Egypt- violent clashes

[ComradeMan]

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/africaandindianocean/egypt/8281865/Egyptians-call-for-Tunisian-style-revolution-in-day-of-wrath.html

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/africaandindianocean/egypt/

[PigmerikanMao]

http://www.cnn.com/2011/WORLD/africa/01/24/winds.change/index.html

I read this yesterday and woke up to violent clashes. Funny how reactionary forces (the opposition to the opposition I suppose) were just saying that a forced change was unlikely.

:rolleyes:

[TheCultofAbeLincoln]

I think it is unlikely that this, a day of protests, will topple a dictator as embedded as Mubarak. But this may only be the begining despite sources like al Jazeera saying that Egypt is getting back to normal today.

Now, if you're refering to the muslim brotherhood then I understand. It seems some leaders are saying they fully support the uprisings while others are being reported as noticeably absent as if they are embracing their role of existing so the West can support Mubarak without feeling bad about itself.

[RGacky3]

I would be very supprised if this revolt takes out the state, but one can hope, but Tunis is an inpiration to the region.

If it topples the dictator, thats HUGE consequences for the region.

[#FF0000]

Imagine it. Today Egypt, tomorrow, Saudi Arabia!

:mellow: dreamin' big I guess.

[Revolution starts with U]

self-determination for all!

Couldn't be happier. Now we can all tell Bud Struggle to get his head out of his ass and realize there are progressive struggles still going on in this world.

... we know Bud. It's easy to think you live in Utopia when you're rich. "Money can't buy happiness" is bullox.

[RGacky3]

If the Egyptian government gets toppled (which again I doubt will happen), uprisings in Saudi Arabia could definately be possible, and if that happens, your looking at a new geo-policial land scape. Your also looking at massiave US intervention, and believe me, it'll be violent intervention. Tunisia is one thing, the US might let that country take a socialistic, or a non-subject state turn. But Egypt is another thing, Saudi Arabia is a WHOLE nother thing.

BTW, Egypt has a very repressive dicatorship, political violence against protesters is expected, so if it can happen in Egypt, thats a big deal.

[TheCultofAbeLincoln]

The US won't intervene in Egypt unless they are given some pretense for it, and as such any intervention would likely be extremely limited. That being said, such an intervention may very well not happen at all.

If Egypt goes, it would be huge, but countries like Jordan, Yemen, and Algeria would be much more influenced than Saudi Arabia I believe. There have been thousands of people protesting in Yemen and Jordan, and as many as dare do it in Algeria, but I there are no reports from Saudi Arabia. I do not mean to sound snooty but I don't think the demographics of Saudi Arabia will make it as likely as many other autocracies in the region.

It really does feel like everything is hinging on egypt though.

[danyboy27]

the us governement is already positioning itself to be on the side of the winner, speaking out about how the egyptian president should let people protest and condemning the violence of the security forces.

On another news, relatives of the president are slowly leaving the country.

hoo and there are protest in Yemen has well.

[RGacky3]

The US won't intervene in Egypt unless they are given some pretense for it, and as such any intervention would likely be extremely limited. That being said, such an intervention may very well not happen at all.


I also doubt the US will intervene too, however, if things in Egypt start going astray, or the new government does not want to play along, I would be suprised if the US does'nt take action, I'm not neccessarily saying invasion btw.


If Egypt goes, it would be huge, but countries like Jordan, Yemen, and Algeria would be much more influenced than Saudi Arabia I believe. There have been thousands of people protesting in Yemen and Jordan, and as many as dare do it in Algeria, but I there are no reports from Saudi Arabia. I do not mean to sound snooty but I don't think the demographics of Saudi Arabia will make it as likely as many other autocracies in the region.

It really does feel like everything is hinging on egypt though.

Thats a good point, however there is a large population in Saudi Arabia that could cause trouble. That being said, yeah, Eygpt could really shake things up.


hoo and there are protest in Yemen has well.

Now THAT is awesome.

[ComradeMan]

Saudi Arabia will be interesting, however the consequences in real terms could also be very dangerous. Mecca is in Saudi Arabia.....

[Bud Struggle]

self-determination for all!

Couldn't be happier. Now we can all tell Bud Struggle to get his head out of his ass and realize there are progressive struggles still going on in this world.

... we know Bud. It's easy to think you live in Utopia when you're rich. "Money can't buy happiness" is bullox.

What in the world makes you think I'm on the side of Middle Eastern dictators? I'm all for these Revolutions. I do hope you don't think they are in any way Communist or anything exotic like that.

These are plain old "people want to be free" sort of Revolutions--the kind that beings pride to the heart of any good American. :)

And oh--money can't buy happiness.

[Dimentio]

I believe that next week would be more violent.

Firstly, Mohamed ElBaradei - a popular Egyptian public profile - is going to partake in the protests, thus legitimising them.

Secondly, the Muslim Brotherhood have finally declared their supports for the protests, and they would bring out manpower.

Sadly, the result would probably be that the Muslim Brotherhood gains power, at latest within the next year.

[ComradeMan]

I believe that next week would be more violent.

Firstly, Mohamed ElBaradei - a popular Egyptian public profile - is going to partake in the protests, thus legitimising them.

Secondly, the Muslim Brotherhood have finally declared their supports for the protests, and they would bring out manpower.

Sadly, the result would probably be that the Muslim Brotherhood gains power, at latest within the next year.

If they get in power--- I predict that hell will break out.

[Dimentio]

If they get in power--- I predict that hell will break out.

What will happen is more of an Anti-western policy, closer alignment to Iran and an open border with the Gaza Strip. If they are stupid, they will scare away lots of educated people.

They are not Al-Qaeda, who are more or less close to the definition of crazy.

[Bud Struggle]

What will happen is more of an Anti-western policy, closer alignment to Iran and an open border with the Gaza Strip. If they are stupid, they will scare away lots of educated people.

They are not Al-Qaeda, who are more or less close to the definition of crazy.

If the Islamic Brotherhood take over the Revolution then it will be a Reactionary Revolution.

[Dimentio]

If the Islamic Brotherhood take over the Revolution then it will be a Reactionary Revolution.

Partially, yes. At the same time, Muslim fundamentalists are not like Evangelical fundamentalists. They support general welfare and wealth re-distribution, since that is an inherent part of the five pillars of Islam.

[Crimson Commissar]

Saudi Arabia will be interesting, however the consequences in real terms could also be very dangerous. Mecca is in Saudi Arabia.....
Yeah, I guess. I really do hope that if a revolution happens in Saudi Arabia, it's a secular one and not some islamist bullshit. We don't need another Iran in the world, despite what all these extreme anti-imperialist "socialists" say about it.

[Bud Struggle]

Partially, yes. At the same time, Muslim fundamentalists are not like Evangelical fundamentalists. They support general welfare and wealth re-distribution, since that is an inherent part of the five pillars of Islam.

They also cut off the hands of theives and stone women for adultry. :rolleyes:

But I agree with your point.

[ComradeMan]

Yeah, I guess. I really do hope that if a revolution happens in Saudi Arabia, it's a secular one and not some islamist bullshit. We don't need another Iran in the world, despite what all these extreme anti-imperialist "socialists" say about it.

Anything that touches Mecca is a barrel of dynamite, not just in Saudi Arabia but throughout the Islamic world.

[Dimentio]

They also cut off the hands of theives and stone women for adultry. :rolleyes:

But I agree with your point.

Well, all those points are actually somewhat increasing their support amongst the Lumpenproletariat, which is a pretty significant part of the Egyptian population.

[Dimentio]

And Comrademan, don't interpret this in any racist way. You seem to hold some notions that Arabs generally are "bad" people.

[ComradeMan]

And Comrademan, don't interpret this in any racist way. You seem to hold some notions that Arabs generally are "bad" people.

No I don't. But I am not blind to the problems of the political movements in the Arabic/Islamic world and the religious dimension of Islam within the political playing field. I've lived and worked in one way or another with Arabic and Islamic peoples most of my life.

[TheCultofAbeLincoln]

Cool report from yesterday, despite the host of the show.

b1CRiNDFJ84

[PhoenixAsh]

cant see the video in my country. :-(

[PhoenixAsh]

No I don't. But I am not blind to the problems of the political movements in the Arabic/Islamic world and the religious dimension of Islam within the political playing field. I've lived and worked in one way or another with Arabic and Islamic peoples most of my life.


I think these concerns are well founded in historical fact. The popular uprising in Iran for example...did not really lead to something better.

once the MB gets involved in Egypt there is reason to be concerned. they might not be as "mad" as Al Quaeda...but they are not your avarage friendly neighbor either.

[danyboy27]

Recent news:
The Egyptian governement shut down internet services in the whole country.

Protest growing fast, masses of protester seen in ALexendria, Suez and Cairo, big protest planned for tomorow.

Protester are getting more and more agressive toward law enforcement official.

Source AP.

n the flashpoint city of Suez, east of Cairo, witnesses said rioters -- some wearing surgical masks to ward off tear gas -- firebombed the main fire station and firefighters jumped out windows to escape the flames, as heavy black smoke billowed from the building. In the northern Sinai area of Sheik Zuweid, several hundred Bedouins and police exchanged live gunfire, killing a 17-year-old man. About 300 protesters surrounded a police station from rooftops of nearby buildings and fired two RPGs at it, damaging the walls.

[Bright Banana Beard]

RPGing at the police station!? The GTA couldn't even do THAT!!

[Red Commissar]

Recent news:
The Egyptian governement shut down internet services in the whole country.


SMS services have been blocked too from some accounts I'm reading.

[#FF0000]

4XnhHzs91MY

kWr6MypZ-JU

I'm pretty scared to think about what they're gonna do to people now that they can't get video on youtube.

[ComradeMan]

I don't think Mubarak will go like the Tunisian President did. Of course let's not forget Egypts strategic position with both a border with Israel and the Suez Canal.

[Dean]

No I don't. But I am not blind to the problems of the political movements in the Arabic/Islamic world and the religious dimension of Islam within the political playing field. I've lived and worked in one way or another with Arabic and Islamic peoples most of my life.

But if you say something against Israel, you're an anti-semite. Makes perfect sense.

[Bright Banana Beard]

The protestors control most of the city and some riot police are giving up.

[Bud Struggle]

You know--these guys just might do it. :thumbup:

[TheCultofAbeLincoln]

I'm starting to believe it too. Maybe...just maybe.

I'm way too young to remember Eastern Europe telling the soviet lackeys to beat it, but I can't imagine it was any more epic than this.

update: according to the guardian, Mubarak is going to address the country soon while Al Jazeera office in Cairo is being raided by the police.

[RGacky3]

It seams the US is getting a little bit scared, if this revolt takes a populist turn, I don't know, I think theres gonna be some US interferance (not to save Mubarak, at least when its clear he's a lost cause, but maybe the military, or some existing party or something).

[ComradeMan]

But if you say something against Israel, you're an anti-semite. Makes perfect sense.

You should infract yourself for trolling.

I didn't think the analysis here was so crude as to be "saying things against Israel".... :rolleyes:

[Bright Banana Beard]

Most of the police and the riot police in Egypt has now given up. Now the protestors are facing the army and there have been reports that the army are shooting the protestors. This case might be similar as in 1980's Nicaguara.

[danyboy27]

You should infract yourself for trolling.

I didn't think the analysis here was so crude as to be "saying things against Israel".... :rolleyes:

BTW the Israel decided to evacuate their people who where residing at the embassy in egypt, took a chopper and left egypt.

the israeli governement also said they where confident that the president will be able to overcome the protest and restore order.

those guy obviously didnt heard that protester took over the national tv station, supposedly protected by the army.

also rumor of clashes between the cops and the army.

he will restore order.

yea...

[ComradeMan]

Hosni Mubarak is a clever fox- I don't think it will be so easy to push him out of power.

[Che a chara]

Robert Gibbs is a plonker. can he not answer a question ? he's just repeating the same one and two lines over and over.

The US call for social and economic reforms as they still want the same regime in place that is subservient to their selfish interests in the Middle East and a tool for US imperialism.

I say Mubarak is a goner.

