Abolish Restaurants!

[#FF0000]

So I found this a long time ago on www.prole.info and just rediscovered it the other day.

http://www.prole.info/ar/ar_1.jpg (http://www.prole.info/ar/index.html)

While i was reading it again, I remembered how great the section on "The Production Process" is at introducing the Labor Theory of Value, but the whole thing is p. illuminating I think and very accessible.

So what do the resident counter-revolutionaries think? I'm particularly interested on what y'all think about the 'production process" section, like I said.

[Havet]

Abolish restaurants? Only if you buy me this

http://img408.imageshack.us/img408/5223/bimby.jpg

Then we'll talk






On a more serious note, abolishing restaurants is a very silly idea, since there will always be people willing to trade something for other people to have all the work on manufacturing food. If I can go eat in a restaurant than cook every single meal I have to eat, it saves me time.

That being said, there are many things resturants should improve upon. A curious experiment happened in my country, where a new restaurant decided to not have a fixed price on their food. Instead, they give a minimum and a maximum price, and customers, after the meal is over, can decide how much to pay (inside that range of prices). This is a very interesting method, since it brings more accountability to the table service and the cooking itself. In this example, the chefs are also students from a cooking school, which use the restaurant to put their theory into practice with real people in the real world.

Also, it wouldn't hurt to have some more cooperative restaurants out there, and market them as such.

[#FF0000]

You read the thing before you posted, Havet? :lol:

[trivas7]

While i was reading it again, I remembered how great the section on "The Production Process" is at introducing the Labor Theory of Value, but the whole thing is p. illuminating I think and very accessible.

So what do the resident counter-revolutionaries think? I'm particularly interested on what y'all think about the 'production process" section, like I said.
Could you please provide a link to the section you're referring to? I can't find it.

[ComradeMan]

FFS- the revolution will fail in Italy then.

[#FF0000]

Could you please provide a link to the section you're referring to? I can't find it.

http://www.prole.info/ar/ar_12.html

[PoliticalNightmare]

But where will the bourgeois be able to go to enjoy fine cuisine?

[Ravachol]

I found that pamphlet to be the single most accessible condensation of the labour theory of value and the ideas of circulation and accumulation of Capital. Seriously. Most of the stuff the prole.info crowd puts it is rad anyways.

[#FF0000]

But where will the bourgeois be able to go to enjoy fine cuisine?

hm

OFF THE FLOORS OF THE SALTMINES.

[Ocean Seal]

But where will the bourgeois be able to go to enjoy fine cuisine?
Ok fair enough, abolish fine restaurants, but does anyone know how to make their own pizza? Seriously can pizzeria's be exempt, because a revolution without pizza is like a revolution without Pokemon.

[ComradeMan]

Ok fair enough, abolish fine restaurants, but does anyone know how to make their own pizza? Seriously can pizzeria's be exempt, because a revolution without pizza is like a revolution without Pokemon.

Restaurants don't have to be bourgeois and "fine" and very often the best and most authentic ones aren't.

As for pizza--- I do. But you need a wood-fired pizza oven to make them the right way.

[RGacky3]

There is nothing wrong with fine food, everyone should have access to it.

[Political_Chucky]

Abolish restaurants? Only if you buy me this

http://img408.imageshack.us/img408/5223/bimby.jpg

Then we'll talk






On a more serious note, abolishing restaurants is a very silly idea, since there will always be people willing to trade something for other people to have all the work on manufacturing food. If I can go eat in a restaurant than cook every single meal I have to eat, it saves me time.

That being said, there are many things resturants should improve upon. A curious experiment happened in my country, where a new restaurant decided to not have a fixed price on their food. Instead, they give a minimum and a maximum price, and customers, after the meal is over, can decide how much to pay (inside that range of prices). This is a very interesting method, since it brings more accountability to the table service and the cooking itself. In this example, the chefs are also students from a cooking school, which use the restaurant to put their theory into practice with real people in the real world.

Also, it wouldn't hurt to have some more cooperative restaurants out there, and market them as such.

You have any info on that max-min food priced resturant? Or a name at least?

[ComradeMan]

I think Best Mod's idea of abolishing restaurants is going to turn the proletariat against his revolutionary movement.

I mean.... a revolution without pizza?

Fuck that.

[Havet]

You have any info on that max-min food priced resturant? Or a name at least?

