NYPD Cops' Training Included an Anti-Muslim Horror Flick

[Sosa]

This month, when a group of New York City police officers showed up for their required counter-terrorism training, they got to watch a movie.


And not just some diddly 20-minute educational film, either. It was a full-length color feature, with more explosions than a Transformers sequel and more blood-splattered victims than an HBO (http://www.villagevoice.com/related/to/Home+Box+Office+Inc.) World War II series.
The bad news was that it was a spectacularly offensive smear of American Muslims.

http://www.villagevoice.com/2011-01-19/columns/nypd-cops-training-included-an-anti-muslim-horror-flick/

[Rakhmetov]

I'm not a cop lover by any means

But are you an apologist for Muslims and their irrational beliefs and acts even those who are non-extremists? Down with all religions!!!

Long live the secular revolution!!!!

[Fawkes]

I'm not a cop lover by any means

But are you an apologist for Muslims and their irrational believes and acts even those who are non-extremists? Down with all religions!!!

Long live the secular revolution!!!!

So we should facilitate and encourage racism against a religious group, which is exactly what the description of the video made it sound like it was doing?

"All of this is sandwiched between a collection of somber talking heads informing us that, while we were sleeping, the international Islamist Jihad that wrought these horrors has set up shop here and is quietly going about its deadly business. This is the final drive in a 1,400-year-old bid for Muslim world domination, we're informed. And while we may think there are some perfectly reasonable Muslim leaders and organizations here in the U.S., that is just more sucker bait sent our way.

"Americans are being told that most of the mainstream Muslim groups are moderate," says the narrator, "when in fact if you look a little closer you'll see a very different reality. One of their primary tactics is deception.""

This is unusual, I can't seem to get images of 1930s Europe out of my head, I wonder why...


Anyway, apparently they've abandoned their old training/recruitment video which I thought was far better:
Hl8D0iX7Q2s

[gorillafuck]

I'm not a cop lover by any means

But are you an apologist for Muslims and their irrational believes and acts even those who are non-extremists? Down with all religions!!!

Long live the secular revolution!!!!
Oh god.

Why is it that some anti-theists can't see how it's different to oppose racism against Muslims and to actually back Islam?

Also, "even those who are non-extremists"? You act like non-extremists are in a minority.

[Clark]

I'm not a cop lover by any means

But are you an apologist for Muslims and their irrational believes and acts even those who are non-extremists? Down with all religions!!!

Long live the secular revolution!!!!

Yeah, let's just shut out every oppressed worker who is part of a religion. That'll surely work. Long live the revolution of a bunch of sectarianists!

Anyways, the CCCP and muslims have a history of co-operation during Lenin's times. Stalin... well, he was Lenin's opposite.


Muslims of Russia…all you whose mosques and prayer houses have been destroyed, whose beliefs and customs have been trampled upon by the tsars and oppressors of Russia: your beliefs and practices, your national and cultural institutions are forever free and inviolate. Know that your rights, like those of all the peoples of Russia, are under the mighty protection of the revolution.
isj.org.uk/index.php4?id=181
(It's worth reading through it)

Consider yourself schooled.

[Tablo]

Militant atheism is such a waste of energy. I can't stand religion, but it really isn't my business if someone believes in fairytales. We should defend these people against profiling based on race and religion.

[~Spectre]

Der Ewige Moslems

[scarletghoul]

I'm not a cop lover by any means

But are you an apologist for Muslims and their irrational believes and acts even those who are non-extremists? Down with all religions!!!

Long live the secular revolution!!!!
what the fuck mate

[Obs]

I'm not a cop lover by any means

But are you an apologist for Muslims and their irrational believes and acts even those who are non-extremists? Down with all religions!!!

Long live the secular revolution!!!!
Allow me to chime in here and add to the multitude of declarations you are to receive stating that this is, in fact, a moronic thing to say.

[Crimson Commissar]

This film sounds pretty insane, and yeah very similar to anti-jew propaganda for WW2 europe.

But really, I just KNOW this is gonna lead to every fucking leftist crying about how muslims are oppressed and we need to defend islam or some shit.

[Widerstand]

But really, I just KNOW this is gonna lead to every fucking leftist crying about how muslims are oppressed and we need to defend islam or some shit.

Believe it or not, the German Resistance against Hitler didn't defend Judaism. But yes, Muslims are oppressed, and Muslims (or rather those perceived to be Muslims - Arabs) are actively and increasingly agitated and discriminated against. It's not hard to see at all.

[gorillafuck]

But really, I just KNOW this is gonna lead to every fucking leftist crying about how muslims are oppressed and we need to defend islam or some shit.
Muslims are demonized in the western world.....

I'd rather be one of the people who, uh, opposes Islamophobia rather than you who whines when people call out racism against Muslims.

[bots]

racism against a religious group

racism against Muslims.

Does not compute.

But yeah that movie seems like it's obviously meant to bait people.

[Robocommie]

Fuck, I just know this is going to turn into a shitstorm that I'm so not in the mood for, but this is precisely why anti-theism is fucking lame. REALLY fucking lame. You want to make yourself an opponent of people whose religious beliefs are not your own, go right ahead. You're just making yourself one more voice of intolerance in a world full of religious intolerance, and you're not going to offer anything new.

Religious freedom and secularism, not closed-minded, asshole paternalist, aggressive atheism.

Also, Mengistu, you're insane. You need a therapist.

[bots]

Fuck, I just know this is going to turn into a shitstorm that I'm so not in the mood for

If you're not in the mood for it why would you get involved? Why would you contribute something that is almost certainly going to fuel said shitstorm? You're silly.

[Robocommie]

If you're not in the mood for it why would you get involved? Why would you contribute something that is almost certainly going to fuel said shitstorm? You're silly.

You're fucking silly. What's the point in making a stand if you're only going to do so when it's pleasant? If something is fucked up you should say so.

[the last donut of the night]

Long live the secular revolution!!!!

fap fap fap fap fap

[gorillafuck]

Does not compute.
Fine, I'll say "bigotry".

[Property Is Robbery]

I'm not a cop lover by any means

But are you an apologist for Muslims and their irrational believes and acts even those who are non-extremists? Down with all religions!!!