I can already hear the elitist and supremacist USA right-wing and political elite moaning about how this will see their standing and influence dwindle.... well tough noogies. Fuck imperialism and US foreign domination/interference. the world doesn't revolve around you.

[danyboy27]

Hosni Mubarak is a clever fox- I don't think it will be so easy to push him out of power.


a 80 year old senile fox with no support from its population.

Rumor spreading that the army might take him over.

[ComradeMan]

a 80 year old senile fox with no support from its population.

Rumor spreading that the army might take him over.

Don't hold your breath.... ;) I may be wrong but he has survived a lot of shit in his time.

[Red Commissar]

Protesters pushing riot police back across the Kasr al-Nile Bridge:

j_kjIVzJRfY


Don't hold your breath.... ;) I may be wrong but he has survived a lot of shit in his time.

Nothing this widespread in his term though. There've been protests, arrests, electoral disputes, etc, but nothing that spawned demos of this size. Problem I'm seeing is that in the event he is removed, they might just do what Tunisia did and retain the state apparatus, just a different face to represent it but continue much of the same policies. ElBaradei, for instance...

[RGacky3]

I'm saying he's a gonner too, this sort of thing is too big to stop, even if the initial uprisings don't overthrow the government, the organization is done and permanent damage has been done to the system, I'm betting the guy is looking for a way out, a retirement villa somewhere is in the works.

(thats how big criminals serve their time, in a big villa in some friendly country with your loved ones near by, the small ciminals get pelican bay).

Whats gonna be MOST interesting is seeing how the US reacts from what comes out of this situation, considering economics is a huge part of the issue (it usually is), a populist outcome is very possible, that would be unnacceptable for the US and what happens will be very interesting.

Saudi Arabia might also intervene along with the US, it would not suprise me.

I really really hope that the people win.

[danyboy27]

Nothing this widespread in his term though. There've been protests, arrests, electoral disputes, etc, but nothing that spawned demos of this size. Problem I'm seeing is that in the event he is removed, they might just do what Tunisia did and retain the state apparatus, just a different face to represent it but continue much of the same policies. ElBaradei, for instance...

Tunisia purged most of the state aparatus, but left most of the structure intact.

that not a bad thing if you ask me.

[#FF0000]

GUYS BREAKING NEWS

the situation is fluid and being monitored

MORE AT 11

[RGacky3]

Tunisia purged most of the state aparatus, but left most of the structure intact.

that not a bad thing if you ask me.

Tunisia is still happening, don't close the book yet.

[RGacky3]

GUYS BREAKING NEWS

the situation is fluid and being monitored

MORE AT 11


YOu tease, but this is so much better than another argument about some decades dead dictator, or another argument about market laws and property rights (which have been done for ever and ever), I would much rather analyse things actually going on.

[Che a chara]

Fox 'news' terror analyst just reporting that the US's 50+ year policy of supporting dictators/fascists in the Middle East will come back and kick the USA in the ass. Good.

[danyboy27]

some minor protest happening in Jordan has well.


I bet the israeli governement is losing its shit right now.

if mubarak fall, they wont have much friend in the neighborhood anymore.

Obama dosnt seem to be able to communicate with mubarak.
There are some rumor about his health.

From all we know the army might just be in power right now.

[¿Que?]

Ok, so barring any military action against the protesters, I think it's safe to say Mubarak is a gonner, right? I mean, they burned the ruling party's headquarters, and Mubarak is currently MIA (watching the AlJazeera live stream :thumbup1:).

So what now?

[Os Cangaceiros]

I would guess that if Mubarak steps down, then a new coalition government would be formed with the Muslim Brotherhood being the dominant party. But I admittedly don't know much about the situation. It's pretty exciting, though, with all the unrest spreading through N. Africa and the Middle East.

[RGacky3]

So what now, I don't think anyone knows, it seams that the military might take control, but I'm hoping that does'nt happen.

What we might very well see happen is a type of Oaxaca situation, you have a revolt, popular power takes hold for a bit, then the military comes in and starts murdering people untill things cool down.

BTW, i LOVE how the US kind of got caught with their thumb in their ass.

Tunisia Revolt: "WE SUPPORT DEMOCRACY AND HUMAN RIGHTS AND ....."

Eygpt Revolt: "ohhhh .... ummmm ..... errr stability ..... ummm the region, oh no."

No one is really talking about the popular power option, and it mostly likely will not be allowed to happen.

Btw, US, this is what happens when people are unemployed, homeless and hungry for too long, and thats where your heading.

[danyboy27]

So what now, I don't think anyone knows, it seams that the military might take control, but I'm hoping that does'nt happen.

What we might very well see happen is a type of Oaxaca situation, you have a revolt, popular power takes hold for a bit, then the military comes in and starts murdering people untill things cool down.

BTW, i LOVE how the US kind of got caught with their thumb in their ass.

Tunisia Revolt: "WE SUPPORT DEMOCRACY AND HUMAN RIGHTS AND ....."

Eygpt Revolt: "ohhhh .... ummmm ..... errr stability ..... ummm the region, oh no."

No one is really talking about the popular power option, and it mostly likely will not be allowed to happen.

Btw, US, this is what happens when people are unemployed, homeless and hungry for too long, and thats where your heading.

I doubt it, the Army in Egypt is a deeply respected institution, and i doubt the current generals are willing to be historicly known has the men responsable of turning against their own peoples.

Nobody want to leave blood on the hand of the egyptian army.
or at least no egyptian blood.

[RGacky3]

I doubt the muslim brotherhood will be a dominant force, they've been really marginalized recently.

BTW, I just heard (Al Jazeera) christian protesters were protecting muslim protesters while they prayed, brings a tear to my eye.

[danyboy27]

I doubt the muslim brotherhood will be a dominant force, they've been really marginalized recently.

BTW, I just heard (Al Jazeera) christian protesters were protecting muslim protesters while they prayed, brings a tear to my eye.

agree with you on that one.

egyptians are extremely progressive, the only reason the brotherhood had some kind support is beccause they where the only one breaking shit.

Now everyone is breaking shit.

[RGacky3]

Seeing them black and red flags, man I really don't want to hope too much, but this is looking good, especially if the military won't take over.

But I'm withholding my hope, I had hopes in Atenco and Oaxaca. But if the people win some power I'll be happy.

[Red Commissar]

Al Jazeera reports that influential businessmen and VIPs have boarded a private plane and have left to an undisclosed location.

Edit:

Atlantic posted some images from a pamphlet in some protests:

http://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2011/01/egyptian-activists-action-plan-translated/70388/
http://assets.theatlantic.com/static/mt/assets/science/assets_c/2011/01/Page%201_rev2-thumb-600x424-41204.jpg
http://assets.theatlantic.com/static/mt/assets/science/assets_c/2011/01/Page%202_rev2-thumb-600x424-41209.jpg
http://assets.theatlantic.com/static/mt/assets/science/assets_c/2011/01/Page%203_rev-thumb-600x424-41211.jpg
http://assets.theatlantic.com/static/mt/assets/science/assets_c/2011/01/Page%204_rev-thumb-600x424-41213.jpg
http://assets.theatlantic.com/static/mt/assets/science/assets_c/2011/01/Page%2010_rev-thumb-600x424-41215.jpg
http://assets.theatlantic.com/static/mt/assets/science/assets_c/2011/01/Page%2012_rev-thumb-600x424-41218.jpg
http://assets.theatlantic.com/static/mt/assets/science/assets_c/2011/01/Page%2013_rev2-thumb-600x424-41222.jpg
http://assets.theatlantic.com/static/mt/assets/science/assets_c/2011/01/Page%2022_rev-thumb-600x424-41225.jpg
http://assets.theatlantic.com/static/mt/assets/science/assets_c/2011/01/Page%2026_rev-thumb-600x424-41227.jpg

[RGacky3]

The protesters are protecting museums and the such, I'm hoping against hope that some sort of popular institutions take form.

[Che a chara]

speculation that Marabak will announce his stepping down shortly and that his family have fled the country (according to press.tv)

[Bud Struggle]

The key to this is the military. If they joing the revolt--or at least stand on the sidelines the Revolutionaries may win. If they move against the people--the people will loose.

These countries have no real use for a "military" except for situations like this.

[Red Commissar]

The protesters are protecting museums and the such, I'm hoping against hope that some sort of popular institutions take form.

The NDP's HQ that is on fire is right next to the Cairo Museum. If that's the case this is the image:

http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&source=s_q&hl=en&geocode=&q=+30%C2%B0+2'51.32%22N,++31%C2%B013'57.03%22E&aq=&sll=37.0625,-95.677068&sspn=55.016555,79.013672&ie=UTF8&ll=30.04729,31.233026&spn=0.003715,0.004823&t=h&z=18

The people are keeping looters out, but they'll need firefighters to keep the fire at bay.

[Red Commissar]

Al Jazeera Live has Mubarak giving a speech. Can't tell if it's live or pre-recorded.

[Bright Banana Beard]

Let's hope this will spread to Jordan, Saudi Arabia, Yemen, and other US-backed dictatorships across the world.

[Che a chara]

Unbelievable, the filth seems as if he's still in control !! :(

[Bud Struggle]

Let's hope this will spread to Jordan, Saudi Arabia, Yemen, and other US-backed dictatorships across the world.

Cuba and North Korea, too! :)

[Che a chara]

He says Egypt will implement social and economic reforms to modernize the country and his allegiance is to the poor people and will embrace new health, employment and housing services and new freedoms to citizens

what is this guy trying to pull here ?

[¿Que?]

How about the US?

[¿Que?]

Y ahora van a ver la violencia que viene!!!- immortal technique...

Just saying, we can expect violent repression now, no? Possibly some terrorism in the near future if the demonstrations are squelched...

[Che a chara]

Murabak is blaming everyone but himself for everything, including the demonstrations and the ensuing violence on the demonstrators and the security forces and the poor economy on the government. what an ass. he sacked the entire government, but he stays. This vermin must be overthrown.

>>democracy please<<

[Bud Struggle]

what is this guy trying to pull here ?

Come on! Lets all be FRIENDS! :)

[danyboy27]

He says Egypt will implement social and economic reforms to modernize the country and his allegiance is to the poor people and will embrace new health, employment and housing services and new freedoms to citizens

what is this guy trying to pull here ?

nothing new, ben ali did something similar before being forced to leave his country.

[#FF0000]

So, Mubarak fired his entire government except for himself.

[Bardo]

nothing new, ben ali did something similar before being forced to leave his country.

Exactly.

He's trying to sweet talk his way out of this but I dont see him remaining in power. I give it less than a week before he flees.

[RGacky3]

Hes done, the army probably won't back him.

The best thing would be for them to do nothing at all, if they join the protests they might try and lead it and that might end up as a military government (the generals I'm talking about), but don't be suprised of the US does'nt "approach" the Eygptian military.

[Che a chara]

Come on! Lets all be FRIENDS! :)

All ? erm, no !! :) i don't do nice with liars or fascists.

[danyboy27]

So, Mubarak fired his entire government except for himself.

what do you expect from a senile dictator drunk with power and money?

''Look at me, i am mubarak, i have one of the biggest army in the middle east and have been reelected for 31 year now.''

[#FF0000]

what do you expect from a senile dictator drunk with power and money?

''Look at me, i am mubarak, i have one of the biggest army in the middle east and have been reelected for 31 year now.''

The leader of the army was the first guy he fired.

It's like he is asking for a Coup.

[danyboy27]

The leader of the army was the first guy he fired.

It's like he is asking for a Coup.

holy shit whut.

he fired the leader of the army?

hoo man he is so done.

[TheCultofAbeLincoln]

It seams the US is getting a little bit scared, if this revolt takes a populist turn, I don't know, I think theres gonna be some US interferance (not to save Mubarak, at least when its clear he's a lost cause, but maybe the military, or some existing party or something).

They now say they are "reviewing" aid to Egypt, and Clinton is obviously becoming more and more on the side of the protests in tone.

What they are trying to avoid is this turning into another Shah moment and the US losing all ties to the largest country in the region in my opinion.

[danyboy27]

i can imagine millions of american that learned while watching tv that the us financed the egyptian military.