Unfortunately not, but the idea is (http://www.nytimes.com/2010/05/21/us/21free.html) not (http://news.sky.com/skynews/Home/UK-News/Little-Bay-Restaurant-In-London-Lets-Customers-Pay-What-They-Like-For-Meals/Article/200902115216821) new (http://hello.news352.lu/edito-4063-new-restaurant-lets-customers-pay-what-they-want.html)

[Hoipolloi Cassidy]

WOID, the journal that I edit, has an article coming out about Nichi Vendola, the left candidate to unseat Berlusconi, and the local restaurants and cuisine of Puglia, the region of Southern Italy that's his home base - it's called "cucina povera," "poor people's cooking," BTW. Anyone interested in the relationship between restaurants and capitalism can request a copy, I'll be glad to send it:

[email protected]

(where's the emoticon of the guy licking his chops?)

[Bud Struggle]

You could almost taste the salt of the tears of the author as he cried feeling sorry for himself as he wrote this.

[StockholmSyndrome]

I liked it. I especially liked the part on tips. People are missing the point. Of course we will always go places to eat, and of course it will be fun.

[Ravachol]

I sure as hell hope people here aren't serious with their reaction about 'Abolishing Restaurants'. Under Communism of whatever sort 'Restaurants' would not longer exist, like 'companies' would no longer exist either. Places where food is prepared which you can eat is something different entirely, that's not a 'Restaurant', which is a specific type of place with a specific economic construction and the accompanying task distribution and social organization.

[Bud Struggle]

I liked it. I especially liked the part on tips. People are missing the point. Of course we will always go places to eat, and of course it will be fun.

A waiter is a partial entrepreneaur--his "skill" at managing his business makes him more or less money. And he has no financial outlay to become that entrepreneaur! It's a great deal.

I actually always wanted to moonlight as a waiter in a really great reateraunt.

[#FF0000]

You could almost taste the salt of the tears of the author as he cried feeling sorry for himself as he wrote this.

Oh come on. Nothing in it was interesting? :(

[Bud Struggle]

Oh come on. Nothing in it was interesting? :(

Oh yea, but it was "feeling sorry for himself" article. I make the point in the second post. Working as a waiters is entreprneural. It's not for the faint of heart or those of the Socialist best.
oamine, though.

Work IS hard--all real work. Sometimes we are gifted or talented or lucky and we get to do thing we love. For the vast expanse of society we have to do what makes us a living. That's life--not Communist or Capitalist.

One of the most funny/annoying things about Communists on this site is that for all their talk of "labor" very few of you really either do it or even know what it is. It's hard and not much fun and there isn't all that much reward. To think there will be a change in that is just showing a Bourgeoisie bent for self delusion.

Someone has to take out the trash.

[#FF0000]

k well what about the section on productive forces?

[Bud Struggle]

k well what about the section on productive forces?

It was kind of accurate. But a resteraunt's a BUSINESS not a free soup kitchen. People have difficult jobs to do to make a particular product. All the author does is whine. No sense of accomplishment. No attempt at doing a fine job, no pride in a knowing his business and doing it well. He actually would do well in any 1970 resteraunt in Moscow (or 2011 Paris) but he'd probably starve in a contemporary America resteraunt.

It's all about--what can I get, isn't it?

[Ocean Seal]

Restaurants don't have to be bourgeois and "fine" and very often the best and most authentic ones aren't.

As for pizza--- I do. But you need a wood-fired pizza oven to make them the right way.
All this talk about revolution is making me hungry.

http://www.google.com/images?um=1&hl=en&client=firefox-a&rls=org.mozilla%3Aen-US%3Aofficial&biw=1024&bih=587&tbs=isch%3A1&sa=1&q=pizza&aq=f&aqi=g10&aql=&oq=

Mmmm overthrowing the bourgeoisie.

[#FF0000]

No sense of accomplishment. No attempt at doing a fine job, no pride in a knowing his business and doing it well

The writer mentioned the pride in knowing the business and being good at it. :mellow: To be honest I don't understand this "whining" thing you're talking about. Fast food and food service in general is an awful job. I don't think someone who explains why it's awful is whining.

[Palingenisis]

The writer mentioned the pride in knowing the business and being good at it. :mellow: To be honest I don't understand this "whining" thing you're talking about. Fast food and food service in general is an awful job. I don't think someone who explains why it's awful is whining.

This is one of the contradictions of capitalism....I want to work. I believe that work is a social duty....But I have no respect for my boss and I realize he is exploiting me. Those two beliefs tend to grate on each other.

[Ravachol]

People need to understand the difference between free labour and work, a very specific form of labour resulting from coercion through wage-slavery and shaped by conditions imposed by the capitalist mode of production and it's benficiaries: the bourgeoisie.

