36% Of Americans View Socialism Favorably

[Rakhmetov]

Tea party activists are fascists.

As for socialism, it’s viewed favorably by 36% of Americans (http://www.gallup.com/poll/125645/socialism-viewed-positively-americans.aspx), a fact which will just make Teabaggers even angrier and crazier.

http://firedoglake.com/2011/01/18/new-washington-postabc-poll-americans-view-tea-party-less-favorably-than-russia-socialism/

[Jimmie Higgins]

For people under 30, it's about 1/3 favoring "socialism" and 1/3 not sure and 1/3 favoring capitalism which is an even more stunning finding IMO. The "under 30" poll was done before the 2008 election and the one you post was done in 2009-10 so I think it also demonstrates that a sizable chunk of the population is left of the Democrats (because "socialism according to these polls can be anything from what we call socialism to dem-soc to just capitalism with a robust "safety net") and has remained so through the rise of the tea-parties. So when people say "Obama overreached" and the population "shifted back to the right" you can point out that even after the rise of the tea party 1/3 of Americans still view "socialism" favorably whereas despite the funding and air-time on FOX News, only about 21% of Americans say they view the tea-party favorably (even less percentages when they poll specific policies supported by tea-partiers).

[ed miliband]

...and 95% of Americans view small business positively, 86% view free enterprise positively, 81% view entrepreneurship positively, 61% view capitalism positively... 58% view socialism negatively.

To the vast majority of the minority that view socialism positively socialism more than likely means some social welfare programs and a "mixed economy", so not really actually, y'know, socialism.

[Proukunin]

the one thing I hate about tea partiers and republicans is that they constantly use fascism and socialism on the same terms, as if they represent the same thing. Thats what we need to change man. Thats a bunch of bullshit lies. Like infowars.com and alex jones, they use the words fascism and communism together as if they both have the same meaning.

FUCK THE TEA PARTY!

[Queercommie Girl]

Well, some elements of Stalinism do seem like fascism, even if it's on a different economic basis. But the superstructure is similar. There is no real democratic rights, freedom of speech, assembly, press etc.

Which is why I am Trotskyist-leaning and often would rather work with genuine left reformist socialists than with Stalinists.

[HEAD ICE]

Given that in America "socialism" is a synonymous with "a government" I'm surprised the number isn't lareger.

[Frosty Weasel]

I don't see this number as being true.

[Nothing Human Is Alien]

the one thing I hate about tea partiers and republicans is that they constantly use fascism and socialism on the same terms, as if they represent the same thing.

The Tea Party is a National-Syndicalist ("fascist") movement.

National-Syndicalism is nationalist, nativist and patriotic in the extreme. Thus the Tea Party denounces things alien to the "national culture," from immigrants from Latin America to Islam to Presidents born in Hawaii with a different shade of skin than the first 43.

Of course this includes even the German Nazism and Italian Fascism with which it shares so many features. Thus we end up with talking head Glenn Beck denouncing "the rise of fascism," despite being an ultra-rightist himself.

It's no coincidence that the Tea Party arose at the same time that capitalism entered its biggest crisis since the Great Depression. The working class is feeling the effects of the crisis and beginning to look for a way out of this mess.

So in the present the Tea Party serves as a sort of reserve of shock troops. If and when the ruling class decides it needs them, the Tea Party will be mobilized, promoted, strengthened.

Note well though, the answer to this all is not some sort of "Anti-Fascism" that binds the working class with a section of its own exploiters in the name of defending capitalist democracy. The only way out is through a working class revolution that rids the world of the capitalist system that gave rise to this whole mess.

[the last donut of the night]

Well, some elements of Stalinism do seem like fascism, even if it's on a different economic basis. But the superstructure is similar. There is no real democratic rights, freedom of speech, assembly, press etc.


Fascism is something very specific -- you can't call anything what doesn't sit with you well fascism. Many countries today have no democratic rights, freedom of speech and assembly, or the like, but they're not fascist. Now if they "seem" to be fascist, that's different, but now we get into semantics. It's a slippery road likening Stalin's USSR and fascism together -- even as weakly as you do it -- because it's been something the right-wing has done for ages.

[Red Commissar]

This poll has been posted here before and as been stated, the poll didn't actually define what socialism is, so to many respondents they may be thinking of regulations and safety nets.

I mean it would be nice to see at least a move away from capitalism but I don't see that happening in the United States. There's still a cushy love of "small" businesses, and various bodies (media, religious institutions, tea baggers, etc.) which constantly extol the virtues of "Free Market" principles.

[Queercommie Girl]

Fascism is something very specific -- you can't call anything what doesn't sit with you well fascism. Many countries today have no democratic rights, freedom of speech and assembly, or the like, but they're not fascist. Now if they "seem" to be fascist, that's different, but now we get into semantics. It's a slippery road likening Stalin's USSR and fascism together -- even as weakly as you do it -- because it's been something the right-wing has done for ages.

