How many people has christianity killed in total?

[Dimitri Molotov]

since Roman times, persecuting the pagans, the crusades, witch/heretic burnings, christian terrorists (such as the kkk who have killed ~2000), and everything christianity is responsible for such as things like the childrens crusade where if i remember correctly tens of thousands of children died in a storm at sea because of christianity. im not using this for any particular argument, i was just curious. if anyone can give actual numbers that would be very very helpful, Thanks in advance!;)

Okay sorry guys if there was any misunderstanding or whatever with this question, the reason i wanted to know how many people "christianity" has killed was so next time i get the "communism" has killed 10M+ people argument then i can turn around and tell them that Christianity has killed more, (i am hoping the number is greater so i can stop them from using this argument in their tracks because of how much of a BS argument it is and 99% of the people who use it on me are whacko hardcore christian conservative republican teabaggers who wont win an argument like that.)

[Proukunin]

probably millions.

[NGNM85]

It's impossible to calculate. Millions, if not billions.

[Ocean Seal]

Zero

[dernier combat]

Statistics like this may be shocking, but they do not present a sound argument against religion (and yes, I am aware that the Bible does teach Christians to do some pretty nasty things). Deaths like these can be attributed to a wide range of economic and political factors - as well as different interpretations of the scripture (e.g. your average churchgoer probably doesn't think that the practises of the KKK are Christian in any way). Don't get me wrong, I'm not some sort of preacher - I'm an atheist. I'm just here posting my two cents.

[Blackscare]

It's impossible to calculate. Millions, if not billions.

I think billions is stretching it.

[Tomhet]

101010100 10000010010001100 10000000

[Kuppo Shakur]

Christianity has aborted billions of fetuses.

[Dimitri Molotov]

Christianity has aborted billions of fetuses.

arent most christian denominations against abortion?

[9]

I think the question is flawed.

[Iraultzaile Ezkerreko]

http://www.yourfunnystuff.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/06/who-killed-more-people.jpg

[NGNM85]

I think billions is stretching it.

Yeah, you're probably right, but it's still a pretty staggering amount. We're also talking about a period of over 1,000 years. Off the top you've got the Crusades, which is actually a series of interrelated bloodbaths, (Rough Est. 1-9 Mil.) the Spanish Inquisition, (Rough Est. 150,000), the various witch hysterias, (Rough Est. 50,000+) the Holocaust (6 million Jews, 10,000+ Est. homosexuals, etc.), the genocide of Native Americans and slavery were both fundamentally intertwined with religion, and a few other assorted pogroms and what-have-you. There's also the probably much larger, and incalcuable number of those who have been killed by proxy. People like Alan Turing, the brilliant British scientist who had the misfortune to have been born in the wrong time period, after being arrested for homosexuality (Under laws that were inspired by religious prohibitions.) and forced to take a bogus medical regimen designed to 'cure' his homosexuality which caused a number of unpleasant side-effects, killed himself. There's at least a hundred thousand more where that came from. There's the women killed in back-alley abortions because puritanical religious codes which only tolerated procreation except under the strictest circumstances, as well as prohibiting any exercise of women's reproductive rights. Right now there are Catholic missionaries going into the most AIDS-ravaged parts of Africa and pressuring people who have never had the benefit of a basic eduation of even the most basic fundamentals of medical science, that they must not use prophylactics. Etc., etc., etc. You're right, it's probably not several billion,(We will never know for sure.) but it, probably, isn't that far off.

[Magón]

I don't see how you can blame any of those on Christianity rather than groups and individuals professing to be a Christian according to them unless you're going to accuse communism of being responsible for every purge, famine, and gulag ever committed by anyone who ever professed to be a communist. And some of those are just ridiculous. What does the slave trade or the colonization of Native America have to do with it? There were fundamental economic and political factors for that to occur with religion playing a minor role.