[Bright Banana Beard]

Pan-Arabism is more progressive than many nations. It is possible that there will be renewal of Pan-arabism and bringing back United Arab Republic

[danyboy27]

Pan-Arabism is more progressive than many nations. It is possible that there will be renewal of Pan-arabism and bringing back United Arab Republic

that not for tomorow, not until somebody topple saudi arabia.

[ComradeMan]

They now say they are "reviewing" aid to Egypt, and Clinton is obviously becoming more and more on the side of the protests in tone.

What they are trying to avoid is this turning into another Shah moment and the US losing all ties to the largest country in the region in my opinion.

What they are probably doing is shitting themselves about who is going to control the a) the Suez Canal and b) the borders with Israel. ;)

[Bud Struggle]

It seems the US is sideing with the protesters.



The White House (http://www.nypost.com/t/White_House)threatened to cut off $1.5 billion in annual aid to Egypt if the brutal crackdown on pro-democracy demonstrators continues.
"Obviously, we will be reviewing our assistance posture based on events now and in the coming days," President Obama's spokesman, Robert Gibbs, told reporters.
The blunt warning, coupled with an appeal from Secretary of State Hillary Rodham Clinton for restraint, was seen in the Mideast as an attempt by the Obama administration to ease 82-year-old President Hosni Mubarak out of office.

http://www.nypost.com/p/news/international/egypt_ultimatum_m5HcDf3DRtL5LvH85VL9NP


That 1.5 billion is a big playing card. If the US plays this right they might come out smelling like a rose.

[Sasha]

It seems the US is sideing with the protesters.



http://www.nypost.com/p/news/international/egypt_ultimatum_m5HcDf3DRtL5LvH85VL9NP


That 1.5 billion is a big playing card. If the US plays this right they might come out smelling like a rose.

like i said in the non OI thread, i predict that by the end of the weekend the military will have removed mubarak, el baradei will be asked to lead an transition goverment with some participation or at least some consesions towards the muslim brotherhood. any one have an alternate likely scenario?

[Bud Struggle]

^^^You think the military will be the "broker" in all of this? That will still leave them in a position of power no matter what happens.

A coup inside a Revolution. I agree with your apprasal, though.

[Sasha]

Yup, the army has an special independent and respected status in Egypt. lots of reports show protesters calling on the military to protect tjem against the cops. also the Muslim brotherhood called on the military to remove Mubarak. and since there are already longer signs that the military was opposed against Mubarak Jr as heir apparent I see a big chance they will. it seems that the military is already very reluctant to use force against the protesters.

[redsky]

I have heard reports of army units standing off and fraternizing with the people. Like all, I am cautious - these Entrenched Powers are good at using force and weaselly morphing themselves into a new version of what they were- but this is powerful stuff. And let Arabia catchafire. If it did, which is still unlikely, all the stakes on the table will be called. Massive western intervention or a tectonic shift in the region- either will be better than the current reality. Maybe the region-wide proliferation of McDonalds so cited and embraced by Herr Limbaugh will rather suddenly wither away.

[Che a chara]

I don't think the Muslim Brotherhood will have that much influence in things. Sure they might get some representation, but i'm not buying that they will lead the revolution. Typically Fox 'news' are focusing on these 'world jihadist muzzies' and the scaremongering and lies being spouted by the likes of Sean Hannity was quite disturbing and very distortive about the facts on the ground and of course Fox's entire angle is on Islamic xenophobia, sky-rocketing oil prices and US interests.

The military do look like the best bet for the 'overthrow' and whatever happens after that is anyones guess.

[Bud Struggle]

The military do look like the best bet for the 'overthrow' and whatever happens after that is anyones guess.

And the military is almost completely funded by the USA.

Small world.

[Che a chara]

And the military is almost completely funded by the USA.

Small world.

Well they've just sworn in a vice president (for the first time since Mubarak took over in 1981) who is also very much militarily connected. So far it's been reported that he will be a popular choice despite also being the ex-head of the secret police and also being a negotiator with Hamas, the P.A. and Israel.

Swings and flipping roundabouts.

[Che a chara]

Form the 'The Arab World Protests' - 'Protests in Egypt' (http://www.revleft.com/vb/protests-egypt-t148815/index.html) thread:


http://anti-dialectics.co.uk/made%20in%20the%20USA.jpg

Made in the good old U.S. of A !! Spreading democracy by use of gas !!!

[Sasha]

al jazeera is grilling an goverment official, "if there are mobs on the streets you should talk about the mubarak crowd during the elections"

[Bud Struggle]

Made in the good old U.S. of A !! Spreading democracy by use of gas !!!

These are definitely things that the US should be outsourcing. :)

[TheCultofAbeLincoln]

i can imagine millions of american that learned while watching tv that the us financed the egyptian military.

No doubt many americans heard the name "Mubarak" for the first time, let alone that we're his financier.

[Red Commissar]

Form the 'The Arab World Protests' - 'Protests in Egypt' (http://www.revleft.com/vb/protests-egypt-t148815/index.html) thread:



Made in the good old U.S. of A !! Spreading democracy by use of gas !!!

If you want more of those check out the gallery that one was one (121 pics I believe)

totallycoolpix.com/2011/01/the-egypt-protests/

http://totallycoolpix.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/28012011_egypte_riots/egypte_22.jpg
A dead beduion being carried away after being shot dead

http://totallycoolpix.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/28012011_egypte_riots/egypte_01.jpg
Young protesters face off against police

http://totallycoolpix.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/28012011_egypte_riots/egypte_13.jpg
Plain clothes police

http://totallycoolpix.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/28012011_egypte_riots/egypte_58.jpg
Demonstrator throws trash at a police vehicle

http://totallycoolpix.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/28012011_egypte_riots/egypte_64.jpg
People getting water cannoned

http://totallycoolpix.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/28012011_egypte_riots/egypte_92.jpg
Tear gas again

http://totallycoolpix.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/28012011_egypte_riots/egypte_93.jpg

http://totallycoolpix.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/28012011_egypte_riots/egypte_96.jpg
Egyptian Americans outside of the White House

http://totallycoolpix.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/28012011_egypte_riots/egypte_108.jpg
Water cannon

http://totallycoolpix.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/28012011_egypte_riots/egypte_110.jpg
Tank in Tahrir Square

http://totallycoolpix.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/28012011_egypte_riots/egypte_120.jpg
The burned remains of the NDP HQ in Cairo

[Bud Struggle]

Hey Comrades!

http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y43/MercutioTomK/tumblr_lfrmv0i9V21qa6smzo1_1280.jpg

:)

[RGacky3]

They now say they are "reviewing" aid to Egypt, and Clinton is obviously becoming more and more on the side of the protests in tone.

What they are trying to avoid is this turning into another Shah moment and the US losing all ties to the largest country in the region in my opinion.

Yeah backing the president would be political suicide, I don't think anyone is doing that, but they arn't all and all siding with the protesters.



That 1.5 billion is a big playing card. If the US plays this right they might come out smelling like a rose.

I doubt it, the US is not gonna support and out and out revolution unless they can be sure that the outcome is in their favor. Plus the US's reputation is severly damaged already there (for good reason).


Well they've just sworn in a vice president (for the first time since Mubarak took over in 1981) who is also very much militarily connected. So far it's been reported that he will be a popular choice despite also being the ex-head of the secret police and also being a negotiator with Hamas, the P.A. and Israel.

Swings and flipping roundabouts.

This is the sort of thing the US would love, a new fresh face, but still controlable by the US.

But I'm still hoping against hope for a Oaxaca style revolt.

[Bud Struggle]

I doubt it, the US is not gonna support and out and out revolution unless they can be sure that the outcome is in their favor. Plus the US's reputation is severly damaged already there (for good reason).


They will daggle the 1.5 million in front of the military. If they are the power brokers--America wins. As to the US having a damaged reputation here--source please. :)

You don't seriously thing think is some sort of Communist Revolution do you? :D

[Sentinel]

As to the US having a damaged reputation here--source please.You really are asking for a 'source' to prove that the US government and it's actions have a shit reputation in that part of the world?

You are a funny guy, Bud. :lol:

[RGacky3]

You don't seriously thing think is some sort of Communist Revolution do you? :D

No I don't, but maybe some sort of real independant democracy will come out of it, and some sort of social based economy, I doubt that will come about, but hopefully.

As for COmmunism as in red flags politburo and all that shit, that stuff is done forever.


As to the US having a damaged reputation here--source please. :)


Are you honestly asking for a source that the US has a damaged reputation amung the egyptians (and most of the middle east, and really most of the world). I'm pretty sure some of the pictures shown are already a source.

[#FF0000]

As to the US having a damaged reputation here--source please

They said this was the case on Al Jazeera not two minutes ago,

[Bud Struggle]

You really are asking for a 'source' to prove that the US government and it's actions have a shit reputation in that part of the world?

You are a funny guy, Bud. :lol:

If the Egyptian military wins out in any way--America wins.

Further, I'll say this--long term, I bet America wins in this Revolution. It's already headed that way.

[#FF0000]

If the Egyptian military wins out in any way--America wins.

Further, I'll say this--long term, I bet America wins in this Revolution. It's already headed that way.

why

[Bud Struggle]

They said this was the case on Al Jazeera not two minutes ago,

I'm sure they'll say it on Trotsky.com and Gacky will find a quote about it in Vogue but for the most part America isn't being mentioned.

[#FF0000]

I'm sure they'll say it on Trotsky.com and Gacky will find a quote about it in Vogue but for the most part America isn't being mentioned.

1) I gave you a source though.
2) what is this thing about Gacky and magazines? What is this joke about?

[RGacky3]

I'm sure they'll say it on Trotsky.com and Gacky will find a quote about it in Vogue but for the most part America isn't being mentioned.

OHhhh Bud, your still trying. America is on a lot of the signs (people know the dictatorship was funded by the US). SUch as the one in this thread "Mubarak + 30 billion in US aid = 30 years of tyranny," But hey keep trying Team-America.


2) what is this thing about Gacky and magazines? What is this joke about?

I sourced a poll once done by vogue magazine and another group, and since then he's been putting out at every opportunity giggling to himself, especially when he has nothing to defend his position (which almost every thread).

[Bud Struggle]

why

America supplies almost all of the money that supports the Egyptian military. If they cut off America they cut off their livelyhood.

America has got them by the balls. When Clinton said America was "reviewing America's aid to Egypt" that was a very strong message being sent to the Egyptian military.

And the Egyptian military is well respected in Egypt. I think unless something very wild happens America has a win-win situation.

[Bud Struggle]

what is this thing about Gacky and magazines? What is this joke about?

Private joke.



OK--Well see how this turns out, won't we?

[#FF0000]

I sourced a poll once done by vogue magazine and another group, and since then he's been putting out at every opportunity giggling to himself, especially when he has nothing to defend his position (which almost every thread).

Oh that's not fair. Mark Ames or Matt Taibbi or one of those guys do articles for Vanity Fair every so often and they are consistently great writers.

... but Vogue, Gack? really?

[RGacky3]

America supplies almost all of the money that supports the Egyptian military. If they cut off America they cut off their livelyhood.


So Mubarak has been Eygpts lively hood for the last 30 years!!!????


America has got them by the balls. When Clinton said America was "reviewing America's aid to Egypt" that was a very strong message being sent to the Egyptian military.


the military =/= the country Bud.


And the Egyptian military is well respected in Egypt. I think unless something very wild happens America has a win-win situation.

You were arguing that the Americas reputation is not seriously damaged when it comes to the people, which is an idiotic position.

[RGacky3]

... but Vogue, Gack? really?

It was vanity fair and 60 minutes that did the poll, which was done the same way AP and reuters do polls, either way, it was a poll that respected news papers and news organizations sourced, so I sourced it too (one of many I source). It was the one where it was polled that americans want to tax the rich first to balence the budget before they cut anything.

For some reason Bud switches vanity fair with vogue.

[#FF0000]

And the Egyptian military is well respected in Egypt. I think unless something very wild happens America has a win-win situation.

Maybe. I mean there's a difference between the officers and the rank-and-file of the military.

[Bud Struggle]

For some reason Bud switches vanity fair with vogue.