[#FF0000]

I love making food and making food for people. I hate working in restaurants. v:mellow:v

[Lt. Ferret]

maybe you're exploiting your boss.

[#FF0000]

maybe you're exploiting your boss.

how so

[gorillafuck]

I sure as hell hope people here aren't serious with their reaction about 'Abolishing Restaurants'. Under Communism of whatever sort 'Restaurants' would not longer exist, like 'companies' would no longer exist either. Places where food is prepared which you can eat is something different entirely, that's not a 'Restaurant', which is a specific type of place with a specific economic construction and the accompanying task distribution and social organization.
If there are still waiters and waitresses at those places then fuck that.

[Kotze]

I'd imagine it'd be good to abolish waiter/waitress work since those are insanely shit jobs, but what exactly would restaurants be replaced by? Going somewhere to eat is fun.Work that is arduous and requires specific skills needs to be paid well. Work that is arduous and doesn't require specific skills can be dealt with by paying well or job rotation. According to the pamphlet, the work in question does not require specific skill and is arduous, ergo this can be dealt with by paying well or job rotation.

Reducing stress by having strict limits about how long your shift is, having higher standars regarding ergonomics, and paying better will make restaurants more expensive. So people won't go that often to restaurants and there will be fewer of them.

Work in staff canteens can be made a rotating duty, and serving your colleagues is very different from working in a restaurant. Demand is more predictable and since such an arrangement offers economies of scale compared with the puny cooking corners in single households, I'd say let a thousand canteens bloom.


But you need a wood-fired pizza oven to make them the right way.:lol: Ah, okay (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/howaboutthat/7735026/Pizza-in-Naples-cooked-with-wood-from-coffins.html).

[Bud Struggle]

The writer mentioned the pride in knowing the business and being good at it. :mellow: To be honest I don't understand this "whining" thing you're talking about. Fast food and food service in general is an awful job. I don't think someone who explains why it's awful is whining.

Yea, but if you don't like it--do something else. Fast food resteraunt work if done mostly by HS and college kids that need some extra money. It's shit shoveling fo people with no marketable skills--yet. It's a good learning lesson. No reason to abolish the entire business because YOU don't like what you are doing.

The whole art of life if getting an apporpriate skill to what you really want to acomplish in life. Fast food service is a way station not an end. No need to abolish the eintire business--all you need to do is grow out of it and move on.

[#FF0000]

Yea, but if you don't like it--do something else. Fast food resteraunt work if done mostly by HS and college kids that need some extra money.

No, not at all. With all the layoffs and people running towards the end of their unemployment benefits, people well past their teens are taking fast food jobs all over the place. I remember I was the youngest person working at Wendy's at 19 years old.

And I hated it but I needed the job and there was no other work available. And at this point, it's a choice between minimum wage retail or minimum wage fast food. The point is that I don't want to be forced to work in exchange for an amount that is far less than the value I've created with my work.


It's shit shoveling fo people with no marketable skills--yet. It's a good learning lesson. No reason to abolish the entire business because YOU don't like what you are doing.


"Abolish Restaurants" doesn't really mean "Abolish Places Where People Eat Besides at Home!", silly.


The whole art of life if getting an apporpriate skill to what you really want to acomplish in life. Fast food service is a way station not an end. No need to abolish the eintire business--all you need to do is grow out of it and move on.

Yes but no matter what I'm doing, I'm going to be getting paid for far less than the value that I'm creating. :mellow: That's the point!

[Lt. Ferret]

when you start paying for the restaurant walls, and merchandise yourself, then we can start talking about who is financially stiff dicking who.

[freakazoid]

I'm going to be getting paid for far less than the value that I'm creating.

Will you?

[#FF0000]

when you start paying for the restaurant walls, and merchandise yourself, then we can start talking about who is financially stiff dicking who.

Except that the only reason any business ever turns a profit at all is because workers are forced to sell their labor and then they are given back far, far less than what they have put in.

[#FF0000]

Will you?

Yes.

[gorillafuck]

when you start paying for the restaurant walls, and merchandise yourself, then we can start talking about who is financially stiff dicking who.
http://paulitics.files.wordpress.com/2007/10/capitalism.PNG?w=464&h=629

[Lt. Ferret]

and that evil profit is used to enlarge the business, or hire more workers, or pay more money to workers to entice them to work at the business isntead of competing businesses.


craAaAaAzY.


even if that boss spends all that money like a douchebag, he's still giving it to other businesses, and theyre paying employees.