To be fair, Christianity has been around a LOT longer than Communism has, and there have been many sects of Christianity that have taken out their anger by the sword or gun. You can't compare the deaths that still continue, with an ideology that's never actually truly seen the light of day.

[Hexen]

http://www.yourfunnystuff.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/06/who-killed-more-people.jpg

I always find it strange that Satan/Lucifer and Demons is always portrayed as "evil" but yet God is a mass killer.

[Iraultzaile Ezkerreko]

I always find it strange that Satan/Lucifer and Demons is always portrayed as "evil" but yet God is a mass killer.

I just love pulling that graph out. God killed a third the amount of people that Hitler did in a time when there were probably ~20 times as many people alive when Hitler perpetrated the Holocaust. Think about how ridiculous that is. Adjusted for population growth that'd be like God killing 40,766,880 in the Bible.

[9]

http://www.yourfunnystuff.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/06/who-killed-more-people.jpg
This is pretty silly considering the conception of the satan as 'the devil' is a Christian concept (idk about Islam), and where the satan is mentioned in the Hebrew bible (which is the Christian old testament), it doesn't have the same connotation. Whereas obviously God is present in the Hebrew bible from the start.

Its all nonsense, of course. But really you might want to avoid making yourself look ridiculous if you get into a discussion with religious people.

[The Fighting_Crusnik]

Based on the inquisition, I'm thinking it's at least a half-a-billion if not around a full billion.

[Iraultzaile Ezkerreko]

This is pretty silly considering the conception of the satan as 'the devil' is a Christian concept (idk about Islam), and where the satan is mentioned in the Hebrew bible, it doesn't have any similar connotation. Whereas obviously God is present in the Hebrew bible from the start.

Its all nonsense, of course. But really you might want to avoid making yourself look ridiculous if you get into a discussion with religious people.

I could care less. The only important part of that graph is the "God" part.

[NGNM85]

I don't see how you can blame any of those on Christianity rather than groups and individuals professing to be a Christian…

Easily; because people's beliefs, to the extent that they believe them, inform their actions. Imagine, if I were to throw on a lab coat and walk into an Oncology department and tell a patient they've gone into a miraculous remission, or if I were to put on an authentic police uniform, ring some unsuspecting housewife's doorbell and inform her that her child has just been killed by a drunk driver. If they accepted these propositions, we would see a dramatic effect on their emotions, and on their behavior. Religious beliefs, for a number of reasons, tend to be especially powerful. As for Christianity’s position on slavery, homosexuality, religious tolerance, etc., I assume that’s a given.



according to them unless you're going to accuse communism of being responsible for every purge, famine, and gulag ever committed by anyone who ever professed to be a communist.

You might want to ask a communist about that. However, as far as I know, there isn’t one central text of communism, although Marx’s Manifesto is pretty close. I had a mixed opinion, parts of it illuminated some very essential, basic truisms, other parts were fairly bogus, but I didn’t see anything remotely similar to the kind of exhortations for various forms of brutality that one finds in the Bible.


And some of those are just ridiculous. What does the slave trade or the colonization of Native America have to do with it? There were fundamental economic and political factors for that to occur with religion playing a minor role.

They were justified on the basis of scripture, on the basis of religious ideas about slavery and about non-Christians.

[Blackscare]

Wait a second, I was following you ngm for a minute, but the holocaust? The Nazis really did just co-opt the catholics, it's pretty damn clear that they weren't particularly religiously motivated.

[t32k]

100000 millions :D

[Black Sheep]

Christianity? Zero! How can ideas kill people?

Christians on the other hand...

[Tavarisch_Mike]

I agree with that just because some nuts have done pretty nasty things in the name of chritianity we cant charge the whole religion and its (around) 2,1 billion followers for all crazy things frome David Koresh to the crussades. And how are we going to count? I mean since the first country became christian pretty much evry war and crime that was punished with execution was in the name of good, counting like that would leed to some incredible numbers.