Don't deny it Gack--you're a Fashionista! :D

[Bud Struggle]

Maybe. I mean there's a difference between the officers and the rank-and-file of the military.

Ok let's see how it plays out. My prediction is in.

You guys?-----What do you think?

[graffic]

This might be a revolution but it is one led by a mob, without any vision or alternative. Egyptian state power is far far more organised than these protesters. Worst case scenario is Mubarak stays, best would be some reforms but i think unless something really kicks off in Yemen, Saudi Arabia, Jordan that is organised and effective, it is unlikely to be radical for the region. And very bad news for middle East peace process if Muslim brotherhood get into power

[RGacky3]

Ok let's see how it plays out. My prediction is in.


Your prediction is the same as everyone elses, but our hopes are that Eygpt becomes free, you ... it seams your just team America.

But you seam to believe that the US is not hated by the people .... You seam to think that the US will come out of this smelling like roses, you sound like Donald Rumsfeld.

[Bud Struggle]

This might be a revolution but it is one led by a mob, without any vision or alternative. Egyptian state power is far far more organised than these protesters. Worst case scenario is Mubarak stays, best would be some reforms but i think unless something really kicks off in Yemen, Saudi Arabia, Jordan that is organised and effective, it is unlikely to be radical for the region. And very bad news for middle East peace process if Muslim brotherhood get into power

My guess there: Yeman--nothing. the place is already a mess. Saudi Arabia--nothing there. The Saudis are too much in control and the country is too spread out. Plus the people are doing well with oil money.

Jordan--that's a shot especially with Palestinians that are treated there as badly as they are treated in Israel.

[Sasha]

And very bad news for middle East peace process if Muslim brotherhood get into power

wouldnt know about that, with hezbollah in power in lebanon, Hamas in gaza and significant influence of the muslim brotherhood in egypt it might be that the moderate responsible "building schools and run hospitals" part of these movements (wich all exist and are an significant factor in these movements) get proppelled in an prominate place and will take the wind of the jihadist who can only function in an state of opposition and conflict.

edit: also, all these movements are or aspire to be democraticly ellected wich is absolutly uncomparable to the iran regime or even more absurd al-qaida. the muslim brotherhood of today is in general not much different than an christian democratic party, not an ally to progressive revolutionarys but also def not an sure road to theocracy.
also the pro-democratic aspirations and demographics of these uprisings needs to be taken into effect, an tunesian muslim fundamentalism expert was on TV and he said that the only way the salafists would ever have an chance to take controll of the country would be if the current "the winner of the ellections get all seats" system stays in place, in an representative liberal democracy the salafists dont stant a change of gaining ever something close to an majority let alone an 2/3th majority needed to change the constitution.
same in egypt, if the muslim brotherhood would be just one of the oposition partys of many they would never top more than 25% are the estimates.

[Sentinel]

If the Egyptian military wins out in any way--America wins.Sad but true, I'm afraid. This is why Lenin explains in his The State and the Revolution that the entire bourgeois state, and most importantly it's army, must be dismantled by the revolutionaries if a true change is to take place; before capitalism really is toppled and a totally democratic society is possible.

Thusly this is what the revolutionaries must urgently do. If you want another example of Lenin predicting the future here, President Allende did not replace the military leadership in Chile after gaining power, and they overthrew him.

This also why reformism is a dead end on the road to socialism.



Further, I'll say this--long term, I bet America wins in this Revolution. It's already headed that way.Actually, the bourgeoisie of America might be in deep shit. Or to put it this way, at least they can expect some highly raised gas prices if the protests spread properly to Saudi Arabia and Iraq as well and succeed. The entire oil fields of the middle east will be in from the US independent hands. :lol:

[RGacky3]

I would be really really suprised if the muslim brotherhood has any power, however if a military like dicatorship came out of it, or some sort of corrupt democracy (mexico or Colombia) that is as good as a totalitarian dictatorship, especially if the US (as it most definately will) get involved.

If the people don't stand for anything like that and keep fighting they might just win.

But as we all know, democracy is not what the US wants there.

[TheCultofAbeLincoln]

Sad but true, I'm afraid. This is why Lenin explains in his The State and the Revolution that the entire bourgeois state, and most importantly it's army, must be dismantled by the revolutionaries if a true change is to take place; before capitalism really is toppled and a totally democratic society is possible.

Thusly this is what the revolutionaries must urgently do. If you want another example of Lenin predicting the future here, President Allende did not replace the military leadership in Chile after gaining power, and they overthrew him.

This also why reformism is a dead end on the road to socialism.

But we're not talking about a socialist revolution but one that has clear support from many political classes.


Actually, the bourgeoisie of America might be in deep shit. Or to put it this way, at least they can expect some highly raised gas prices if the protests spread properly to Saudi Arabia and Iraq as well and succeed. The entire oil fields of the middle east will be in from the US independent hands. :lol:

I don't see why a state like Saudi Arabia, where the majority of the workforce is flown in from Pakistan and then removed when no longer needed, is continuously cited as the most likely country to go "next" if Egypt were to. Libya, Algeria, Jordan, Yemen, Mauritania, Syria, and Iran all seem like much more likely candidates to see the type of unrest that Egypt and Tunisia are seeing.

Better yet,

Age Demographic of Egypt:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/9/99/Egypt.pop.pramid.2005.jpg

Iran:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/1/1b/Iran.pop.pyramid.2005.jpg

Saudi Arabia:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/a/a7/Saudia.pop.pyramid.2005.jpg


Much smaller, much more balanced population in Saudi Arabia than in Egypt. Not that it can't happen, but the only opposition there that I know of is small pockets of liberals who need the "progressive" hand of the monarchy to protect them from the zealots. Also not to say that whats going on in Egypt is a youth protest exclusively, but let's face it, a major theme is that so many of the protesters grew up with 1 leader.

I don't think Iraqis are really pining for a revolution and massive civil unrest at this point in their history, though I could be wrong.

[#FF0000]

I don't think Iraqis are really pining for a revolution and massive civil unrest at this point in their history, though I could be wrong.

I imagine they're just too war weary to deal with any more unrest.

[#FF0000]

Some news.

My good friend who hops back and forth between America and Egypt whenever the mood strikes him got in touch with a friend in Alexandria.

Apparently, the Bedouin in their neighborhood killed one of these thugs we've been hearing so much about, and captured another. The thugs, as it turns out, were prisoners who "broke out" (read: were released) and who were paid 2,000 Egyptian Pounds (A little less than 350 US Freedom Bucks) by the government to cause trouble.

Also this (http://solidaritymagazine.org/2011/01/egyptian-workers-form-new-union/):


Trade unionists in Tahir Square "announce the organization of the new
Federation of Egyptian Trade Unions and to announce the formation of
committees in all factories and enterprises to protect, defend them and
to set a date for a general strike."

Oh, dear.

[RGacky3]

I love how Joe Biden said "Its not really fair to call Mubarak a dictator," really? But it IS ok to call Chavez a dictator?

Is the definition of a dictator someone who does'nt submit to the US power?

Joe Biden is a joke.

guess whos against the revolutoin, the Chamber of Commerce (the corporate funders of which are the new controllers of the state).

[RGacky3]

Oh, dear.

here it goes :)

[Sasha]

I love how Joe Biden said "Its not really fair to call Mubarak a dictator," really? But it IS ok to call Chavez a dictator?

Is the definition of a dictator someone who does'nt submit to the US power?

Joe Biden is a joke.

guess whos against the revolutoin, the Chamber of Commerce (the corporate funders of which are the new controllers of the state).

and not to mention:

Israel urges the world to tone down Mubarak criticism amid Egypt unrest (http://www.haaretz.com/print-edition/news/israel-urges-world-to-tone-down-mubarak-criticism-amid-egypt-unrest-1.340238?localLinksEnabled=false)to preserve stability in the region, the Haaretz newspaper reports, citing senior Israeli officials.


Senior Israeli officials ... said that on Saturday night the Foreign Ministry issued a directive to around a dozen key embassies in the United States, Canada, China, Russia and several European countries. The ambassadors were told to stress to their host countries the importance of Egypt's stability. In a special cable, they were told to get this word out as soon as possible, the paper reports.

[RGacky3]

Israel urges the world to tone down Mubarak criticism amid Egypt unrest (http://www.haaretz.com/print-edition/news/israel-urges-world-to-tone-down-mubarak-criticism-amid-egypt-unrest-1.340238?localLinksEnabled=false)to preserve stability in the region, the Haaretz newspaper reports, citing senior Israeli officials.



Its very important to pay attention to words like that, what does "preserve stability" actually mean, stability for workers? for families? For foor supplies? For Housing? No, it means stability for the ruling class to keep doing what they want and stability for Isreal to keep screwing the palestinians and for Saudi Arabia to keep being Americas lap dog, and keep the US corporatations controling the Oil supply.

Words like that are very interesting, they don't care if things are stable for societies, only for power.

[Che a chara]

Israel would need to wake up to reality now and stop their oppressive regime or circumstances could well be out of their control when a new leadership in Egypt is announced which might hopefully further delegitimize their occupation and policies.

What other tactic can they seriously pursue now other than for a REAL peace and not the lies and illusionary peace they bullshit about constantly ?

[Che a chara]

Its very important to pay attention to words like that, what does "preserve stability" actually mean, stability for workers? for families? For foor supplies? For Housing? No, it means stability for the ruling class to keep doing what they want and stability for Isreal to keep screwing the palestinians and for Saudi Arabia to keep being Americas lap dog, and keep the US corporatations controling the Oil supply.

Words like that are very interesting, they don't care if things are stable for societies, only for power.

Well said. They want to preserve the continuation of land theft and the total humiliation and suffocation of the brutally oppressed people in the occupied territories and of course for the exploitation and cheep flood of oil in the region.

[PhoenixAsh]

I love how Joe Biden said "Its not really fair to call Mubarak a dictator," really? But it IS ok to call Chavez a dictator?

Is the definition of a dictator someone who does'nt submit to the US power?

Joe Biden is a joke.

guess whos against the revolutoin, the Chamber of Commerce (the corporate funders of which are the new controllers of the state).

http://www.haaretz.com/print-edition/opinion/an-arab-revolution-fueled-by-methods-of-the-west-1.340079



If you're a Saudi king who buys billions of dollars of American weapons, you're pro-Western and therefore entitled to continue to rule a country without a parliament, one where thieves' hands are amputated and women aren't allowed to drive. If you're an Egyptian president who supports the peace process, you're pro-Western and have permission to continue to impose emergency rule in your country, jail journalists and opposition members, and fix elections.
And what if you're the ruler of Qatar? There's a problem classifying you. On the one hand, Qatar hosts the largest American military base in the Middle East. But it has close relations with Iran and Syria. On the one hand, its ruler promotes democratic values and its foreign minister occasionally meets with top Israeli officials. But it nurtures Al Jazeera.
Of course, we love Al Jazeera when it shows us exclusive pictures of mass demonstrations, discloses secret documents, and is open to interviewing Israeli and Jewish spokespeople. But we hate it because it covers Hamas and Hezbollah's successes. The huge challenge of categorizing Qatar shows that the terms pro-Western and moderate have no connection to the universal values the West seeks to export. They only represent the degree of the fear and the threat posed by the values the anti-Westerners send to the West.






http://www.haaretz.com/print-edition/opinion/the-egyptian-masses-won-t-play-ally-to-israel-1.340080


The hypocritical and sanctimonious division of countries by the U.S. and the West between the "axis of evil" on the one hand, and the "moderates" on the other, has collapsed. If there is an axis of evil, then it includes all the non-democratic regimes, including the "moderates" and the "stable" and the "pro-Western." Today Egypt, tomorrow Palestine. Yesterday Tunis, tomorrow Gaza.

(...)

The Egyptian regime became an ally of the Israeli occupation. The joint siege of Gaza is irrefutable proof of that. The Egyptian people didn't like it. They never liked the peace agreement with Israel, in which Israel committed itself to "respect the legitimate rights of the Palestinian people" but never kept its word. Instead, the people of Egypt got the scenes of Operation Cast Lead.

