Was the American Revolution justified?

[Lardlad95]

It's obvious almost everyone here is anti-American...and if you aren't entirely agains the US then mst likely you disaprove of it's policies.

However the American revolution was against an opressive monarchy.

But on the other hand look at what America has become.

So It's Reverse deotological theory time

Do the means justify the ends?

[Severian]

Why does a historically inevitable revolution require justificiation?

[Lardlad95]

Originally posted by [email protected] 1 2003, 04:30 PM
Why does a historically inevitable revolution require justificiation?
Everything needs justification, without justification everything is meaningless.

If there is no need for justification then there is no real reason to convert to socialism or communism(dpending on your beliefs)

so justify the AMerican Revo l ution

[Urban Rubble]

The American Revolution was completely justifiable. I hate this country's government and policies, but I still love what it was founded on.

How about this, tell us why it WASN'T justified, then we can debate.

[Lardlad95]

Originally posted by Urban [email protected] 1 2003, 05:00 PM
The American Revolution was completely justifiable. I hate this country's government and policies, but I still love what it was founded on.

How about this, tell us why it WASN'T justified, then we can debate.
I never said it wasn't justified...I was just posing a delema

THe US had a revolution to cas out an evil empire and in turn becam ena evil empire of it's own

So was hte revolution justified even though the US became what it over threw

[(*]

The american revolution was necessary...nobody knew what would happen hundreds of years later.

Just like with cuba...revolution was justifiable, but look at cuba now.


Also, besides American foreign policy (and some domestic policies)...America is still a great place to live!

[Urban Rubble]

"Also, besides American foreign policy (and some domestic policies)...America is still a great place to live!"

Yes, America IS a great place to live. The thing is, I don't hate America for what it has done to me, I hate it for what it has done to the REST of the world. The reason we are so happy here is because millions of others are suffering (at our expense).

[Invader Zim]

The American revolution is immaterial, substituting one group of rabid scum for another lot. An interesting fact about the revolution was that the Americans didnt actually win that many battles, the British just pulled out when it became too unprofitable.

It also has many characteristics of the French revolution, the American middle classes promised the workers the freedom and libertys they wanted, and as soon as the revolution was over and they got into power they spat on the workers and put in place a situation not that different from the previous one except that the American landed class raked in the profits rather than the Brits.

but I still love what it was founded on.

Do you know what it was founded on?

Well, you may have heard the Noam Chomsky quotation: -

"The country was founded on the the principal that, primary roll of the goverment is to protect property from the majority, and, so it remains."

Well, I read that that was origionaly a quotation from James Madison the "farther of the constitution", and 4th president of the USA.

[(*]

True,

I guess what I meant was that the american revolutionaries fought for a better way of life for their families, which has been achieved. Juxtaposed to life under the british crown.

[(*]

Originally posted by [email protected] 1 2003, 05:43 PM

but I still love what it was founded on.

Do you know what it was founded on?

Well, you may have heard the Noam Chomsky quotation: -

"The country was founded on the the principal that, primary roll of the goverment is to protect property from the majority, and, so it remains."


The revolutionaries were greatly influenced by John locke who believed in the rights of property.

and, the country was founded on equality, liberty, (well, "life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness")etc...
which was very hypocritical given the history of the times.

[andresG]

For a country to have a proletarian revolution, if must first have gone through a bourgeois or capitalist revolution.

This is what Marx said and it seems history has proven him right. (Look at the "socialist" revolutions in countries like Russia and China. They both eventually led to the establishment of capitalism.)

So, the American Revolution, can be seen as progressive. No longer a colony, America was free to become capitalist and with that comes the development of a working class.

But this might all be quite meaningless now a days, since the United States is the least likely place a communist revolution will take place.

[ernestolynch]

50% of white settlers, 90% of blacks and ALL the Native Americans fought with the Crown forces against the Rebels.

What do they teach you lot in American history lessons?

Read Zinn (Peoples History), Chomsky(1492) and Loehwen (Lies my Teacher Taught Me)

Don't rely on that right-wing bastard Mel Gibson for your history!

[Severian]

Originally posted by Lardlad95+Sep 1 2003, 04:52 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Lardlad95 @ Sep 1 2003, 04:52 PM)
[email protected] 1 2003, 04:30 PM
Why does a historically inevitable revolution require justificiation?
Everything needs justification, without justification everything is meaningless.