[Das war einmal]

Christians have killed a lot of people, how many we cant tell because for a very very long time christian monks were the only ones able to write so you can bet your ass that they left a lot of atrocities out. We all know Charlemange has converted the north-western parts of Europe, but the story doesn't tell on how he did that.

[Magón]

''Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.' They also will answer, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?' He will reply, 'I tell you the truth, whatever you did not do for one of the least among you, you did not do for me.'-Matthew 25:41-45

Uh? What does this have to do with how many people Christianity has killed? You quote one measly little part of the bible, when there's whole sections of the book of fables that talk about death and killing, all in the name of God or just straight up, death to all non-believers.

[bricolage]

So the Holocaust was motivated by Christianity now?

[NGNM85]

Wait a second, I was following you ngm for a minute, but the holocaust? The Nazis really did just co-opt the catholics, it's pretty damn clear that they weren't particularly religiously motivated.

This is incorrect. The Third Reich didn't materialize out of the ether, this intense anti-semitism goes back to medival Christianity, and has it's roots in the Bible.

[L.A.P.]

I think asking how many people Christianity has killed is as good as asking how many people communism has killed. No doubt the churches have been responsible for many deaths and the Bible does promote some pretty fucked up "moral values" but I would never say that the ideas of Jesus himself have killed anyone or influenced people to kill others. Because if it wasn't Jesus then it would have been someone else who's ideas would have been corrupted for political and economic gain.

[Luisrah]

I think it is really stupid for us to be saying christianity killed x people. While it's ideas have influenced certain people into killing others, saying that chirstianity killed 10 million people, will be no worse than everyone that says communism killed 100 million.

Instead of saying that the crusades made 9 million deaths, inquisition bla bla, point out the problems today. The deaths in the crusades won't make people start hating religion like that. It was a long time ago, minds have changed. Heck, since the French liberal revolution, the ''common sense'' mind has changed enough to the point of today, if Sarkozy was taken out of power, the people wouldn't view well if he was executed, but everyone thought Louis XVI should be executed when we revolution triumphed.

Point out the problems, get to the reasons, explain why religion is this or that, don't use the same game as anti-communists.

[NGNM85]

So the Holocaust was motivated by Christianity now?

To a significant extent, yes. However, this is hardly a new development.

[Thirsty Crow]

To a significant extent, yes. However, this is hardly a new development.
Evidence?

[NGNM85]

Evidence?

During the Crusades Jews were the target of various massacres and forced relocations, others were made to forcibly renounce their religion under penalty of death. Over the following centuries Jews were forcibly expelled from France, England, and Austria. In the 1600s thousands were slaughtered in Ukraine, etc., etc. The impetus for these atrocities was largely religious, having it's roots in the Bible, and espoused by the Catholic church, which perpetrated the 'blood libel' myth as late as 1914, and opened it's genealogical records so Jews to the Nazis so that individuals with Jewish ancestry could be found and sent to concentration camps.

[NGNM85]

I think it is really stupid for us to be saying christianity killed x people. While it's ideas have influenced certain people into killing others, saying that chirstianity killed 10 million people, will be no worse than everyone that says communism killed 100 million.


Although a number of communists are sufficiently dogmatic to warrant an equivalency with religion, this comparison is problematic. There is no one central text of communism, let alone one that includes the kind of exhortations to violence found in the Bible.

[Thirsty Crow]

During the Crusades Jews were the target of various massacres and forced relocations, others were made to forcibly renounce their religion under penalty of death. Over the following centuries Jews were forcibly expelled from France, England, and Austria. In the 1600s thousands were slaughtered in Ukraine, etc., etc. The impetus for these atrocities was largely religious, having it's roots in the Bible, and espoused by the Catholic church, which perpetrated the 'blood libel' myth as late as 1914, and opened it's genealogical records so Jews to the Nazis so that individuals with Jewish ancestry could be found and sent to concentration camps.

