Letter that had me a bit slack jawed in the San Diego Union Tribune

[Unclebananahead]

I read this 'letter to the editor' in this morning's edition of the San Diego 'U-T.' Very often one reads all sorts of crap from backwards minded cranks in this section of the paper, but this letter struck me as particularly ugly. Here it is:

'Trail of Tears' doesn't apply at border

As a Cherokee descendant and a natural-born citizen of our wonderful country, I am offended by the use of the term "trail of tears" in "Following the 'Trail of Tears,'" (Local, Jan. 23) about immigrant activists' march along the US-Mexico border. The use of this term undermines the historical and tragic event that happened to American Indians at the hands of our government: They were forced to resettle in lands, many more than 125 miles away, and many of my fellow Cherokees died in this American death march -- the true "Trail of Tears." To compare this relocation with people illegally entering our country by sneaking across our border is a travesty and akin to trying to rewrite history.

While it's sad that people are dying as a result of their own bad and unlawful decisions, it should not be compared to the plight that befell our real American ancestors.

-Ham Hamilton

[Burn A Flag]

Oh dear that does sound rather awful. "Sneaking over illegally" :rolleyes:

[GPDP]

It saddens me to see someone from Native-American descent badmouth and condescend the plight of people who face similar discrimination and oppression.

Sucking up to the unjust laws of your so-called "wonderful" country (which has never done Native Americans any favors) will not increase the prospects for prosperity for anyone that currently faces oppression, be they Native, Mexican, or anything else.

[Obs]

Yeah I hate Russian nazis too

[PhoenixAsh]

well...not surprising. When you are being mistreated by unjust and racially prejudiced laws and society...the only thing left is to monopolize the racist mistreatment. It happens to all minorities.

Either blaming their racial mistreatment on other minorities (fe. Turks blame Maroccans because Dutch can not tell the difference) or state that they suffered the worst (fe. jewish groups against roma).

Racism begets racism.

Also....just because you are part of a discriminated minority doesn't mean you can't be a racist biggot or asshole yourself...

[Robocommie]

"Our real American ancestors" unlike the Mexicans, who have no Native American ancestry

[Rakhmetov]

Trail of tears of joy. :lol:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YbBWmLMVR_o

[Salyut]

Trail of tears of joy. :lol:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YbBWmLMVR_o

Thats...not really funny dude.

[coda]

Yo! Perspective people---

the historical genocidal event known as Trail of Tears-- early 1830's, in which several tribes of indigenous people (regardless of ancestry)were forcibly marched from their small homelands--- many to their deaths, acrossed thousands of miles of unoccupied land, to camps and reservations where they were again forced to adopt the US imperalist transgressor's white culture, language and customs that were completely unknown to them and wholly against their consent and (most are still at those same reservations today) -- is in no way equivalent or comparable to the current issue of 21st century immigrants crossing the border to the US. It's misinformed at best to state that, ignorant in the least.

[The Grey Blur]

of course they're comparable. they're both examples of oppressed groups being brutally transported and mistreated by the forces of capital and the state with a racist justification.

[Ocean Seal]

While it's sad that people are dying as a result of their own bad and unlawful decisions, it should not be compared to the plight that befell our real American ancestors.

-Ham Hamilton
If anything a Cherokee should know about the greatness of the American laws. Let us not forget that President Jackson violated the constitution in order to give land to white settlers and he enforced what he considered the law. So fuck the law, justice is above the law.

[coda]

yes, no doubt, they are comparable in the overarching annals of imperalism. Yes, absolutely. and yet worlds apart in circumstance.

Grey Blur, you are from the occupied 6? so you very well know about foreign occupation. And That, my friend, is the main difference from the Trail of Tears and US immigration issues. plus, language, ipods and globalization..

[Fulanito de Tal]

To add, whole or parts of Arizona, California, Nevada, Texas, New Mexico, Utah, Colorado, and Wyoming were once part of Mexico until the US stole it.

[southernmissfan]

If that's the ugliest letter to the editor in your paper I envy you.