(...)The masses of the Egyptian people - please note: on all levels - took their fate in their hands. There is something impressive and cheering in that. No power, not even that of Mubarak, who Ben-Eliezer likes so much, can overcome them. In Washington the gravity of the moment has already been understood, and they were quick to dissociate from Mubarak and tried to find favor in the eyes of his people. That should happen at some point in Jerusalem.

[RGacky3]

I love how fox is trying to portray this as a dangerous islamic coup, like its the muslim brotherhood, what a bunch of dispicable cocks.

[Bud Struggle]

In a lot of ways the Mubarak regime was worse to the Palestinians and the Israelis. You may not like the Israelis but a least you could understand the way that they thought. On the other hand Mubarak sold out the Palestinan people for 1.5 billion dollars a year.

No other reason.

[RGacky3]

In a lot of ways the Mubarak regime was worse to the Palestinians and the Israelis. You may not like the Israelis but a least you could understand the way that they thought.

Mubarak was fine for the isrealis, which is why they are nervous.

[Che a chara]

I love how fox is trying to portray this as a dangerous islamic coup, like its the muslim brotherhood, what a bunch of dispicable cocks.

It's shocking commentating/reporting from the Fox scum. For the life of me I don't know why I put myself through the health risks of watching their coverage and especially Glenn Beck and Sean Hannity . It's like a car wreck, you can't help but. The amount of time they have focused on the 'Islamic radical revolutionary anti-american Muzzies' is fucking repulsive and such a distortion of the facts.

Beck's latest paranoidal rantings has seen him once again demonise the term "social justice" as a Muslim Brotherhood member was heard in the media referring to the need for social justice in Egypt, and this led Beck to the un-fucking-believable conclusion of a world-wide conspiracy of a radical Muslim-Sharia law/socialist/Marxist/Communist/progressive/liberal takeover of the world. He kept on citing the usage of 'social justice' being used by the left in the USA as evidence of the upcoming alliance and terror. He even had the audacity of bringing out a map and highlighting in green the countries that will be part of this 'caliphate' and this included as well as the middle east; Spain,Italy, France and Great Britain :lol:

Beck tries to add to his credibility by saying "I predicted this .... blah, blah, blah". He is being very selective in remembering his 'predictions' (if you predict a thousand things, of course one or two have the potential of happening). Plus instability and unease in the Middle east is no secret and the unrest has been well documented by a lot of political opinionators about the potential disturbances and is primarily caused by US imperialism and foreign domination/interference, to which Beck (and the rest of Fox) has no intention of mentioning.

Sean 'fuckwit' Hannity has a fetish with the Muslim Brotherhood. The turd must have some form of OCD as every sentence is "Muslim Brotherhood", "jihad", "radical Islam" etc. His guests are no better either, just toeing the line with lies, Islamophobia and fearmongering.

The Fox agenda is on full steam ahead.

[Bud Struggle]

It's shocking commentating/reporting from the Fox scum. For the life of me I don't know why I put myself through the health risks of watching their coverage and especially Glenn Beck and Sean Hannity.

It's your own fault if you die young. :D

Listen I'm a Bourgeois Capitalist and I don't watch that stuff. It's entertainment with a real world angle. Nothng more.

FWIW, nobody in the USA REALLY cares what happens to Egypt per se. This is all about how Israel will be affected by all of this.

[Che a chara]

It's your own fault if you die young. :D

The good die young Bud. the good die young :(


Listen I'm a Bourgeois Capitalist and I don't watch that stuff. It's entertainment with a real world angle. Nothng more.

Well it's dangerous Bud. Millions tune in and while there maybe a tiny minority of rubber neckers like myself, the vast vast amount of viewers are all believers who would also be in high positions in society; religious, political and economically. This sways public opinion in a major way.


FWIW, nobody in the USA REALLY cares what happens to Egypt per se. This is all about how Israel will be affected by all of this.

And that youse continue the exploitation of the region's oil. :D the usual suspects and the sleaze Stuart Varney have been shitting themselves over the USA having to travel further to get their oil and have also speculated on the need to start digging in the Gulf of Mexico again, FFS. no shame at all.

[Che a chara]

Apparently 90%+ of Egyptians oppose Mubarak, but the majority of them would rather not engage in protests/riots. So I guess the pro-government shills are taking advantage of this by themselves gathering to confuse and distort the amount of numbers involved on both sides.

Just FUCK OFF Mubarak

[Sasha]

This is bad, the regime forces the protesters to look for an oposition group that is well organised, has an parralel system of hospitals etc, acces to weapons if necessary etc. The only group fitting those criteria is the MB. Wich might be exactly what the regime would like.

[RGacky3]

FWIW, nobody in the USA REALLY cares what happens to Egypt per se.

Washington is not everyone in the USA.


Listen I'm a Bourgeois Capitalist and I don't watch that stuff. It's entertainment with a real world angle. Nothng more.


Its not made for capitalists, its made for gullible workers, its propeganda, its not entertainment, its just straight up propeganda.


The only group fitting those criteria is the MB.

I really doubt the Muslim Brotherhood will take serious control, they just don't have the support they need.

[#FF0000]

Mostly because the MB aren't too far off from Mubarak anyway.

[Red Commissar]

I don't think however the Brotherhood's influence in Egypt is near what Hezbollah has in Lebanon- that is providing an alternate "state" of sorts parallel to the national one.

From the accounts I got from others and what not, it seems the Muslim Brotherhood is given more credit than it deserves by some of the things I've seen on say CNN or BBC. It's got an intimidating name and they can pull stuff about its historical actions to blow them into a shadowy cabal that operates in the background to destroy Egypt.

At best they appear to have settled for nowadays social agitation rather than political (after all, they told their followers to not even come in the first day of demonstrations). If anything I can see the Muslim Brotherhood, with conditions set in their way, "reforming" themselves into a generic centre-right outfit.

The thing is however I think is that for the most part, many of the groups in Egypt don't seem to hold the same views on Israel that the NDP has enforced, MB included, so the west seems to be worried in that regard. But it's better to paint things off as a Fundie Islamist conspiracy for the media to tell the viewers than to bring that aspect of foreign policy to bear.

[brigadista]

the MB stuff is disinformation

[brigadista]

signs in the square of protesters calling for solidarity between xtians and muslims

[Quetzal]

The Egyptian people is barricading Tahrir square... Ready to fight, protecting the entries, making strategies. They are determined, silence before the storm. Many wounded, some very badly. A field hospital is organised. Tahrir (liberation) square is earning its name.... every couple of minutes a group of the revolutionaries are bringing a police prisoner in....

[Quetzal]

There are now 500 injured people…
And there is confirmed information that the thugs will attack the square en masse late at night after turning of the lights in the area. They intend to perpetrate a massive massacre.

[ComradeMan]

Divide et imperat. I said Mubarak wasn't going to go so easily.
;)

[Red Commissar]

the MB stuff is disinformation

Of course it is. But it's not easy to tell that to many westerners who've been fed more information about the MB in the past few days of something they've never heard of before then. We could see some phases of how the media evolved covering this:

The first few days: Riot Porn
The Friday demos and weekend: "Analysts" weigh in, ElBaradei appears
Past few days: What will happen to Egypt when Mubarak goes? MB! They are ISLAMISTS! etc.

I think this is somewhat of a reflection of western backers confidence in the regime. I think seeing as there is a chance for Mubarak to fall, they're beginning to play up the fear mongering of what the opposition is (apparently a homogeneous MB bloc!) and more than likely are watching the deployment of gov't thugs as a good sign to stir up instability and break apart the demonstrations.

Edit: Since OI reminds me of this, the clowns in the Socialist International expelled the NDP:

http://www.socialistinternational.org/images/dynamicImages/files/Letter%20NDP.pdf

"We are, as of today, ceasing the membership of the NDP, however we remain determined to cooperate with all the democrats in Egypt striving to achieve an open, democratic, inclusive and secular state."

[#FF0000]

btw what's going on in Egypt is a pretty good example of why there can't be a "peaceful revolution". We had protesters who were very peaceful all week, and now we have people who support the old regime either acting as provacateurs or outright attacking protesters.

[RGacky3]

btw what's going on in Egypt is a pretty good example of why there can't be a "peaceful revolution". We had protesters who were very peaceful all week, and now we have people who support the old regime either acting as provacateurs or outright attacking protesters.


In my opinoin that is peaceful revolution, now its self defence.

[Bud Struggle]

I agree with Gack here. The protesters did a very good job of keeping it civil. If they get attacked--they can defend themselves, but that's the rule anywhere, even in regular everyday life.

The Egyptians and setting a pretty high standard for any Revolution to follow.

Now I hope they win, too.

[Revolution starts with U]

Self-defense is not peaceful if done violently...
/facepalm
Violence != peace

[RGacky3]

Self-defense is not peaceful if done violently...
/facepalm
Violence != peace


But the intent of the protest was peaceful.

The protesters are making it very difficult for other countries to support Mubarak now.

[#FF0000]

In my opinoin that is peaceful revolution, now its self defence.

Revolution is self-defence.

[RGacky3]

Semantics :).

[Revolution starts with U]

But the intent of the protest was peaceful.

The protesters are making it very difficult for other countries to support Mubarak now.

Don't get me wrong. I fully support the protestors in their endeavor. And yes they were peaceful.

But self-defense, if done violently, is by definition not peaceful.

[RGacky3]

But self-defense, if done violently, is by definition not peaceful.

Ok, but you get what I mean.

[Bud Struggle]

Ok, but you get what I mean.

The protesters are peaceful. Defending themselves doesn't change that.

[ComradeMan]

I think, perhaps, a problem or Achilles' heel, with these protests has been/is that they seem to be more anti-one thing than pro-another thing. This means that they get to a certain point and then.... what? Everyone starts looking around thinking what next and worrying about their own interests. The protesters seem to have lost direction/momentum in this moment.

[RGacky3]

This means that they get to a certain point and then.... what?

I don't think so, its single issue stuff, that can make a big difference, look at what happened in Oaxaca, they revolted, then democratic institutions came out of that, that is generally what wil happen as long as they keep power out.


The protesters seem to have lost direction/momentum in this moment.

There is a counter attack, but they are holding strong, Mubarak is done.

[ComradeMan]

I don't think so, its single issue stuff, that can make a big difference, look at what happened in Oaxaca, they revolted, then democratic institutions came out of that, that is generally what wil happen as long as they keep power out..

Fair point, but the circumstances are quite different too.


There is a counter attack, but they are holding strong, Mubarak is done.

It all depends on which way the Egyptian armed forces swing- it hinges on that detail I am afraid. We'll just have to see. The other thing is that time is not on the protester's side here- people are going to want to get paid, eat, see their families etc etc etc- Mubarak is stubborn by his own admission and he has time on his side so long as the armed forces remain.

[Bud Struggle]

Yea, the Egyptian Army are going to be the kingmakers in all of this. You seem to have Mubarak and people in the streets both waiting on the Army's decision.

No matter what they decide they will be the power brokers. And without a doubt they have their agenda, too.

[RGacky3]

Fair point, but the circumstances are quite different too.


Sure, but lack of ideology or lack of leadership, in my opinion, can be a positive thing. Organic democratic insitutions can and will fill the space if allowed.


It all depends on which the Egyptian armed forces swing- it hinges on that detail I am afraid. We'll just have to see.

Thats true, but I seriously doubt the military will side with Mubarak, even if the leadership does, I'd expect a mutiny.

[Bud Struggle]

Thats true, but I seriously doubt the military will side with Mubarak, even if the leadership does, I'd expect a mutiny.

I can't see a mutiny at all. These Third World militaries are separate governments all to themselves. You can be assured of one thing--they will be looking out for their own self interests. Besides if Mubarak stays it will only be for eight months THEN the crowds will be gone and the military can choose whatever it wants.

To be honest if I was the head of the Egyptian military--that's the route I'd choose.

[RGacky3]

I can't see a mutiny at all. These Third World militaries are separate governments all to themselves. You can be assured of one thing--they will be looking out for their own self interests. Besides if Mubarak stays it will only be for eight months THEN the crowds will be gone and the military can choose whatever it wants.

To be honest if I was the head of the Egyptian military--that's the route I'd choose.

If the Egyptian military leadership sides with Mubarak, a mutiny would not suprise me.