I fail to see how this constitutes the thesis that the Holocaust was motivated by active religious belief - a Christian one. The only thing I can see is the assertion that the Church opend its archive to the Nazis.
Let's try again: show us how exactly was Nazi ideology a Christian one?

[NGNM85]

I fail to see how this constitutes the thesis that the Holocaust was motivated by active religious belief - a Christian one. The only thing I can see is the assertion that the Church opend its archive to the Nazis.
Let's try again: show us how exactly was Nazi ideology a Christian one?

That's not what I said. What I as saying was that the rabid anti-semitism in Europe which culminated in the Third Reich was nurtured by the Catholic church and originates in a fairly literal interpretation of Biblical text.

[ComradeOm]

During the Crusades Jews were the target of various massacres and forced relocations, others were made to forcibly renounce their religion under penalty of death. Over the following centuries Jews were forcibly expelled from France, England, and Austria. In the 1600s thousands were slaughtered in Ukraine, etc., etc. The impetus for these atrocities was largely religious, having it's roots in the Bible, and espoused by the Catholic church, which perpetrated the 'blood libel' myth as late as 1914, and opened it's genealogical records so Jews to the Nazis so that individuals with Jewish ancestry could be found and sent to concentration camps.I love how your background to the Holocaust starts with the Crusades. Not so fond of the blanket assertion that every anti-Semitic act can be traced back to the Bible. Disappointed, if unsurprised, that you completely ignore the development of racial theories in Germany prior to, during and after WWI. But then this latter strain of thought, the true soil from which Nazism sprung, was not influenced by the Bible

You want to connect the dots here, instead of making vague and ridiculously broad assertions? Hint: it might be more productive to start with the Nazis, and their ideological base, as opposed to the Crusaders

[Misanthrope]

Christianity? Zero! How can ideas kill people?

Christians on the other hand...

Oh but those people weren't really Christian, they were just claiming to be Christian! :rolleyes::rolleyes:
:rolleyes:

[NGNM85]

I love how your background to the Holocaust starts with the Crusades. Not so fond of the blanket assertion that every anti-Semitic act can be traced back to the Bible.

Not all of it, just most of it.


Disappointed, if unsurprised, that you completely ignore the development of racial theories in Germany prior to, during and after WWI.

I didn’t say it was irrelevant. That matters, certainly.


But then this latter strain of thought, the true soil from which Nazism sprung, was not influenced by the Bible


You want to connect the dots here, instead of making vague and ridiculously broad assertions? Hint: it might be more productive to start with the Nazis, and their ideological base, as opposed to the Crusaders

It’s not 'vague' or 'ridiculously broad.' The Catholic church had demonized Jews, resulting in a number of pogroms, massacres, and what-have-you for the better part of 2,000 years. Anti-Semitism, in Europe, was already a thriving industry long before these racialist doctrines became popular.

[Sixiang]

Oh but those people weren't really Christian, they were just claiming to be Christian! :rolleyes::rolleyes:
:rolleyes:

And what makes someone a Christian?

[Magón]

And what makes someone a Christian?

I believe he was pointing out the irony that fundamental christians, and christians alike, say when one of their own burns something, kills someone, etc.

[NGNM85]

I believe he was pointing out the irony that fundamental christians, and christians alike, say when one of their own burns something, kills someone, etc.

It is interesting that they only want credit for the good stuff. When you cite the golden rule, or something, everybody's happy, but when you cite one of the numerous passages containing exhortations of violence or justification for some kind of atrocity suddenly you have to be a theology scholar. Suddenly, it's too complex for us mere mortals to understand.

[Magón]

It is interesting that they only want credit for the good stuff. When you cite the golden rule, or something, everybody's happy, but when you cite one of the numerous passages containing exhortations of violence or justification for some kind of atrocity suddenly you have to be a theology scholar. Suddenly, it's too complex for us mere mortals to understand.

