Growing support for the Palestinian cause

[Che a chara]

With the recognition and acknowledgement of a Palestine state and it's existence from numerous South American nations (http://arabnews.com/middleeast/article237657.ece) (seemingly Peru (http://www.google.com/hostednews/canadianpress/article/ALeqM5hMiYqBrY9m9mJ-NUGRB1A0Q9UAsg?docId=5748566) too) and also Norway's recent indication (http://www.icenews.is/index.php/2011/01/20/norway-to-recognise-palestine-if-peace-talks-fail/) of following suit if peace talks fail as well as a Palestine embassy reported to opening soon in Ireland (http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-4018950,00.html), what response can we expect from Israel and the USA ? The recent leaks from al-jazeera, though yet to be independently verified, shows the enormous pressure being applied strictly and exclusively on Palestine, but now surely it would be in Israel and the USA's best interest to cease the unreasonable demands and continuation of building illegal settlements and other oppressive measures carried out on Palestine/occupied territories. What would be gained for failing to do so ? It could well increase future problems, contradictions and hostilities.

The growing international support has to be totally commended and hopefully will help see a rightful independent and sovereign Palestine state free from oppression being constituted.

What do Israel really see as a threat that hinders progress ?

[Die Rote Fahne]

Here's the mistake. Israel isn't afraid that they will be hurt if the peace talks are successful, they fear that they will not be able to steal the remaining Palestinian lands.

Israel is well aware that it's safety and security will be better if a Palestinian state were formed and thtr occupation 100% ended. However, they don't actually care. Zionism is more than support of Israel, it's the idea that Israel and the Jewish diaspora are the god given owners of the land in Palestine.

Until the argument of "anti zionism = anti semitism" is recognized as incorrect and slanderous, the Palestinian state will remain a dream.

[HEAD ICE]

Israel is hardly occupying the West Bank and Gaza because it is their "god given" land. Rather, the occupied territories provide great wealth to Israel, especially water.

Also, I don't think a Palestinian state is going to "remain a dream" because of bad ideas people possess in their minds, but rather the material conditions makes it a dream. Either you have an independent Bantustan wholly dependent on Israel, Jordan, and Egypt (Jordan, along with Lebanon and Syria, have no problem matching the butchers in Israel when it comes to massacring Palestinians) while no doubt being under constant military siege. I'm not even going to bother with a "one state solution."

[RGacky3]

Hailtothetheif is absolutely correct, this has nothing to do with security, its plain old school imperialism.

in my opinion the ONLY thing that will stop Isreal is if the US ends its miliary aid.

[Bud Struggle]

in my opinion the ONLY thing that will stop Isreal is if the US ends its miliary aid.

I agree with you there. And the only thing that could make that happen is a long slow education policy after america disengages with Iraq and Afghanistan in the Middle East. At the present time the American people would never stand for such a thing if Obama tried it.

[vDv]

The problem is really that Israel is almost an outpost for the west in the middle east.
So long as it exists it will always receive aid from the american government in order to keep a strong influence in the region, and by being there Israel justifies it's existence with the constant threats and attacks it will receive.

It's a terrible cycle. Israel is attacked so the Americans give them military aid, the Israeli's receive and use American military aid and so they will be attacked.

[HEAD ICE]

If America ditches Israel (impossible) China will easily fill the void.

[Die Rote Fahne]

Israel is hardly occupying the West Bank and Gaza because it is their "god given" land. Rather, the occupied territories provide great wealth to Israel, especially water.

Also, I don't think a Palestinian state is going to "remain a dream" because of bad ideas people possess in their minds, but rather the material conditions makes it a dream. Either you have an independent Bantustan wholly dependent on Israel, Jordan, and Egypt (Jordan, along with Lebanon and Syria, have no problem matching the butchers in Israel when it comes to massacring Palestinians) while no doubt being under constant military siege. I'm not even going to bother with a "one state solution."

Shall we remember the 3 G's of imperialism?

[vDv]

If America ditches Israel (impossible) China will easily fill the void.

I know China has been spreading it's "soft power" and influence across the world. But what exactly would they have the gain in this situation?

Surely they would be better off supporting palestine and the Arab powers, knowing full well that Israel adheres to the wishes of an elite group of westerners and zionists.