If there is no need for justification then there is no real reason to convert to socialism or communism(dpending on your beliefs)

so justify the AMerican Revo l ution [/b]
Care to justify why you&#39;re breathing, then? Revolutions happen when people feel they can no longer go on living in the old way, no more than they could stand to stop breathing.

[Severian]

Originally posted by [email protected] 1 2003, 05:07 PM
THe US had a revolution to cas out an evil empire and in turn becam ena evil empire of it&#39;s own

So was hte revolution justified even though the US became what it over threw
That&#39;s how human history works. Two steps forward, one step back. If we&#39;re lucky.

Expecting perfection is a good way to ruin any opportunity for improvement.

[crazy comie]

The main complanet was tax but that tax was just to pay for protection from the Freanch. The pepole incharge of the revoulotion just wanted ro maike more profit.

[suffianr]

From a historical perspective, it was an inevitability. The political situation in Europe, the Great Schism, the drive towards independence and sovereignty was as much a need as a dire consequence of a repressive monarchy and a politically-bankrupt colonial spirit.

[crazy comie]

it wasn&#39;t actully all that repressive.

[suffianr]

Then why did people run off (and some to die at sea) to the New World? :ph34r:

[Lardlad95]

Originally posted by [email protected] 1 2003, 10:13 PM
50% of white settlers, 90% of blacks and ALL the Native Americans fought with the Crown forces against the Rebels.

What do they teach you lot in American history lessons?

Read Zinn (Peoples History), Chomsky(1492) and Loehwen (Lies my Teacher Taught Me)

Don&#39;t rely on that right-wing bastard Mel Gibson for your history&#33;
90% of the Black slaves in America fought for the Brits?

Care to bring up a quote on some of those figures?

[YKTMX]

Yes, the U.S is a great place to live.....unless you&#39;re black, an immigrant, unemployed or part of the third of the population that lives below the absolute poverty line. Gawd&#39; Bless Freedom.

[Marxist in Nebraska]

I agree with AK47 that the American Revolution has been exaggerated, that the Revolution was more a matter of trading a foreign ruling class for a homegrown one. AndresG makes a reasonable point that breaking with British imperialism to move into capitalism was useful to an extent. Ernestolynch&#39;s statistics show how much faith the workers had in the new regime.

[Elect Marx]

Originally posted by Urban [email protected] 1 2003, 08:03 PM
"Also, besides American foreign policy (and some domestic policies)...America is still a great place to live&#33;"

Yes, America IS a great place to live. The thing is, I don&#39;t hate America for what it has done to me, I hate it for what it has done to the REST of the world. The reason we are so happy here is because millions of others are suffering (at our expense).
America is not a great place to live&#33; I may not live in terrible suffering or lacking important resources but this does not make a great life&#33; I have wasted so much of my life because of this wretched capitalist system. "Great" will be when I have enough freedom to chose my own path in life and "great" will be when I can help ease the suffering of people starving to death&#33; Until then, fuck this "great place to live&#33;" :hammer:

[Sasafrás]

I&#39;d say the American Revolution was justified. There was reason for the Americans to rise up and shit. I don&#39;t really care about it because American History is boring to me.

I&#39;d agree that America is a great place to live, and I&#39;m black, soooo........ <_< I&#39;ve had numerous opportunities here, to go to a good school, to go to college, get an education, and, in the future, get a great job. Who knows, maybe one day I&#39;ll be a translator for the CIA or FBI.. :lol:



Peace & Love,

Shayla

[Elect Marx]

Originally posted by Marxist in [email protected] 3 2003, 11:05 PM
I agree with AK47 that the American Revolution has been exaggerated, that the Revolution was more a matter of trading a foreign ruling class for a homegrown one. AndresG makes a reasonable point that breaking with British imperialism to move into capitalism was useful to an extent. Ernestolynch&#39;s statistics show how much faith the workers had in the new regime.
Oh yeah, I agree with you Comrade MIN, this was an imerialist movement. Once again the people were struggling under false pretences. The political powers of the times used the movement to shift.

