My Analysis of the Left

[Frosty Weasel]

After playing this charade, I think I've wasted my time here long enough. I've thought it proper to post it here considering the circumstances,

I am a student at Hebrew University in Jerusalem. I am from the United States and I am studying Political Science and Economics. I've been here for the last several days gathering information for a paper on how the Left thinks and how it's general demeanor is, and you've all supplied a great deal of information for my analysis.

You're all so easily fooled by cheap words and simple word tricks that I find it amazing that you haven't been penetrated by anyone on the right wing. All it took for me to win someone over was playing on the the typical Marxist's unquenchable thirst for acceptance and uniformity.

Do you want to know the reason why your precious ideologies will never work, even though you scream it all the louder from your ideological pulpits? It is your extreme chauvinism and lack of an acceptance for alternative views. You demand uniformity in everything, you demand an acceptance which is simply incompatible with human existence.

By seeking to eliminate the only system that has more or less worked with humankind, which is Capitalism, you reject what simply is. Man at his ideological core is selfish and greedy. Religion realized this deeply ingrained selfishness and deemed it sin, and tried to develop a structure to remove this from him. You mock it, although you share the same goal and zeal as any religious zealot. The state recognized man's selfishness and developed laws to remove this from him. You mock it, although you share the same goal and nationalistic solidarity to your ideology as any nationalist to his country. Finally Capitalism realized man's selfishness and greed as impossible to separate from him, but instead of subverting his nature, Capitalism upheld it as a tool for progress. You mock it, yet you only want what Capitalism has produced.

You are all fools. Ideologically swept off your feet you have forsaken what is and replaced it with what you believe the world should be. You are just as ideologically blind and malicious as the Fascists of the 20th century. You, who once saw great promise for mankind now only see the potential of humankind to a mere unit of production, something to become one with and then to be cast aside, something to be speculated and manipulated.

The heart of man will never fully embrace communism or fascism or any polar extreme because man is none of those things. The average man wants a job, a home, a wife at his side and children at his feet. The average man is not concerned with politics or liberation, he is concerned about what he can do freely! Man wants liberty to accomplish all that his nature desires, and through this will come equality.

For the rest of these discussions I leave to members of this community. I would like to thank all of you who had discussions with me for your contributions.

[~Spectre]

The heart of man will never fully embrace communism or fascism .


Well duh. The heart of man is an internal organ that pumps your blood. If it embraces anything than you're in real trouble. Don't they teach you this in Hebrew University?

[Nolan]

So you come here "undercover" with a bunch of the obligatory preconceptions then refuse to learn anything about the left. That's cool I guess.

[ZeroNowhere]

Do you want to know the reason why your precious ideologies will never work, even though you scream it all the louder from your ideological pulpits? It is your extreme chauvinism and lack of an acceptance for alternative views.I don't think that this is relevant. Working class political power will probably precede a significant amount of people becoming communist, in either case.


You are all fools. Ideologically swept off your feet you have forsaken what is and replaced it with what you believe the world should be.Yes, I am presently imagining that your post is some sort of parody. This is not so much ideological, however, as to do with giving people the benefit of the doubt.

[#FF0000]

You're all so easily fooled by cheap words and simple word tricks that I find it amazing that you haven't been penetrated by anyone on the right wing. All it took for me to win someone over was playing on the the typical Marxist's unquenchable thirst for acceptance and uniformity. You came across as a really typical teenager who thinks he "saw the light" or something. :mellow: Good job I guess though.

[(A)(_|]

This guy is epic :lol:

[Nolan]

Oh and you're writing a "paper." I can only imagine the clever observations this journalistic masterpiece will hold.

[Frosty Weasel]

I've yet to see someone actually say something above the level of petty jokes, or am I simply not worth it?

[ZeroNowhere]

You aren't worth it, sorry to say.

[#FF0000]

Man, what bugs me about people like OP isn't the fact that they hold views that I think are dumb. It's that they don't understand things like "confirmation bias" and instead of discussing and debating and being frank and upfront they make sweeping generalizations of all of their opponents, and then pretend they are some on some untouchable higher plane of reason when they think like a child or something.

OP you are the worst sort of person and it has nothing to do with your being a libertarian. :mellow:


I've yet to see someone actually say something above the level of petty jokes, or am I simply not worth it?


You really aren't. Sorry.

[Ele'ill]

I think I've wasted my time here long enough.

Ok


and you've all supplied a great deal of information for my analysis.

I'm sure your paper will be stunning after a week of internet forum research. Are you going to write it in crayon?



You're all so easily fooled by cheap words and simple word tricks that I find it amazing that you haven't been penetrated by anyone on the right wing. All it took for me to win someone over was playing on the the typical Marxist's unquenchable thirst for acceptance and uniformity.

Do you want to know the reason why your precious ideologies will never work, even though you scream it all the louder from your ideological pulpits? It is your extreme chauvinism and lack of an acceptance for alternative views. You demand uniformity in everything, you demand an acceptance which is simply incompatible with human existence.



By seeking to eliminate the only system that has more or less worked with humankind, which is Capitalism, you reject what simply is. Man at his ideological core is selfish and greedy. Religion realized this deeply ingrained selfishness and deemed it sin, and tried to develop a structure to remove this from him. You mock it, although you share the same goal and zeal as any religious zealot. The state recognized man's selfishness and developed laws to remove this from him. You mock it, although you share the same goal and nationalistic solidarity to your ideology as any nationalist to his country. Finally Capitalism realized man's selfishness and greed as impossible to separate from him, but instead of subverting his nature, Capitalism upheld it as a tool for progress. You mock it, yet you only want what Capitalism has produced.

You are all fools. Ideologically swept off your feet you have forsaken what is and replaced it with what you believe the world should be. You are just as ideologically blind and malicious as the Fascists of the 20th century. You, who once saw great promise for mankind now only see the potential of humankind to a mere unit of production, something to become one with and then to be cast aside, something to be speculated and manipulated.

The heart of man will never fully embrace communism or fascism or any polar extreme because man is none of those things. The average man wants a job, a home, a wife at his side and children at his feet. The average man is not concerned with politics or liberation, he is concerned about what he can do freely! Man wants liberty to accomplish all that his nature desires, and through this will come equality.

For the rest of these discussions I leave to members of this community. I would like to thank all of you who had discussions with me for your contributions.

So by wasting your time pretending to be a leftist (for a week) you have, well, wasted your time- while the rest of us here are left in this thread trying to remember a single post of yours aside from this one here.

[Manic Impressive]

By seeking to eliminate the only system that has more or less worked with humankind, which is Capitalism, you reject what simply is. Man at his ideological core is selfish and greedy.
Haha you think capitalism works?:laugh:

Well I guess it works better than feudalism from the ruling class perspective.

[The Garbage Disposal Unit]

Before I begin, I want to put it out there that I harbour no love for the left wing of capital, for the state, etc. . . . but this is fucking ridiculous.


By seeking to eliminate the only system that has more or less worked with humankind, which is Capitalism, you reject what simply is.

Uh . . . humans lived in co-operative hunter-gatherer societies many, many times longer than they lived in capitalist societies. Not that I'd argue for a hunter-gatherer model for everyone on the planet, but, well, yr appeal to "human nature" is fucking weak.


You, who once saw great promise for mankind now only see the potential of humankind to a mere unit of production, something to become one with and then to be cast aside, something to be speculated and manipulated.

Wait, wait . . . you're saying this from the perspective of a commitment to capitalism? If not what you're describing, what is the consequence of the mediation of all human activity by the logic of the commodity?


The average man wants a job, a home, a wife at his side and children at his feet.

This is just so bizarre that it defies response. The "average" is a boring hetrosexual who lives in a Western society? These catagories "a job", "a wife", are so totally culturally contextual that . . . ugh.


What primarily interests me about this post is the way it illustrates something I read recently:
"A modern economic system demands mass production of students who are not educated and have been rendered incapable of thinking."