If the USA were to drop its support Israel would crumble, so why would China prop it up when there's the possibility of gaining influence over the whole region through the arab world?

[RGacky3]

At the present time the American people would never stand for such a thing if Obama tried it.

I disagree with you, the Isreal lobby might not like it, but I doubt that occupations, blockaids and settlements are popular with American people.

Honestly all that needs to be done is for it to be stopped, theres nothing stopping the US from just stopping the aid.



If America ditches Israel (impossible) China will easily fill the void.


I doubt that.

[Bud Struggle]

I disagree with you, the Isreal lobby might not like it, but I doubt that occupations, blockaids and settlements are popular with American people.

Honestly all that needs to be done is for it to be stopped, theres nothing stopping the US from just stopping the aid.


There is the entire problem of the milleniunist Born Again Christians that see the present Israeli state as a Biblical Prophecy. They would put up quite a stink if America stopped supporting Israel. There would be big campaigns about "Obama doing the work of the Devil" and "America turns to Satan."

Polititian wouldn't risk that kind of publicity because Born Again Christians vote and ONLY VOTES MATTER.

[RGacky3]

There is the entire problem of the milleniunist Born Again Christians that see the present Israeli state as a Biblical Prophecy. They would put up quite a stink if America stopped supporting Israel.

Yeah, but numerically, there arn't that many of them.


There would be big campaigns about "Obama doing the work of the Devil" and "America turns to Satan."


And they would be laughed at by everyone else.


Polititian wouldn't risk that kind of publicity because Born Again Christians vote and ONLY VOTES MATTER.

If politicians actually stood for something and worked for the people, maybe more people would vote :)

[balaclava]

What is a state? What does declaring Palestine a state mean – what will change? I know there are countries (states) in the world which are nothing more than a bunch of people inside a border and I sometimes wonder whether they should lose their status as a ‘country’ but taking it away and giving it is another thing. Surely there are some fundamentals which must exist before a something is declared as a state/country? Does the current dogs dinner which Gaza and the West Bank meet that criteria?

[Dimentio]

There is the entire problem of the milleniunist Born Again Christians that see the present Israeli state as a Biblical Prophecy. They would put up quite a stink if America stopped supporting Israel. There would be big campaigns about "Obama doing the work of the Devil" and "America turns to Satan."

Polititian wouldn't risk that kind of publicity because Born Again Christians vote and ONLY VOTES MATTER.

That group is actually dangerous. Luckily, it seems like they mostly are pestering (growing) in Africa right now.

[ComradeMan]

"Chomsky: No, that's quite false, I don't regard myself as a critic of Israel. I regard myself as a supporter of Israel. The people who are harming Israel, in my opinion, as I said many times, are those who claim to be supporting Israel [...] Let's go back a step. You said I am calling for the destruction of Israel or some words to that effect. Well, I don't think it should exist as a Jewish state, [just as] I don't think the United States should exist as a Christian state [...] Insofar as [Israel] is not a state of its citizens but a state of a special category of its citizens, I object to it in principle. [...] Though I was opposed to the existence of a Jewish state [before 1948], [...] once it was formed in 1948, my position has consistently been that Israel should have the rights of every state in the international system, no more and no less. Now Israel demands more and I don't agree with it."
http://www.chomsky.info/onchomsky/20100731.htm

[Baseball]

The reason why some countries have "recognised" a Palestinian state is to flex their own muscles and/or poke an eye in the USA and Israel.

It is an absolute joke to suppose that a Palestine run by an Islamic theocracy will somehow result in Palestinians being free from oppression. For any "revlefter" to even entertain that notion demonstrates an intellectual bankruptcy. At least a continued to devotion to the labor theory of value makes sense on a certain level.

It should also be pointed out the USA had an arms embargo against Israel through the Kennedy years. There was no major military support of Israel until the Nixon Administration and after the 1973. Israel was quiet able to deal with the Arab states who sought its destruction.

For that was, and remains, the problem in the Mid east. Until the Arabs (and I guess now it would be more accurate to say Islam or fundamentalist Islam) recognizes Israel's right to exist, and understands that Israel is not going anywhere, there will always be problem.
Everything else is secondary and a smokescreen to that real source of the problem.