Long live the secular revolution!!!!
Do I smell a troll? Or do you really believe that moronic crap you just spewed?

[Savage]

Marx wasn't an Atheist.

[Widerstand]

Does not compute.

But yeah that movie seems like it's obviously meant to bait people.

Actually it does compute, because, as I've said a few posts above yours, Anti-Muslim resentments are projected onto Arabs, which are believed to all be Muslims and be the only Muslims, which in turn translated hated against a religious group into Racism.

[Robocommie]

The bad news was that it was a spectacularly offensive smear of American Muslims. The film is called The Third Jihad. It is 72 minutes of gruesome footage of bombing carnage, frenzied crowds, burning American flags, flaming churches, and seething mullahs. All of this is sandwiched between a collection of somber talking heads informing us that, while we were sleeping, the international Islamist Jihad that wrought these horrors has set up shop here and is quietly going about its deadly business. This is the final drive in a 1,400-year-old bid for Muslim world domination, we're informed. And while we may think there are some perfectly reasonable Muslim leaders and organizations here in the U.S., that is just more sucker bait sent our way.

"Americans are being told that most of the mainstream Muslim groups are moderate," says the narrator, "when in fact if you look a little closer you'll see a very different reality. One of their primary tactics is deception."

The message here is that lurking behind those veils and prayer caps is a secret plan to impose a religious order out of the Dark Ages here in the U.S. The favorite image in The Third Jihad—shown over and over—is an enormous black-and-white Islamic flag flying over the White House (http://www.villagevoice.com/related/to/The+White+House).

http://ddickerson.igc.org/protocols_english.gif

STILL ITS A GOOD THING THAT FOLKS ARE HERE TO REMIND US THAT MUSLIMS ARE THE ENEMY

[Diello]

So we should facilitate and encourage racism against a religious group, which is exactly what the description of the video made it sound like it was doing?

I loathe and despise Islam, but I generally agree with your reaction. An atheist supporting this kind of effort because they're against Islam makes about as much sense as their supporting Nazism because they're against Judaism.

[bots]

Actually it does compute, because, as I've said a few posts above yours, Anti-Muslim resentments are projected onto Arabs, which are believed to all be Muslims and be the only Muslims, which in turn translated hated against a religious group into Racism.

Nope, sorry. Race is not religion. There are white, black, Arab, Chinese, etc. Muslims. Anti-Muslim resentments in the United States and the Western world are (mostly) projected onto Arabs. Anti-Muslim resentments in China would be projected onto Uyghurs. Anti-Muslim resentments in Serbia would be projected onto Bosnians. See? All Muslims, not all Arabs.

[Savage]

Nope, sorry. Race is not religion. There are white, black, Arab, Chinese, etc. Muslims. Anti-Muslim resentments in the United States and the Western world are (mostly) projected onto Arabs. Anti-Muslim resentments in China would be projected onto Uyghurs. Anti-Muslim resentments in Serbia would be projected onto Bosnians. See? All Muslims, not all Arabs.
We're talking about anti-Arab racism specifically in the United States, so yes, it does compute.

[bots]

STILL ITS A GOOD THING THAT FOLKS ARE HERE TO REMIND US THAT MUSLIMS ARE THE ENEMY

Yeah it's a good point. Muslims aren't "the enemy". But there's nothing wrong with criticizing their religion.

[bots]

We're talking about anti-Arab racism specifically in the United States, so yes, it does compute.

Nonetheless, terms should be well defined before any kind of conversation takes place. Muslims /= Arabs. You can't be racist against Muslims. If you want to say Arabs, say Arabs. From the perspective of white, black, or Asian Muslims you would be doing a disservice to the faith they hold dear by not broadening your definition of the term "Muslim" to include them.

[Robocommie]

Yeah it's a good point. Muslims aren't "the enemy". But there's nothing wrong with criticizing their religion.

Bots, I literally don't care what you think about it. I literally have no time to entertain the cultural concerns about some dude posting on his computer, arguing semantics about racism safe in his fucking home, all while an imperialist narrative about the dangers of Islamic extremism is being formed to promote western military aggression.

Seriously. You can fucking spin on it.

[bots]

Bots, I literally don't care what you think about it. I literally have no time to entertain the cultural concerns about some dude posting on his computer, arguing semantics about racism safe in his fucking home, all while an imperialist narrative about the dangers of Islamic extremism is being formed to promote western military aggression.

Seriously. You can fucking spin on it.

You mad?

[Savage]

Nonetheless, terms should be well defined before any kind of conversation takes place. Muslims /= Arabs. You can't be racist against Muslims. If you want to say Arabs, say Arabs. From the perspective of white, black, or Asian Muslims you would be doing a disservice to the faith they hold dear by not broadening your definition of the term "Muslim" to include them.
You obviously misread Widerstand's comment,
Anti-Muslim resentments are projected onto Arabs, which are believed to all be Muslims and be the only Muslims, which in turn translated hated against a religious group into Racism.
Anti-Muslim sentiment is specifically anti-Arab sentiment, particularly in the U.S., and this thread is about Anti-Muslim propaganda in the U.S. which will be projected against Arabs whether they are the only Muslims or not. We're not disagreeing with you, we are saying that anti-Arab racism is inherent in anti-Muslim sentiment.

[bots]

Also how stupid would it seem if I said "Christian" and expected you to think "white person"? Why would you think "Muslim" should mean "Arab"? Seriously who's being the bigot here?

[Robocommie]

You mad?

And thank you for confirming that you're a child.

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_dFR5TPQACKk/TNWSM4fRbPI/AAAAAAAAAW0/rqPJh-nsJyg/s400/tumblr_lbc28dKuhQ1qav6f6.png

[Widerstand]

Nonetheless, terms should be well defined before any kind of conversation takes place. Muslims /= Arabs. You can't be racist against Muslims. If you want to say Arabs, say Arabs. From the perspective of white, black, or Asian Muslims you would be doing a disservice to the faith they hold dear by not broadening your definition of the term "Muslim" to include them.

It may be inexact to use the word racism in that context, and it may be better to use crypto-racism or something, but I think pretty much everyone understood what was meant, and can agree that indeed (in the USA and western Europe, maybe NZ and Australia too) racism against Arabs is indeed "racist practice" against Muslims, though not based on race (then again racism is never based on race because there is no race). It's really just semantic nitpicking for the hell of it.