I didn't directly call Stalinism "fascist", but this is all just semantics. I said that there are certain elements in Stalinism which appear to be somewhat fascistic, and it is a mistake to blame all of this on "right-wing" propaganda as you seem to do, and not actually explicitly acknowledge some of the fundamental and serious flaws in the Stalinist system itself.

Technically it's true that Stalinism is not fascist, because fascism is economically speaking a form of capitalism, whereas Stalinism economically rested on a non-capitalistic kind of planned economy.

It has nothing to do with what sits well with me or not, because objectively genuine socialism includes full democratic rights, otherwise it's a very distorted form of socialism, at best "semi-socialist".

Personally it's not a system I'd wish to live under since I'm queer which means I will be punished with a prison sentence in a labour camp in a Stalinist state.

[KurtFF8]

This is old news and has been discussed on the Politics section of this site many times. Why does this OP constantly post old news articles that have been discussed as if they are new???!?

[Ocean Seal]

Tea party activists are fascists.

As for socialism, it’s viewed favorably by 36% of Americans (http://www.gallup.com/poll/125645/socialism-viewed-positively-americans.aspx), a fact which will just make Teabaggers even angrier and crazier.

http://firedoglake.com/2011/01/18/new-washington-postabc-poll-americans-view-tea-party-less-favorably-than-russia-socialism/
Sadly its 36% who view social-democracy favorably. The number of people who would be in favor of a revolution is far lower. Most Americans would say why do we want a revolution we have democracy, we are in control of our politicians, and we live in a free country. Class consciousness is far from our reach. In a couple of decades perhaps we might have this scenario, but as of now we revolutionaries are a minority.

[Jimmie Higgins]

Jesus Christ people, what the hell do folks here expect in the US where all "official" parties, pundits, writers, academics, and so on treat even Kensianism as a third-rail most of the time. The fact that even 1/3 of people support "Social Democracy" or reforms in a country where the "opposition" Democrats push charter schools and privatization as "good reforms" is quite a statement about the era we find ourselves in.

1/3 of people (who according to US myth are somehow inherently opposed to "socialism" as part of the "national character") support "socialism" against what the politicians, media, educators, churches, and probably parents have told them for 30 years, is a hell of a thing. That's without us trying, that's without us being very well organized and having a platform to get out viewpoint out there.

I think it shows the potential to actually build something in the country and shows that people are finally figuring out that neoliberalism, despite the hype, doesn't work.

So IMO, the "spontaneous" consciousness of people is actually moving in a favorable direction for us for the first time probably since either the late 90s or early 70s. What we need to do is to try organize out of this generalized dissatisfaction with capitalism and build movements and groups and coalitions that can begin to articulate an opposition in both ideas and action.

People should just keep things like Tunisia in mind. Two months ago if you could go out and talk to people and ask if the regime would collapse and Ben Ali would split the country like Marie Antoinette's head into a basket, I'm sure most would have said it was impossible. Now today not only have people rejected Ben Ali but they rejected keeping his party in place and are even challenging the legitimacy of the new reform interim governmnet. The French Revolution was the same - it took years for people to actually grasp the fact that they were carrying out a Revolution - many held hopes that they could keep the monarchy and just pass some reforms.

This is always the way with revolutions, most people won't be "revolutionaries" until the revolution is essentially inevitable. Spontaneity is important in breaking through the walls that ruling classes construct as in Tunisia, but organization is equally important so that people don't break down the walls just to run into another box so to speak (i.e. following liberals or reformers who want to keep the system in tact when the people can take power themselves).

Yeah things are tough right now, and it's not like the ciris hit and all workers suddenly drew radical conclusions, but it is also one of the best atmospheres I have ever been in for organizing. Just the fact that when you say "capitalism leads to crisis" or "the rich get richer and the poor get poorer" or that there is inequality in the US, no one thinks you're crazy anymore - they actually see these things as empirical facts rather than some loony slogan more fit for the 1910s than our own time.

[Misanthrope]

Quite frankly, this is implying average Americans know what socialism is.

[Bardo]

I'm curious what percentage of the population actually understand socialism. I heard Michelle Bachmann today explaining how Obamacare is the crown jewel of socialism. :laugh:

[The Old Man from Scene 24]

That number will increase over time. People are starting to realize how much the Health Care Bill has helped.

[MellowViper]

35% of which probably don't know what it actually means

"I'm for the government doing things. I'm a socialist"

[Manic Impressive]

I'm not surprised really almost all the yanks I know are further left than the democrats. Although they are all people who have actually left the country at some point in their lives.

[MarxSchmarx]

The Tea Party is a National-Syndicalist ("fascist") movement.

National-Syndicalism is nationalist, nativist and patriotic in the extreme. Thus the Tea Party denounces things alien to the "national culture," from immigrants from Latin America to Islam to Presidents born in Hawaii with a different shade of skin than the first 43.