[Bright Banana Beard]

You didn't bring any crictism at all, you simply just show yourself that you think you know the "left" well enough.

You don't, you won't be the first or the last guy to do this.

[Skooma Addict]

I think the OP was listening to some inspirational music on his headphones when he wrote this while pretending he was writing some kind of vigorous epic emotional speech.

[#FF0000]

Damn, son even the resident Misean (right?) is turning on you. Situation is bleak.

[Ele'ill]

I've yet to see someone actually say something above the level of petty jokes, or am I simply not worth it?

We were thinking the same thing about you and you posted first. You lead the discussion. Start with a topic.

[La Comédie Noire]

I've just been looking over your posts and there us no way you have enough material to write a paper nor is any of it substantial. Truth be told, I thought you kinda got obnoxious in the "Strawman!" thread. :lol:

You should have waited longer and wrote more, I just thought you were a noob who was eager to please.

Good luck with that paper though, but make sure you don't put in how you addressed people as "bro".

[#FF0000]

Ah, and he signs off. What a champ. Goes online, pretends to have an opinion, and then act shocked--SHOCKED-- that all these pathetic sheeple don't go right on out and pick up on his super-clever ruse and interrogate him. Clearly this means nobody on the Left thinks.

This isn't intellectual or academic rigor, and it's sure as hell not an analysis. You may as well have written a paper that said "libertarians rule, statists drool". In fact, that sounds like what you've done.

I think we can let this thread die until OP picks up a spine and spleen combo and decides to make arguments instead of ad hominem attacks and sweeping generalizations,

[sologdin]

see someone actually say something above the level of petty jokes

bizarre to make this objection now, after what has occurred already. the original post does not appear to merit serious response. consider, for instance, the following:

I've wasted my time

You're all so easily fooled by cheap words and simple word tricks

your extreme chauvinism and lack of an acceptance

You are all fools

You are just as ideologically blind and malicious

this is a substantial amount of argumentum ad hominem for such an insubstantial contribution; the rest of the post appears to be rehashed ayn rand paraphrasis.

a non-serious post should estoppe the poster of same from later complaining that the post at issue was not taken seriously = basic rule of the internet.

[#FF0000]

I really think this thread should die until OP comes back so he can respond without having to write a novel.

[Rocky Rococo]

Nope, you're definitely not worth it.

Where do I put in the application to get these five minutes of my life back?

[Skooma Addict]

I want to make sure I am understanding this correctly. This guy pretended to be a "leftist" for a week in order to secretly gather information about Socialism even though he could have done this just as easily without making an account (which actually would have been far easier). Then with the "information" he gathered through his stealth ops infiltration, he is going to write some kind of paper which contains arguments based on posts on an internet forum.

[#FF0000]

Yeah that's pretty much it, Skooma.

I think he's just a troll tbh

[Ele'ill]

I can't even remember what the user's username is.

[#FF0000]

Room Temperature Otter iirc.

[Nolan]

I've yet to see someone actually say something above the level of petty jokes, or am I simply not worth it?

I wasn't aware an argument was made. Let's go through this:


After playing this charade, I think I've wasted my time here long enough. I've thought it proper to post it here considering the circumstances, A shame. You could have kept it going, you know.


I am a student at Hebrew University in Jerusalem. I am from the United States and I am studying Political Science and Economics. I've been here for the last several days gathering information for a paper on how the Left thinks and how it's general demeanor is, and you've all supplied a great deal of information for my analysis. I hope for your grade's sake your professor isn't a revolutionary leftist.


You're all so easily fooled by cheap words and simple word tricks that I find it amazing that you haven't been penetrated by anyone on the right wing. All it took for me to win someone over was playing on the the typical Marxist's unquenchable thirst for acceptance and uniformity.Explain what you mean by "win someone over."


Do you want to know the reason why your precious ideologies will never work, even though you scream it all the louder from your ideological pulpits? It is your extreme chauvinism and lack of an acceptance for alternative views. You demand uniformity in everything, you demand an acceptance which is simply incompatible with human existence. Ok. If the Marxist analysis of class can by reduced to "demanding uniformity" whatever that means, then we're guilty as charged.


By seeking to eliminate the only system that has more or less worked with humankind, which is Capitalism,Everything "works" with mankind. I mean feudalism and previous systems were around longer than capitalism has been so far and they still have vestiges today.

From here on you start to make quasi-arguments. More silly platitudes actually:


you reject what simply is. Man at his ideological core is selfish and greedy.I usually would never reply on an individualist's terms, but I'll make an exception: man is a group animal. We are social beings, and humans evolved - actually all animals evolved - to the benefit of the group. Not that that necessarily has anything to do with socialism. Or that man's supposed inherent greed (as defined by you) has anything to do with capitalist property relations. Libertarianism and individualism are not the only capitalist ideologies.


Religion realized this deeply ingrained selfishness and deemed it sin, and tried to develop a structure to remove this from him.You're working from an anachronism. Religion was around long before free markets or anything like that.


You mock it, although you share the same goal and zeal as any religious zealot.I suppose irony is lost on you, then.


The state recognized man's selfishness and developed laws to remove this from him.Again. The state is a tool of class rule. It's function is not to suppress selfishness or whatever but to ensure the status quo whether that is slave holders, feudal landlords or capitalists.


You mock it, although you share the same goal and nationalistic solidarity to your ideology as any nationalist to his country.Boy meets irony.


Finally Capitalism realized man's selfishness and greed as impossible to separate from him, but instead of subverting his nature, Capitalism upheld it as a tool for progress. You mock it, yet you only want what Capitalism has produced. What man? You're disembodying capitalism from its class aspects. And I guess I'll go ahead and burst your bubble. While capitalism was realizing man's selfishness it was also realizing man's fundamental difference from others of different origins. Nationalism and racism as we know them came to be political factors at the same time as individualism.


You are all fools. Ideologically swept off your feet you have forsaken what is and replaced it with what you believe the world should be. You are just as ideologically blind and malicious as the Fascists of the 20th century. You, who once saw great promise for mankind now only see the potential of humankind to a mere unit of production, something to become one with and then to be cast aside, something to be speculated and manipulated.Actually that describes liberalism pretty well. Which you've embraced with a fervor obviously.


The heart of man will never fully embrace communism or fascism or any polar extreme because man is none of those things. The average man wants a job, a home, a wife at his side and children at his feet. The average man is not concerned with politics or liberation, he is concerned about what he can do freely! Man wants liberty to accomplish all that his nature desires, and through this will come equality. That's nice.


For the rest of these discussions I leave to members of this community. I would like to thank all of you who had discussions with me for your contributions. More than happy.

[Nolan]

Why did I bother writing that?

[Robert]

Vengeance.

I'm pissed off too, but for different reasons. I shoulda caught the rat.

You know why, too, don't you?

You rat. (I'm talking to the rat, not to Nolan.)

[renzo_novatore]

Well frosty weasel, you've contributed greatly to my own understanding of libertarians. I'll be sure to get my doctorate on it!



Quote:
Originally Posted by Frosty Weasel:


Quote:
Originally Posted by renzo_novatore
Or we could be fourierists. You know fourier wanted to make all the jews work on farming as slave labor. Let's not use jews, let's use capitalists instead! Hooray! Send the entire von mises institute to the gulags! Pricks. I mean there's like 2 million ron paul supporters and glenn beck's entire audience and then republicans! We could be living like kings and not working at all! Just use them!


You just made my fucking year sir.

Holy crap - are you seriously going to use what I said in your "college" essay??!?! Is that seriously why I made your "fucking year?!?!" :laugh:

Oh my fucking god -


Do you want to know the reason why your precious ideologies will never work, even though you scream it all the louder from your ideological pulpits? It is your extreme chauvinism and lack of an acceptance for alternative views. You demand uniformity in everything, you demand an acceptance which is simply incompatible with human existence.


You're totally basing your entire "college essay" on that one post I made!

