Tunis Revolutoin

[RGacky3]

I'm supprised no one has started a thread on this, workers uprising in Tunisia, an uprising of the workers, unemployed and middle class, some people are calling it the first wikirebellion (althought it really wan'nst that), its would be interesting to see what comes out of it, I hope the establishment does'nt just try and reinstitute the same system under a different facade, opinions?

[TheCultofAbeLincoln]

Yeah I thought the absence of a thread on this revolution was kinda comical honestly.

It'd be nice to see the actions of the Tunisian revolutionaires suceed and become an example for other workers in the region living under dictators.

[ComradeMan]

I posted a thread on the Algerian situation a couple of weeks ago and there wasn't much feed back to be honest. :( No one is talking about the Albanian situation either.

Of course all these committed revolutionary leftists and maoist-third worldists are far too busy discussing the revolutionary nature of restaurant chains and defending the Khmer Rouge to be bothered with an actual revolutionary situation that's going on.

I was talking to some North African guys, Moroccans, Algerians and Tunisians the other day. They are quite worried, understandably, but they tended to feel that the leadership in Tunisia had it coming. One of them was showing me a picture or something in a newspaper of the former president's Ferrari and laughing about how even a Ferrari wasn't fast enough to save his ass when the people couldn't afford bread.... :lol:

[bcbm]

Of course all these committed revolutionary leftists and maoist-third worldists are far too busy discussing the revolutionary nature of restaurant chains and defending the Khmer Rouge to be bothered with an actual revolutionary situation that's going on.

um there's threads about it in ongoing struggles and politics

[ComradeMan]

um there's threads about it in ongoing struggles and politics

This is OI and we're talking about it here. What happens on the "other" board of the Libertarian troll site is of no concern to OI-ers.

[Bright Banana Beard]

Because this is OI, not a place to discuss ongoing revolt....

[balaclava]

Is revolution always a good thing? I am forming the view that if you call your insurrection a revolution it gets automatic support from the ‘left,’ is that correct?

The reason I ask is because, although I don’t know where the Tunisian things going to end up I wouldn’t be surprised if they end up with another Ayatollah in charge and the first thing he’ll do is chop off the heads of all the left wingers!

[Bud Struggle]

An interesting op-ed piece on the Revolt.

http://articles.cnn.com/2011-01-15/opinion/brumberg.tunisia.revolt_1_tunisia-arab-leaders-ben-ali?_s=PM:OPINION

It seems in some ways Tunisia was giving its people a good education and madernizing quite well. The problem was entirely political--it was a dictator ship. I rather imagine it will become an Islamocentric western style democracy. I also think some of the old elements will still have a good deal of power--only more behimd the scenes. I haven't seen Socialism discussed in the media (but who knows?)

Overall there is nothing wrong with national self determination.

[Kiev Communard]

Is revolution always a good thing? I am forming the view that if you call your insurrection a revolution it gets automatic support from the ‘left,’ is that correct?

The reason I ask is because, although I don’t know where the Tunisian things going to end up I wouldn’t be surprised if they end up with another Ayatollah in charge and the first thing he’ll do is chop off the heads of all the left wingers!

Such an outcome is strongly doubtful. As of today, I have yet to see any evidence pertaining to any involvement of the Islamist groups in the organization of the actual rebellion, while the role of the trade unions is mentioned constantly.

[gorillafuck]

Of course all these committed revolutionary leftists and maoist-third worldists are far too busy discussing the revolutionary nature of restaurant chains and defending the Khmer Rouge to be bothered with an actual revolutionary situation that's going on.
Because if there's anything that revleft is full of, it's maoist-third worldists and khmer rouge defenders.


This is OI and we're talking about it here. What happens on the "other" board of the Libertarian troll site is of no concern to OI-ers.
Then don't be saying that this isn't being talked about.

[Sentinel]

I rather imagine it will become an Islamocentric western style democracy.Highly unlikely, considering that the protests have overwhelmingly been secular in nature. It's a great spreading ground for socialist ideas.


I also think some of the old elements will still have a good deal of power--only more behimd the scenes. I doubt that, and the protesters really don't seem to be content with that either. :)


I haven't seen Socialism discussed in the media (but who knows?) The aims of the local socialists should include striving for a national strike, as a measure to seize power for a network of worker's committees and councils. That would create workers power, which is the main prequisite for authentic socialism.