I honestly don't think the Egyptian people will settle for a military dictatorship, nor do I think the military wants to establish one.

[Dean]

I can't see a mutiny at all. These Third World militaries are separate governments all to themselves. You can be assured of one thing--they will be looking out for their own self interests. Besides if Mubarak stays it will only be for eight months THEN the crowds will be gone and the military can choose whatever it wants.

To be honest if I was the head of the Egyptian military--that's the route I'd choose.
I think the military plans to use its political capital to install its own regime, engineered with a pro-US model. The top brass of Egypt's military was only recently at the pentagon discussing the current turmoil.

Also, you're dead wrong about the demography:

As befits the label given to the uprising - thaurat al-shabab (revolt of the youth) - there were plenty of mid-teens to early 30s men and women in the pro-democracy camp. But with them were children, the elderly, the ultra-pious and the slickest cosmopolitans, workers, farmers, professionals, intellectuals, artists, long-time activists, complete neophytes to political protest, and representatives of all political persuasions outside the National Democratic Party, whose headquarters were sacked and burned last Friday, and still emitting a faint ashy smell by Monday.
http://english.aljazeera.net/indepth/opinion/2011/02/20112310224495606.html

[Revolution starts with U]

The protesters are peaceful. Defending themselves doesn't change that.

If you get violent, even in self-defense, you are by definition not peaceful. Pacifism is peaceful. Self-defense is not.

I had this same semantical debate with comrademan.... if you use violence, you are by definition using violence. There is no way around, no matter how many roses and daisies you want to throw over it. Violence is violence, end of story. The problem is that people want to think violence is always bad, it's not.

[ComradeMan]

If you get violent, even in self-defense, you are by definition not peaceful. Pacifism is peaceful. Self-defense is not.

I had this same semantical debate with comrademan.... if you use violence, you are by definition using violence. There is no way around, no matter how many roses and daisies you want to throw over it. Violence is violence, end of story. The problem is that people want to think violence is always bad, it's not.

I disagree and I think it's unreasonable to accuse someone who is defending themselves from a direct attack of being violent in the immediate situation. You should know from judo that you use your opponent's force against him.

Interestingly "peaceful" does not necessarily derive from a meaning of non-violent. "Violent" is from Latin "vis" or "force" whereas "peaceful", from "peace", is ultimately from Latin "pax"- which seems to have been derived from an idea meaning "compromising", "agreeing" or making a "pact"- i.e. agreement- "paciscere" or perhaps "pangere"- to "fix".

[Bud Struggle]

If you get violent, even in self-defense, you are by definition not peaceful. Pacifism is peaceful. Self-defense is not.

I had this same semantical debate with comrademan.... if you use violence, you are by definition using violence. There is no way around, no matter how many roses and daisies you want to throw over it. Violence is violence, end of story. The problem is that people want to think violence is always bad, it's not.

No. I'm not a violent person. I haven't gotten into a fight since fifth grade. Someone breaks into my house and threaten my family he would be dead in a heartbeat. I have things that protect my house. Violent--no. hardly a move would be made. But people would be dead. Is that violent?

There are people in this world that are violent--they live it they breath it. There a difference between defending yourself and being violent.

[ComradeMan]

No. I'm not a violent person. I haven't gotten into a fight since fifth grade. Someone breaks into my house and threaten my family he would be dead in a heartbeat. I have things that protect my house. Violent--no. hardly a move would be made. But people would be dead. Is that violent?

There are people in this world that are violent--they live it they breath it. There a difference between defending yourself and being violent.

Therefore in a Roman sense, you are peaceful- you respect the "agreement", not to break into your house and threaten your family.

You have not "violated" but defended your right of dominium.

[Revolution starts with U]

I disagree and I think it's unreasonable to accuse someone who is defending themselves from a direct attack of being violent in the immediate situation. You should know from judo that you use your opponent's force against him.
You apparently are failing to understand what reason means. Violence is by definition violent. I am not accusing him of anything (because I don't have this liberal notion that violence is always bad). I am stating a fact. If you "turn the other cheek" that's peaceful. If you "defend yourself" that's violence.


Interestingly "peaceful" does not necessarily derive from a meaning of non-violent. "Violent" is from Latin "vis" or "force" whereas "peaceful", from "peace", is ultimately from Latin "pax"- which seems to have been derived from an idea meaning "compromising", "agreeing" or making a "pact"- i.e. agreement- "paciscere" or perhaps "pangere"- to "fix".
So you compromised that you were going to punch your attacker in the balls? You're still using violence, force, to defend yourself. Violence is by definition violence.


No. I'm not a violent person. I haven't gotten into a fight since fifth grade. Someone breaks into my house and threaten my family he would be dead in a heartbeat. I have things that protect my house. Violent--no. hardly a move would be made. But people would be dead. Is that violent?
Cognitive dissonance much? Yes, that's violent. I didn't say you were the aggressor. But if you attack the aggressor, even to defend yourself, you used violence. Violence is by definition violence. Liberal notions of "violence is never the answer" are naive beyond recognition.

There are people in this world that are violent--they live it they breath it. There a difference between defending yourself and being violent.
Only to the irrational is there a difference. Violence is violence, no matter how you cut it. This argument is just silly.

[Bud Struggle]

You apparently are failing to understand what reason means. Violence is by definition violent. I am not accusing him of anything (because I don't have this liberal notion that violence is always bad). I am stating a fact. If you "turn the other cheek" that's peaceful. If you "defend yourself" that's violence.


So you compromised that you were going to punch your attacker in the balls? You're still using violence, force, to defend yourself. Violence is by definition violence.


Cognitive dissonance much? Yes, that's violent. I didn't say you were the aggressor. But if you attack the aggressor, even to defend yourself, you used violence. Violence is by definition violence. Liberal notions of "violence is never the answer" are naive beyond recognition.

Only to the irrational is there a difference. Violence is violence, no matter how you cut it. This argument is just silly.

Comrade, you need to get more of a life. :)

[Revolution starts with U]

Rocky mtn National park, Mesa Verde, the Grand Canyon, the Pacific Coast Highway (and all thevarious towns on it) and the Redwood forest disagree with you :tt2:

[ComradeMan]

So if you forcefully pull back a child who is going to run in front of a car then you are violent?

There is also such a thing as passive aggression too...

[Revolution starts with U]

So if you forcefully pull back a child who is going to run in front of a car then you are violent?

There is also such a thing as passive aggression too...

Actually, you brought in the definition of violence is force. That wasn't my notion. I just made a nod to it.

I use force to stand up, that's not violent. Passive aggression is not violent. But violence is violent... by definition. I don't know how more succinctly I can put that.

Party A punches party B, party B punches back.... that's violence on both ends.d You just don't want to see that because you're still hung up on this childish notion that "violence is always bad." It's not... as a supposed martial artist you should realize that.
Violence should always be a last resort, but it is not always bad. If someone had shot Hitler... was that peaceful?

[ComradeMan]

But the word violence is ultimately derived from the word for force- vis.

In moral theories, such as argumentation ethics (http://www.revleft.org/wiki/Argumentation_ethics) and the non-aggression principle (http://www.revleft.org/wiki/Non-aggression_principle), physical aggression is distinguished from violence (http://www.revleft.org/wiki/Violence). Aggression is considered the initiation of violence. Often, retaliatory violence and defensive violence is not considered aggression, because it is a responsive action.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aggression

[hatzel]

I'm sooooo tempted to say stuff about all this violence-peace thing...sooooo tempted...:unsure:

But yeah, I agree with RSWU on the fundamental 'violence is violence' idea, yeah :)

[Revolution starts with U]

Ya, it's not considered aggression. But it is still violent. The word could have derived from pancakes.. it's modern context is clear. Violence is the use of physical means to cause harm to someone. If you punch your attacker you have used physical means to cause harm to your attacker. Your attacker is aggressive, you are still violent.
Notice you said "retaliatory violence and defensive violence."

... and seriously, the NAP?! You don't see the NAP as naive? Doesn't it usually involve justifying property rights as non-coercive? Seems like cognitive dissonance to me. :thumbdown:

[ComradeMan]

Ya, it's not considered aggression. But it is still violent. The word could have derived from pancakes.. it's modern context is clear. Violence is the use of physical means to cause harm to someone. If you punch your attacker you have used physical means to cause harm to your attacker. Your attacker is aggressive, you are still violent.
Notice you said "retaliatory violence and defensive violence."

... and seriously, the NAP?! You don't see the NAP as naive? Doesn't it usually involve justifying property rights as non-coercive? Seems like cognitive dissonance to me. :thumbdown:


Where is that an exact definition of violence? Violence is the physical force exerted for the purpose or scope of violating, abusing or damaging and thus violence refers to the instance of this action and/or behaviour. This would then not include Bud's example as his intent would not be to violate, abuse or damage but defend.

In more legal terms we would speak of the unjust and/or unwarranted exertion of force employed against rights, laws, liberty, and so on including outrage, injury, hurt, attack, assault and so on- which would again not include Bud's example.

[#FF0000]

But the word violence is ultimately derived from the word for force- vis.

In moral theories, such as argumentation ethics (http://www.revleft.org/wiki/Argumentation_ethics) and the non-aggression principle (http://www.revleft.org/wiki/Non-aggression_principle), physical aggression is distinguished from violence (http://www.revleft.org/wiki/Violence). Aggression is considered the initiation of violence. Often, retaliatory violence and defensive violence is not considered aggression, because it is a responsive action.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aggression

Is not capitalism a system of ever-present violence against working people?

[Revolution starts with U]

Where is that an exact definition of violence? Violence is the physical force exerted for the purpose or scope of violating, abusing or damaging and thus violence refers to the instance of this action and/or behaviour. This would then not include Bud's example as his intent would not be to violate, abuse or damage but defend.

So you're claiming my ad hoc definition is wrong by throwing out your ad hoc definition? :lol:
His intent was to violate, abuse, and damage his aggressor. No matter how you cut it "I would kill him" is violence. You're being naive to say otherwise.
I
n more legal terms we would speak of the unjust and/or unwarranted exertion of force employed against rights, laws, liberty, and so on including outrage, injury, hurt, attack, assault and so on- which would again not include Bud's example.
Are you sure this is a definition of violence, and not one of aggression? It seems like the latter.

[ComradeMan]

So you're claiming my ad hoc definition is wrong by throwing out your ad hoc definition? :lol:
His intent was to violate, abuse, and damage his aggressor. No matter how you cut it "I would kill him" is violence. You're being naive to say otherwise.
I
Are you sure this is a definition of violence, and not one of aggression? It seems like the latter.

It's not an ad hoc definition, it's a definition under law.

You cannot violate an aggressor- you don't seem to get what the word means.

You seem to mistake physical force as violence, when that is not the case, physical force with the unjust attempt to violate is violence.

[#FF0000]

under law

Ethics =/= Law tho

[Revolution starts with U]

I thought the second one was the "legal definition." Plus it is ad hoc if you provide no source :D

http://www.google.com/search?sclient=psy&hl=en&q=define:violence&aq=f&aqi=&aql=&oq=&pbx=1

Basically this ^ is defining violence as the use of physical force to cause harm to another, or compel them to do something.

You can violate an agressor. Jesus was peaceful. Most people use violence to defend themselves. It's just as much violence in defense as it is in attack. There is a difference between agression and violence, but not violence and violence.
"physical force with the unjust attempt to violate" is agression. Violence is still violence.

[ComradeMan]

Ad hoc doesn't really mean that. But anyway, we'll just have to agree to differ on this one I think.

"physical force with the unjust attempt to violate" is violence.

[Revolution starts with U]

I would agree to disagree. But I think you just made that definition up. I can't seem to find it. You call it legal, but "unjust," you should know, could mean anything according to the laws of the land in which one is prosecuted.
It sounds far more like a definition of aggressive violence, than violence itself.

http://legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/Self-Defense

Courts and tribunals have historically accepted self-defense as a defense to a legal action. As a matter of public policy, the physical force or violence associated with self-defense is considered an acceptable response to aggression.

You are right about ad hoc. I have been using that wrong for a long time :lol:

[hatzel]

So, back to Egypt...I heard we've been busy again...


