two:

1). higher punishment increases, according to criminological scientific studies, the likelyhood that crimes will escalate in violence. Longer and harsher sentences in stricter regimes reduce the chance to rehabilitate a criminal.

2). We all dislike childporn. Well...childporn is now being used on a daily basis to enforce stricter and more expanded police laws to invade privacy. Do you think they care about the children? Or do you think they care about being able to invade our privacy?

[khad]

No...he was not. You particpated in that thread...so you should know.
And you should know not to be so dense. Anyone who has read my posts on this forum knows what I think. Must I write sarcasm like this?

WARNING: SARCASM

[PhoenixAsh]

And you should know not to be so dense. Anyone who has read my posts on this forum knows what I think. Must I write sarcasm like this?

WARNING: SARCASM

You can paint it across the walls of the White House for all I care...writing sarcasm across your post does not make it sarcasm.....

And it does not hide the fact that you are in fact arguing the very same point in the other thread that there is justice in a capitalist system....and all sarcastic formulating aside...that is exactly what your post here also implies....and in fact you are now admitting by saying it is sarcasm.

And it also does not disguise the fact that you are here belitteling a member about something he did not say, did not suggest....in another thread than the original post was made.

[Red Commissar]

Stuff like this shows the true nature of the "Minutemen". Heartless and reactionary shitbags.

TBH though I didn't hear of this when it first happened. Only caught wind of it from a posting on MarxMail.

[DragonQuestWes]

Stuff like this shows the true nature of the "Minutemen". Heartless and reactionary shitbags.

Yeah, when you often hear about people who label themselves with any "American Revolution" terms. You know they're going to be fascist and reactionary.

[the last donut of the night]

This is the tragedy of RevLeft: a real tragedy may happen in the outside world, but by the 14th post this thread has already sunk low enough into some theoretical discussion.

[Amphictyonis]

Seriously FUCK THESE ASSHOLES. Fuck them. They deserve a hanging, and on a short rope.

More like education to prevent things like this and I don't mean your average public or private school education I mean they need to be taught who's to blame for all of the industrial jobs leaving America while cheap labor is 'imported'. They need to be taught how NAFTA and the introduction of private property laws in South America has displaced millions of people who have no choice but to come north to survive.


If you want to hold anyone responsible (other than the idiots who did this) hold the capitalists and their media system accountable for brainwashing and creating a population like this. A population of reactionary idiots who don't have a clue as to what this system is really doing. In the end the liberals are no better seeing they're the ones who signed NAFTA into law. The liberals are the ones who dispossessed millions of people in South America with their neoliberal economic polices, their support for right wing puppet regimes etc. The US government has created situations like this and don't for one minute think the capitalists don't want immigrant workers afraid. Afraid to go to jail. Afraid for their lives. Afraid to organize and demand living wages. It's all part of the profit game and these idiots who killed this family are just pawns.

[PhoenixAsh]

The woman, Shawna Forde, has been sentenced to death after a four hour deliberation in Prima County today for these killings

[Omsk]

Justice has been done!Although if you ask me,these monster's deserve a fate worse than that!Horrible,simply horrible.Land of the free my *[email protected]#^!!

[The Red Next Door]

Oh that very softy of you to say.




Instead of this


Seriously FUCK THESE ASSHOLES. Fuck them. They deserve a hanging, and on a short rope.





It should be


Seriously FUCK THESE SHITHEADS. Fuck them. They deserve to be burn alive in a oven, nazi bastards.


:) much better.

[gorillafuck]

It's annoying as hell when people completely dismiss the idea of the capitalist state doing anything about this because believe it or not, sometimes it will. Usually not, but if you think there's no chance of it doing something about things like this then you're just flat out wrong.

[Red Commissar]

The woman, Shawna Forde, has been sentenced to death after a four hour deliberation in Prima County today for these killings

According to the HuffPost article I read (I'm sorry :( ), they didn't charge her with a hate crime though. What was the reasoning there?

[Princess Luna]

According to the HuffPost article I read (I'm sorry :( ), they didn't charge her with a hate crime though. What was the reasoning there?
All being charged with a hate crime does is get you a worse sentence , she is already getting the max sentence possible there really is no point in going for a hate crime verdict.

[PhoenixAsh]

According to the HuffPost article I read (I'm sorry :( ), they didn't charge her with a hate crime though. What was the reasoning there?

She is sentenced for home invasion with the premeditation to commit murder.

Indeed it is a big problem that she has not been accused and convicted for a hate crime. As Zeekloid indicated some crimes will be punished by a capitalist society but they will stop short of assessing and reparing the underlying causes. As it is the sentence is bullshit individual culpability without the militia's operating around the border being mentioned and put on trial as creating the opportunity for racists and xenophobic biggots to commit such horrible acts.

Also...this is infuriating:
http://www.justiceforshawnaforde.com/




THe defence however did not go with innocent of the crime, but pleaded lessened culpability because of an abusive childhood riddled with religious fanaticism, physical, sexual and mental torture and abandonment. hey argued that her childhood was so traumatised that she should not be put to death because it caused her to be a detached, traumatised, selfish narcisist.

The sentence will be automatically appealed...with a transcrpt of the psychological evaluation going attached to the file.

Forde is now the fourth woman on deathrow and will be put to death by lethal injection.


THats all the info I have.


O...yes....the jury consisted 11 women and 1 man.

[PhoenixAsh]

All being charged with a hate crime does is get you a worse sentence , she is already getting the max sentence possible there really is no point in going for a hate crime verdict.


Yes there is....but it goes beyond this individual case. It does indeed not higher her punishment...I agree....but it sets president and unveils these so called patriots for what they really are.

The situation with the militia around the border is that they are largely unopposed. They are tolerated and enabled by mass media and the political climate.

Charging ex-members with hate crimes serves to indicate their true colors and forms a base to oppose such reactionary biggotted groups as illegal racist elements.

[Tim Finnegan]

Yeah, when you often hear about people who label themselves with any "American Revolution" terms. You know they're going to be fascist and reactionary.
Yeah, it's a weird quirk of America that their ultra-right dress themselves in language and imagery borrowed from what was, in the 18th century, the radical(ish) left. As undesirable as it would, be I'm honestly a little curious to see how a Tea Party-derived fascist movement would actually present themselves.

[ChrisK]

The woman, Shawna Forde, has been sentenced to death after a four hour deliberation in Prima County today for these killings

It took four hours? Too long.

[Chambered Word]

The woman, Shawna Forde, has been sentenced to death after a four hour deliberation in Prima County today for these killings

And nothing of value was lost.

That 'justice for Shawna Forde' site almost made me blow chunks, by the way. Fuck the Minutemen.