But I think the revolution also needs to be successful in several countries in the region for long term gains to be made. The protests have, however, already spread into Algeria, Egypt, and other countries so the situation is looking good in that regard. ;)

But we will see what happens, this is just the beginning..

[TheCultofAbeLincoln]

I very much hope that another strongman, US-backed or otherwise, does not come to power. Even if such a dictator claims to be the proletarian savior, it would be a coup for Mr Mubarak, Mr Bouteflika, Mr Gaddafi, and other regional despots like in Mauritania. There can be little doubt that all of these leaders are hoping to see the revolution in Tunisia fail and, in some cases, are no doubt doing whatever they can to hinder the revolution as much as possible.

Right now it seems all these other countries are trying to perform as much damage control as possible. Despite protesters emulating the Tunisians who lit themselves aflame in protest, it doesn't appear the revolution has spread yet, but it is early. One theory a friend proposed was that since this was almost entirely a secular revolution, perhaps those who sympathize with it most in places like Egypt are not those who have been the most confrontational with the state, ie the muslim brotherhood.

I don't agree with that assessment personally, though I can see the reasoning behind it. I'm much more inclined to hope and look at Tunisia as another example of the people, without any leaders or imams or proletarian vanguard bullshit, coming together and removing their leaders away like a lion swatting away some flies.

[ComradeMan]

Because if there's anything that revleft is full of, it's maoist-third worldists and khmer rouge defenders.

Well it seems like it at times.


Then don't be saying that this isn't being talked about.

It was Gacky and the CultofAbeLincoln who made the original point(s). Seeing as the post is in OI I thought it would be obvious what the context was.

[RGacky3]

It seems in some ways Tunisia was giving its people a good education and madernizing quite well. The problem was entirely political--it was a dictator ship. I rather imagine it will become an Islamocentric western style democracy. I also think some of the old elements will still have a good deal of power--only more behimd the scenes. I haven't seen Socialism discussed in the media (but who knows?)

Its not a socialist revolution as far as I can see, but it is economic from what I've read, the political corruption was a large part of the economic problems.

[gorillafuck]

Well it seems like it at times.
Name 3.

On topic, yeah these protests have been very secular and very working class centered. It's hard to make predictions right now, though.

[TheCultofAbeLincoln]

zeekloid, comrademan, please find a post on some bullshit to argue about. Thanks in advance.

_2VsGQpNnqA

[Bud Struggle]

Highly unlikely, considering that the protests have overwhelmingly been secular in nature. It's a great spreading ground for socialist ideas. Nope. I think Islam will play a part in the government, at least in the Constitution. Not at all like Iran but more like what the US installed in Iraq. I don't think there is a starting point or template for a Socialistic society in Tunisia. Remember that Egypt had that make up and was pretty much failing until they eastablished market reforms and became more Capitalistic a while ago.


I doubt that, and the protesters really don't seem to be content with that either. :) I don't think thay want it either. It's all about how far they are willing to go and how muchthey are willing to sacrifice to get what they want. Don't forget they've been oppressed so long that even a little freedom will seem like a great thing. But--we really don't know yet.


The aims of the local socialists should include striving for a national strike, as a measure to seize power for a network of worker's committees and councils. That would create workers power, which is the main prequisite for authentic socialism. Do they even have "local Socialists?"


But I think the revolution also needs to be successful in several countries in the region for long term gains to be made. The protests have, however, already spread into Algeria, Egypt, and other countries so the situation is looking good in that regard. ;) Well, OK.

But we will see what happens, this is just the beginning.

[Matty_UK]

Do they even have "local Socialists?"

I believe the Communist Workers Party and the trade unions (who surely count many socialists in their number) have been 2 of the major forces in the revolt.

Source:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2011/jan/18/tunisia-ben-ali-dictator-coalition


The alternative strategy – and the task now facing the Tunisian people – is to build a wide coalition of the forces that can dismantle the legacy of the despotic post-colonial state and bring about the change their people have been yearning for decades. This has been the driving force for the alliance being forged between the Communist Workers' Party, led by Hamma al-Hammami, the charismatic Moncef al-Marzouqi's Congress Party for the Republic, and Ennahda, led by my father Rachid Ghannouchi, along with trade unionists, and civil society activists.