[Robocommie]

http://site.iugaza.edu.ps/rareer/files/2010/03/orientalism.jpg

Should be required reading for the left...

[bots]

You obviously misread Widerstand's comment,
Anti-Muslim sentiment is specifically anti-Arab sentiment, particularly in the U.S., and this thread is about Anti-Muslim propaganda in the U.S. which will be projected against Arabs whether they are the only Muslims or not. We're not disagreeing with you, we are saying that anti-Arab racism is inherent in anti-Muslim sentiment.

I thought the original intent of the thread was to bring to light an anti-Muslim propaganda piece NYPD officers are shown. I didn't think the movie was anti-Arab.

I understand what you're saying. I live in a western country and every terrorist on tv is a swarthy Muslim guy. However I also live two blocks away from a mosque and I watch people of all races and complexions congregate there. If an NYPD cop saw a bearded white guy wearing a taqiyah would he give him as much shit as a bearded Arabic guy? I doubt it. But he'd probably give that white guy way more grief than he would a clean cut white dude in a suit and tie.

[Savage]

Also how stupid would it seem if I said "Christian" and expected you to think "white person"? Why would you think "Muslim" should mean "Arab"? Seriously who's being the bigot here?
You still don't understand? really? ANTI-ISLAM TRANSLATES INTO ANTI-ARAB RACISM IN THE WORLD BECAUSE PEOPLE ARE STUPID. I am not saying all Muslims are Arabs, I am saying that the majority of the people that aggressively object to Islam are racist against Arabs.

[bots]

You still don't understand? really? ANTI-ISLAM TRANSLATES INTO ANTI-ARAB RACISM IN THE WORLD BECAUSE PEOPLE ARE STUPID. I am not saying all Muslims are Arabs, I am saying that the majority of the people that aggressively object to Islam are racist against Arabs.

Tell that to the fucking Uyghurs that are attacked by Han Chinese.

[Savage]

I thought the original intent of the thread was to bring to light an anti-Muslim propaganda piece NYPD officers are shown. I didn't think the movie was anti-Arab.

I understand what you're saying. I live in a western country and every terrorist on tv is a swarthy Muslim guy. However I also live two blocks away from a mosque and I watch people of all races and complexions congregate there. If an NYPD cop saw a bearded white guy wearing a taqiyah would he give him as much shit as a bearded Arabic guy? I doubt it. But he'd probably give that white guy way more grief than he would a clean cut white dude in a suit and tie.
Yes, I am aware that Islam is, mostly likely the most 'racially' (after all what is a race?) diverse religion, this isn't something that bigots are aware of.

[Robocommie]

You still don't understand? really? ANTI-ISLAM TRANSLATES INTO ANTI-ARAB RACISM IN THE WORLD BECAUSE PEOPLE ARE STUPID. I am not saying all Muslims are Arabs, I am saying that the majority of the people that aggressively object to Islam are racist against Arabs.

I'd actually say it's bigger than just Arabs, though. It's any people in Muslim dominated regions, all of whom are typically in post-colonial states, all of whom are the victims of unflattering, racist depictions. There's nothing wrong with pointing out that attacking a religious group with a single brush is a form of bigotry that should be condemned as such.

To me, the mark of a mature, grown up individual is the ability to understand that human beings within a large group cannot be so blatantly tarred with negative personal characteristics. Isn't that the reason that racism itself is a problem?

[bots]

Yes, I am aware that Islam is, mostly likely the most 'racially' (after all what is a race?) diverse religion, this isn't something that bigots are aware of.

Well why would you talk like a bigot? If THEY don't know that Islam is a racially diverse religion, shouldn't you? And as someone who knows that Islam is a racially diverse religion, don't you think it's stupid to narrowly refer to Muslims as Arabs?

[bots]

I'd actually say it's bigger than just Arabs, though. It's any people in Muslim dominated regions, all of whom are typically in post-colonial states, all of whom are the victims of unflattering, racist depictions. There's nothing wrong with pointing out that attacking a religious group with a single brush is a form of bigotry that should be condemned as such.

To me, the mark of a mature, grown up individual is the ability to understand that human beings within a large group cannot be so blatantly tarred with negative personal characteristics. Isn't that the reason that racism itself is a problem?

Hey now we're getting somewhere.

[L.A.P.]

I'm not a cop lover by any means

But are you an apologist for Muslims and their irrational believes and acts even those who are non-extremists? Down with all religions!!!

Long live the secular revolution!!!!

You fail to see the point.

[Savage]

Well why would you talk like a bigot? If THEY don't know that Islam is a racially diverse religion, shouldn't you? And as someone who knows that Islam is a racially diverse religion, don't you think it's stupid to narrowly refer to Muslims as Arabs?
JESUS CHRIST!!!!ARE YOU REALLY THIS STUPID??? This whole time, my argument has been that there are HUGE amounts of people that are hostile towards Islam because they are racist towards Arabs, I never once said that all Muslims are Arabs, I said this is what racist people think. Are you denying that there is anti-Arab racism? Maybe all anti-Islamic people are just as open minded as you. I'm from Australia, where anti-Islamic (and anti-Arab) sentiment is huge, even though Indonesia is just north of Australia with the largest Muslim population in the world.

[bots]

JESUS CHRIST!!!!ARE YOU REALLY THIS STUPID??? This whole time, my argument has been that there are HUGE amounts of people that are hostile towards Islam because they are racist towards Arabs, I never once said that all Muslims are Arabs, I said this is what racist people think. Are you denying that there is anti-Arab racism? Maybe all anti-Islamic people are just as open minded as you. I'm from Australia, where anti-Islamic (and anti-Arab) sentiment is huge, even though Indonesia is just north of Australia with the largest Muslim population in the world.

That's not an argument. That's a fallacy called argumentum ad populum. Arabs still don't equal Muslims.

[Savage]

that's not an argument. That's a fallacy called argumentum ad populum. Arabs still don't equal muslims.
i never once said they did you cretin.

[the last donut of the night]

guys, have we forgotten the golden rule of the internet?

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_D60xnL33mvQ/SJpOjH8CwcI/AAAAAAAAADc/JcTvNBkxd20/s320/troll.gif

3 pages is long enough for these kinds of threads

[bots]

i never once said they did you cretin.