[coda]

<<To add, whole or parts of Arizona, California, Nevada, Texas, New Mexico, Utah, Colorado, and Wyoming were once part of Mexico until the US stole it.>>

Hey comrade!! you know the history, obviously.. .. and you feel good about that? how exactly those lands were obtained (and lost) ...by both Mexico and the US?

Oh, and not just there.. but Canada and South and Central America....

Indigenous people were slaughtered.. Like A lot of them.... after helping those Spanish invaders survive on this hostile land.

what?.. no problem?? bfd?

I think that is exactly the point of that letter to the editor..

the whole thing has been minimized and trivalized and parodied, and holidized and it really doesn't matter anymore..

but you know what... It matters to me, motherfucker! :)

and it matters to a whole slew of other people too.

:):):)

[Unclebananahead]

It seems strange and contradictory that this guy should denounce what 'their' America did to his ancestors while praising and upholding 'his' America in 'defending it' from people coming here unlawfully (according to bourgeois law anyhow -- 'their' law). On one hand, it's a terrible 'their' America, which somehow transforms in his mind into 'his' "wonderful country." It's ugly and bizarre to me.

[coda]

pitiful intrepretion. the distinction between "wonderful country" and "hands of government" & "Amercan death march" seems clear enough...

[black magick hustla]

Yo! Perspective people---

the historical genocidal event known as Trail of Tears-- early 1830's, in which several tribes of indigenous people (regardless of ancestry)were forcibly marched from their small homelands--- many to their deaths, acrossed thousands of miles of unoccupied land, to camps and reservations where they were again forced to adopt the US imperalist transgressor's white culture, language and customs that were completely unknown to them and wholly against their consent and (most are still at those same reservations today) -- is in no way equivalent or comparable to the current issue of 21st century immigrants crossing the border to the US. It's misinformed at best to state that, ignorant in the least.

this is silly and it only makes sense if you are a banal benthamite that quantifies "suffering" and "happiness" and has extreme "i suffered more than thou" christian sensibilities. its akin to dumbass zionists arguing that to compare the ethnic cleansing of palestine to the holocaust is offensive. cmon

[GPDP]

<<To add, whole or parts of Arizona, California, Nevada, Texas, New Mexico, Utah, Colorado, and Wyoming were once part of Mexico until the US stole it.>>

Hey comrade!! you know the history, obviously.. .. and you feel good about that? how exactly those lands were obtained (and lost) ...by both Mexico and the US?

Oh, and not just there.. but Canada and South and Central America....

Indigenous people were slaughtered.. Like A lot of them.... after helping those Spanish invaders survive on this hostile land.

what?.. no problem?? bfd?

I think that is exactly the point of that letter to the editor..

the whole thing has been minimized and trivalized and parodied, and holidized and it really doesn't matter anymore..

but you know what... It matters to me, motherfucker! :)

and it matters to a whole slew of other people too.

:):):)

And you bet your ass that, as an undocumented "illegal" myself, it matters to me when someone who should be standing in solidarity with my people precisely BECAUSE his people suffered an even worse fate sides with the bourgeois in attacking us.

[coda]

interpretation and contextextual skills are lacking in this thread.

Suffering is subjective. In no way did I quantify the situation to be lesser or worse than the other, but rather to say they are different and incomparable in a formal analysis. Denying or conflating that fact is not helpful at all. yes, they share the common injustices that is typical of the racist imperial narrative of the US. Referring to the immigration issue as "The Trail of Tears", not even sure who is doing that-- the protesters? misidentifies it as ethnic cleansing and/or relocation--which is good if you don't care about having an accurate picture of what's going on. I would have liked to have read the news article that the letter had referenced because it's all kinda murky now. on another point.. AIM, The American Indian Movement does stand in solidarity with undocumented workers and citizens and those imprisoned and against all injustices perpretrated by the US and other governments. That person who wrote the letter does not speak for the whole movement or population.

[GPDP]

AIM, The American Indian Movement does stand in solidarity with undocumented workers and citizens and those imprisoned and against all injustices perpretrated by the US and other governments. That person who wrote the letter does not speak for the whole movement or population.

That's good to hear, and I never said the person in question represents the mentality of the Native American movement. All I said is it is sad that a person whose ancestors and contemporaries suffered and continue to suffer similar if not worse injustice than mine would then go on to badmouth "illegals" in an attempt to defend his heritage and I guess try to get on the good side of the very system that has committed so many atrocities against Natives and Mexicans alike.