[#FF0000]

but what about if, I don't know, the means of production were commonly owned and the workers had access to and control over what they produced instead of getting a tiny percentage. :mellow:

[gorillafuck]

and that evil profit is used to enlarge the business, or hire more workers, or pay more money to workers to entice them to work at the business isntead of competing businesses.
It's not like workers in wherever are leaving their sweatshop jobs to go to the better paying sweatshop. Or maybe truck drivers in Columbia are leaving Coca cola to go work at Pepsi since Pepsi treats the workers really really well. Seriously, do you think that's how world capitalism actually works?

[Lt. Ferret]

are we talking retail work or industrial sweatshops in third world countries? i dont mean to sound like a thirld worldist but theres a heap of difference.

and yeah, people actually crowd around those factories trying to get work, becausei ts much better than what they were doing before the factories showed up.

im not giving factory owners an excuse for sweatshop labor or shitty working conditions, i think personally that if a business is based in america its labor laws should be applied to its foreign holdings.

but between generational farm holdings and factory work, people prefer the factories. they've done this since factories were created.

[#FF0000]

are we talking retail work or industrial sweatshops in third world countries? i dont mean to sound like a thirld worldist but theres a heap of difference.

and yeah, people actually crowd around those factories trying to get work, becausei ts much better than what they were doing before the factories showed up.

im not giving factory owners an excuse for sweatshop labor or shitty working conditions, i think personally that if a business is based in america its labor laws should be applied to its foreign holdings.

but between generational farm holdings and factory work, people prefer the factories. they've done this since factories were created.

Yeah we know. We know factory work is preferable to being a subsistence farmer. That doesn't mean that factory work isn't exploitative.

[gorillafuck]

are we talking retail work or industrial sweatshops in third world countries? i dont mean to sound like a thirld worldist but theres a heap of difference.
Well, in either one the same thing is occurring, albeit to a much different degree. People making money based on mere ownership while other people work for the owners, and the only choice is to work in one exploited job or another.


and yeah, people actually crowd around those factories trying to get work, becausei ts much better than what they were doing before the factories showed up.

im not giving factory owners an excuse for sweatshop labor or shitty working conditions, i think personally that if a business is based in america its labor laws should be applied to its foreign holdings.

but between generational farm holdings and factory work, people prefer the factories. they've done this since factories were created.
And unemployment, farm holdings, or factory work where people basically work for scraps being the choice that capitalism provides isn't a very good endorsement.

In fact, that's basically a good example of an argument against the way that capitalism works.

[Lt. Ferret]

you can always start up your own job or form a co-op. problem solved. case closed, ill be out to lunch.

[gorillafuck]

you can always start up your own job or form a co-op. problem solved. case closed, ill be out to lunch.
Not everyone has the resources to do that in a way where they have any sort of chance to be successful. Most people don't.

Especially people who would otherwise be working in factories in the third world.

[#FF0000]

you can always start up your own job or form a co-op. problem solved. case closed, ill be out to lunch.

Ah yes because everybody on the planet has easy access to capital and it's not like some of us live in America where the vast majority of new companies fail in the first year.

But hey! Maybe if everyone started a business, things would be better! That way everyone would be an owner and have underlings to extract profit from and- oh wait.

[Lt. Ferret]

they fail in the first year because most people aren't cut out to create systems of efficient production.

hence....successful business owners!

[#FF0000]

Yeah so then the only other option is to sell one's labor for less than it's worth. That is the problem. That people have to do this and the social and political inequality that comes with that kind of economic relationship between owner and worker.

[gorillafuck]

It's not just know how that in it. Resources, etc. go into the equation more than you're giving credit to.

[Lt. Ferret]

work a job that gives you more of your labor value back. thats why there is competition. yeah, in all jobs where youre not the boss you lose a little bit, that goes into the system that was created that allows you to build wealth.

cut costs, save money. live with roomates. eat ramen. stop drinking beer. stop smoking weed. buy used clothes.

theres no conceivable way in the united states to not be able to save money unless you are such a fuckup that quite honestly no, im not changing the system for you.

[#FF0000]

Except having nice things is such a tiny part of the problem. The problem is that the more capital someone controls, the more power they have, and so we end up with a handful of people with insane amounts of power and clout because of the surplus value they take from the workers. "GET EXPLOITED LESS" isn't a solution for that.

EDIT: Also you don't need to tell me how to be the cheapest person ever. I am thrifty as a motherfucker.

[Lt. Ferret]

whats this handful? theres businesses all over the fucking place.