Yeah well then get your shit together you ding dong.

[Widerstand]

Well why would you talk like a bigot? If THEY don't know that Islam is a racially diverse religion, shouldn't you? And as someone who knows that Islam is a racially diverse religion, don't you think it's stupid to narrowly refer to Muslims as Arabs?

Since it apparently went over your head the first five times:

No one here is referring to Muslims as Arabs.

We are merely making an observation, and what we are observing is that in the USA (and some other countries, such as Western Europe), Anti-Muslim attitudes do dominantly manifest in anti-Arab racism. Therefore it's perfectly justified to call American (and West European) Anti-Muslim attitudes racist, because they are in fact Anti-Arab racism. The average American (or West European) Anti-Muslim doesn't give two cents about Asian Muslims. That's an observable fact.

[Savage]

yeah well then get your shit together you ding dong.
lol.

[Rakhmetov]

Do I smell a troll? Or do you really believe that moronic crap you just spewed?

I'm against Islam, Judaism, KKKhristianity, et al.

Liberate the human mind from religion!!! Long live the revolution!!!!!

http://monotheismevil.blogspot.com/2005/07/gore-vidal-on-monotheism_14.html

[the last donut of the night]

I'm against Islam, Judaism, KKKhristianity, et al.

Liberate the human mind from religion!!! Long live the revolution!!!!!

http://monotheismevil.blogspot.com/2005/07/gore-vidal-on-monotheism_14.html

KKKhristianity? Are you fucking kidding me?

http://www.threadbombing.com/data/media/13/9cyPFQbgCnc6yqxe9AUkyBwgo1_400.jpg

[Crux]

I'm against Islam, Judaism, KKKhristianity, et al.

Liberate the human mind from religion!!! Long live the revolution!!!!!

http://monotheismevil.blogspot.com/2005/07/gore-vidal-on-monotheism_14.html
Still an islamophobe and usefull idiot of the far right I see. What a shame. I thought you were improving.

[Rakhmetov]

Still an islamophobe and usefull idiot of the far right I see. What a shame. I thought you were improving.

And what are you, an Islamophile??? Congratulations, I hope your angel Gabriel leads you through the valley of darkness.

[Obs]

And what are you, an Islamophile??? Congratulations, I hope your angel Gabriel leads you through the valley of darkness.
What are you, an idiot? Congratulations, I hope you fall down a canyon.

[Sosa]

I'm not a cop lover by any means

But are you an apologist for Muslims and their irrational beliefs and acts even those who are non-extremists? Down with all religions!!!

Long live the secular revolution!!!!

Not at all. I'm a strong atheist. But this video is clearly islamophobic. They aren't having a rational discussion of religion or Islam, they are fear mongering.

[Fawkes]

And what are you, an Islamophile??? Congratulations, I hope your angel Gabriel leads you through the valley of darkness.

Honestly, do you not realize how these hatreds manifest themselves in the real world once they leave your thick skull? After 9/11 even Sikhs got killed because people thought they were Muslim (as if killing Muslims would've been any better), that's how this bullshit you're spewing ends up looking in the real world, somewhere you should try going sometime.

[Frosty Weasel]

More than two-thirds of people of Arab descent in the United States are actually Christian.

Don't you think that this might bring retaliation against them too?

(I'm personally of Syrian descent, although not Christian)


And what are you, an Islamophile??? Congratulations, I hope your angel Gabriel leads you through the valley of darkness.Keep digging that hole of yours, eventually you'll stop seeing the top :|

[Crux]

And what are you, an Islamophile??? Congratulations, I hope your angel Gabriel leads you through the valley of darkness.
No, unlike you, I am a marxist. But I hope you stop your trolling and racist ways, inshallah.

[Rakhmetov]

No, unlike you, I am a marxist. But I hope you stop your trolling and racist ways, inshallah.

What! I'm trolling because I have the guts to criticize organized religion! This site has really gone down the tubes if I am unable to express my contempt for religious institutions while you guys defend Christianity and Islam.

[Obs]

What! I'm trolling because I have the guts to criticize organized religion! This site has really gone down the tubes if I am unable to express my contempt for religious institutions while you guys defend Christianity and Islam.
I don't suppose you realise or care that there are enough different doctrines and interpretations of Christianity and Islam to make Marxists look like the Borg?

[Crux]

What! I'm trolling because I have the guts to criticize organized religion! This site has really gone down the tubes if I am unable to express my contempt for religious institutions while you guys defend Christianity and Islam.
You have the "guts" to go with the flow of a racist tide.

[Rakhmetov]

You people like to put words in my mouth that I never uttered, wrote or implied. The fact that I oppose the Muslim faith is misconstrued by many of you to mean that I support lynching the Arab race or those of the Islamic persuasion and
I take the greatest possible exception to such a misconstruction. Long live the revolution!

[Crux]

You people like to put words in my mouth that I never uttered, wrote or implied. The fact that I oppose the Muslim faith is misconstrued by many of you to mean that I support lynching the Arab race or those of the Islamic persuasion and
I take the greatest possible exception to such a misconstruction. Long live the revolution!And yet you enter a thread describing racism against muslim inside the education of the police force to come with your "insightfull" commentary about muslims. And this is hardly the first time either.

[Fabrizio]

Also how stupid would it seem if I said "Christian" and expected you to think "white person"? Why would you think "Muslim" should mean "Arab"? Seriously who's being the bigot here?

FFS.

People think Arabs=Muslims

Therefore all Arabs suffer from the bigotry which results from the lies told about Islam.

Get it?

[bots]

FFS.

People think Arabs=Muslims

Therefore all Arabs suffer from the bigotry which results from the lies told about Islam.

Get it?

I get it you dink. Do you get that by fighting on the ground of the enemy (ie referring to Muslims as a "race") you're actually being just about as racist as some "towel-heads-are-invading-America" douchebag?

[Crux]

I get it you dink. Do you get that by fighting on the ground of the enemy (ie referring to Muslims as a "race") you're actually being just about as racist as some "towel-heads-are-invading-America" douchebag?
No, because, as has been said in this thread, racism has never been based on race, since races are a made-up concept.