Yeah, it's pretty amazing the downplay they give these cases. One personal example is, I was in Utah one year for some desert sports, and some mormon church got burned to the ground by some "mystery" assailant. The cops searched and searched for the person, later they found out it was a fellow church goer. :lol:

The church later said when they found out, that he was "excommunicated" some months ago, and was his reasoning for burning the church in a revenge stunt. I heard, and it was later admitted by some lowdown church boss, that he wasn't ever excommunicated, and in fact was one of the church's most pleasant attendees. :laugh:

[Dimitri Molotov]

yeah i dont really understand the holocaust either, also everyone please read the few new sentences i put into my first post, it might help clear up the point behind the question. thank you everyone for helping so far, even if we cant get a number or if the question is flawed, im glad i could start a good inteligent conversation about it:)

[Cencus]

How much of the crusades and the inquisition and all the other shitty things in christianity's past are actually a product of the politics of the various European aristocracy/monarchies?

Without a defintive answer to that question we can't really pin a figure on it.:(

[ZeroNowhere]

Forty-two.

[valdek]

You can't exactly blame 'Christianity' at all-
that's just like saying 'Islam' is the fault of so many bombings 'in the name of allah' in the middle east- well NO, it's 'Islamic EXTREMISTS' who have done it and not 'Islam'.
With the above of course going for 'christian fundamentalists' or whatever you wish to call them.

[ComradeOm]

Not all of it, just most of itReally? Care to substantiate this claim and explain why you are ignoring other causes such as racial and political theories or plain old xenophobia?


It’s not 'vague' or 'ridiculously broad.' The Catholic church had demonized Jews, resulting in a number of pogroms, massacres, and what-have-you for the better part of 2,000 years. Anti-Semitism, in Europe, was already a thriving industry long before these racialist doctrines became popularAnd here you've pretty much summed up why I use the terms "vague" and "ridiculously broad". Instead of examining the actual causes of the Holocaust, and the roots of Nazi ideology, you've instead chosen to (incorrectly) sum up the entire history of anti-Semitism in two lines. At no point - beyond equally vague talk of the Church - do you actually make the connection (and I'm talking specifics here) between the Holocaust and Christianity

[NGNM85]

Really? Care to substantiate this claim and explain why you are ignoring other causes such as racial and political theories or plain old xenophobia?

And here you've pretty much summed up why I use the terms "vague" and "ridiculously broad". Instead of examining the actual causes of the Holocaust, and the roots of Nazi ideology, you've instead chosen to (incorrectly) sum up the entire history of anti-Semitism in two lines.

Even if we forget the historical evidence, simple xenophobia is woefully insufficient. I also didn't say all anti-semitism emanated from the Bible, just most of it. Germany, like most of the rest of Europe was already brimming over with anti-semitism, well before these modern racialist theories became prominent.


At no point - beyond equally vague talk of the Church - do you actually make the connection (and I'm talking specifics here) between the Holocaust and Christianity

I don't know what it is you are looking for. If anything in the scipture is absolutely clear it is the position on heretics, idolaters, 'heathens', in short, non-believers. Do you want examples of anti-semitism being promoted by the Catholic church? I already mentioned that the Vatican perpetuated the blood libel up until 1914. You can find numerous examples of fulminating against the Jews. The contribution of the Nazi party, or rather, of their forebears, because Hitler didn't really have much in the way of original ideas, was providing a secular justification for anti-semitism. However, this was merely a new way of justifying what they already believed, a virulent anti-semitism inherited from a religious hatred nurtured for the better part of 2,000 years.

[ComradeOm]

Germany, like most of the rest of Europe was already brimming over with anti-semitism, well before these modern racialist theories became prominentWhich is the problem really with drawing a straight line from Emicho to Hitler - you lose sight of everything in between. Are you even aware of the different ideologies/prejudices/rationales that fall within the term 'anti-Semitism'? Are you aware of the history of discrimination against the Jews in Europe? How do you explain that prior to the rise of Hitler discriminatory barriers against the Jews had been systematically coming down for over a century?