[#FF0000]

And there are very few supersupersuperultra rich ones. :mellow:

[Lt. Ferret]

what do i know i joined the army.

[Across The Street]

There's no way in hell I'm gonna eat pizza that's made from the wood of coffins.

At least the army gives you some options.

[Die Neue Zeit]

I sure as hell hope people here aren't serious with their reaction about 'Abolishing Restaurants'. Under Communism of whatever sort 'Restaurants' would not longer exist, like 'companies' would no longer exist either. Places where food is prepared which you can eat is something different entirely, that's not a 'Restaurant', which is a specific type of place with a specific economic construction and the accompanying task distribution and social organization.

I believe it is called a "canteen" or "cafeteria." The point behind public eating places historically is to reduce the domestic labour that women have to do within the Economic Family, "nuclear" or otherwise.

[Amphictyonis]

Will there be shoe shiners in an advanced communist society? Perhaps people to wipe our asses for us? :)

[Lt. Ferret]

i eat in chow halls everyday. trust me, i prefer restaurants.

[Amphictyonis]

i eat in chow halls everyday. trust me, i prefer restaurants.
Why? So you can be served? I'd prefer a chow hall with a rude person or happy person or whoever the person wants to be filling buffet trays. No ass kissing involved.

"Hello sir welcome to McDonalds" will never be murmured in a communist society. The food service industry sucks (under capitalism). I'm having flashbacks.

[Blackscare]

Why? So you can be served? I'd prefer a chow hall with a rude person or happy person or whoever the person wants to be filling buffet trays. No ass kissing involved.

Probably because buffet food is usually pretty nasty. Or maybe socialist buffet halls would be better, I notice that buffet food today is usually really shitty and cheaply made (I guess to be profitably made in huge quantities). Shit sux.

[Lt. Ferret]

yeah, cheap, low quality food en masse. impersonal, a real cog in the machine experience.

[#FF0000]

I am sure there will be restaurants after the revolution. They will just be less shitty to work in.

Like I could see a place like the Red and Black Cafe sticking around.

[Amphictyonis]

. Or maybe socialist buffet halls would be better

People who love to cook and have a passion for it would be cooking food at buffets. No need for a class distinction between fine dining and dining. Good food would be made by good cooks. There's certian things people can do for themselves and holding a plate and filling it with food then clearing the table afterward is one of them. Production and distrobution of actual resources is whats key to a society of abundance not some class based wipe my ass for me mentality :) At least in my opinion.

[Amphictyonis]

yeah, cheap, low quality food en masse. impersonal, a real cog in the machine experience.

Indeed. Victory gin and blue coveralls for all. Chocolate rations of a gram a month! Bellyfeel that shit.

[Amphictyonis]

ehzC937Q9Dc

I suppose I take it a step further than Orwell. "Servile speech" isn't enough to abolish we need to rid the world of servile action or we'd be maintaining an institutionally based class system. I suppose service jobs would have to exist in some instances but most workers efforts, globally, would be on mass production/agriculture/industry/construction.

Jobs that don't actually produce anything would be minimized. People washing your car? No. People cleaning your home? No. People delivering you food? No. People walking and cleaning your dog? No. People nannying your kids? No. People manicuring your garden? No. If you want a garden plant and maintain it yourself with all the extra free time you'd have. How meaningful life would be if we actually had to wipe our own asses.

If I asked you to wipe my ass and I was perfectly healthy and able to do it myself what would you tell me?

[renzo_novatore]

I was just wondering about precisely this. I mean - why do we need restaurants in the first place? If everyone has economic security - I don't see why they'd work in the food industry. Because - if you think about it - restaurants haven't always been around. Before they existed, friends would cook for friends, you know? And then without intellectual property, why the recipes would move around a lot more - and before you know it, I could be enjoying a mcdonalds hamburger for free and no one's labor would get exploited in the process! And I wouldn't find some teenager's spit on my food!

[Lt. Ferret]

id tell you to give me some money for the service.

[Across The Street]

I've worked in restaurants of varying quality most of my working life, with the exception of a stint in a mechanics' shop, a summer job as a painter, and various odd jobs. I don't see restaurants disappearing anytime soon. The main thing that will change is that everyone currently working in them who doesn't enjoy the job will be gone, their positions then being filled by people who actually give a damn and enjoy serving good food for people. Cafes may even start to crop up in unusual places, because tell me who doesn't enjoy sharing a meal with friends and/or family? I just wish the places were run a little differently, and I don't hesitate to give my input, even when not asked.