[Robocommie]

No, because, as has been said in this thread, racism has never been based on race, since races are a made-up concept.

Good point. It's all a social construct anyhow.

[Crux]

Good point. It's all a social construct anyhow.
Or to clarify the social traits racists apply to people of different ethnic backgrounds has nothing to do with "race", therefore similar characterizations based on culture or religion, but as always with race-related undertones, serve the exact same purpose, are the exact same thing. You might as well say there are no racism against black people, because technically black people contain a number of different ethnicities.

[Fabrizio]

I get it you dink. Do you get that by fighting on the ground of the enemy (ie referring to Muslims as a "race") you're actually being just about as racist as some "towel-heads-are-invading-America" douchebag?

Nobody really thinks Islam is a "race". If somebody actually said that it was probably a slip of the tongue, shit happens not everyone proof reads every post. so if that's you're one contribution, then well done, Islam isn't a race we all agree, have a cookie.

BTW are Somalians a race? but if I went around saying all Somalians should be killed would this be racist or xenophobic? If someone acidentally called me racist instead of xenophobic would you denounce them as racist for calling Somalians a race? And how would you prove that one thing is a race and one isn't, considering it's a socially constructed, not a biological, concept...?:tt1:

[bots]

Nobody really thinks Islam is a "race". If somebody actually said that it was probably a slip of the tongue, shit happens not everyone proof reads every post. so if that's you're one contribution, then well done, Islam isn't a race we all agree, have a cookie.

That's all I was saying and then people got all pissy. The issue could have been corrected when Fawkes said "fine I'll say bigotry" but nooo. And it's not like I'm nitpicking. It's an important concept, especially for Muslims.


BTW are Somalians a race? but if I went around saying all Somalians should be killed would this be racist or xenophobic? If someone acidentally called me racist instead of xenophobic would you denounce them as racist for calling Somalians a race? And how would you prove that one thing is a race and one isn't, considering it's a socially constructed, not a biological, concept...?:tt1:

No, belonging to a "race" or "ethnic group" is different than belonging to a religion. You "join" one "group" when you're born. You join the other group when you make a conscious decision to follow the creed. For this reason it's wrong to criticize someone for their "race" where it's certainly more appropriate to criticize someone for their religion.

[Widerstand]

Nobody really thinks Islam is a "race". If somebody actually said that it was probably a slip of the tongue, shit happens not everyone proof reads every post. so if that's you're one contribution, then well done, Islam isn't a race we all agree, have a cookie.

BTW are Somalians a race? but if I went around saying all Somalians should be killed would this be racist or xenophobic? If someone acidentally called me racist instead of xenophobic would you denounce them as racist for calling Somalians a race? And how would you prove that one thing is a race and one isn't, considering it's a socially constructed, not a biological, concept...?:tt1:

Xenophobia really only means that you don't like migrants, at least I haven't seen it used in another context ever.

You seem to be quite confused about racism. Racism is based on the perception that there are different races, which are worth more or less and which compete with each other. The point is that races themselves are based on socially constructed, largely arbitrary definitions.

I'll quote myself:


"Race" is a biological category subordinated to "species", defined by small differences in both genotype and phenotype but with the ability for different races to breed fertile offspring (different species, by definition, cannot breed fertile offspring).

For example different breeds of dogs constitute different biological races, and there are both differences in genotype and phenotype between, say, a German Shepherd and a Pitbull, yet the two can have offspring, which can in turn have offspring.

As far as I am aware there is no such thing amongst humans, although it can be observed that human sub-populations often have have similar genetic traits. For example Africa has a relatively high rate of people with sickle cell, because it grants pseudo-immunity to malaria and those without it often die pretty fast.This is absolutely no proof of the existence of such a thing as an "African race" though.

Historically, attempts to identify and categorize human races have usually either looked at skin color or other physical traits (phenotype, ignoring genotype), culture (neither phenotype nor genotype, unless culture were biologically determined which can't be proven), origin/ancestry (I guess you could claim this was a form of looking at genotype). Usually they attempted to trace ethnicity, culture or stereotyped traits (which often were made up to begin with) to biological determinants (such as ancestry), which can not be scientifically supported, at all.
More modern attempts (like Sarrazin) have attempted to define race by genes (for example he claimed to have identified a "Jewish gene"), which again, could not be supported by scientific evidence.

TL;DR: Human races are made up.

*addendum: Arguably, Neanderthals were a human race (homo sapiens neanderthalis), but biologically, all now alive humans are of the same race (homo sapiens sapiens).

As you can see, there really is no unified - let alone sound - definition of human races. It is entirely possible to construct a race identity based on religious beliefs, just as it is possible to construct a race identity based on cultures. In our case, a group of people ("Arabs", those looking "Arabic") are discriminated against because they are perceived to be Muslims. The form of this discrimination is the classic form of racism or "culturalism" (a form of racism where race definition is based on cultural differences), the discriminated group being treated as a "Muslim-Arab race" by those holding the racist view.

[Crimson Commissar]

FFS.

People think Arabs=Muslims

Therefore all Arabs suffer from the bigotry which results from the lies told about Islam.

Get it?
For fuck sake, WHAT lies about Islam? When people say that Islam calls for all non-believers to be punished, they're not fucking lying. It doesn't matter if the person saying it is a racist, it doesn't make it any less true. This liberal pro-islam bullshit doesn't belong on the left. We should defend victims of racism, not victims of anti-theism.

[Fabrizio]

That's all I was saying and then people got all pissy. The issue could have been corrected when Fawkes said "fine I'll say bigotry" but nooo. And it's not like I'm nitpicking. It's an important concept, especially for Muslims.



No, belonging to a "race" or "ethnic group" is different than belonging to a religion. You "join" one "group" when you're born. You join the other group when you make a conscious decision to follow the creed. For this reason it's wrong to criticize someone for their "race" where it's certainly more appropriate to criticize someone for their religion.

Yes I agree with that, fair enough. :)

[Fabrizio]

For fuck sake, WHAT lies about Islam? When people say that Islam calls for all non-believers to be punished, they're not fucking lying. It doesn't matter if the person saying it is a racist, it doesn't make it any less true. This liberal pro-islam bullshit doesn't belong on the left. We should defend victims of racism, not victims of anti-theism.