[Marxist in Nebraska]

Originally posted by 313C7 iVi4RX+Sep 4 2003, 06:24 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (313C7 iVi4RX @ Sep 4 2003, 06:24 PM)
Marxist in [email protected] 3 2003, 11:05 PM
I agree with AK47 that the American Revolution has been exaggerated, that the Revolution was more a matter of trading a foreign ruling class for a homegrown one. AndresG makes a reasonable point that breaking with British imperialism to move into capitalism was useful to an extent. Ernestolynch&#39;s statistics show how much faith the workers had in the new regime.
Oh yeah, I agree with you Comrade MIN, this was an imerialist movement. Once again the people were struggling under false pretences. The political powers of the times used the movement to shift. [/b]
You are correct. Certain groups were manipulated by the "founding fathers." For example, you had slaves and free African-Americans fighting against the British because of the "all men are created equal"-style rhetoric. The founding fathers were all too willing in desperate situations to use them, but once the British were gone the calls for the equality of all men disappeared in elite circles.

[Organic Revolution]

the american revolution was justifiable. but BUT, after that everything went to the shits

[truthaddict11]

I think what should be asked is was the US right from breaking from British Imperialism. I think that they were right to break from British rule as are all colonies and countries have the right to break the imperialism and rule of other countries.

[Anarchist Freedom]

personally the american revolution was justified people were seeking a freedom they never had they couldnt speak against the goverment in monarchy rule they couldnt practice what they wanted soo the revolution is justified because its bound to happen that people will rebel against oppression sooner or later
8 D



:che:

still communist&#33;

[Funky Monk]

The Revolution is a bit of a con. In reallity there were a minority of disidents who encourgaed hte populous to revolt.

For a start America had a much lower tax rate that England.
The Boston Tea party was started by smugglers who didnt like the fact that Britain was selling tea at lower prices that the English even with import duty.
Most of the ringleaders wanted to have a war because they thought they would be better off in their own society.

But then again, history is written by the victors.

[kyrial]

I was watching a good documentary on the Allende coup today when one of the historians speaking talked about how "all revolutions are impossible until they happen, then in retrospect they are viewed as inevitable."

I think this is true of a vast majority of revoultions, including the one here in America. It wasn&#39;t necessarily a popular revolution and it certainly wasn&#39;t fought with the interests of the working man (since America at the time was somewhere around 90% agriculturally based as far as occupations), but rather for the elite section of mostly slave-owning white dissidents. It was handled rather poorly by the British Crown who could have taken steps to defuse the situation but instead good ole King George decided to send in the troops and really blow the lid off things. Let&#39;s remember that without the French entry into the war on America&#39;s side in all likelyhood things would have gone from bad to worse for the Americans and the revolution may well have foundered.

As far as justification, sure it was justified for the land-owning class who were now free to continue to expand and who would now be in a position to write the new economic laws of the country. But the average American worker who was a farmer by vocation simply didn&#39;t see a whole lot of change. I would say that the even bigger revolution was the revolt of the Southern States in what became the Civil War. But it&#39;s really always been about the land-owning class trying to justify more land-owning for themselves now, hasn&#39;t it? :)

I personally love most of the ideals set forth by some "Founding Fathers", but the United States has of late (and interpret that term as you will) ceased to operate on such principals. Chomsky said once that the United States was perhaps the free-est country in the world, and that is true. But it still doesn&#39;t excuse the way this current government like so many right wing administrations before it have sought to abuse their power for the elite and at the expense not just of the working class here but of the rest of the world.

[Sabocat]

personally the american revolution was justified people were seeking a freedom they never had they couldnt speak against the goverment.


Ever heard of the Sedition Act? Ever heard of the Espionage Act or the Patriot Act? So much for speaking out against the government eh? :lol:

AK was spot on....trading one ruling class for another. The "Revolution" was about taxes. Peasant farmers dying so that wealthy land owners could keep more of their money. If it was all about ending oppression, then why after the war, were people only allowed to vote if they had land and money? Why were women not allowed to vote at all? The divide between the rich and the poor started then and continues today.

[crazy comie]

It was also about the "right" to expand into naitive american land

[bluerev002]

In my opinion, the american revolution was fought for all the wrong reasons. People say it was for freedom, but they just didnt want to follow the rules. I dont know what is it about americans (and this is a true fact so dont come ranting at me) but they never follow the customs of others. MOst want things their way, in this case, they didnt want to pay taxes. the monarchy wasnt oppressive&#33; It only tightened when the colonist refused to follow the rules.

anyways, it was justified: To have a land where everyone is equal...