I don't know what it is you are looking for. If anything in the scipture is absolutely clear it is the position on heretics, idolaters, 'heathens', in short, non-believersThere's also a commandment not to kill. I wonder how that one has worked out over the years...?

Ironically here you fall into the same trap as the Fundamentalists. Repeat after me: The Bible is not historical evidence


Do you want examples of anti-semitism being promoted by the Catholic church?No, I want examples of an active Catholic Church role in formulating and perpetrating the Holocaust. And no, I don't just mean standing on the sidelines and looking the other way. While you're at it, I'd also like to see you explain why the two single most barbaric examples of anti-Semitism in the early 20th C occurred in Russian and Germany - an Orthodox and predominately Protestant nation respectively. Oh, and feel free to explain the rationale behind putting every Christian movement in the past two thousand years under the one umbrella


The contribution of the Nazi party, or rather, of their forebears, because Hitler didn't really have much in the way of original ideas, was providing a secular justification for anti-semitism. However, this was merely a new way of justifying what they already believed, a virulent anti-semitism inherited from a religious hatred nurtured for the better part of 2,000 years.Again, there is a blind leap of logic. You assume that everyone in 1930s Germany was some sort of raving anti-Semite and that Hitler just provided a handy excuse to kill some Jews. That's both completely baseless and ignores a whole tradition of anti-Semitism that has nothing to do with the Bible

Now the quickest way for you to end this discussion would be to demonstrate that Christian theology was actually the underlying driver behind the Holocaust. That there was a clear connection between the anti-Semitism of medieval and modern Germany

[NGNM85]

Which is the problem really with drawing a straight line from Emicho to Hitler - you lose sight of everything in between. Are you even aware of the different ideologies/prejudices/rationales that fall within the term 'anti-Semitism'?

First of all, the term anti-Semitism is somewhat dubious. ‘Semitic’ refers to a group of languages including Babylonian and Arabic, not a specific race or religion, however, I’m going to stick with it, for the time being. There’s Islamic anti-Semitism. There’s Christian anti-Semitism, which is sometimes divided into what you might call ‘anti-Judaism’ (Essentially, hostility towards Jews on the basis that they subscribe to one of the ‘wrong’ religions.) and the more virulent anti-Semitism. However, there is a lot of overlap. It’s a long, continuous line.

“I have been attacked because of my handling of the Jewish question. The Catholic Church considered the Jews pestilent for fifteen hundred years, put them in ghettos, etc., because it recognized the Jews for what they were. In the epoch of liberalism the danger was no longer recognized. I am moving back toward the time in which a fifteen-hundred-year-long tradition was implemented. I do not set race over religion, but I recognize the representatives of this race as pestilent for the state and for the Church, and perhaps I am thereby doing Christianity a great service by pushing them out of schools and public functions.”-Adolf Hitler


Are you aware of the history of discrimination against the Jews in Europe?

What specifically? The Crusades? The Dreyfus affair? The Protocols? Or, perhaps specific personalities, like Alfred Rosenberg, or Wagner, or Nietzsche’s brother-in-law who founded an Aryan colony in the 1880’s?


How do you explain that prior to the rise of Hitler discriminatory barriers against the Jews had been systematically coming down for over a century?

A century that included the Dreyfus Affair, the production and distribution of the Protocols, and a number of pogroms, etc. Fifteen years before Hitler became chancellor, 60 thousand Jews were massacred in Poland.


There's also a commandment not to kill. I wonder how that one has worked out over the years...?