F for failing to understand sarcasm. This is especially ironic, since although I would prefer anarcho-communism, I'm an anarchist without adjectives first!

This is just really really really pathetic. I'm embarrassed for you.

[TheCultofAbeLincoln]

Well, if the OP is telling the truth then I wish him well with his paper. I imagine Israel as a sunny and warm place, so unlike the miserableness that is the northeast us.

[NoOneIsIllegal]

I want to read his paper. It will be mind-blowing and an instant classic in Marxist literature.

[Blamelessman]

After playing this charade, I think I've wasted my time here long enough. I've thought it proper to post it here considering the circumstances,

I am a student at Hebrew University in Jerusalem. I am from the United States and I am studying Political Science and Economics. I've been here for the last several days gathering information for a paper on how the Left thinks and how it's general demeanor is, and you've all supplied a great deal of information for my analysis.

You're all so easily fooled by cheap words and simple word tricks that I find it amazing that you haven't been penetrated by anyone on the right wing. All it took for me to win someone over was playing on the the typical Marxist's unquenchable thirst for acceptance and uniformity.

Do you want to know the reason why your precious ideologies will never work, even though you scream it all the louder from your ideological pulpits? It is your extreme chauvinism and lack of an acceptance for alternative views. You demand uniformity in everything, you demand an acceptance which is simply incompatible with human existence.

By seeking to eliminate the only system that has more or less worked with humankind, which is Capitalism, you reject what simply is. Man at his ideological core is selfish and greedy. Religion realized this deeply ingrained selfishness and deemed it sin, and tried to develop a structure to remove this from him. You mock it, although you share the same goal and zeal as any religious zealot. The state recognized man's selfishness and developed laws to remove this from him. You mock it, although you share the same goal and nationalistic solidarity to your ideology as any nationalist to his country. Finally Capitalism realized man's selfishness and greed as impossible to separate from him, but instead of subverting his nature, Capitalism upheld it as a tool for progress. You mock it, yet you only want what Capitalism has produced.

You are all fools. Ideologically swept off your feet you have forsaken what is and replaced it with what you believe the world should be. You are just as ideologically blind and malicious as the Fascists of the 20th century. You, who once saw great promise for mankind now only see the potential of humankind to a mere unit of production, something to become one with and then to be cast aside, something to be speculated and manipulated.

The heart of man will never fully embrace communism or fascism or any polar extreme because man is none of those things. The average man wants a job, a home, a wife at his side and children at his feet. The average man is not concerned with politics or liberation, he is concerned about what he can do freely! Man wants liberty to accomplish all that his nature desires, and through this will come equality.

For the rest of these discussions I leave to members of this community. I would like to thank all of you who had discussions with me for your contributions.


Well for a little dweeb that's rather good.

Keep letting monsanto destroy the world and try to own every plant. ;)

[Tablo]

Don't colleges typically want papers that use "scholarly" sources? I can guarantee you that if I cited revleft in a paper I would fail the class.

[#FF0000]

Yeah Tsukae, that's why I think this is just a troll. :mellow:

[TheCultofAbeLincoln]

Actually I'm pretty sure that in Israel it is common practice to base all conclusions of off very small, non-representative, skewed, and unreliable sources.

[ZeroNowhere]

Well, it could be an English essay which cites Revleft ironically in a context where nobody really knows what is being said and therefore leaves it be.

[RGacky3]

So, we are all conformists, and desire uniformity .... Yet we are Anarchists, Marxists, Socialists and so on .... in a Capitalist society. :rolleyes:.

[RGacky3]

The average man wants a job, a home, a wife at his side and children at his feet.

Thats kind of the premis of Socialism ....

[Property Is Robbery]

Frosty weasel please post your essay when it's done! :D

[Dimentio]

After playing this charade, I think I've wasted my time here long enough. I've thought it proper to post it here considering the circumstances,

I am a student at Hebrew University in Jerusalem. I am from the United States and I am studying Political Science and Economics. I've been here for the last several days gathering information for a paper on how the Left thinks and how it's general demeanor is, and you've all supplied a great deal of information for my analysis.

You're all so easily fooled by cheap words and simple word tricks that I find it amazing that you haven't been penetrated by anyone on the right wing. All it took for me to win someone over was playing on the the typical Marxist's unquenchable thirst for acceptance and uniformity.

Do you want to know the reason why your precious ideologies will never work, even though you scream it all the louder from your ideological pulpits? It is your extreme chauvinism and lack of an acceptance for alternative views. You demand uniformity in everything, you demand an acceptance which is simply incompatible with human existence.

By seeking to eliminate the only system that has more or less worked with humankind, which is Capitalism, you reject what simply is. Man at his ideological core is selfish and greedy. Religion realized this deeply ingrained selfishness and deemed it sin, and tried to develop a structure to remove this from him. You mock it, although you share the same goal and zeal as any religious zealot. The state recognized man's selfishness and developed laws to remove this from him. You mock it, although you share the same goal and nationalistic solidarity to your ideology as any nationalist to his country. Finally Capitalism realized man's selfishness and greed as impossible to separate from him, but instead of subverting his nature, Capitalism upheld it as a tool for progress. You mock it, yet you only want what Capitalism has produced.

You are all fools. Ideologically swept off your feet you have forsaken what is and replaced it with what you believe the world should be. You are just as ideologically blind and malicious as the Fascists of the 20th century. You, who once saw great promise for mankind now only see the potential of humankind to a mere unit of production, something to become one with and then to be cast aside, something to be speculated and manipulated.

The heart of man will never fully embrace communism or fascism or any polar extreme because man is none of those things. The average man wants a job, a home, a wife at his side and children at his feet. The average man is not concerned with politics or liberation, he is concerned about what he can do freely! Man wants liberty to accomplish all that his nature desires, and through this will come equality.

For the rest of these discussions I leave to members of this community. I would like to thank all of you who had discussions with me for your contributions.

To some extent true about the more dogmatic marxist-leninists.

The thing is that capitalism in general is very intrusive upon people's lives, since it is concentrating wealth and power into the hands of bankers, investors and stock-owners, depriving the majority of people of access to the resources, thus forcing them to seek employment in uneven relationships of power.

And, if "Man" wants all that, how come people here obviously do not want that?

Moreover, what does "Woman" wants? Be protected by a strong male who could provide for her and then mount her?

[ComradeMan]

You're all so easily fooled by cheap words and simple word tricks that I find it amazing that you haven't been penetrated by anyone on the right wing. All it took for me to win someone over was playing on the the typical Marxist's unquenchable thirst for acceptance and uniformity.

Is that the prerogative of the left? "No new taxes" comes to mind, or perhaps the slogan "Yes, we can"- repeated ad nauseam or perhaps the endless stream of rightwing/neoliberal whatever politicians who say they are going to run the country like a business despite the fact that a country is not a business. I don't know about cheap words- but the latest buzzword of the moment where I am is "bunga bunga"! :lol:

I think this argument just fails on sweeping generalisation and personal point of view.


Do you want to know the reason why your precious ideologies will never work, even though you scream it all the louder from your ideological pulpits? It is your extreme chauvinism and lack of an acceptance for alternative views. You demand uniformity in everything, you demand an acceptance which is simply incompatible with human existence.

So there are no differing views within the left? Sometimes the left has been harshest on the err.... left? Who are you talking about exactly?

Who is demanding uniformity? Do anarchists demand uniformity? They seem to be the least conformist of political animals whereas neoliberals nealy always conform to the "golf club" or "yacht club" style and look like something out of a 1970s family sit-com.


By seeking to eliminate the only system that has more or less worked with humankind, which is Capitalism, you reject what simply is. Man at his ideological core is selfish and greedy. Religion realized this deeply ingrained selfishness and deemed it sin, and tried to develop a structure to remove this from him. You mock it, although you share the same goal and zeal as any religious zealot. The state recognized man's selfishness and developed laws to remove this from him. You mock it, although you share the same goal and nationalistic solidarity to your ideology as any nationalist to his country. Finally Capitalism realized man's selfishness and greed as impossible to separate from him, but instead of subverting his nature, Capitalism upheld it as a tool for progress. You mock it, yet you only want what Capitalism has produced.