Pro-Egyptian government counter-protesters in Cairo are screaming "Jew!" at foreign journalists, apparently spurred by Egyptian state TV accusations that Israeli spies are behind the protests.

"Egyptian state television has actively tried to foment the unrest by reporting that 'Israeli spies' on the unrest have infiltrated the city, which explains why many of the gangs who attack reporters shout 'yehudi!,' " Al Jazeera said in a report on its website Thursday.

The report documented increasing attacks on foreign journalists.

The Obama administration has condemned such attacks and called on the Mubarak regime to rein them in.

Source (http://www.jta.org/news/article/2011/02/03/2742846/pro-mubarak-supporters-target-journos-as-jews)



We're everywhere...:laugh:

[#FF0000]

thIkd4I2xm0

open season on Egyptian cops imo

[Ele'ill]

I heard live rounds were fired as well


So wait, now I'm hearing that quite a few people were killed in that incident with the vehicle. Can someone verify this?

[#FF0000]

I wouldn't be surprised, but I don't know.

They're using vehicles like that a lot now. I know a guy was killed when a fire truck was used in the same fashion.

[Bud Struggle]

I'd like to know who the pro-Mubarak protesters are that sprung up out of no where.

[Lt. Ferret]

when the police start using police vans as high speed battering rams i think all moral justification has been thrown out the fucking window.

[Ele'ill]

http://socialistworker.org/2011/02/04/the-struggle-surges-ahead


The demonstrations continued through last Friday, when there were huge battles with the police that pushed the security forces off the streets. The government's response was to deploy the army, which is seen as "above politics"--but to allow Cairo to descend into a kind of chaos, with gangs of thugs roaming through neighborhoods, many of them organized by the regime. The mass of Egyptians responded to this by organizing neighborhood defense committees to protect the people.


Once inside Tahrir, you could see a level of organization and solidarity unlike anything I've seen before.

The first thing that struck me was the makeshift clinics set up all over the place, with dozens and dozens of nurses and doctors--many of whom said they were unemployed--stitching up people's legs or arms or faces.


I understand the significance of the demonstrations but I'd like to know more of what's going on in regards to organizing within the various communities. What's the next step after the goal is reached?

[RGacky3]

I understand the significance of the demonstrations but I'd like to know more of what's going on in regards to organizing within the various communities.

I second that, the organic organizations that spring up are the real stories.

[Bud Struggle]

I second that, the organic organizations that spring up are the real stories.

It's over.

Mubarak will "go" with "dignity" and the head of the army of the security forces or some other such will head the country.

All win situation. The protesters win. the army wins, Mubarak wins. the USA wins.

Meet the old boss--same as the old boss.

[RGacky3]

It's over.

Mubarak will "go" with "dignity" and the head of the army of the security forces or some other such will head the country.

All win situation. The protesters win. the army wins, Mubarak wins. the USA wins.

Meet the old boss--same as the old boss.

Bud, good things happen in the world, you may not like them to happen, but sometimes they do.

BTW, the protesters are not idiots, they don't want a military dictatorship, and they'll know if they have one.

[Ele'ill]

I'm trying to find updated information on the general strike but there isn't a whole lot- there's a lot of talk of it fizzling out.

[Bright Banana Beard]

It is a lost hope if the demonstrations don't do anything.

[Ele'ill]

It is a lost hope if the demonstrations don't do anything.

The demonstrations have already succeeded as much as they possibly could. I am not seeing much follow through past that- unless I am completely missing something. It is still early yet but the impression I got from watching the live streams and news reports from the past several days is that there's a sense of waiting around for something better to arrive but I don't think things work that way.

[#FF0000]

The demonstrations have already succeeded as much as they possibly could. I am not seeing much follow through past that- unless I am completely missing something. It is still early yet but the impression I got from watching the live streams and news reports from the past several days is that there's a sense of waiting around for something better to arrive but I don't think things work that way.

Yeah I've noticed this too, which is why I really, really want to hear more about these committees.

But even if the protests do end and it ends with Mubarak remaining in power, we still have the future to look forward to. These protests came from thirty years of of resistance and that isn't going to stop. Especially after these protests.

[Burn A Flag]

Yeah, after such an uprising we can at least hope for a repeat if they just get another US puppet, and hopefully something like this will start to occur in a country with a decent ideological basis.

[Ele'ill]

A larger turn out than I had expected- nice to see

http://portland.indymedia.org/en/2011/02/405837.shtml

[Red Commissar]

Two pictures (one a crude TV capture but anyways...) of Muslims and Copts together in prayers earlier this afternoon

http://desmond.yfrog.com/Himg610/scaled.php?tn=0&server=610&filename=i1woc.jpg&xsize=640&ysize=640

http://a2.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc6/hs056.snc6/168667_496265831178_598976178_6681514_6868336_n.jp g

[Bud Struggle]

America is backing off of the "Mubarak must go" stance and now looking for a gradual transition. Nassar and Sedat and Mubarak were all from the military--any guess where the next Glorious President will be from?

[Ele'ill]

Glorious President will be from?

From a glorious intelligence agency.

[#FF0000]

I can't imagine people will accept that for long. Especially when the guy is literally a torturer.

[Bud Struggle]

I can't imagine people will accept that for long. Especially when the guy is literally a torturer.

I don't know. This might be a good litmus test.

If they do accept him and all this was about getting rid of Mubarak and not change the system--then that doesn't bode will for the future of world Revolutions. They could just be subverted by a little shell game.

On the other hand if people really want democracy--and keep fighting till they get it--then I'll give your Communist Revolution a fighting chance.

Anyone want to make a little bet on how this is going to go down? ;)

[brigadista]

the carpetbaggers getting ready to move in...

[ComradeMan]

Well, I said Mubarak wouldn't go so easily- and it seems as if it might be this way again- I've seen Hosni Mubarak surviving stuff since the early 80's. I'm not saying I want it this way- but I guess cynicism comes with age.

[Ele'ill]

Man shot by police- anybody have the story? Dead?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r_e9mKF8IY8

[RGacky3]

It looks like Mubarak is just gonna try ride it out, wait for the protests to die down, people to start having to go back to work, nows the time to storm the palace in my opinion.

Yeah, generally I'm non-violent, but now you gotta end it.

[#FF0000]

I don't know. This might be a good litmus test.

If they do accept him and all this was about getting rid of Mubarak and not change the system--then that doesn't bode will for the future of world Revolutions. They could just be subverted by a little shell game.

On the other hand if people really want democracy--and keep fighting till they get it--then I'll give your Communist Revolution a fighting chance.

Just switching the guy out might quiet things for a little bit but Omar Suleiman is literally the worst of the old government, and the protesters don't want anyone from the old government.

Like I said. This isn't just going to go away. Even if the protests end for now and things go back to normal.

[Bud Struggle]

Just switching the guy out might quiet things for a little bit but Omar Suleiman is literally the worst of the old government, and the protesters don't want anyone from the old government. I agree, but what I think we have here is more than just a con game on Egypt. What we may have here is a referendum on Revolution in general. How DO they play out? Can a switch in faces but not in substence make people content? This Revolution may be the official playbook for people seeking a better world--OR it may be the new playbook for corrupt regimes staying in power.

This is bigger than just the Egyptians.


Like I said. This isn't just going to go away. Even if the protests end for now and things go back to normal. Maybe, maybe not. This is where it gets interesting.

[Bud Struggle]

It looks like the US put together a deal to help the protesters.

Is Mubarak Heading to Germany?
Feb 8, 2011 – 6:41 AM
Lauren Frayer (http://www.aolnews.com/team/lauren-frayer/) Contributor

Rumors are swirling that Egyptian President Hosni Mubarak may soon head to Germany for health checks, in a face-saving exit that would likely be heralded as victory for demonstrators calling for his ouster and would also give Egypt's new vice president some breathing room to implement U.S.-backed reforms.

It's unclear whether the 82-year-old leader has any immediate health problems. But such a trip, under the guise of medical reasons, could be one way for Mubarak to plan a graceful departure from the political turmoil surrounding him, though it's unclear whether he's amenable to it. Last week, he delivered a speech on state TV vowing to die on Egyptian soil -- a jab at those demanding his exile.


Unconfirmed reports say Egyptian President Hosni Mubarak could be going to Germany for medical reasons.


Sources at a luxury hospital in southwest Germany told Der Spiegel newspaper (http://www.spiegel.de/international/world/0,1518,743998,00.html) that they're preparing for Mubarak's possible arrival, under a plan hatched by the U.S. government that would have Mubarak fly to Germany for a "prolonged health check." U.S. officials refused to comment on the report, and a spokesman for Chancellor Angela Merkel told Dow Jones (http://online.wsj.com/article/BT-CO-20110207-708457.html) that Germany has received no requests to grant Mubarak exile.

U.S. Secretary of State Hillary Rodham Clinton was in Munich for a security conference last week, but it's unclear whether she talked with German officials about any such plan. Asked about a possible transfer of power in Egypt, Clinton said, "There are certain things that have to be done in order to prepare," The New York Times reported (http://www.nytimes.com/2011/02/06/world/middleeast/06egypt.html?pagewanted=2&_r=2&sq=mubarak%20and%20germany&st=cse&scp=1).

The paper also quoted Amr Hamzawy, one of the so-called "wise men" mediating talks between Vice President Omar Suleiman and some of the protesters, as saying his group of Egyptian intermediaries has drawn up a plan that would see Mubarak transfer his powers to Suleiman and perhaps move to the Egyptian resort town of Sharm el-Sheik or embark on one of his annual medical leaves to Germany.

According to Der Spiegel, plans for Mubarak to travel to Germany are far more concrete than previously thought. Talks are being held with several suitable hospitals, including the Max-Grundig-Klinik Buhlerhohe, a luxury spa and health center in the Germany's idyllic Black Forest, near the southwestern town of Buhl, the paper reported. The clinic's website (http://www.max-grundig-klinik.de/index.php?id=28&L=1) says it has the "ambience of a luxury hotel."

It's unclear whether Mubarak has been to that clinic before, as the details of his previous trips to Germany have been shrouded in secrecy. Last spring he had his gallbladder removed at another facility in Heidelberg, amid rumors at the time that he was suffering from cancer.

Der Spiegel said Mubarak was already camping out at his Sharm el-Sheik resort residence, but Egypt's state-run MENA news agency said he met today with the visiting foreign minister of the United Arab Emirates.

Mubarak also set up a committee today to recommend constitutional changes that would relax presidential eligibility rules and impose term limits -- the first concrete step he has taken toward democratic reforms that have been the demands of thousands of protesters for the past two weeks, as well as Western diplomats. Mubarak also set up another committee to oversee implementation of all proposed reforms, Suleiman announced on state TV.

Protesters have complained that the Egyptian government's concessions -- with Mubarak setting up committees like those today, and Suleiman holding talks with some opposition leaders -- have fallen short of their demands. They want Mubarak's complete ouster and haven't been satisfied with his promise not to stand in September elections. Thousands are still camping out today in Cairo's Tahrir Square, vowing not to leave until Mubarak goes.

In Germany, lawmakers in Merkel's governing coalition have said they're open to the idea of hosting Mubarak if it helps the situation on the ground in Egypt.

"We need a peaceful transition in Egypt. If Germany can make a constructive contribution in an international framework, we should receive Hosni Mubarak -- if he wants that," Andreas Schockenhoff, a senior member of Merkel's conservative Christian Democratic Union party, told Der Spiegel.

Elke Hof, the security policy spokeswoman for Germany's Free Democratic Party, a junior coalition member, told the publication, "I would welcome an early departure by Mubarak if this can contribute to stabilizing the situation in Egypt."

But some opposition lawmakers disagree.

"Care must be taken to ensure that Mubarak doesn't use a stay at a German hospital to duck his responsibilities toward the people of Egypt," Cem Ozdemir, co-leader of Germany's Green Party, told the Hannoversche Allgemeine newspaper (http://www.haz.de/). "Germany cannot become a luxurious sanctuary for deposed despots."