...right...its pretty much ironic then more than now and now more than then in diffrent ways.

[Marxist in Nebraska]

I have to acknowledge Comrade truthaddict11&#39;s post. Perhaps I did not state my post clearly, but of course I support every country&#39;s right to be free of foreign imperialism. I get frustrated, though, because the American Revolution is so overrated. Honestly, I am not sure that trading one foreign ruling class for a homegrown ruling class with many of the same cultural attributes can be considered an authentic revolution. I have to agree with Comrade crazy comie that one of the biggest grievances the colonial ruling class had with the mother country was that the crown would not allow further expansion west at the cost of the natives. The British had piled up sufficient debt fighting with France and did not want to take on the expenses of further imperial expansion into the Appalachians and beyond.

[BuyOurEverything]

So was hte revolution justified even though the US became what it over threw
You can&#39;t say something isn&#39;t right because of what it will become in a few hundred years.

[Marxist in Nebraska]

Originally posted by [email protected] 9 2003, 01:17 AM

So was hte revolution justified even though the US became what it over threw
You can&#39;t say something isn&#39;t right because of what it will become in a few hundred years.
That is very true. I think it is a fair question, though, whether a successful revolution would allow such a reaction as restoring that which was overthrown... to put it another way... Is a revolution truly successful if the society reverts back to a model similar to that which was overthrown?

[Elect Marx]

Originally posted by Marxist in [email protected] 9 2003, 04:40 PM
I think it is a fair question, though, whether a successful revolution would allow such a reaction as restoring that which was overthrown... to put it another way... Is a revolution truly successful if the society reverts back to a model similar to that which was overthrown?
Good question Comrade MIN,
Maybe not successful as far as perminance but it would set a presidant. Still, the failures of the past are damaging in some ways to our movement but they inspire us communists. If there was enough justified struggle, I think this could raise the expectations of the people and keep resistance high. :hammer: the more of us that struggle for justice, the better.

[Marxist in Nebraska]

Certainly, the American Revolution did set a precedent for revolution elsewhere. The first revolution coming from our vital ally against Britain during the revolution, France. Interestingly, the debt France incurred helping us separate from the British Empire is what drove the French to rebel against their king. There was revolution in Haiti before the dawn of the 19th Century, and it was at least indirectly influenced by the revolutions in the United States and France. In the 20th Century, no less a revolutionary than Ho Chi Minh found inspiration in the Declaration of Independence.

[Lardlad95]

Originally posted by 313C7 iVi4RX+Sep 4 2003, 11:20 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (313C7 iVi4RX @ Sep 4 2003, 11:20 PM)
Urban [email protected] 1 2003, 08:03 PM
"Also, besides American foreign policy (and some domestic policies)...America is still a great place to live&#33;"

Yes, America IS a great place to live. The thing is, I don&#39;t hate America for what it has done to me, I hate it for what it has done to the REST of the world. The reason we are so happy here is because millions of others are suffering (at our expense).
America is not a great place to live&#33; I may not live in terrible suffering or lacking important resources but this does not make a great life&#33; I have wasted so much of my life because of this wretched capitalist system. "Great" will be when I have enough freedom to chose my own path in life and "great" will be when I can help ease the suffering of people starving to death&#33; Until then, fuck this "great place to live&#33;" :hammer: [/b]
How is it America&#39;s fault that your life was wasted?

I&#39;m not a big fan of America but I&#39;m very lucky not to be livng in a shack in Hatti

[Ctisphonics]

Ben Franklin, where are you now? These Commies know nothing of your writtings&#33; They wear Bi-focals in debate, using words like Justification, a product of Theology from the Roman Fetials and Martial Theorists (Onasander dedicated a whole chapter to it, as well as sacrifice to the gods), as well as Medieval Catholic Theologians(I assume you are taking your cue from the medieval debate of just Cause?); in attempts to analysis a situation, but then eradicate the very basis of Theology, in which the word Justification is founded upon, and seek instead to interprate the reality through a secular materialist way. This harkens back to the debates in the formulation of Soviet Ideology, how many Chistian Theologians were allowed to participate in that; A limbless person could count the number on thier finger and toes&#33;