Capitalism hasn't actually been around that long, at most 3-400 years and is not a political ideology that someone sat down, thought about and wrote.

Secondly, Marx saw capitalism in a positive light in the sense of it was a step on the process towards communism.

How can you be nationalistic about an internationalist ideology?

You make capitalism sound like La Veyan Satanism to be honest.... :lol:



You are all fools. Ideologically swept off your feet you have forsaken what is and replaced it with what you believe the world should be. You are just as ideologically blind and malicious as the Fascists of the 20th century. You, who once saw great promise for mankind now only see the potential of humankind to a mere unit of production, something to become one with and then to be cast aside, something to be speculated and manipulated.

Although I agree there is far too much talk of economics at times, leading to economism- I don't think people here are only worried about units of production and I think you'll find differing views. Nevertheless in this wonderful capitalist system of yours humans are basically reduced to what they own and what they produce and nothing else.... Ooops. :blushing:


The heart of man will never fully embrace communism or fascism or any polar extreme because man is none of those things. The average man wants a job, a home, a wife at his side and children at his feet. The average man is not concerned with politics or liberation, he is concerned about what he can do freely! Man wants liberty to accomplish all that his nature desires, and through this will come equality.

Who the fuck are you to say that? By the way what is "the heart of man"- you're relying on metaphors now, always a bad sign.

The average man- who is the average man? I thought you were railing against uniformity and conformity and now you're applying it in your own analysis.

If humans truly desire the liberty to express themselves and achieve their own desires then indeed it will only come with equality but this equality will not be achieved under a socio-economic system that enforces division in terms of class and nation/race.

You've defeated your own argument here.

[Che a chara]

Frosty Weasel, the progression of capitalism in society is necessary, as Marx explained. When it is has exploited and contradicted and society has the developed means and mode of production, then it is possible to overthrow that system. not only is it possible, but it is essential for the continued existence of man and the planet.

Marxism is a democratic procedure, needing the conformity of the majority of the population, which is the working class. you talk about extreme chauvinism and lack of acceptance for alternative views, well dude sorry to burst you bubble, but this is a discussion forum, and in real life I'm sure in the revolution there would be an open acceptance and unity with the working class majority over the ruling class minority after it becomes apparent who is the oppressed/exploited and who is the oppressor/exploiter

If man wants to raise a family and have kids, he can do so in a socialist society, except he wont have the demands of an exhausting long hour and meaningless job so he can spend more time with his family.

if you don't think it's possible to make people consciously aware of the failings of society economically, socially and politically then you are not giving humans credit and are pigeonholing them as robots chained to the system unable to think for themselves, and you have just proved why it is indeed necessary for the destruction of capitalism, so i think you have just self defeated your own argument by saying man is selfish and greedy but this has not always been the case in history, as has been pointed out. if man can be manipulated into organised religion, where morals and values can form, why do you not think man can be drawn to an ideology where his best interests are at the fore and these morals and values are developed ?

I'm sure your uni in Al-quds will be frothing at the mouth at the research you found posted by anonymous users on a public forum, and will grade your paper as toilet paper if you are seriously considering assigning this is as analysis of how the left thinks.

[graymouser]

I find this troll's premise off base: in the forums outside of OI we aren't here to convince people of revolutionary leftism but to put that as an agreed-upon common basis and debate the relative merits of different positions and have discussions through which people will deepen their knowledge and understanding of positions they already take up. We weren't trying to convince him but to discuss with him as an equal, yet his grand takeaway is that we didn't convince him. Astounding.

[Bud Struggle]

Well, OK here goes:


After playing this charade, I think I've wasted my time here long enough. I've thought it proper to post it here considering the circumstances,

I am a student at Hebrew University in Jerusalem. I am from the United States and I am studying Political Science and Economics. I've been here for the last several days gathering information for a paper on how the Left thinks and how it's general demeanor is, and you've all supplied a great deal of information for my analysis. You could have just asked.


You're all so easily fooled by cheap words and simple word tricks that I find it amazing that you haven't been penetrated by anyone on the right wing. All it took for me to win someone over was playing on the the typical Marxist's unquenchable thirst for acceptance and uniformity. Well to be honest--it's pretty easy to fool people on the internet.


Do you want to know the reason why your precious ideologies will never work, even though you scream it all the louder from your ideological pulpits? It is your extreme chauvinism and lack of an acceptance for alternative views. You demand uniformity in everything, you demand an acceptance which is simply incompatible with human existence. That's pretty on target for RevLeft--on the other hand Communism in real life is all over the place. I'm don't think RevLeft is an accurate mirror oc Communist philosophy.


By seeking to eliminate the only system that has more or less worked with humankind, which is Capitalism, you reject what simply is. Man at his ideological core is selfish and greedy. Religion realized this deeply ingrained selfishness and deemed it sin, and tried to develop a structure to remove this from him. You mock it, although you share the same goal and zeal as any religious zealot. The state recognized man's selfishness and developed laws to remove this from him. You mock it, although you share the same goal and nationalistic solidarity to your ideology as any nationalist to his country. Finally Capitalism realized man's selfishness and greed as impossible to separate from him, but instead of subverting his nature, Capitalism upheld it as a tool for progress. You mock it, yet you only want what Capitalism has produced. Well you have that spot on. There is a softer side of man than that is developed through society,
and religion, but society and religion can only go so far. Democratic Capitalism does a pretty fair job of arranging the world to both cater to the nature of man as well as cut down on overall brutality.


You are all fools. Ideologically swept off your feet you have forsaken what is and replaced it with what you believe the world should be. You are just as ideologically blind and malicious as the Fascists of the 20th century. You, who once saw great promise for mankind now only see the potential of humankind to a mere unit of production, something to become one with and then to be cast aside, something to be speculated and manipulated. Well I don't think they are malicious. There are starry eyed idealists--but I don't think they they are Communist in order to hurt people--they honestly want a better world.


The heart of man will never fully embrace communism or fascism or any polar extreme because man is none of those things. The average man wants a job, a home, a wife at his side and children at his feet. The average man is not concerned with politics or liberation, he is concerned about what he can do freely! Man wants liberty to accomplish all that his nature desires, and through this will come equality. You are right there. And when man is concerned with liberation is almost always for personal liberation.


For the rest of these discussions I leave to members of this community. I would like to thank all of you who had discussions with me for your contributions. :)

[danyboy27]

I dont get it, there is like, a trillion book out there on the various branch of the left, verry good material he could have used, and probably some leftist organisation he could have looked up in his neigborhood, but instead, he decide to ''gather'' information over an internet forum?

if his goal is to come up with something called Atlas shrugged 2.0, then its gonna be a failure.

[gorillafuck]

I've yet to see someone actually say something above the level of petty jokes, or am I simply not worth it?
You didn't say anything of substance. You made very vague accusations and statements that try to sound smart but really you didn't actually put much behind them. How does someone debate with vague accusations?


if his goal is to come up with something called Atlas shrugged 2.0, then its gonna be a failure.
Haha I hope that's not what's going on....

[southernmissfan]

I dont get it, there is like, a trillion book out there on the various branch of the left, verry good material he could have used, and probably some leftist organisation he could have looked up in his neigborhood, but instead, he decide to ''gather'' information over an internet forum?

if his goal is to come up with something called Atlas shrugged 2.0, then its gonna be a failure.

There's nothing to "get" other than the fact that it's just a troll.

[Obs]

Am I the only one greatly entertained by his insistence on using 1950's-style rhetoric, right down to pretending women don't exist?