[ComradeMan]

I see no one makes mention of the "apartheid" of the Palestinian Authority, it's lack of religious tollerance and the treatment of "ethnic-Palestinian" Christians. :rolleyes:

[RGacky3]

I see no one makes mention of the "apartheid" of the Palestinian Authority, it's lack of religious tollerance and the treatment of "ethnic-Palestinian" Christians. :rolleyes:


Wheres this?


The reason why some countries have "recognised" a Palestinian state is to flex their own muscles and/or poke an eye in the USA and Israel.


Yeah, thats why, because poking the USA in the eye is such a great geopolical move, flex their own muscles? How about because its a legitimate authority?


It is an absolute joke to suppose that a Palestine run by an Islamic theocracy will somehow result in Palestinians being free from oppression. For any "revlefter" to even entertain that notion demonstrates an intellectual bankruptcy. At least a continued to devotion to the labor theory of value makes sense on a certain level.


How is that a justification for an Isreali blockade, settlements, occupation and so on?


It should also be pointed out the USA had an arms embargo against Israel through the Kennedy years.

I want to see where you read this.


For that was, and remains, the problem in the Mid east. Until the Arabs (and I guess now it would be more accurate to say Islam or fundamentalist Islam) recognizes Israel's right to exist, and understands that Israel is not going anywhere, there will always be problem.
Everything else is secondary and a smokescreen to that real source of the problem.

Thats not the problem, no one is seriously trying to get rid of Isreal as a state, not accepting the legitimacy of the nation is not the same thing, I don't accept their legitimacy, but I don't want to kick them out of Isreal.

[ComradeMan]

Where's this?

Do some research on Palestinian Christians, homosexuality and women's rights in the PA.

On Palestinian Christians..

Here's a Christian source
http://blog.echurchwebsites.org.uk/2009/11/15/palestinian-christians-suffer-under-the-palestinian-authority/

and a Jerusalem source
http://www.jcpa.org/jl/vp490.htm

Also Hamas shut down the YMCA by force and some other stuff.

Although not directly connected, the Palestinian Islamic Army have been accused of perpetrating the attacks on Coptic Christians recently in Egypt.

There is another issue of the corruption within the PA too, whilst people were going hungry and struggling for medical provisions others were making money.

[HEAD ICE]

I doubt that.

Israel provides a very important role in geopolitics, and a dominant power would love to have Israel on their side.

Also, I suggest you read about Israeli-Chinese relations. They are very close.

[Dimentio]

I see no one makes mention of the "apartheid" of the Palestinian Authority, it's lack of religious tollerance and the treatment of "ethnic-Palestinian" Christians. :rolleyes:

Even if the Palestinians ran around naked and threw faeces upon one another while laughing hysterically, and then proceeded to roast and eat babies, they would still have the right for national self-determination.

What does a country's culture or the various repressions that exist within said culture have to do with external repression? Do peoples who fail to conform to your standards have less rights to their own homeland?

[RGacky3]

I guess the SOviet Union should have occupied the US in the 50s because of how bad the Americans were treating black people in the south.

[ComradeMan]

Even if the Palestinians ran around naked and threw faeces upon one another while laughing hysterically, and then proceeded to roast and eat babies, they would still have the right for national self-determination.

What does a country's culture or the various repressions that exist within said culture have to do with external repression? Do peoples who fail to conform to your standards have less rights to their own homeland?

No, you misunderstand my position.

I support the one-state solution, not the creation of two even more ethnically narrow states that would be hostile to each other, and ironically see the Palestinians limited geographically and vulnerable. You may as well give Gaza to Egypt and the West Bank to Jordan as I see it.

The point I am making is that the Palestinian Authority is not particularly wonderful and a lot of the shit that goes on by them is not so well-known. I also bring attention to the fate of the "forgotten" Palestinians, i.e. the Palestinian Christians who often seem to be left out of the equation totally.

[Dimentio]

Everyone knows that.

No one here supports Abbas, and just a few hotheads & sociopaths support Hamas in Gaza.

Why are you so obsessed about attacking strawmen and windmills?

[ComradeMan]

Everyone knows that.

No one here supports Abbas, and just a few hotheads & sociopaths support Hamas in Gaza.

Why are you so obsessed about attacking strawmen and windmills?

Well, perhaps I wasn't just speaking to you but also to them? Everyone knows that is a big statement, everyone does not necessarily know that and in the past, in the real world, when I mentioned Palestinian Christians for example people were not aware of the issue.