They're lying when they say that all Muslims secretly want to impose Islam on the world though...in reality religion is more of a cultural expression, most people don't actually believe holy scriptures literally.

Also I don't think that most Islam-baiters are "anti-theists".:lol: In fact I never heard the term "anti-theism" before revleft...

[Widerstand]

No, belonging to a "race" or "ethnic group" is different than belonging to a religion. You "join" one "group" when you're born. You join the other group when you make a conscious decision to follow the creed. For this reason it's wrong to criticize someone for their "race" where it's certainly more appropriate to criticize someone for their religion.

I have roughly outlined above how human "races" and race theories are constructed, and why it is perfectly reasonable to speak of racial discrimination (racism) against a group on the grounds of religious believes ascribed to them. However, your account of how one joins a religion is really off. Most people don't really make any conscious decision about their religion at all. They are born into an environment in which that religion is prevalent (for example their family, their community, their village, their town, their country, etc.). They are raised as religious people and indoctrinated. It takes a serious change in material reality or education (access to different information) for people to question, change or overcome this form of social conditioning.

[bots]

I have roughly outlined above how human "races" and race theories are constructed, and why it is perfectly reasonable to speak of racial discrimination (racism) against a group on the grounds of religious believes ascribed to them. However, your account of how one joins a religion is really off. Most people don't really make any conscious decision about their religion at all. They are born into an environment in which that religion is prevalent (for example their family, their community, their village, their town, their country, etc.). They are raised as religious people and indoctrinated. It takes a serious change in material reality or education (access to different information) for people to question, change or overcome this form of social conditioning.

I mostly agree. While I would say that your race theory re: religion is really only taking into account the oppressor's viewpoint, I can see where you're going and I don't necessarily disagree. However, an opposing analogy might go like this:

Most white people think black people are lazy criminals.
Therefore, as white people have constructed a racial stereotype concerning black people it is valid to refer to black people as lazy criminals.

Obviously this is ridiculous, but replace the words "white people" with "Westerners", black people with "Arabs" and "lazy criminals" with "Muslims" and you'll see how your race theory re: religion is really counter productive. I know you're personally not saying that Arabs = Muslims and that you're illustrating the way ignorance breeds its own mythologies, but for people who know better to refer to Muslims as a race is just kind of silly.

As far as people being indoctrinated into religions, I totally agree. This is why I tend to have a problem with liberal religious people attacking "militant atheists" for exposing religion as an institution which is not above withering criticism. By belittling the aura of sacredness that surrounds religion, "militant atheists" provide a worldview which opens a path out of the indoctrination of all religion, whether it be Christianity or Islam.

[Bardo]

Hmm

We have an anti-muslim reactionary movement, rampant nationalism associated with said movement, anti-muslim propaganda films being shown to law enforcement....

Where's Glenn Beck on this one?

[Diello]

Where's Glenn Beck on this one?

Drawing a diagram on a chalkboard while crying.

[Robocommie]

For fuck sake, WHAT lies about Islam? When people say that Islam calls for all non-believers to be punished, they're not fucking lying.

Uh, actually yes they are. For one thing, it's a major establishment of the Islamic faith that there is to be no compulsion of religion. Muhammad himself said that. This is why, during the medieval period, Islamic rulers were far more tolerant of both Jews and Christians living in their domains.

If you think that the average Muslim out there is holding onto a dagger, just waiting to strike down the infidel, then you're a buffoon, and a bigot. The average Muslim wants what the average anyone else wants, which is to take care of themselves and their family and live a good, happy life.

[Crimson Commissar]

Uh, actually yes they are. For one thing, it's a major establishment of the Islamic faith that there is to be no compulsion of religion. Muhammad himself said that. This is why, during the medieval period, Islamic rulers were far more tolerant of both Jews and Christians living in their domains.

If you think that the average Muslim out there is holding onto a dagger, just waiting to strike down the infidel, then you're a buffoon, and a bigot. The average Muslim wants what the average anyone else wants, which is to take care of themselves and their family and live a good, happy life.
I'm not talking about the average muslim, I'm talking about ISLAM. The religion. I have no problem with followers of the islamic faith, I only have a problem with their faith. Of course muslims were tolerant of jews and christians, the three religions are basiclaly the same damn thing, just each with an extra few stories and laws added on to them. Islam is completely intolerant of both other religions and of atheists. Christians, muslims and jews aren't the only fucking people on the world, and don't give me that crap about "they're the majority of people in the world", that doesn't make their beliefs right.

[Crux]

I'm not talking about the average muslim, I'm talking about ISLAM. The religion. I have no problem with followers of the islamic faith, I only have a problem with their faith. Of course muslims were tolerant of jews and christians, the three religions are basiclaly the same damn thing, just each with an extra few stories and laws added on to them. Islam is completely intolerant of both other religions and of atheists. Christians, muslims and jews aren't the only fucking people on the world, and don't give me that crap about "they're the majority of people in the world", that doesn't make their beliefs right.
Oh my. I prefer to base my politics on material conditions, not idealist "anti-theism", especially not one that accepts and encourages discrimination against religious minorities and tries to give that some kind of progressive flavor. Haven't we had this discussion before?

[Diello]

For fuck sake, WHAT lies about Islam? When people say that Islam calls for all non-believers to be punished, they're not fucking lying.


Uh, actually yes they are.

As to those who reject faith, I will punish them with terrible agony in this world and in the Hereafter, nor will they have anyone to help.
-Qur'an 3:56

I will cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve. Therefore strike off their heads and strike off every fingertip of them.
-Qur'an 8:12

O you who believe! fight those of the unbelievers who are near to you and let them find in you hardness.
-Qur'an 9:123

O Prophet! strive hard against the unbelievers and the hypocrites and be unyielding to them; and their abode is hell, and evil is the destination.
-Qur'an 9:73

Therefore listen not to the Unbelievers, but strive against them with the utmost strenuousness, with the (Qur'an).
-Qur'an 25:52

Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued.
-Qur'an 9:29

So when the sacred months have passed away, then slay the idolaters wherever you find them, and take them captives and besiege them and lie in wait for them in every ambush, then if they repent and keep up prayer and pay the poor-rate, leave their way free to them.
-Qur'an 9:5

They but wish that ye should reject Faith, as they do, and thus be on the same footing (as they): But take not friends from their ranks until they flee in the way of Allah (From what is forbidden). But if they turn renegades, seize them and slay them wherever ye find them; and (in any case) take no friends or helpers from their ranks.
-Qur'an 4:89

etc., etc., etc.