Of course this includes even the German Nazism and Italian Fascism with which it shares so many features. Thus we end up with talking head Glenn Beck denouncing "the rise of fascism," despite being an ultra-rightist himself.

It's no coincidence that the Tea Party arose at the same time that capitalism entered its biggest crisis since the Great Depression. The working class is feeling the effects of the crisis and beginning to look for a way out of this mess.

So in the present the Tea Party serves as a sort of reserve of shock troops. If and when the ruling class decides it needs them, the Tea Party will be mobilized, promoted, strengthened.

Note well though, the answer to this all is not some sort of "Anti-Fascism" that binds the working class with a section of its own exploiters in the name of defending capitalist democracy. The only way out is through a working class revolution that rids the world of the capitalist system that gave rise to this whole mess.

Well call those people what you will, but "syndicalist" is unfair. They have no basis in the labor movement, have no pretension of representing working class power. They are not even corporatist b/c they think orgnaized labor needs to be smashed altogether and should have no independent voice in anything whatsoever (contrary to the likes of historical "national syndicalists" like Juan Peron).

I can't really speak for the white private sector bureaucrats that make up the Tea Party, but syndicalism, even the rightist variety that is correctly shunned and marginalized by virtually every person who has to work for a living, gives a nod towards worker self-management and empowerment. The American Tea Party can't even bring itself to do that.


35% of which probably don't know what it actually means

"I'm for the government doing things. I'm a socialist" It sounds terrible, until we reflect on what it meant to be a socialist merely 25 years ago. The disastrous effect of cold war propaganda meant that to proclaim yourself a socialist (at least in the global north) meant you embraced bread lines, brainwashed children and censorship and vodka, lots and lots of vodka. Even if your analysis were true (and I kinda doubt it), at least "socialism" now means things like fire departments and paved roads. Frankly I'd be delighted to take the latter connotation as against fur hats.

[Pravda Soyuz]

Most Americans either see socialism as a capitalist society with welfare and public health care(Obama) or fascist/ultra-authoritarian doctrine that seeks to control very aspect of human life.:scared:

However 36% is an improvement, and shows that Cold-War era propaganda is wearing off!

[Idahoan]

Instead of focusing on the fact of percentages, we should focus on their implementation. Therefore instead of asking the why, who's, where's, and such of these surveys, we should instead task ourselves with the use of these [debatable] facts. We as leftists could start trying to inform the public of Socialism and its variant types. Maybe even start counter protests. Instead of focusing on attacking the tea party we could instead focus on increasing our base as leftists of many shades.

[Amphictyonis]

And the other 64% don't know what it is.


pCVwx_rH6wM

[Catma]

Lots of the first 36% don't know what it is, either. That's why this survey doesn't have anything to say about socialism itself. It only really comments on the sorts and amounts of propaganda people swallow.

[GPDP]

Christ, people, I think most of us are aware most Americans, even those responding favorably, do not know what Socialism actually is. However, the fact so many of them even respond favorably to the word, in the USfuckingA of all places, says volumes about that 36%'s dissatisfaction with the status quo from the left.

[Jimmie Higgins]

35% of which probably don't know what it actually means

"I'm for the government doing things. I'm a socialist"


Quite frankly, this is implying average Americans know what socialism is.

You mean most Americans didn't go out of their way to learn about something that both parties says is a dead form of political thought? When their teachers told them socialism is a good idea but impossible due to human nature, most Americans didn't go to the library and read "Capital" and then counter-argue with the teacher the next day? When professors tell students that no academic seriously considers Marxism valuable for anything other than some antiquated but interesting insights into capitalism, their students didn't call up some socialist groups and ask their opinion of the matter?

If we wait for working class people in the US to on their own come to a full understanding of class and socialism, then nothing will ever happen. Even if there is a totally spontaneous revolution (meaning no organization from radicals or organizations set up by radicals) then most people will know they are against the system but will not know what to replace it with. Look at Tunisia, they know they don't want Ben Ali, they know they don't want his party, but beyond that some people are arguing for a new constitution, some for new elections, but really only the radical left is saying, hey, workers can take over the whole thing and run it from community councils.

In the US, the fact that 1/3 or people under 30 tell pollsters that capitalism is not the best system, another 1/3rd view "socialism" favorably and about 1/3 of the total population sees "socialism" as positive is an indication to me of what potential is out there to actually make some inroads in the US working class for the first time since the late 90s or in the 1970s. People don't know what "socialism" means, but this data does tell us that they don't like capitalism as uniformly as even 5 years ago.

[Permanent Revolutionary]

Christ, people, I think most of us are aware most Americans, even those responding favorably, do not know what Socialism actually is. However, the fact so many of them even respond favorably to the word, in the USfuckingA of all places, says volumes about that 36%'s dissatisfaction with the status quo from the left.

I have to agree totally. Sure, they may not know what it means, but this probably means, that many will look into it. And that can never be a bad thing.