[ExUnoDisceOmnes]

By seeking to eliminate the only system that has more or less worked with humankind, which is Capitalism, you reject what simply is. Man at his ideological core is selfish and greedy. Religion realized this deeply ingrained selfishness and deemed it sin, and tried to develop a structure to remove this from him. You mock it, although you share the same goal and zeal as any religious zealot. The state recognized man's selfishness and developed laws to remove this from him. You mock it, although you share the same goal and nationalistic solidarity to your ideology as any nationalist to his country. Finally Capitalism realized man's selfishness and greed as impossible to separate from him, but instead of subverting his nature, Capitalism upheld it as a tool for progress. You mock it, yet you only want what Capitalism has produced.

Your extensive college education qualifies you to make sweeping generalizations about human nature. :lol:

[trivas7]

By seeking to eliminate the only system that has more or less worked with humankind, which is Capitalism, you reject what simply is. Man at his ideological core is selfish and greedy. Religion realized this deeply ingrained selfishness and deemed it sin, and tried to develop a structure to remove this from him. You mock it, although you share the same goal and zeal as any religious zealot. The state recognized man's selfishness and developed laws to remove this from him. You mock it, although you share the same goal and nationalistic solidarity to your ideology as any nationalist to his country. Finally Capitalism realized man's selfishness and greed as impossible to separate from him, but instead of subverting his nature, Capitalism upheld it as a tool for progress. You mock it, yet you only want what Capitalism has produced.

The heart of man will never fully embrace communism or fascism or any polar extreme because man is none of those things. The average man wants a job, a home, a wife at his side and children at his feet. The average man is not concerned with politics or liberation, he is concerned about what he can do freely! Man wants liberty to accomplish all that his nature desires, and through this will come equality.

Indeed, communism is the philosophical denial of human nature and the objectivity of her economic requirements.

[Ocean Seal]

After playing this charade, I think I've wasted my time here long enough. I've thought it proper to post it here considering the circumstances,

I am a student at Hebrew University in Jerusalem. I am from the United States and I am studying Political Science and Economics. I've been here for the last several days gathering information for a paper on how the Left thinks and how it's general demeanor is, and you've all supplied a great deal of information for my analysis.

You're all so easily fooled by cheap words and simple word tricks that I find it amazing that you haven't been penetrated by anyone on the right wing. All it took for me to win someone over was playing on the the typical Marxist's unquenchable thirst for acceptance and uniformity.

Do you want to know the reason why your precious ideologies will never work, even though you scream it all the louder from your ideological pulpits? It is your extreme chauvinism and lack of an acceptance for alternative views. You demand uniformity in everything, you demand an acceptance which is simply incompatible with human existence.

By seeking to eliminate the only system that has more or less worked with humankind, which is Capitalism, you reject what simply is. Man at his ideological core is selfish and greedy. Religion realized this deeply ingrained selfishness and deemed it sin, and tried to develop a structure to remove this from him. You mock it, although you share the same goal and zeal as any religious zealot. The state recognized man's selfishness and developed laws to remove this from him. You mock it, although you share the same goal and nationalistic solidarity to your ideology as any nationalist to his country. Finally Capitalism realized man's selfishness and greed as impossible to separate from him, but instead of subverting his nature, Capitalism upheld it as a tool for progress. You mock it, yet you only want what Capitalism has produced.

You are all fools. Ideologically swept off your feet you have forsaken what is and replaced it with what you believe the world should be. You are just as ideologically blind and malicious as the Fascists of the 20th century. You, who once saw great promise for mankind now only see the potential of humankind to a mere unit of production, something to become one with and then to be cast aside, something to be speculated and manipulated.

The heart of man will never fully embrace communism or fascism or any polar extreme because man is none of those things. The average man wants a job, a home, a wife at his side and children at his feet. The average man is not concerned with politics or liberation, he is concerned about what he can do freely! Man wants liberty to accomplish all that his nature desires, and through this will come equality.

For the rest of these discussions I leave to members of this community. I would like to thank all of you who had discussions with me for your contributions.
I stopped reading there. The human nature response is overrated no? Capitalism does not work my friend, ask anyone who works and they'll tell you enough troubles to fill volumes of an encyclopedia.

Also what is with this capitalistic bullshit?
Capitalism the only system which has ever worked?
Reactionaries think that capitalism is the only system which has ever been around?
Metternich is disappoint son.
9th-15th Centuries (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Feudalism)

[Revolution starts with U]

It's funny because most of his responses on other threads are "ya, you tell'em" or "oh this is good." I have yet to find him making any actual arguments...
Can't wait to read the paper :thumbup1:

[danyboy27]

Indeed, communism is the philosophical denial of human nature and the objectivity of her economic requirements.


on the contrary my friend, communism is the understanding and acceptation of human nature.

Everybody want power, but the burden of power is too big to be put on the shoulder of 1 or a fews men, that precisely why power must be shared more evenly.

if there must be men(or women) of power, they should be accountable for their actions, beccause otherwise the shit will hit the fan when they will be fucking things up.

Capitalism on the other hand is the denial of human nature beccause it assume that a single or a fews can have the ultimate power in their hand and do a damn good job.

Capitalism is nothing more nothing less than a romantiic modern view of the hubermelsh, the belief that there are peoples out there bound by the duty of making the economy work, bound take care of their employee, the perfect human being, the genius who always do the responsable things with the amount of power that is allocated to him to make the world better.

If such thing existed, hoo boy life wouldnt be great for everyones?

[RGacky3]

Democratic Capitalism does a pretty fair job of arranging the world to both cater to the nature of man as well as cut down on overall brutality.


As exemplified by the United States :).

BTW, I would put quotes around "democratic."


You are right there. And when man is concerned with liberation is almost always for personal liberation.


Which is exactly what socialism is all about.


Everybody want power, but the burden of power is too big to be put on the shoulder of 1 or a fews men, that precisely why power must be shared more evenly.

if there must be men(or women) of power, they should be accountable for their actions, beccause otherwise the shit will hit the fan when they will be fucking things up.

Capitalism on the other hand is the denial of human nature beccause it assume that a single or a fews can have the ultimate power in their hand and do a damn good job.

Capitalism is nothing more nothing less than a romantiic modern view of the hubermelsh, the belief that there are peoples out there bound by the duty of making the economy work, bound take care of their employee, the perfect human being, the genius who always do the responsable things with the amount of power that is allocated to him to make the world better.

If such thing existed, hoo boy life wouldnt be great for everyones?

I've honestly been very impressed by your posts lately, I honestly could not have said it better myself.

[Bud Struggle]

I've honestly been very impressed by your posts lately, I honestly could not have said it better myself.

That's pretty scary dany. :D

[danyboy27]

That's pretty scary dany. :D

book change lives.

economic and social reality are about 2 things: power and the nature of human beings.

this is really that simple.

[28350]

if his goal is to come up with something called Atlas shrugged 2.0, then its gonna be a failure.

http://www.angryflower.com/atlass.gif

[Kotze]

You're all so easily fooled by cheap words and simple word tricks that I find it amazing that you haven't been penetrated by anyone on the right wing.I'm not that kind of person who makes a quick decision when it comes to such a thing, but please don't leave yet. :o
Man at his ideological core is selfish and greedy.This belief is compatible with wanting a society with much less inequality:

1. In the short run, a very equal income distribution makes people more happy (argument from decreasing marginal utitily of income).

2. When we also consider that stuff has to be produced and that incentives matter, it still doesn't follow that the more unequal the income is, the stronger the incentives get. It only works within limits.

At the low end, consider students who work by the side as little as necessary to get by because they want to focus on studying and getting good grades. Lowering pay can result in them working more. At the high end, consider a programmer who is hard to replace because of his intimate knowledge of the special software used by the firm. It's hard today to find people with understanding of the ancient programming language COBOL, but many banks and other institutions that have been around for some time use it. So if that crucial programmer guy thinks of retiring early, paying too well can cause him to quit earlier.

3. There are natural resources which exist where they are not because of human activities, so you can tax the shit out of those extracting them, it doesn't make these companies with their specialized tools move to tax havens where they have no use for them.