[Robocommie]

Hey, awesome, quoting a text out of context. Most certainly a favorite tactic of anti-Islamic bigots of all stripes, both right and left-wing. You'll find a lot of this shit on Christian fundamentalist websites too, and places like Jihad Watch. Actually, now that I think about it, I can think of a shit load of anti-Marxists and anti-socialists who like to take left-wing literature out of context and make us all look like psychopaths and murderers. It's possible to quote socialist literature to make us look bad, so we must be bad, right?

It's a lot easier to hate Islam and accuse Muslims of all kinds of dehumanizing things if you don't actually take the time to understand the complexity of Muslim theology, history and culture, and instead just cherry-pick things to focus on and ignore context. Oh, and do this while claiming to be in the vanguard of rational discourse, for the irony! Remember, rationality and humanity is a product of the western Enlightenment, so you're allowed to give in to stereotypes and gross generalizations!

[Obs]

Nothing gets the masses organised better than sophomoric mockery of their religious beliefs.

[psgchisolm]

And what are you, an Islamophile??? Congratulations, I hope your angel Gabriel leads you through the valley of darkness.Look at the quote below. Let King Troll lead you to Troll Mountain



More than two-thirds of people of Arab descent in the United States are actually Christian.

Don't you think that this might bring retaliation against them too?

(I'm personally of Syrian descent, although not Christian)

Keep digging that hole of yours, eventually you'll stop seeing the top :|Even through you were writing a report about "us" I agree with this post

I'm not a cop lover by any means

But are you an apologist for Muslims and their irrational beliefs and acts even those who are non-extremists? Down with all religions!!!

Long live the secular revolution!!!!
What's irrational is your dislike of religions. Who made you judge over my religion(Christian or to you KKKhristianity) to assume it's racist against african-americans. Especially since I AM AFRICAN-AMERICAN. Good luck trying to organize a revolution when you're spewing hatred of religions and then preaching about equality. Tbh Good Luck getting people for your revolution, because I sure as hell won't be apart of it.

[Diello]

Hey, awesome, quoting a text out of context. Most certainly a favorite tactic of anti-Islamic bigots of all stripes, both right and left-wing. You'll find a lot of this shit on Christian fundamentalist websites too, and places like Jihad Watch. Actually, now that I think about it, I can think of a shit load of anti-Marxists and anti-socialists who like to take left-wing literature out of context and make us all look like psychopaths and murderers. It's possible to quote socialist literature to make us look bad, so we must be bad, right?

Please, feel free to provide the context which changes the apparent meaning of the passages I've quoted; just saying "It's out of context" isn't a rebuttal.

[Robocommie]

Please, feel free to provide the context which changes the apparent meaning of the passages I've quoted; just saying "It's out of context" isn't a rebuttal.

That's fine, because your citations don't constitute a fucking argument. Certainly not one for a thesis as mind-blowingly stupid and offensive as "Muslims are violent and want to punish unbelievers."

I actually have a number of people I could speak to about this, history professors who focus on Islamic or Middle Eastern history. But the truth is, anyone who isn't a fucking tool knows that that kind of generalization is bullshit to begin with. There's something around 1 billion Muslims on the planet. 1 billion. That's a sixth of the entire human species.

In other words, grow the hell up. That's my rebuttal. If it isn't obvious to you that you're being bigoted, small-minded and petty, then I can't show you.

[Crimson Commissar]

That's fine, because your citations don't constitute a fucking argument. Certainly not one for a thesis as mind-blowingly stupid and offensive as "Muslims are violent and want to punish unbelievers."

I actually have a number of people I could speak to about this, history professors who focus on Islamic or Middle Eastern history. But the truth is, anyone who isn't a fucking tool knows that that kind of generalization is bullshit to begin with. There's something around 1 billion Muslims on the planet. 1 billion. That's a sixth of the entire human species.

In other words, grow the hell up. That's my rebuttal. If it isn't obvious to you that you're being bigoted, small-minded and petty, then I can't show you.
If you seriously think religion has any fucking right to exist in the modern world, I am very very worried for the future of our species.

[bots]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uS5DaTIF1a0

I'm sure this applies to Muslims and most other religions too.

[Thirsty Crow]

If you seriously think religion has any fucking right to exist in the modern world, I am very very worried for the future of our species.
Indeed you are an idealist. Assuming that certain human practices inherently do not possess the right to exist.
Moreover, it seems as if you would argue that religious belief is the main motor force behind all of the social problems in the contemporary world. Surely, then, te future of our species will be prosperous if we just drive that shit out of Muslims', Christians' etc. heads. And nevermind the actual social relations engendered by the productive relations of capitalism.

[Obs]

If you seriously think religion has any fucking right to exist in the modern world, I am very very worried for the future of our species.
Stupendous argument, chap. Now I dare you to give a reason that it [religion] does not have said "right" to exist - a reason that must not:

1) Use the words "2011", "21st century" or any such idiotic insistance on telling us how long it's allegedly been since the birth of Jesus. We know what year it is.

2) Ignore the social and material conditions that give cause for religion. Marx recognised these, and so should you.

3) Use the words "savage", "barbaric", or any such other chauvinist bullshit without giving a very good definition of the term used, and an explanation of how the people you're dismissing as "savage" ended up that way.

I eagerly await your response, you ponce.

[Robocommie]

If you seriously think religion has any fucking right to exist in the modern world, I am very very worried for the future of our species.

:rolleyes:

More than that, I don't think you have any right to decide what other people are allowed to believe. I mean, how old are you? Are you even older than 25? And yet you've decided you already understand so much about the world and the human condition that you can decide for the entire human race what's good for them? What a tool.

[bots]

:rolleyes:

More than that, I don't think you have any right to decide what other people are allowed to believe. I mean, how old are you? Are you even older than 25? And yet you've decided you already understand so much about the world and the human condition that you can decide for the entire human race what's good for them? What a tool.

Ageism and ad hominem. Real classy.