No, actually a more literal translation is; ‘Thou shalt not murder.’ Also, it is made clear several times in the New Testament that the old rules still apply;

“For truly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass the law until all is accomplished. Whoever then relaxes one of the least of these commandments and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but he who does them and teaches them shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.” (Matthew 5:18-19)

“It is easier for Heaven and Earth to pass away than for the smallest part of the letter of the law to become invalid.” (Luke 16:17)

“Do not think that I have come to abolish the law or the prophets. I have come not to abolish but to fulfill. Amen, I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest part or the smallest part of a letter will pass from the law, until all things have taken place.” (Matthew 5:17)

“Did not Moses give you the law, and yet none of you keepeth the law” (John7:19)

If you’re larger point is that the scripture contradicts itself, you’ll get no argument from me, it very clearly does, on a number of occasions.



Ironically here you fall into the same trap as the Fundamentalists. Repeat after me: The Bible is not historical evidence.

Oh, absolutely not. It contains some history, in a mangled fashion, but it’s clearly highly distorted. No, I never meant that the scripture was, to any large extent, historically accurate, but that Christians do, in fact, believe it, as asinine as that is. The idea of religious tolerance should be anathema to anyone who takes a remotely literal interpretation of the scripture.


No, I want examples of an active Catholic Church role in formulating and perpetrating the Holocaust. And no, I don't just mean standing on the sidelines and looking the other way.

I didn’t say the Catholic Church solely perpetrated the holocaust. I said the virulent anti-semitism of the Nazi party has it’s roots in scripture and years of anti-Semitic propaganda from the Catholic church. I also have already given you a very specific example of very direct participation in the holocaust; by giving genealogical records to the Nazis so they could more easily identify and round up Jews. That’s active participation.


While you're at it, I'd also like to see you explain why the two single most barbaric examples of anti-Semitism in the early 20th C occurred in Russian and Germany - an Orthodox and predominately Protestant nation respectively.

Are you familiar with Martin Luther’s On the Jews and Their Lies?


Oh, and feel free to explain the rationale behind putting every Christian movement in the past two thousand years under the one umbrella

What I said was up until fairly recently, anti-Semitism was a healthy industry in Christendom. Also, that Christianity is fundamentally incompatible with other religions, which is hardly unique. Many religions are incompatible with other religions.


Again, there is a blind leap of logic. You assume that everyone in 1930s Germany was some sort of raving anti-Semite and that Hitler just provided a handy excuse to kill some Jews.

Not everyone, no. However, anti-Semitism, again, was a healthy and thriving industry at the time.


That's both completely baseless and ignores a whole tradition of anti-Semitism that has nothing to do with the Bible

Again, I never said all anti-Semitism comes from the Bible. For example, this does nothing to explain the virulent anti-Semitism in the Middle East, which has it’s origins in the Koran and Hadith, and, obviously, has been inflamed by the Israeli/Palestinian conflict, etc.


Now the quickest way for you to end this discussion would be to demonstrate that Christian theology was actually the underlying driver behind the Holocaust.

I didn’t say it was the only reason, I only meant it made a significant contribution. Even if Christianity (Both the religion and the institution of the church.) was only 1% responsible (And it certainly was much more than that.) we’re still talking about mass murder on a horrific level.


That there was a clear connection between the anti-Semitism of medieval and modern Germany

See above.

[ComradeOm]

First of all, the term anti-Semitism is somewhat dubious. ‘Semitic’ refers to a group of languages including Babylonian and Arabic, not a specific race or religion, however, I’m going to stick with it, for the time being. There’s Islamic anti-Semitism. There’s Christian anti-Semitism, which is sometimes divided into what you might call ‘anti-Judaism’ (Essentially, hostility towards Jews on the basis that they subscribe to one of the ‘wrong’ religions.) and the more virulent anti-SemitismWell its a bit late arriving at this realisation. Anti-Semitism and anti-Judaism are not, as you note, the same thing. Which pretty much sinks the idea that anti-Semitism is a bigotry predominately founded on theological arguments


What specifically? The Crusades? The Dreyfus affair? The Protocols? Or, perhaps specific personalities, like Alfred Rosenberg, or Wagner, or Nietzsche’s brother-in-law who founded an Aryan colony in the 1880’s?Let's start with these. Even comparing the first three should be enough to open your eyes. Do you think the Crusaders believed that the Jews lay at the centre of some vast conspiracy to control the world? Do you believe that Dreyfus was convicted in order to head off some racial degeneracy? And naturally the Protocols were the product of a powerful Catholic Church agitating against the Jews?