4. A special note must be made here about parcels of land. A big part of the wealth of some land owners comes from human activities that happen around it. Getting money from land owners with a tax that targets that works very well. Such a tax doesn't look at the income level of land owners, but given the concentration of land ownership and that such a tax can hardly be shifted onto tenants (precisely because we assume that land owners are usually egoistical and motivated to get as much money as they can from their tenants, whether you tax them or not), it's a tax that reduces inequality in wealth.

5. I guess socialists and Miseans both agree that patent protection creates artificial scarcity and that this generates an income that usually goes to people who already are very rich. Patents also limit your freedom if you have an idea that somebody already patented and it gets very bureaucratic when partially patented ideas by different people build on each other.

If patents disappeared, there would still be reason for businessmen to innovate. Since advantages from innovations can't be copied in an instant even if you understand that innovation well, there is an automatic time-limited monopoly advantage much shorter in duration than patents yet somewhat similar. This incentive mechanism is absent when the means of production are collectively owned. If the means of production are privately owned in a world without patents you still have the problem that people who don't own means of production specific to their ideas may have too little incentive to develop their ideas further. So under either system I prefer a public funding approach to research and innovation with research grants and prizes instead of patents.

6. Similar things to point 5 regarding artificial scarcity and concentration of wealth in conglomerates can be said about copyright, though putting patents and copyright under the same banner of "intellectual property" is very misleading, because copyright has some different problems: After all you can still write novels with similar plots to existing ones without infringing on someone's copyright. Copyright is used as a legal tool against critics who want to show big parts of the copyrighted material, Scientology did that with leaked manuals for instance. Schoolbook publishers make devious use of their copyright by refusing to print old versions of their books and issuing new versions where the main difference is that they shift around things a bit, so instructing students gets either very annoying or everybody must get the newest edition. Making that stuff freely available instead levels the playing field for students from low-income households.

Producing what is under copyright today should not be left completely to unpaid volunteers, so again I favour public funding here.

FINAL WORDS OF WISDOM
Someone reading this might at this point believe that this is as a list of exceptions and that whoever wrote this might still otherwise be a free-market person.

I see rather something very usual at work here. It's like with an argument by some small-government types about traffic regulation. Why should I be forced to take a driver's test and to buy insurance? If I have an accident that's my problem. This argument sounds convincing as long as we only think about driving on empty roads.

Ultimately there are too many externalities in general for individualist approaches to work well and whatever fancy beliefs people might entertain about themselves being rugged individualists, the increasing division of labour over the centuries has made us more dependent on each other, not less.



Phew! I think next time a Misean visits I will just link to this post.
It's funny because most of his responses on other threads are "ya, you tell'em" or "oh this is good." I have yet to find him making any actual arguments...If he got rep points by getting thanked here 63 times in just a few days and all that for his yayoutellems that rather proves his point about thirst for acceptance and uniformity around here don't you think? :closedeyes:

[renzo_novatore]

If he got rep points by getting thanked here 63 times in just a few days and all that for his yayoutellems that rather proves his point about thirst for acceptance and uniformity around here don't you think?


If I were to do that at the von mises forums, I'd get thanked a lot also.

"Yeah, leftists suck!" "Oh those idiots just don't understand economics!" "The free market solves everything!" Why I'd be the most popular person there! It's actually quite different here, because on the one hand there is only ONE viewpoint at the mises forums - while here there are stalinists, maoists, trots, left marxists, anarcho-syndicalists, anarcho-communists, etc. Actually I would say that we promote diversity.

I mean I could say: "Fuck maoists - those bureaucratic state capitalistic bob avakian cultists who think they're all revolutionary!" Or "Fuck trotsky - that prick would've sent everyone to the gulags like Stalin did!" Not everyone would thank my post for that, while some would. So yeah - there's a lot of different views and an entire lack of uniformity, imo.

But - oh wait - what about capitalists? There aren't a lot of capitalists on these forums?
Well yeah - there's also not a lot fascists either. I'm not entirely tolerant for their views either. Although with capitalists it is a bit different - they're just generally misinformed while fascists are generally hateful human beings. But then again these are people who think that starving single moms would be a-okay under the free market - it'd be ridiculous for someone to say that I am all about uniformity and a thirst for acceptance if I would call that person a dick.

[trivas7]

Capitalism on the other hand is the denial of human nature beccause it assume that a single or a fews can have the ultimate power in their hand and do a damn good job.

OTC, capitalism works because no one individual dictates in a market.


Capitalism is nothing more nothing less than a romantiic modern view of the hubermelsh, the belief that there are peoples out there bound by the duty of making the economy work, bound take care of their employee, the perfect human being, the genius who always do the responsable things with the amount of power that is allocated to him to make the world better.

Agreed; if one believes that individuals are sovereign and are capable of managing their own economic affairs one indeed is a romantic.

[danyboy27]

OTC, capitalism works because no one individual dictates in a market.

Capitalism fail beccause we dont control the market has a collective.

and you are right, no individual dictate the market, a fews thousand only.
that a thousand of people who are unaccountable for their action.




Agreed; if one believes that individuals are sovereign and are capable of managing their own economic affairs one indeed is a romantic.
But that what capitalism is all about bro.

[RED DAVE]

After ... contributions.In the immortal words uttered by John Gielgud in Arthur, "Go screw yourself."

RED DAVE

[Tommy4ever]

Please, please post your paper. :D

We'd all love to read it. I'm sure that when we've seen your argument laid out in front of us we will be able to address your point of view better.

[trivas7]

But that what capitalism is all about bro.
Exactly the point, danyboy.

[danyboy27]

Exactly the point, danyboy.

and you dont see a problem with that?

this is precisely what wrong with the whole system.

Romanticism isnt a science and its not logical, and any system based on it will be inherently instable.

[graffic]

The heart of man will never fully embrace communism or fascism or any polar extreme because man is none of those things. The average man wants a job, a home, a wife at his side and children at his feet. The average man is not concerned with politics or liberation, he is concerned about what he can do freely! Man wants liberty to accomplish all that his nature desires, and through this will come equality.

What is human nature then? Since you are an expert on what "man" is, enlighten me on "mans true nature" and why you are so sure you know what it is.

Where is your precious "liberty" for man in capitalism? The liberty to get fucked over by the hegemony of capital.

[Iraultzaile Ezkerreko]

What is human nature then? Since you are an expert on what "man" is, enlighten me on "mans true nature" and why you are so sure you know what it is.

Where is your precious "liberty" for man in capitalism? The liberty to get fucked over by the hegemony of capital.

Judging by your "center-left" moniker, you vote for the Labor Party. Wonder how long until you stop using "revolutionary" rhetoric and become just another New Labor neo-liberal or actually join an organization with practices and positions which actually match the rhetoric.

[graffic]

I voted Labour in 2010 UK elections for a number of reasons. Mainly because i reject the centre-right narrative on how to cut the "deficit". But i hate partisan politics and am suspicious of dogmatic marxist-leninists/other authoritarian tendencies on left for obvious reasons.

[Iraultzaile Ezkerreko]

I voted Labour in 2010 UK elections for a number of reasons. Mainly because i reject the centre-right narrative on how to cut the "deficit". But i hate partisan politics and am suspicious of dogmatic marxist-leninists/other authoritarian tendencies on left for obvious reasons.

But you reject revolutionary politics? Yet you attempt to talk like a revolutionary? It is not necessary to be dogmatic in order to be a Marxist, however, it is necessary to be revolutionary.

[Che a chara]

Where has the beast gone ? Is he not returning to the scene of his crime ?

[Iraultzaile Ezkerreko]

Where has the beast gone ? Is he not returning to the scene of his crime ?

There is a reason he lied about his beliefs. He knew he couldn't hold his own if he legitimately engaged us from the beginning.