From AOL. I posted the entire article because you might be able to link to AOL.

http://www.aolnews.com/2011/02/08/is-hosni-mubarak-heading-to-germany/?icid=main%7Chtmlws-main-n%7Cdl2%7Csec1_lnk3%7C200019

[Lord Testicles]

I agree, but what I think we have here is more than just a con game on Egypt. What we may have here is a referendum on Revolution in general. How DO they play out? Can a switch in faces but not in substence make people content? This Revolution may be the official playbook for people seeking a better world--OR it may be the new playbook for corrupt regimes staying in power.


If a corrupt regime stays in power, then it's not a revolution, is it?

[Bud Struggle]

If a corrupt regime stays in power, then it's not a revolution, is it?

True. I guess that would be an "attempted" Revolution or maybe an "aborted" Revolution.

[RGacky3]

"There are certain things that have to be done in order to prepare,"

You know what that means right?

The best thing the US can do (for democracy, if only the establishment cared about that), is cut funding, cut military funding, and then shut the hell up, don't "help" Eygpt to democracy, don't try and "manage" the situation, don't "broker" a deal, don't do anything, leave them the hell alone and allow them to build the society they want.

The US right now is the biggest threat to democracy in eygpt.

[RGacky3]

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/02/09/egyptians-stage-massive-anti-mubarak-protest_n_820575.html

very very encouraging.

"We cannot bear this situation for a long time and we must end this crisis as soon as possible." - Suleiman.

I'm not sure what that means exactly, but it sounds like the state is itching to get violent (again).

Time to storm the palace.

[Bud Struggle]

Time to storm the palace.

That of course is when the REAL Revolution starts.

[RGacky3]

That of course is when the REAL Revolution starts.

It looks as if Mubarak is gonna try and just hold out, and it also seams as if the powers that be and some allies of Mubarak, will hold out, or use the time to construct a very similar situation (one where a market friendly dictator, or a market friendly non democratic state is in control).

Time is not on the protesters side, which is why I think they need to step it up a bit, I get that it might be difficult, but sitting it out should not be an option.

The interesting thing is the military by its doing nothing, is really almost siding with Mubarak, they allowed pro-mubarak thugs to terrorise the protesters, by not stopping that they were being complicit.

Obama seams to be following that line, just ride it out, and hope the protests die down so the situation can be controlled.

Time to storm the palace, make Mubarak have to get on his private jet and get out, not because any one asks him too, but because if he does'nt its his ass.

[RGacky3]

Cenk has a great idea,
re5oXGFp228

Economic warfare, shut down the banks, shut down the markets, problem I see is that the economy IS allready kind of shut down, due to the strikes and so on, but they are just holding out and waiting, that cannot be an option.

(btw, is it just me or is this Cenk becoming more of a goofball, he's still one of the smartest guys on Mainstream news, but the goofyness kind of makes him look, well .... goofy, not a big deal really, because he still makes sense).

[Che a chara]

(btw, is it just me or is this Cenk becoming more of a goofball, he's still one of the smartest guys on Mainstream news, but the goofyness kind of makes him look, well .... goofy, not a big deal really, because he still makes sense).

Yeah Cenk has gotten a bit too obvious and repetitive in his attacks and criticisms lately, but he is still a worthwhile watch. the YT and himself have become very accessible over the past few months and that kind of publicity and popularity is bound to have some sort of an affect on him, be it by his paymasters encouraging him or just him being more open.

[RGacky3]

be it by his paymasters encouraging him or just him being more open.

Thats a definately outcome, but so far it seams he's still hitting hard, and he's still a strong progressive. (not one of the psudo safe progressives, that think "yeah, progressivism, except don't hurt profits.") But we'll see, if he gets his own show on MSNBC, that could have some censorship in it, but I doubt TYT will change, you look at Dillan Ratigans non MSNBC projects and he's much further left.

[Che a chara]

I see Israel are getting ultra defensive again and looking to isolate themselves further by apparent plans to erect a security barrier at the border with Egypt, cutting them off, and also engaging in aggressive and provocative warmongering rhetoric.

[Bud Struggle]

I'm a little amazed that you can see so many American news shows in Ireland and Norway and no doubt everwhere else.


I see Israel are getting ultra defensive again and looking to isolate themselves further by apparent plans to erect a security barrier at the border with Egypt, cutting them off, and also engaging in aggressive and provocative warmongering rhetoric.

there nothing like a good war to take people's minds off Liberation. ;)

[danyboy27]

It looks as if Mubarak is gonna try and just hold out, and it also seams as if the powers that be and some allies of Mubarak, will hold out, or use the time to construct a very similar situation (one where a market friendly dictator, or a market friendly non democratic state is in control).

Time is not on the protesters side, which is why I think they need to step it up a bit, I get that it might be difficult, but sitting it out should not be an option.

The interesting thing is the military by its doing nothing, is really almost siding with Mubarak, they allowed pro-mubarak thugs to terrorise the protesters, by not stopping that they were being complicit.

Obama seams to be following that line, just ride it out, and hope the protests die down so the situation can be controlled.

Time to storm the palace, make Mubarak have to get on his private jet and get out, not because any one asks him too, but because if he does'nt its his ass.

they are verry aware that any crackdown of massive proportion will not benenefit to anyone. They know that the number of leftist and socialist will double in the event of an armed crackdown on the protesters and further legitimize their positions.

the only ace they had to counter those protest was a populist right wing nationalist movement, and so far, even that option failed hard to establish itself.

Be ready for even more reform from the governement, they will compromise until the protest calm down. For now the issue is not power, its staying alive after they will loose it, those reform are an attempt to save their skin from prosecution.

if mubarak and his friends step down now, they will be arested, and they know that.

they know they are more likely to loose elections, and they are trying to compensate for it right now.

[RGacky3]

They know that the number of leftist and socialist will double in the event of an armed crackdown on the protesters and further legitimize their positions.


I dont' actually know if thats true, sometimes crackdowns work, they have already been using violence against the protesters, until the army stopped it.


Be ready for even more reform from the governement, they will compromise until the protest calm down. For now the issue is not power, its staying alive after they will loose it, those reform are an attempt to save their skin from prosecution.

if mubarak and his friends step down now, they will be arested, and they know that.


If a popular government comes in power (i.e. full revolution), I'm sure there will be prosecution, but chances are if that happens Mubarak will have skipped town long before.

He's gonna try some reform (fake), and he's gonna try hold it out, so far people have been seeing through his efforts and they won't accept anything except for his full resignation, and really and end of the regeim, it seams his strategy now might be just to try and wait it out.

The protesters in my opion have to not make that an option.


they know they are more likely to loose elections, and they are trying to compensate for it right now.

The idea that they will stay till the elections and then step down is laughable, if the protests die down on a promise, consider Mubarak the winner, even if he does change office, he'll make sure either he's in charge, or one of his tourturer buddies.

Storm the palace I say.

[RGacky3]

I'm a little amazed that you can see so many American news shows in Ireland and Norway and no doubt everwhere else.


Internet :), here in Norway all you really get from the US is CNN international.

[Red Commissar]

Yesterday says he won't leave, today he left. I guess the military got pissed off.

[Bud Struggle]

Yesterday says he won't leave, today he left. I guess the military got pissed off.

The US military gave the Egyptian military a better deal.

[danyboy27]

The US military gave the Egyptian military a better deal.

if a democracy come out of this, it will not matter if the military had a deal with the us or not. such deal could be broken if the new parlement would decide to lets say, be more antagonist toward israel.

By throwing mubarak out, they do know that regardless of who is elected, those people will remember the role of the egyptian military and will surely allow generous defense spending.

[Bud Struggle]

if a democracy come out of this, it will not matter if the military had a deal with the us or not. such deal could be broken if the new parlement would decide to lets say, be more antagonist toward israel.

By throwing mubarak out, they do know that regardless of who is elected, those people will remember the role of the egyptian military and will surely allow generous defense spending.

If democracy comes of this and America still gets to do what it wants--so much the better.

A win-win situation for all.

[RGacky3]

If democracy comes of this and America still gets to do what it wants--so much the better.

A win-win situation for all.

Actually thats usually not what happens, Iran, Venezuela, Nigeragua, Chile, Bolivia and so on. The US does not like democracy.

[Le Socialiste]

Now that Mubarak is out, the Egyptian people need to continue pushing the revolution forward. It won't be over until all remaining vestiges of the Old Guard are thrown out/removed. I worry that today's announcement about the military moving in might result in the perceived "success" of the peoples' uprising; it's not finished until the people/workers themselves are in control. Let's hope they see it through to the end.

[RGacky3]

BTW, we don't know yet what was the deciding factor for Mubarak stepping down, we'll have to wait and see.

[brigadista]

sulieman next ...????

[Le Socialiste]

sulieman next ...????


We can only hope.

[Bud Struggle]

Actually thats usually not what happens, Iran, Venezuela, Nigeragua, Chile, Bolivia and so on. The US does not like democracy.

Here the army in charge. And there have been a few problems but the US brought democracy (directly or indirectly) to Germany and Italy and Poland and the Czeck Republic and Hungary and Japan and lots of other places and they all like us just fine.

[Revolution starts with U]

I would like to know what you mean by "or indirectly."

The fact is undeniable. The US only likes democracy when those elected are who the US wanted elected. This is true even in the US; see, Bush-Gore 2000

[Bud Struggle]

I would like to know what you mean by "or indirectly." Sorry if I was unclear. I mean sometimes we march in an army (directly) and sometimes we fashion a coup and let the locals do the work (indirectly.)


The fact is undeniable. The US only likes democracy when those elected are who the US wanted elected. This is true even in the US; see, Bush-Gore 2000 Yes when it comes to other countries--but not here. Your BvG thing sounds like a conspiracy theory.

[RGacky3]

Your BvG thing sounds like a conspiracy theory.

Nope, they did a recount after the fact (during the election the courts stopped it) :), look it up.

[Revolution starts with U]

Sorry if I was unclear. I mean sometimes we march in an army (directly) and sometimes we fashion a coup and let the locals do the work (indirectly.)

Yes when it comes to other countries--but not here. Your BvG thing sounds like a conspiracy theory.

That's true. Fortunately, on all accounts this does seem to be a natural uprising.

It's no conspiracy theory to say the courts stopped the normal democratic process.

[Bud Struggle]

That's true. Fortunately, on all accounts this does seem to be a natural uprising.

I agree it was a natural uprising.

I also think it was coopted by the Egyptian military/USA with a subtle and clever slight of hand.

That's my call.

[RGacky3]

I can't say what will happen, but I hope Eygpt gets a genuine democracy and a democratic economy.

I hope you want that too Bud (and are not JUST for team America).

[Bud Struggle]

I can't say what will happen, but I hope Eygpt gets a genuine democracy and a democratic economy.

I hope you want that too Bud (and are not JUST for team America).

YES I DO. I'm just telling you what I think happened and will happen. Gack, I think you underestimate the power and the reach of the United States. I also think you overestimate the understanding and capabilities of the common person on the street.

[RGacky3]

I don't underestimate the power and reach of the United States, I DO think that you underestimate the understanding of hte common person on the street however.

But I'm just trying to not by cynical, look what happened in Bolivia, the government privatized water, the people rose up, people that many people, and probably you, might call ignorant, uneducated, people without capabilites and understanding, and not only got their public water rights back but even got their own government in, and even got their natural gas supplies, and even more.

These were poor uneducated indians, and they won, BIG TIME, they not only won against the ruling class and the government, they wong against American corporate interests, they won against American interests. :crying: (me choking up)

So good things do happen Bud, there is nothing wrong with having a little bit of hope (in the right things).

[RGacky3]

This guy (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/02/11/ahmadinejad-egypt-mubarak_n_822125.html) should really keep his mouth shut about this, he has nothing to say about democratic revolutoins, considering what happened in the last Iranian elections Ahmadinejad should really shut the hell up.

[danyboy27]

LOL! even if the major big thing is over there are still various scattered protest all over egypt. Now that labour movement arnt supressed anymore, they are expressing freely their views and opinion, they want better wages and better conditions.

Even the freaking policemens are in the street today over lousy pay.

Its just show you how repressed this society was under mubarak grip, i mean, even the fucking cops are protesting now, knowing the secret police wont kidnapp them in their sleep if they say something they dont agree on.