[coda]

yah, agreed. i read it several times.. who can tell what his motive is for doing it? Badmouthing the immigration struggle is plain wrong. :( Whatever the case, if he's living in CA, then he probably isn't living on a reservation.

:crying:

[Red Commissar]

If he's anything like the other fellow I met who claimed to be of native descent, he's probably one of those who only calls himself Native when it is beneficial for him to do so but the rest of the time he could care less.

[The Count]

I completely agree with him. The land belonged to the Natives when the colonizers took it and forced them to relocate. The United States of America does not belong to illegal immigrants. It's incredibly dangerous to have the very lax border security that the United States does now. Borders are important; sovereignty is important. There are tens of millions of illegal immigrants in the United States. It's no secret that illegal immigration creates a gigantic crime issue; gang violence, human trafficking, identity theft, etc. all occur much more frequently now in the United States due to the surge of illegal immigration.

Comparing illegal immigrants being deported to the Natives being forcibly marched out of their own lands, many of them dying along the way, is a total insult to history and those who suffered.

[Unclebananahead]

I completely agree with him. The land belonged to the Natives when the colonizers took it and forced them to relocate. The United States of America does not belong to illegal immigrants. It's incredibly dangerous to have the very lax border security that the United States does now. Borders are important; sovereignty is important. There are tens of millions of illegal immigrants in the United States. It's no secret that illegal immigration creates a gigantic crime issue; gang violence, human trafficking, identity theft, etc. all occur much more frequently now in the United States due to the surge of illegal immigration.

Comparing illegal immigrants being deported to the Natives being forcibly marched out of their own lands, many of them dying along the way, is a total insult to history and those who suffered.

Interesting that you take the bourgeois legal position as a given, and argue from their standpoint, defending the sovereignty of the imperialist US. Against the 'foreign hordes invading it' no less.

[GPDP]

I completely agree with him. The land belonged to the Natives when the colonizers took it and forced them to relocate. The United States of America does not belong to illegal immigrants. It's incredibly dangerous to have the very lax border security that the United States does now. Borders are important; sovereignty is important. There are tens of millions of illegal immigrants in the United States. It's no secret that illegal immigration creates a gigantic crime issue; gang violence, human trafficking, identity theft, etc. all occur much more frequently now in the United States due to the surge of illegal immigration.

Comparing illegal immigrants being deported to the Natives being forcibly marched out of their own lands, many of them dying along the way, is a total insult to history and those who suffered.

Fuck off. Half of Mexico's territory was taken as an act of imperialist conquest by the United States, and countless Mexicans lost their land to American settlers with the approval, hell, the outright aid of the government.

And to argue that illegal immigration causes crime, and that the borders must be secured... ever thought that perhaps if the US had a comprehensible immigration system, no one would have to immigrate illegally? That maybe if the US didn't force bullshit like NAFTA into Mexico, that Mexicans might not see their jobs and opportunities disappear within their own country, forcing them to immigrate? And as for the sovereignty issue... what happened to "workers have no country?"

Seriously, you sound like a neocon.

[the last donut of the night]

I completely agree with him. The land belonged to the Natives when the colonizers took it and forced them to relocate. The United States of America does not belong to illegal immigrants. It's incredibly dangerous to have the very lax border security that the United States does now. Borders are important; sovereignty is important. There are tens of millions of illegal immigrants in the United States. It's no secret that illegal immigration creates a gigantic crime issue; gang violence, human trafficking, identity theft, etc. all occur much more frequently now in the United States due to the surge of illegal immigration.

Comparing illegal immigrants being deported to the Natives being forcibly marched out of their own lands, many of them dying along the way, is a total insult to history and those who suffered.

For someone who sympathizes with the plight of the Indians, you seem to be very strict in what your definition of "illegal" is. Why do you care for the terms and laws of an imperialist settler state? Aren't the illegal immigrants also the founders of the same country that took land from Indians and now hunts down immigrants as if they were animals? Why do you engage in this type of rhetoric against immigrants but don't understand that their struggle is the same?