[robbo203]

The heart of man will never fully embrace communism or fascism or any polar extreme because man is none of those things. The average man wants a job, a home, a wife at his side and children at his feet. The average man is not concerned with politics or liberation, he is concerned about what he can do freely! Man wants liberty to accomplish all that his nature desires, and through this will come equality.

For the rest of these discussions I leave to members of this community. I would like to thank all of you who had discussions with me for your contributions.


Nice. Having pinnned you capitalist theses to the door, Martin Luther style, you scuttle off to your academic bolthole, doubtless content with the self delusion that you have somehow delivered a crushing body blow to the communist worldview - assuming you even know what that entails, that is. Somehow this rambling and painfully cliched critique of yours does not fill me with great confidence that you do. It seems to me that if you were clearly convinced in what you say, you would have the integrity and courage of your convictions to stay put and fight your own corner. Slinking off like a thief in the night suggests otherwise. Oh well, it take all types like they say

[Bud Struggle]

There is a reason he lied about his beliefs. He knew he couldn't hold his own if he legitimately engaged us from the beginning.


You don't have to be Revolutionary to dislike Capitalism or not believe in human nature.

[Che a chara]

He's probably been expelled from his university after submitting such a piss poor 'academic and analytic theses' and has no use of the faculty Internet to reply.

[Kotze]

He knew he couldn't hold his own if he legitimately engaged us from the beginning.Ya, you tell'em.


It looks like

this thread was too much

"creative destruction"

for him to handle.

:cool:

Y E E E E E E E A :reda::blackA::reda::blackA::reda::blackA::reda: H ! ! ! 1

[Ele'ill]

You don't have to be Revolutionary to dislike Capitalism

We're not going to pick out the bad elements of capitalism- reform doesn't work. To get rid of these undesirable elements in our world we need to get rid of the system of allowance. If you had a website frequently opening in place of your home page that would load trojans and other viri why would you be content with continuously getting rid of the trojans and other viri. You'd get rid of the daemon that's causing the homepage switch.





or not believe in human nature.

What?

[Bud Struggle]

We're not going to pick out the bad elements of capitalism- reform doesn't work. To get rid of these undesirable elements in our world we need to get rid of the system of allowance. If you had a website frequently opening in place of your home page that would load trojans and other viri why would you be content with continuously getting rid of the trojans and other viri. You'd get rid of the daemon that's causing the homepage switch.

I was pointing out there are a lot of Social Democrats and reformists around that think otherwise. And maybe the results won't be as spectacular as those of a Revolution but they will be surer and long lasting.

I personally wouldn't mind a fairer world and a better society--but I think that Revolution is such a crap shoot that it isn't worth the risk.

[danyboy27]

I was pointing out there are a lot of Social Democrats and reformists around that think otherwise. And maybe the results won't be as spectacular as those of a Revolution but they will be surer and long lasting.

I personally wouldn't mind a fairer world and a better society--but I think that Revolution is such a crap shoot that it isn't worth the risk.

Reagan destroyed over 40 year of labour progress in a fews year.

Same for Quebec, it took 1 Quebec prime minister to destroy our health care system in my province.

social democrat can try, and should, but i am not making too much illusion about their capabilites.

[Scary Monster]

they make sweeping generalizations of all of their opponents

Not only that, but he's judging all leftists based upon observations of one internet forum, which is pretty funny

[Amphictyonis]

I'm a gypsy from the planet Zicon. This thread is our leader!

[Amphictyonis]

OTC, capitalism works because no one individual dictates in a market.

No, just a handful of communist banker billionaires.



Agreed; if one believes that individuals are sovereign and are capable of managing their own economic affairs one indeed is a romantic.

Individuals are sovereign under capitalism? I suppose that depends on your relation to the means of production don't you? Try working in the real world as a wage slave for a decade and tell me how 'sovereign' you feel. There is no sovereignty in the master slave relationship. Only difference between capitalism and chattel slavery is under capitalism we can quit one master and choose another. Chattel slaves could buy their freedom as well which is tantamount to trying to start your own business. It rarely happens and not every human one earth can own their own business. There will always be slaves under capitalism. That my friend is not a system of sovereignty.

[L.A.P.]

Indeed, communism is the philosophical denial of human nature and the objectivity of her economic requirements.

Your idea of human nature has been refuted, proven wrong, and has never existed. You base this off your observations of humans acting like capitalists in a capitalist system, and that's all you've seen but yet fail to consider that human act different in different systems. You want to know what human nature is? Humans by nature adapt to their social conditions. Also, I know you will use the incentive argument so preemptive rebuttal to that; the main motivations for humans is autonomy, mastery, and purpose, not incentive, and this is proven by nearly every scientific study on human motivation. It seems that Libertarians are no sociologists.

[Amphictyonis]

Your idea of human nature has been refuted, proven wrong, and has never existed. You base this off your observations of humans acting like capitalists in a capitalist system, and that's all you've seen but yet fail to consider that human act different in different systems. You want to know what human nature is? Humans by nature adapt to their social conditions. Also, I know you will use the incentive argument so preemptive rebuttal to that; the main motivations for humans is autonomy, mastery, and purpose, not incentive, and this is proven by nearly every scientific study on human motivation. It seems that Libertarians are no sociologists.

Z-eU5xZW7cU

Both greed (self interest) and altruism exist. The question is which trait should we base our society on?

[Magón]

Not only that, but he's judging all leftists based upon observations of one internet forum, which is pretty funny

Well duh! Everyone knows RevLeft is the major hub of Radical Leftist conversation and planning when it comes to every Leftist group out there! :laugh:

[L.A.P.]

I think this is how the OP imagined how his "speech" would go.

7gwjRqpwQLo

[trivas7]

Your idea of human nature has been refuted, proven wrong, and has never existed.
I never propounded what human nature is.

[trivas7]

No, just a handful of communist banker billionaires.

Now there's an oxymoron.


Individuals are sovereign under capitalism? I suppose that depends on your relation to the means of production don't you? Try working in the real world as a wage slave for a decade and tell me how 'sovereign' you feel. There is no sovereignty in the master slave relationship. Only difference between capitalism and chattel slavery is under capitalism we can quit one master and choose another. Chattel slaves could buy their freedom as well which is tantamount to trying to start your own business. It rarely happens and not every human one earth can own their own business. There will always be slaves under capitalism. That my friend is not a system of sovereignty.
I pity you for thinking yourself a slave.

[graffic]

But you reject revolutionary politics? Yet you attempt to talk like a revolutionary? It is not necessary to be dogmatic in order to be a Marxist, however, it is necessary to be revolutionary.

A revolution is like throwing a pack of cards in the air and hoping they all land in the correct order. I think Marxists who ramble on about "false" and "correct" consciousnesses are dogmatic. I'm not as cynical as Marxists are about neo-liberalism.

[L.A.P.]

I never propounded what human nature is.

You said it's the philosophical denial of human nature and I explained to you why it isn't. Plus, everyone knows what you mean when you mention human nature when arguing against communism so I refuted it and if not then please elaborate what you meant by "human nature".

[Tommy4ever]

I'm not sure if this has been posted already, but here is what the OP posted in the 'changing ideologies' thread:


I'm still trying to hammer out my beliefs without getting much into the -isms and -ists, so to speak.

I am wholly against Authoritarianism because I believe it replaces one oppressive economic system (Capitalism) with an even more oppressive social system. So I am wholly a believer in Libertarian and Anarchist beliefs.

Untill I've formed my own opinions for myself, I've decided to settle upon Syndicalist.

In a previous life I believed in the right wing republicanism of my parents and grandparents.

D'you think this was him winning us over? :rolleyes:

[Princess Luna]

After playing this charade, I think I've wasted my time here long enough. I've thought it proper to post it here considering the circumstances,

I am a student at Hebrew University in Jerusalem. I am from the United States and I am studying Political Science and Economics. I've been here for the last several days gathering information for a paper on how the Left thinks and how it's general demeanor is, and you've all supplied a great deal of information for my analysis.