This is a recent statement they released regarding the unrest:


http://www.socialistunity.com/?p=7544



15 January, 2011

STATEMENT BY THE COMMUNIST WORKERS PARTY OF TUNISIA (http://www.socialistunity.com/?p=7544)

Filed under: Arab world (http://www.socialistunity.com/?cat=420), Tunisia (http://www.socialistunity.com/?cat=419) — admin @ 3:53 pm
Tunisia has lived since December 17, 2010, the day when the current popular revolt against unemployment, exclusion, poverty, cost of living, the shameless exploitation, corruption, injustice and tyranny began. These popular protests started in the city of Sidi Bouzid and have since extended to all parts of the country. Poverty and tyranny, endured in the city, are a general phenomenon that affects all the Tunisian people. The rage and indignation is the same throughout the country. The police and dictatorial regime of President Ben Ali attempted to crush the people’s uprising using misinformation, deception, lies and the brutal repression of the police who fired on the people, killing unarmed demonstrators. This was done with the intention of suppressing the protests quickly and preventing their spread to the rest of the country. These methods failed. Instead they have fueled protests that have extended their range, and drove the demonstrators to turn what began as simple social demands to political demands on the issue of freedom and power. Even when Ben Ali delivered his speech on the twelfth day of the revolt to promise that he would allow elections, nobody believed him and the masses responded that the protests would continue.The placards and slogans put forward by the masses in revolt, from south to north, are clear evidence of the long process of political awareness which has taken place in the minds of Tunisians over the last twenty years of the reign of Ben Ali.
Slogans such as: “Work is a right, band of thieves,” “Hands off the country corrupt band,” Work, freedom, dignity, ” Liberty, freedom and non-life presidency “,” Down with the party of thieves, down with the torturers of the people “,” Ben Ali loose, the people do not let it go “… Finally, the masses have realized that they are being ruled but not represented and that the system represents “a band of thieves”, a handful of families who have plundered the resources of the country, sold its resources and its people to foreign capital, which deprives people of their liberty and their rights, using the brute force of the state apparatus, which has been transformed into a “state of families,” to humiliate, subdue and intimidate the people and discourage them from fighting . Tunisia has been turned into a national prison in which torture and repression was used to terrorise the people. The people demand change in the belief that the aspirations to freedom, democracy and social justice can not be achieved under Ben Ali. The masses involved in the struggle, in the intifada, no longer want dictatorship, and have embarked on a new process in Tunisia.Tunisia needs a new democratic government which represents the national and popular will of the people and represents its own interests. And a system of this type cannot emerge from the current system and its institutions or its constitution and its laws, but only on its ruins by a constituent assembly elected by the people in conditions of freedom and transparency, after ending the tyranny.
The task of a People’s Council is to draft a new constitution that lays the foundations of democratic republic, with its institutions and its laws. The popular protests are still ongoing. No one can predict either their duration or their development. Tunisia has entered a new phase in its history characterized by the rise of its people and their desire to recover their freedom, rights and dignity.This raises the responsibilities of the opposition, especially its most radical wing, to find new policy solutions that place as an immediate priority the requirements of the Tunisian people for a program providing a plan for overall change in Tunisia.The opposition, consisting of all the forces involved in the intifada, has been invited to close ranks for Democratic Change and to form an alternative to tyranny and dictatorship.
The Workers’ Communist Party renews its invitation to convene a national assembly of the Tunisian opposition in order to confront the issue as quickly as possible.Also renewed has been an invitation to come together to coordinate at national and local level support for the popular movements, and to work towards a set of concrete demands so that the movement does not run out of steam. Among these demands the most immediate are: 1. An immediate end to the dictatorship’s campaign of repression against the people.
2. The release of all prisoners.
3. The arrest and prosecution of all those responsible for repression, the plunder of property, and murder.
4. The repeal of all restrictions on civil liberties, free expression, organization and assembly.The adoption of immediate economic measures to alleviate unemployment and poverty. We demand income security, health care and the immediate recognition of trade unions.
The Workers’ Communist Party will remain, as it has always been, on the side of the workers, the poor and all those at the forefront of a new order in Tunisia. For freedom, democracy and social justice.

End Statement.