Why this double standard? I figured most of you were Athiest&#33;
----------
And second thing, " WE HAD NO WORKERS&#33;&#33;&#33;&#33;&#33;&#33;&#33;&#33;&#33;&#33;&#33;&#33;&#33;&#33;&#33;&#33;&#33;&#33;&#33; " If we did somewhere, the crown didn&#39;t know about them; even our number of Apprentics in workshops were restricted&#33;

Third, Class of landowners? That&#39;s like saying we had a class of Breathers, or Water Drinkers. Our system was not revolutionary on a ideologoical level, we largely agreed with the English system; heck, we even liked the king and long after we &#39;re&#39;formed congress and the continental army, still had hopes of making emmends with our soverign. I highly doubt even had the kind or nobility collapsed and fell into the &#39;masses&#39; possession somehow or another in north america, we would have followed the French method of killing off everyone. We had real grievances, and sought for a long time to get them fix, and by long time I mean several decades. The revolt was the result of not only being ingnored, but held in Contempt and denied access to representation, both in England and in the Colonies (ever heard of the House of Burgesses). In return, we got a bunch of A**hole governers and judges who managed to press EVERY single one of our buttons.

We were well read in the Roman system of Government (we didn&#39;t have T.V. back then, so the Classics were well read), and held the greatest respect for the Roman Rebublic, but also knew many of it&#39;s flaws, as well as thier roots. We set up a similar system, but adapted it for ourselfs, since the Romans were the only other group we knew of in history who managed to revolt against a king and set up a governemnt based on the people. Ol&#39; Karl Marx should have thought about this extra hard as to why we choose our current form of government, the Rebublican system. It sure the hell wasn&#39;t a historical inevitablity, but more or less just a result of European Medieval and Renassance insistance upon reading the Classics. We didn&#39;t adopt the old Republican system blindly, we picked what we wanted, and adapted it for our situation.

As for Slavery, No defense on my part of that, though I&#39;d like to point out we had the same Quaker roots that lead to it&#39;s irradication as in England. Had we remained a British Colony, they would NOT of Emanicpated the slaves as early as they did. In our Constitution of 1789, we made great strides towards the elimination of it, but the old british policies took root in the new world, and it unfortunatly took a civil war too clear up the whole mess (no thanks to England, and ESPECIALLY CANADA who actually helped the Confederacy attack Vermont and caused us considerable worried of an Anglo/Canadian invasion&#33;&#33;&#33;&#33;&#33;&#33;&#33;&#33;&#33;&#33;&#33;&#33;&#33; Ya, we remember&#33;, got any objections, Read Karl Marx&#39;s American Civil War)

As too the invasion of Indian lands, again, no defense. I can only say genetically speaking I&#39;m as much a victim as an aggressor, as are all of our ancestors since the beginning of sex (or rape I should say. Org kidnaps cavegirl from next valley over, or rapes he outright while his tribe attacks. What fault is it of the child?-Half his fault I supose.) I would also like to say, the English nor the Canadians, or for that manner, any Group in America, is Innocent, Even the Incas and the Aztec are guilty of it (especially the Inca&#39;s.) We all at one time or another displaced a tribe or nation form it&#39;s territory. States and Dynasty&#39;s may change, but thier decendants continue to play the game.

(that 50 percent doesn&#39;t count, or at the very least should be better explaines, given many were Canadians up north(note: the word Canadian exsisted in Colonial times, they were viewed even then as a seperate group). The Expanion of Quebec was also a major cause for revolution, and just what country is Quebec in currently?)

[FabFabian]

Yes the word Canadian existed in colonial times, but the word referred to those who were Quebecois.

As far as the American Revolution goes, I like to paraphrase a quote from Dazed and Confused.

The American Revolution was about a bunch of wealthy white guys who didn&#39;t want to pay taxes. :P

[Marxist in Nebraska]

Originally posted by [email protected] 20 2003, 01:07 AM
As far as the American Revolution goes, I like to paraphrase a quote from Dazed and Confused.

The American Revolution was about a bunch of wealthy white guys who didn&#39;t want to pay taxes. :P
Hahaha&#33; Good one...