They are not strawmen when we are discussing, in this thread, amongst other things the recognition of the Palestinian Authority as a state.

[Dimentio]

Well, perhaps I wasn't just speaking to you but also to them? Everyone knows that is a big statement, everyone does not necessarily know that and in the past, in the real world, when I mentioned Palestinian Christians for example people were not aware of the issue.

They are not strawmen when we are discussing, in this thread, amongst other things the recognition of the Palestinian Authority as a state.

The Palestinians themselves obviously believe that the PA and that Hamas are legitimate (while one side is consisting of kleptrocrats and the other of fascists). Besides, the Israelis are like 99% in control of the situation.

[synthesis]

Even if the Palestinians ran around naked and threw faeces upon one another while laughing hysterically, and then proceeded to roast and eat babies, they would still have the right for national self-determination.

What does a country's culture or the various repressions that exist within said culture have to do with external repression? Do peoples who fail to conform to your standards have less rights to their own homeland?

What defines a "people" and what gives them a right to their own homeland?

[ComradeMan]

The Palestinians themselves obviously believe that the PA and that Hamas are legitimate (while one side is consisting of kleptrocrats and the other of fascists). Besides, the Israelis are like 99% in control of the situation.

This is a dangerous argument. So what if the majority of people in a given country thought their fascist party were legitimate? Secondly, when it comes to certain groups like you have mentioned- do they really? Is there a fair an objective source? How much of that is down to fear of retribution? You also forget that Hamas was set up by Israel basically, in the 1980s.

I also repeat Synthesis' question: How do you exactly define people and what gives them any more right to "own" the land than anyone else?

[RGacky3]

Comrade man, heres the thing, do I have problems with Hamas? Absolutely, do I have problems with Abbas? Most definately.

HOWEVER, that does not justify the occupation, settlemants and so on, I know thats not what you are saying, however that is the immediate problem, as was said before Isreal is the people who are in control of the situation, they are the people in power so thats the power that needs to be faught.

Its kind of the same thing as the Taliban argument.

Also Hamas for example is much more reasonable than the Isreali government.

[ComradeMan]

Comrade man, heres the thing, do I have problems with Hamas? Absolutely, do I have problems with Abbas? Most definately.

HOWEVER, that does not justify the occupation, settlemants and so on, I know thats not what you are saying, however that is the immediate problem, as was said before Isreal is the people who are in control of the situation, they are the people in power so thats the power that needs to be faught..

The problem is not so simple as that- you have to look at it from 360 degrees taking into account all the factors, both internal and external.


Also Hamas for example is much more reasonable than the Isreali government.

Why do you say that? You forget that is has been said that Hamas was basically and Israeli set up. Leaving that aside how can you say that religious fanatics who want to establish a decidely undemocratic theocracy, commit acts of violence against their opponents, shoot at striking workers, discriminate on the basis of gender, orientation and religion and commit arbitrary act of violence against civilians are in any way shape or form "more reasonable" than the Israeli government?

Could you explain that?

[RGacky3]

The problem is not so simple as that- you have to look at it from 360 degrees taking into account all the factors, both internal and external.


But the problem WE have to deal with first is that of imperialism that the west funds.


Leaving that aside how can you say that religious fanatics who want to establish a decidely undemocratic theocracy, commit acts of violence against their opponents, shoot at striking workers, discriminate on the basis of gender, orientation and religion and commit arbitrary act of violence against civilians are in any way shape or form "more reasonable" than the Israeli government?


Shoot at striking workers? Is there a rouce for that? They were elected democratically sooo, and it was free, as far as the political opponants it was done by both sides all over, religious fanatics? Sure, some of them, but so are many in the Isreali government.

The Isreali government also commits violence against civilians to a MUCH larger degree, and has done more to derail any sort of peace, where as Hamas has tried to sit down at a table for peace and has also kept ceasefires whereas Isreal has broken almost all of them

Thats why I say that. When Hamas gets real power, if they abuse it, I'll speak against them too.

[braintao]

Hailtothetheif is absolutely correct

[ComradeMan]

But the problem WE have to deal with first is that of imperialism that the west funds. Shoot at striking workers? Is there a rouce for that? They were elected democratically sooo, and it was free, as far as the political opponants it was done by both sides all over, religious fanatics? Sure, some of them, but so are many in the Isreali government..