Also:
http://mrzine.monthlyreview.org/2011/hammami190111.html


Tunisia: For a Constitutional Assembly to Lay the Foundations of a Democratic Republic
by Hamma Hammami 1. The success achieved so far is only half the way, and the other half is achieving the desired democratic change and implementing it on the ground.
2. Democratic change cannot spring from the same party, figures, institutions, apparatuses, and legislations that maintained the dictatorship and deprived the people of basic rights for more than half a century, 23 years of which under Ben Ali.
3. Interim President Fouad Mebazaa is one of Ben Ali's clique and the president of an appointed body which does not represent the people in any way whatsoever, and the plan to hold presidential elections in 45-60 days has no purpose but to ensure the continuity of the dictatorial regime through one of its former leaders.
4. The most dangerous thing that could happen now is robbing the Tunisian people of their victory, circumventing their legitimate aspirations for freedom and a dignified existence and disregarding their sacrifices, by preserving Ben Ali's regime without Ben Ali and creating a new democratic façade around it.
5. Democratic change, with all its political, economic, social, and cultural dimensions, demands putting a real end to the repressive regime by taking a direct step to form a provisional government or any other body with executive powers and to undertake the task of organizing free elections for a Constitutional Assembly which would establish the foundations of a real democratic republic in which the people would enjoy freedom, social equality, and national dignity.
6. All the forces that have played an effective and decisive role in toppling the dictator, whether they are political organizations, trade unions, human rights groups, or cultural organizations, organized or unorganized, as well as the people in general, have the task of deciding Tunisia's future, and no party or entity could supplant them in their negotiations or communications with the authority.
7. It is urgent that the democratic forces form a national and unified body to carry out democratic change, charged with the tasks of protecting the gains of the insurgent Tunisian people and of negotiating with the authority so the latter will peacefully yield power to the people.
8. All the democratic forces across the country must unite their ranks in organizations, committees, or local, regional, and sectorial councils in organizing the popular movement, in order to undermine the maneuvers of the forces of reaction and to stop the acts of looting and vandalism perpetrated by hidden groups seeking to spread fear among citizens, to threaten their safety, and to frighten them of democratic change so as to compel the people to surrender to the repressive apparatuses.
9. The armed forces, which consists in the main of the sons and daughters of the people, are asked to preserve security for the people and for the motherland and to respect the people's choices and aspirations for freedom, dignity, and social justice, which requires lifting the state of emergency as soon as possible so that it doesn't become an excuse that prevents the Tunisian people from continuing their struggle and achieving their goals.
For a provisional government
For a constitutional assembly
For a democratic republic
Hamma Hammami
Tunisian Communist Workers Party (http://www.albadil.org/)
Tunisia, 15 January 2011

[TheCultofAbeLincoln]

Chief of Tunisian Army Pledges His Support for ‘the Revolution’
By DAVID D. KIRKPATRICK (http://topics.nytimes.com/top/reference/timestopics/people/k/david_d_kirkpatrick/index.html?inline=nyt-per)



TUNIS — The general who may be both the most powerful and the most popular figure in Tunisia (http://topics.nytimes.com/top/news/international/countriesandterritories/tunisia/index.html?inline=nyt-geo) spoke publicly Monday for the first time since the ouster of the former dictator, Zine el-Abidine Ben Ali (http://topics.nytimes.com/top/reference/timestopics/people/b/zine_elabidine_ben_ali/index.html?inline=nyt-per), pledging to uphold “the revolution” and urging patience until the interim government can hold new elections.
“Our revolution is your revolution,” the military leader, Gen. Rachid Ammar, yelled through a megaphone to more than 1,000 demonstrators in a square near his office, according to several witnesses. “The army will protect the revolution.”

General Ammar was trying to placate protesters who are demanding the dissolution of the interim government because of the continued dominance of officials from Mr. Ben Ali’s old ruling party. His remarks are significant because he is playing an unseen but potentially decisive role in the Tunisian government. Many here hope Tunisia will be the first Arab democracy, rising from the first popular overthrow of an Arab strongman.

In the final days of Mr. Ben Ali’s rule, Tunisians watched in wonder as the military inexplicably withdrew from positions defending the capital. After Mr. Ben Ali fled the country a day later (http://www.nytimes.com/2011/01/15/world/africa/15tunis.html), Arab newspapers reported that it was General Ammar’s refusal to fire on civilians that led to Mr. Ben Ali’s final exit.
When chaos engulfed the country the next day it was General Ammar’s military that visibly stepped in to control both civilian looters and marauding members of Mr. Ben Ali’s former security forces. And in the week since then, the military has repeatedly interceded to protect civilian protesters from violence at the hands of the police.