[scarletghoul]

Muslims are the new Irish.. Its not about religion, not one bit. Anyone who thinks this is a problem of religious tolerance is completely missing the point. It is racism; the demonisation, suspectisation and otherisation of an oppressed minority community.
This video from marxism 2010 is worth listening to (though i advise you to skip past the woman at the beginning as she doesnt add much)
http://blip.tv/file/4180693/

[Thirsty Crow]

Ageism and ad hominem. Real classy.
Still does not change the fact that the argument in question is utter bullshit.

[scarletghoul]

Why the fuck does every thread about islamophobia end up with people debating Islam and religion .. if someone clogged up all the anti-semitism related threads with posts like "judaism is an oppressive and evil religion we shouldnt allow it", or posted in all the ireland-related threads with "catholicism is a backwards religion it has no place in the modern world bla bla" they would hopefully be removed, because thats really not the point of the conversation at all. Surely its obvious that this is not about religion.

[Robocommie]

Ageism and ad hominem. Real classy.

Hah, yeah, I'm the boorish, uncouth one in this argument. :rolleyes: You're a fucking joke.

PS: Love how you're offended by the "ageism" in suggesting someone has some growing up left to do, but doesn't cry any tears over the generalization of an entire religious group, even though said religious group is being intentionally targeted by western media for purposes of imperialism. Disgusting.

[Bardo]

If you seriously think religion has any fucking right to exist in the modern world, I am very very worried for the future of our species.

Every religion has every right to exist in the modern world. I myself am an atheist and believe theism is a desperate cling to the past. I cant relate to a faith over reason belief system but I can relate to social intolerance and intellectual prejudice. A staple of any modern civilization should be the tolerance of others. Reactionary persecution based on how anyone thinks, what anyone believes or says is regressive and is not productive for anyone. Eventually, I believe religion willfade into the history books on it's own and will be regarded as ancient superstition with or without persecution or intolerance.

[bots]

Hah, yeah, I'm the boorish, uncouth one in this argument. :rolleyes: You're a fucking joke.

PS: Love how you're offended by the "ageism" in suggesting someone has some growing up left to do, but doesn't cry any tears over the generalization of an entire religious group, even though said religious group is being intentionally targeted by western media for purposes of imperialism. Disgusting.

Oh I wasn't offended. I was just pointing out your hypocrisy. You seem to yell really loud about people being rude and yet you drop insults as soon as you start to flounder.


Why the fuck does every thread about islamophobia end up with people debating Islam and religion .. if someone clogged up all the anti-semitism related threads with posts like "judaism is an oppressive and evil religion we shouldnt allow it", or posted in all the ireland-related threads with "catholicism is a backwards religion it has no place in the modern world bla bla" they would hopefully be removed, because thats really not the point of the conversation at all. Surely its obvious that this is not about religion.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MAVyiJ1SINE

[Crux]

Oh I wasn't offended. I was just pointing out your hypocrisy. You seem to yell really loud about people being rude and yet you drop insults as soon as you start to flounder.



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MAVyiJ1SINE
Nice libertarian t-shirt.

[bots]

Hey Robocommie, why did you delete your last reply??

[Robocommie]

Oh I wasn't offended. I was just pointing out your hypocrisy. You seem to yell really loud about people being rude and yet you drop insults as soon as you start to flounder.


If you really think this is about just "being rude" then you're an idiot. Although it's pretty obvious you're a troll.

[Robocommie]

Hey Robocommie, why did you delete your last reply??

Cause your mother.

[bots]

Cause your mother.

Grow up!

[scarletghoul]

Why is bots not banned.

[bots]

Why is bots not banned.

I made some good points in this thread. Though I'll admit I had a hard time refraining from some good ol' ribbing (and did in fact succumb to temptation once or twice).

[scarletghoul]

That video is really the icing on the cake though. its stupid, libertarian and not even funny. If anything you should be banned for poor taste.

[bots]

That video is really the icing on the cake though. its stupid, libertarian and not even funny. If anything you should be banned for poor taste.

The only thing libertarian in that video is the shirt. And if you don't think Doug Stanhope is funny you suck.

[Robocommie]

That video is really the icing on the cake though. its stupid, libertarian and not even funny. If anything you should be banned for poor taste.

Seriously. It's like Carlos Mencia had a baby with Andrew Dice Clay.

[Obs]

If you seriously think religion has any fucking right to exist in the modern world, I am very very worried for the future of our species.


Stupendous argument, chap. Now I dare you to give a reason that it [religion] does not have said "right" to exist - a reason that must not:

1) Use the words "2011", "21st century" or any such idiotic insistance on telling us how long it's allegedly been since the birth of Jesus. We know what year it is.

2) Ignore the social and material conditions that give cause for religion. Marx recognised these, and so should you.

3) Use the words "savage", "barbaric", or any such other chauvinist bullshit without giving a very good definition of the term used, and an explanation of how the people you're dismissing as "savage" ended up that way.

I eagerly await your response, you ponce.

And the erudite remains silent! You are, in fact, unable to do what I've asked of you, because you know nothing about the origins of religion according to historical materialism, your understanding of Marxism is flawed, and your arrogant anti-religious elitism is incompatible with a materialist perception of the world. Stop polluting the image of left-wing thought with this thoughtless, idealist nonsense.

[Robocommie]

The only thing libertarian in that video is the shirt. And if you don't think Doug Stanhope is funny you suck.

What sucks is that Mitch Hedberg and Richard Pryor are dead and Doug Stanhope isn't.

[bots]

What sucks is that Mitch Hedberg and Richard Pryor are dead and Doug Stanhope isn't.

Oh come on. Have you seen any of the Voice of America bits? They're fucking hilarious!

[Robocommie]

Oh come on. Have you seen any of the Voice of America bits? They're fucking hilarious!

Drunken, misanthropic, libertarian scumbag whose act seems to mostly consist of hurling abuse at any and all comers and trying to make Howard Stern look politically correct. Boring and obnoxious.

[bots]

Drunken, misanthropic, libertarian scumbag whose act seems to mostly consist of hurling abuse at any and all comers and trying to make Howard Stern look politically correct. Boring and obnoxious.

Is that a yes or no? I mean, some of his stuff is meh but this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pv1AqwzRkeE

???