You need to get informed on Hamas and Fatah-
http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSL27730120080902

http://www.socialistparty.org.uk/html_article/2006-457-index?id=pp9.htm

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fatah%E2%80%93Hamas_conflict


The Isreali government also commits violence against civilians to a MUCH larger degree, and has done more to derail any sort of peace, where as Hamas has tried to sit down at a table for peace and has also kept ceasefires whereas Isreal has broken almost all of them.

Tu quoque? But no one here is defending the Israeli government--- who were democratically elected. People here are criticising support of a group who have little in common with leftist principles. You could also note that Hamas has used children as human shields...


Thats why I say that. When Hamas gets real power, if they abuse it, I'll speak against them too.

Read the Hamas Charter too and you might understand the reason why Israelis are not so keen on them:-

Article 7 of the Hamas Covenant provides the following quotation, attributed to Mohammed (http://www.revleft.com/wiki/Mohammed): "The Day of Judgement will not come about until Moslems fight the Jews (killing the Jews), when the Jew will hide behind stones and trees. The stones and trees will say O Moslems, O Abdulla, there is a Jew behind me, come and kill him. Only the Gharkad tree, (evidently a certain kind of tree) would not do that because it is one of the trees of the Jews."
The Avalon Project: Hamas Covenant 1988 (http://avalon.law.yale.edu/20th_century/hamas.asp). Retrieved February 9, 2009.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hamas#cite_note-avalon.law.yale.edu-202


In February 2008 a Haaretz (http://www.revleft.com/wiki/Haaretz) poll indicated that 64% of Israelis favour their government holding direct talks with Hamas in Gaza about a cease-fire and the release of captives.
According to a November 2009 survey conducted by Haaretz (http://www.revleft.com/wiki/Haaretz), 57% of Israelis support the view of MK Shaul Mofaz (http://www.revleft.com/wiki/Shaul_Mofaz) of Kadima (http://www.revleft.com/wiki/Kadima), that Israel should establish a dialogue with Hamas under certain conditions, for example, that Hamas renounces violence, recognizes Israel's right to exist as a Jewish nation, and loses its designation as a terrorist organization. Hamas responded to this by labeling it "Zionist vulgarity" and stating that they will never negotiate with or recognize their "enemy", the state of Israel.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hamas#In_Israel
^ (http://www.revleft.com/vb/#cite_ref-335) Yossi Verter (February 27, 2008). "Poll: Most Israelis back direct talks with Hamas on Shalit" (http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/958473.html). Haaretz (http://www.revleft.com/wiki/Haaretz). http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/958473.html. Retrieved February 27, 2008.
^ (http://www.revleft.com/vb/#cite_ref-336) Haaretz poll: 57% of Israelis support plan to talk to Hamas. By Yossi Verter, Haaretz Correspondent (http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1127911.html). Accessed: November 14, 2009.
^ (http://www.revleft.com/vb/#cite_ref-337) Mualem, Mazal (November 8, 2009). "Haaretz.com" (http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1126655.html). Haaretz.com. http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1126655.html. Retrieved May 27, 2010.

[RGacky3]

You need to get informed on Hamas and Fatah-
http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSL27730120080902 (http://www.anonym.to/?http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSL27730120080902)

http://www.socialistparty.org.uk/htm...dex?id=pp9.htm (http://www.anonym.to/?http://www.socialistparty.org.uk/html_article/2006-457-index?id=pp9.htm)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fatah%E...Hamas_conflict (http://www.anonym.to/?http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fatah%E2%80%93Hamas_conflict)



Maybe I do, I'll check those links out when I can.


But no one here is defending the Israeli government--- who were democratically elected. People here are criticising support of a group who have little in common with leftist principles. You could also note that Hamas has used children as human shields...


Hamas was also democratically elected.

Look Hamas is NOT a leftist group, nor is it one that I really support, however, it is juts as legitimate or just as illilegitimate as the Isreali government.

If your going to go on about Hamases human rights crime, sure, but we're talking pirates and emperors here.


Hamas responded to this by labeling it "Zionist vulgarity" and stating that they will never negotiate with or recognize their "enemy", the state of Israel.


Except they have called for exactly that in recent years and they have acted on it, while the Isreali government has faught against it.