[Unclebananahead]

Fuck off. Half of Mexico's territory was taken as an act of imperialist conquest by the United States, and countless Mexicans lost their land to American settlers with the approval, hell, the outright aid of the government.

And to argue that illegal immigration causes crime, and that the borders must be secured... ever thought that perhaps if the US had a comprehensible immigration system, no one would have to immigrate illegally? That maybe if the US didn't force bullshit like NAFTA into Mexico, that Mexicans might not see their jobs and opportunities disappear within their own country, forcing them to immigrate? And as for the sovereignty issue... what happened to "workers have no country?"

Seriously, you sound like a neocon.

Sorry Count, but I'm going to have to second GPDP's view. What you're articulating, are essentially mainstream American nationalist/'nativist' (but not 'American Indian nativist') views, which under most normal circumstances I don't even dignify with a response.

[Luís Henrique]

Mildly idiotic.

If you want something really ugly coming from those quarters, secure your jaws, and look at this:

http://www.badeagle.com/

Luís Henrique

[Unclebananahead]

Mildly idiotic.

If you want something really ugly coming from those quarters, secure your jaws, and look at this:

http://www.badeagle.com/

Luís Henrique

Ugh. Now that's pretty genuinely heinous. This guy almost seems to be trying to win some sort of ideological ugliness award. What is he, some sort of Indian reservation casino operator who wants to keep his goodies from being taken away from him by the communist hordes biding their time in the shadows, waiting for the right opportunity to expropriate everything he has, including his toothbrush?

[Fulanito de Tal]

<<To add, whole or parts of Arizona, California, Nevada, Texas, New Mexico, Utah, Colorado, and Wyoming were once part of Mexico until the US stole it.>>

Hey comrade!! you know the history, obviously.. .. and you feel good about that? how exactly those lands were obtained (and lost) ...by both Mexico and the US?

Oh, and not just there.. but Canada and South and Central America....

Indigenous people were slaughtered.. Like A lot of them.... after helping those Spanish invaders survive on this hostile land.

what?.. no problem?? bfd?

I think that is exactly the point of that letter to the editor..

the whole thing has been minimized and trivalized and parodied, and holidized and it really doesn't matter anymore..

but you know what... It matters to me, motherfucker! :)

and it matters to a whole slew of other people too.

:):):)

I feel okay about knowing what I wrote.

Anyway, I think the person is being silly over the "illegal immigration" deal.

The Europeans came to to America and killed a vast percent of the population, destroyed the society, and drew a line on the ground. They called one side of the line US and Mexico the other. The person that wrote the letter is a decedent of those whose land was taken away. He lives on the side of the line that is called US. He gets upset when his "cousins" on the other side of the line cross it without permission from those that drew the line on his land.

[coda]

<<<The Europeans came to to America and killed a vast percent of the population, destroyed the society, and drew a line on the ground. They called one side of the line US and Mexico the other. The person that wrote the letter is a decedent of those whose land was taken away. He lives on the side of the line that is called US. He gets upset when his "cousins" on the other side of the line cross it without permission from those that drew the line on his land.>>

Well, yeah, to trivialize the brutalality of it, then you are right, in the simplistic eyeview. For native americans it is less about stolen land as they lived impermanetly on so very little of it. It is more about the genocide, systematic decimation, forced loss of established cultures and freedom, and the subsequent long term imprisonment, isolation, poverty, subhuman deplorable conditions on reservations. These issues are not limited to the US, but to the indigenous people of Mexico and Canada and elsewhere in the world-- Australia, Brazil.. on and on. In Mexico, under Marco's they held a decade and a 1/2 war of resistance for the most basic civil rights, that of being recognized as human beings... and all kinds of stuff is also going on with the Mohawk in Canada. while I don't agree with the letter writer's resentfulness against Immigration.. I very well agree with the complaint of his letter in referring to the immigration dispute as "The Trail of Tears". If we want to draw a fair comparison to another event in history perhaps it more closely resembes the My Lai Massacre and should be called that instead?

Oh but I so agree with you that the ideas of land possession and drawn lines.... borders, nations, countries, continents... is a myth that needs to be unlearned.