Tunisian newspapers have lauded General Ammar as a national savior. Opposition political leaders have warily acknowledged that his military is the main force upholding the security of the country and its fragile interim government.

Some have speculated that he himself may run for office, noting that his bullhorn speech resembled the beginning of a political campaign. Others, however, argued that his speech — evidently intended to bolster the credibility of the civilian government — was the first sign that he was working for the civilian leaders and not pulling their strings.

A crowd of soldiers who heard the speech, requesting anonymity because they were not authorized to speak publicly, said the general had explicitly endorsed the need for free elections. Speaking fluent English, the soldiers said the general had told the crowd that both the people and the military would ensure a democratic outcome. They praised the protesters for ridding the country of the corruption that surrounded Mr. Ben Ali, and pledged their own support for a constitutional democracy.

Western diplomats and political scientists say the Tunisian military is unlike any other in North Africa and the Middle East — much smaller, more professional and historically apolitical. It has never fought wars and instead worked mostly on efforts like peacekeeping missions or disaster relief.



http://www.nytimes.com/2011/01/25/world/africa/25tunis.html?ref=world

[Bud Struggle]

Matty UK^^^^I'm sure there is a Communist Party in Tunisia. But my guess is that they claim a lot more for themselves than they actually accomplish. We have plenty of Communist Parties in the US, too.

[TheCultofAbeLincoln]

I forgot the name, but there is at least one prominent outlawed islamic party in Tunisia. As long as they don't try to grab power, which isn't at all likely, I see no problem with it really.

If things were to really boil over in Egypt I think there would be much more concern.

[Sentinel]

Nope. I think Islam will play a part in the government, at least in the Constitution.

This is all just speculation, but from how it looks islamists are not very popular in Tunisia. So I'd say it's possible that Islam will be present in the constitution, as in remaining the official state religion etc. Islamist parties may also be allowed -- but they'll hardly be in power. Instead from the looks of it, secular and democratic forces will be in majority, and if things go well socialists may be able to expand their influence significantly. We will see.


I don't think thay want it either. It's all about how far they are willing to go and how muchthey are willing to sacrifice to get what they want.Some of them have shown that they are willing to sacrifice quite a lot already. I think it's the last thing there is doubts about here, actually..

[Dimentio]

It is highly unlikely that islamists would gain increased popularity in Tunisia.

In general, Tunisians are well-educated, and there are larger (secular) opposition parties than Rachid's islamists.

All Arab countries are not the same.

[#FF0000]

I don't really get where the concern over islamism is coming from. I was under the impression that secularism is pretty popular with regular people in a bunch of Middle Eastern countries, especially in Tunisia.

[Bud Struggle]

I never meant that the Islamists would be in power, but I still think they will be a part of the government. Secular as they may be in Tunisia Islam is a pretty powerful force. A free country would give Islam more of a chance to grow. And it will.


I don't really get where the concern over islamism is coming from. I was under the impression that secularism is pretty popular with regular people in a bunch of Middle Eastern countries, especially in Tunisia. Freedom lets people travel in lots of different directions--not always to everyone's liking. For example CNN just announced that China is now the largest Christian country in the world.

[#FF0000]

I never meant that the Islamists would be in power, but I still think they will be a part of the government. Secular as they may be in Tunisia Islam is a pretty powerful force. A free country would give Islam more of a chance to grow. And it will.

Islam, or Islamism, Bud. :mellow:

[Dimentio]

I never meant that the Islamists would be in power, but I still think they will be a part of the government. Secular as they may be in Tunisia Islam is a pretty powerful force. A free country would give Islam more of a chance to grow. And it will.

Freedom lets people travel in lots of different directions--not always to everyone's liking. For example CNN just announced that China is now the largest Christian country in the world.

Yes probably. They are probably going to have some representation in the parliament. But I doubt they get over 20% of the votes.

[Pretty Flaco]

Freedom lets people travel in lots of different directions--not always to everyone's liking. For example CNN just announced that China is now the largest Christian country in the world.

whoa whoa, what? I was under the impression that Christianity was largely insignificant in China. The only major country in East Asia I can think of with a significant Christian population would be South Korea.

[Bud Struggle]

whoa whoa, what? I was under the impression that Christianity was largely insignificant in China. The only major country in East Asia I can think of with a significant Christian population would be South Korea.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6s_4rM7yorg&playnext=1&list=PLF953A2BDBC1AF838&index=5