As far as the Hamas charter, yeah its definately wrong, but they are still acting more reaonsable than the isrealis, when it comes to pursuing peace.

I don't understand why you are focusing on Hamas when they PALE in comparison to the Isreali atrocities.

But look, I'll read those links, take the issues in context, who maybe I'll learn something I did'nt know.

[Dimentio]

What defines a "people" and what gives them a right to their own homeland?

If we say that a group has lived in a place for several generations and are a majority, and then suddenly a minority of colonialists are arriving and pressing the majority into Bantustans, then they have the right to struggle for their own national sovereignty.

[PhoenixAsh]

Hamas, PLO and Fatah are all symptoms of the situation created by the unilateral creation of the state of Israel and the situations leading up to that event.

They are bad, but they would not exist nor have such large popular support if it weren't for the fact that there is no alternative for the Palestinians.

As such the only way to stop these kind of organisations is to root out its cause.

[RGacky3]

I've read those links, and its news to me, and obviously its dispicable, but again, you look at the macro situation, its still pirates and emperors.



Hamas, PLO and Fatah are all symptoms of the situation created by the unilateral creation of the state of Israel and the situations leading up to that event.

They are bad, but they would not exist nor have such large popular support if it weren't for the fact that there is no alternative for the Palestinians.

As such the only way to stop these kind of organisations is to root out its cause.


Absolutely right, a good test of that is what things were like before Imperialism.

[ComradeMan]

Hamas, PLO and Fatah are all symptoms of the situation created by the unilateral creation of the state of Israel and the situations leading up to that event.

They are bad, but they would not exist nor have such large popular support if it weren't for the fact that there is no alternative for the Palestinians.

As such the only way to stop these kind of organisations is to root out its cause.

i.e. support groups that work on a horizontal pan-nationality/religion basis like Hadash for example.
;)

[Amphictyonis]

I wonder if Benjamin Netanyahu ever trolls internet forums and laughs at the futility of us complaining about everything? I think more pressure should be put on Israeli citizens, pressure them to form bonds/an alliance with Palestinians. I recently saw a video of x Israeli soldiers making friends with Palestinians.

http://www.revleft.com/vb/growing-support-palestinian-t148817/index.html

The way forward is through the people. Fuck the Israeli state.

[Che a chara]

Support for the recognition of a Palestinian state is gaining momentum in the Irish Free state, being pushed through by Sinn Fein:

Pádraig MacLochlainn calls on the Irish Government to recognise Palestine as an Independent State

ja8Wj19iNa8
:)

[Viet Minh]

The problem is to recognise a state you need to recognise its Government, and Hamas and the PA have not formally agreed to peace treaties, therefore recognition of them is supporting the violence in their name, which few other nations would be willing to do. By the same token recognising Israel justifies the occupation, blockade etc. What is needed is a neutral peace treaty, Israel needs to drop the crap about a Jewish State, Israel should exist (within the 1947 borders) as a place where jews can live in peace, but not as a Jewish State as such. Likewise Hamas need to drop the 'Islamist Army' rhetoric, its understandable given their respective history but it doesn't get them anywhere. The difficulty is there are many on either side who are genuinely not interested in peace, and look for any excuse to resume hostilities. And usually they're the ones who get into power.

[Che a chara]

The problem is to recognise a state you need to recognise its Government, and Hamas and the PA have not formally agreed to peace treaties, therefore recognition of them is supporting the violence in their name, which few other nations would be willing to do. By the same token recognising Israel justifies the occupation, blockade etc. What is needed is a neutral peace treaty, Israel needs to drop the crap about a Jewish State, Israel should exist (within the 1947 borders) as a place where jews can live in peace, but not as a Jewish State as such. Likewise Hamas need to drop the 'Islamist Army' rhetoric, its understandable given their respective history but it doesn't get them anywhere. The difficulty is there are many on either side who are genuinely not interested in peace, and look for any excuse to resume hostilities. And usually they're the ones who get into power.

I'm not too sure what the legalities are for recognising a state, but i think there is now over 100 nations that recognise a Palestinian state--most i think at it's 1967 borders, and others undefined. of course, the US and Israel see this as somewhat a crime :rolleyes:.

At the rate of Israel's illegal activities, the occupied regions are becoming near extinct, so the obvious and humane thing to do is to recognise these occupied regions as Palestine territory, including east Al-quds.