No, listing off a few events is of limited use if you have no grasp of their details or nuances


A century that included the Dreyfus Affair, the production and distribution of the Protocols, and a number of pogroms, etc. Fifteen years before Hitler became chancellor, 60 thousand Jews were massacred in PolandAnd by the time Hitler came to power the Vatican City was the only nation in the world to officially discriminate against Jews and it maintained the only Jewish ghetto. Yet these had been depressingly common in Europe just two centuries previously. You would deny that legal anti-Semitic barriers had been systematically coming down for centuries before the Holocaust?

Of course you would, your bizarrely linear history demands an unbroken chain of ever increasing anti-Semitism


No, actually a more literal translation is; ‘Thou shalt not murder.’ Also, it is made clear several times in the New Testament that the old rules still apply;[/FONT][/COLOR]

“For truly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass the law until all is accomplished. Whoever then relaxes one of the least of these commandments and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but he who does them and teaches them shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.” (Matthew 5:18-19)

“It is easier for Heaven and Earth to pass away than for the smallest part of the letter of the law to become invalid.” (Luke 16:17)

“Do not think that I have come to abolish the law or the prophets. I have come not to abolish but to fulfill. Amen, I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest part or the smallest part of a letter will pass from the law, until all things have taken place.” (Matthew 5:17)

“Did not Moses give you the law, and yet none of you keepeth the law” (John7:19)

[COLOR=black][FONT=Verdana] If you’re larger point is that the scripture contradicts itself, you’ll get no argument from me, it very clearly does, on a number of occasionsAnd if it wasn't for these disclaimers we would not know murder today? My 'larger point' is that people are not automatons blindly obeying some Holy Text. Nor is Church policy, be it spiritual or temporal, exclusively determined by a literal reading of the Bible. It is grossly anachronistic to claim that most Christians throughout history maintain a "literal interpretation of the scripture" or that the Bible is "historically accurate". This is particularly true of the Catholic Church which is not a Fundamentalist body


I didn’t say it was the only reason, I only meant it made a significant contribution. Even if Christianity (Both the religion and the institution of the church.) was only 1% responsible (And it certainly was much more than that.) we’re still talking about mass murder on a horrific level.My mistake, when you agreed that "the Holocaust was motivated by Christianity" I must have assumed that you meant... oh, wait :rolleyes:

Many of the Nazis, though not their leadership, would have considered themselves good Christians for carrying out their genocidal programmes. The latter was not informed or motivated by Christianity however. The blame for that lies with a completely different anti-Semitic tradition that emerged only in the 19th C.

And no, trying to put exact percentages on the ideological cocktail that drove Nazism is just silly. The Church can be blamed for specific historical cases in which it or its members participated in persecuting the Jews. Where there is no such evidence for this collaboration then it cannot be blamed (or have deaths assigned to it) on the basis of some medieval pillaging or abstract teachings

[Sixiang]

I believe he was pointing out the irony that fundamental christians, and christians alike, say when one of their own burns something, kills someone, etc.
I see. My bad. My sarcasm meter is usually not working well online.


It is interesting that they only want credit for the good stuff. When you cite the golden rule, or something, everybody's happy, but when you cite one of the numerous passages containing exhortations of violence or justification for some kind of atrocity suddenly you have to be a theology scholar. Suddenly, it's too complex for us mere mortals to understand.

Yeah, I've been hearing it all my life. The Catholic Church calls them "mysteries." Which really just means that they admit that it is impossible to prove with even basic logic that their beliefs are factual or make any sense.