You're all so easily fooled by cheap words and simple word tricks that I find it amazing that you haven't been penetrated by anyone on the right wing. All it took for me to win someone over was playing on the the typical Marxist's unquenchable thirst for acceptance and uniformity.

Do you want to know the reason why your precious ideologies will never work, even though you scream it all the louder from your ideological pulpits? It is your extreme chauvinism and lack of an acceptance for alternative views. You demand uniformity in everything, you demand an acceptance which is simply incompatible with human existence.

By seeking to eliminate the only system that has more or less worked with humankind, which is Capitalism, you reject what simply is. Man at his ideological core is selfish and greedy. Religion realized this deeply ingrained selfishness and deemed it sin, and tried to develop a structure to remove this from him. You mock it, although you share the same goal and zeal as any religious zealot. The state recognized man's selfishness and developed laws to remove this from him. You mock it, although you share the same goal and nationalistic solidarity to your ideology as any nationalist to his country. Finally Capitalism realized man's selfishness and greed as impossible to separate from him, but instead of subverting his nature, Capitalism upheld it as a tool for progress. You mock it, yet you only want what Capitalism has produced.

You are all fools. Ideologically swept off your feet you have forsaken what is and replaced it with what you believe the world should be. You are just as ideologically blind and malicious as the Fascists of the 20th century. You, who once saw great promise for mankind now only see the potential of humankind to a mere unit of production, something to become one with and then to be cast aside, something to be speculated and manipulated.

The heart of man will never fully embrace communism or fascism or any polar extreme because man is none of those things. The average man wants a job, a home, a wife at his side and children at his feet. The average man is not concerned with politics or liberation, he is concerned about what he can do freely! Man wants liberty to accomplish all that his nature desires, and through this will come equality.

For the rest of these discussions I leave to members of this community. I would like to thank all of you who had discussions with me for your contributions.
so communism and fascism are too extreme and people would never embrace them , yet the idea that all you need to do is remove "big government" and somehow a magic-force called "the free market" will transform the earth into a utopian paradise of innovation is 100% rational and not extreme , and people every were will jump at the chance to to pay for things like fire protection. :rolleyes:

[REVLEFT'S BIEGGST MATSER TROL]

Well done OP,

A expose on the soul of man, and its opposition to collectivism worthy of John Galt.

[kalu]

It is your extreme chauvinism and lack of an acceptance for alternative views.

Oh I'm sorry, Mr. Accept-Capitalism-Or-I'll-Fuck-Your-Third-World-Shit-Up. Do you even have a critique of imperialism, or does that object not even appear in your infantile discourse about "free choice"?:rolleyes:


And f your "average man." Your appeal to such a subject has effectively abolished the civil existence of half the population (not to mention queers). Thanks for sending more supporters to the Left!

[Amphictyonis]

Now there's an oxymoron.

The point was, a handful of capitalist billionaires control the political and economic system. I only said communist bankers because thats what you right wing fools seriously think.


I pity you for thinking yourself a slave.

Don't pity me for being stuck in wage slavery pity yourself for having Stockholm Syndrome. You're obviously young and full of petty bourgeois idealism. A few years working in shitty conditions will fix that right up for you. A few asshole landlords will do the trick. A couple months on unemployment eating top ramen with no electricity may set you straight? Never going to happen because you have whats called 'a privileged life'. Thats what keeps you from seeing the viability of socialism. You're quite comfortable now. Why change it?

Anyhow you're trolling and I'm all out of food.

[NGNM85]

Incidentally, I don't remember being polled when this fellow was compiling his definitive analysis of the radical Left.

[Pretty Flaco]

What I'd like to know is how you can base a legitimate research paper off of an internet forum? Fuck, if I was a professor I wouldn't take a paper with that as a source.

[balaclava]

After playing this charade.

I wonder why you needed to play a charade. I wonder why any member of this forum who isn’t red to the core is ‘restricted.’

And why have you got more rep points that me?

[Pretty Flaco]

I wonder why you needed to play a charade. I wonder why any member of this forum who isn’t red to the core is ‘restricted.’

And why have you got more rep points that me?

I wouldn't say that's completely true, although I understand where you're coming from. Hell, I think a good amount of what people try to say on here is bullshit, mostly because it's reiterated rhetoric from the fucking 1920's.

I would call myself staunchly socialist (or at least pro-worker) but does that mean I accept everything that some leftist party throws out as gospel? Well hell no, in fact I often have trouble believing that some people on here (particularly some of the stalinists) aren't just people roleplaying as stalin or mao in their posts just for fun!

[#FF0000]

I wonder why you needed to play a charade. I wonder why any member of this forum who isn’t red to the core is ‘restricted.’


Because of trolls, basically.

imo anyone who considers themselves a revolutionary socialist should be allowed to post on the main forum.

[L.A.P.]

A revolution is like throwing a pack of cards in the air and hoping they all land in the correct order.

Yeah like peaceful protests and voting for the Democratic Party has and ever will work. Typical Liberal

[#FF0000]

Yeah like peaceful protests and voting for the Democratic Party has and ever will work. Typical Liberal

It depends on what you mean by "works". If you think setting up a relatively nice social welfare system while simultaneously bombng the shit out of people across the planet is progress, then the Democrats are for you if you can deal with disappointment.

[L.A.P.]

It depends on what you mean by "works". If you think setting up a relatively nice social welfare system while simultaneously bombng the shit out of people across the planet is progress, then the Democrats are for you if you can deal with disappointment.

Which is why I stopped being a Liberal.

[PigmerikanMao]

I read this guy's post and quite frankly was a little put off that he thought he would be able to master marxist theory and practice from a week on an internet forum for his "paper." I just dismissed him really. Damn, these responses are funny though. Kepp 'em coming!

:laugh:

[Revolution starts with U]

Well... I for one hope he got his lulz :drool:

[Witan]

It is your extreme chauvinism and lack of an acceptance for alternative views. You demand uniformity in everything, you demand an acceptance which is simply incompatible with human existence.This? Coming from a Mises fanboy? Oh, the irony is killing me.


By seeking to eliminate the only system that has more or less worked with humankind, which is Capitalism, you reject what simply is.Many throughout history have rejected what "simply is". For most of history, racism, sexism, aristocratic privilege, etc. simply "were".


Man at his ideological core is selfish and greedy.Man, at his core, is many things. He isn't wholly greedy, nor wholly selfless. He isn't wholly bad, nor wholly good.


Finally Capitalism realized man's selfishness and greed as impossible to separate from him, but instead of subverting his nature, Capitalism upheld it as a tool for progress.The same could be said to uphold racism, or sexism, or slavery, etc. etc.


You mock it, yet you only want what Capitalism has produced.Replace "Capitalism" with "the institution of slavery" and I'm sure the exact same thing was said to abolitionists.


You are all fools. Ideologically swept off your feet you have forsaken what is and replaced it with what you believe the world should be.As have all revolutionaries throughout history. Some failed. Others were successful and shaped the society we have now.


You are just as ideologically blind and malicious as the Fascists of the 20th century.I was wondering when that word was going to come up.


The average man wants a job, a home, a wife at his side and children at his feet. The average man is not concerned with politics or liberation...I'm sure this described the average German from 1933-1939. History shows the consequences of that all too clearly.


Man wants liberty to accomplish all that his nature desiresYes! So then......why do you support capitalism again? If you truly believe capitalism = freedom, then I've got a bridge to sell you....


This guy has got to be a troll. If not, he's just sad.

[Thug Lessons]

Because of trolls, basically.

imo anyone who considers themselves a revolutionary socialist should be allowed to post on the main forum.

What if you're both red to the core and a troll?

[Blackscare]

What if you're both red to the core and a troll?

Then you'd be this guy:


http://orientalreview.org/wp-content/uploads/2010/11/Trotsky.jpg

[Red Bayonet]

Haha! YOU'RE the fool! Cuz I'm a Hezbolla undercover operative at Hebrew U in Jerusalem, ferreting out people like you!