Will we ever kick nazis?

[Triple A]

I was thinking and I came to the conclusion that we Antifa do not make as much as we should.
I thought of this when I found this in a facsist website:
" I've heard the threats not felt the actions, from you low life left wing factions."

So my question is, will we make them feel our actions instead of our threats?



PS: If you are against violence thowards fascists you are very idealistic.:huh:

[Anarchist Skinhead]

I don't know where you from mate, but there are fair few corners of that world where they definitely feel the actions ;)

[scarletghoul]

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/52/191537507_71824cfcdf_m.jpg

well, that was easy

[PhoenixAsh]

I am not sure what you mean... If they never felt action then they are either not very active, do not encounter us locally because they live in some godforsaken place or we are indeed to few in numbers at his/her location.

If rallies are planned we are always there...but also always being separated by the police. Its hard to take action when you do not know where they live and chance encounters are few and in between and mostly when I am alone and they are not. If they are...they will feel...if not...I am ANTIFA, but not stupid or suicidal.

[psgchisolm]

I was thinking and I came to the conclusion that we Antifa do not make as much as we should.
I thought of this when I found this in a facsist website:
" I've heard the threats not felt the actions, from you low life left wing factions."

So my question is, will we make them feel our actions instead of our threats?



PS: If you are against violence thowards fascists you are very idealistic.:huh:
sure we will...

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/52/191537507_71824cfcdf_m.jpg


but only after they come around the hood like that guy:laugh:, but in all seriousness. It wouldn't be our best interests to fight nazis in their marches or parades. The only thing it does is have our members incarcerated and make them look like the innocent ones. Perhaps we should hold marches and let them come to us.:sleep:

[Sasha]

sure we will...

but only after they come around the hood like that guy:laugh:, but in all seriousness. It wouldn't be our best interests to fight nazis in their marches or parades. The only thing it does is have our members incarcerated and make them look like the innocent ones. Perhaps we should hold marches and let them come to us.:sleep:

lets not, i have been harrasing our pathetic dutch nazi marches for over an decade, i must say it was quite an shocker when i was on an march in germany and suddenly our route was blokaded by quite an bunch of autonomus nazi's with an "antifa aufmarch verhindern" banner actually looking for an fight. luckily they completly underestimate our numers and we chased them in an shoping center and gave them an good hiding but still... its not an good thing when the tables start turning and the nazi go on the offensive

[Delenda Carthago]

http://www.militant-blog.org/wp-content/uploads/2008/10/piazza-navona-copy.jpg

[9]

will we ever kick nazis
http://farm1.static.flickr.com/52/191537507_71824cfcdf_m.jpg


http://www.militant-blog.org/wp-content/uploads/2008/10/piazza-navona-copy.jpg

lol antifascism is so, so dumb. Seriously, if you just want to go beat people up, why not join a gang and drop the whole "anarchist" or "communist" facade?

EDIT: also...



PS: If you are against violence thowards fascists you are very idealistic.:huh:

Violence against 'fascists' (or whoever) to protect yourself, sure. But in my experience, antifascists tend not to be the people who are targeted by "fascists" at all, but are mostly just insecure manchildren who want to go "kick some Nazis" for sport in order to try and prove to everyone how hard they are.

And putting aside the issue of protecting oneself, I think you have it backwards; it isn't those who are against going out and 'kicking nazis' who are 'idealistic', its the antifascists themselves who are.
You see things like the holocaust as the result of "fascist ideas", which is your justification for going out and "kicking Nazis"; that is the epitome of idealism.

[psgchisolm]

lets not, i have been harrasing our pathetic dutch nazi marches for over an decade, i must say it was quite an shocker when i was on an march in germany and suddenly our route was blokaded by quite an bunch of autonomus nazi's with an "antifa aufmarch verhindern" banner actually looking for an fight. luckily they completly underestimate our numers and we chased them in an shoping center and gave them an good hiding but still... its not an good thing when the tables start turning and the nazi go on the offensive
Sorry there was supposed to be a not in there somewhere. I edited it now.

[Crimson Commissar]

I do wonder why leftists seem to be so enthusiastic about murdering fascists, but when anyone implies that we should be fucking up some capitalists too no one seems to give a shit. The revolution isn't going to come by beating up some sad pathetic Nazi gang in the street...

[9]

I do wonder why leftists seem to be so enthusiastic about murdering fascists, but when anyone implies that we should be fucking up some capitalists too no one seems to give a shit. The revolution isn't going to come by beating up some sad pathetic Nazi gang in the street...

Well, for what its worth, the revolution isn't going to come by beating up some capitalists either.

[synthesis]

PS: If you are against violence thowards fascists you are very idealistic.:huh:

Violence towards fascists is meaningless without context. Violence to prevent or overthrow fascism is a different story.

[Anarchist Skinhead]

9- only think I can say after reading your sorry excuse for analysis is that you are a complete cock.
Crimson Commisar- I suggest trip to Eastern Europe and checking yourself, whether you can even beging to start revolutionary activity with gangs of fash running amok, definitely not being little "sad and pathetic gang".

[An archist]

lol antifascism is so, so dumb. Seriously, if you just want to go beat people up, why not join a gang and drop the whole "anarchist" or "communist" facade?

EDIT: also...



Violence against 'fascists' (or whoever) to protect yourself, sure. But in my experience, antifascists tend not to be the people who are targeted by "fascists" at all, but are mostly just insecure manchildren who want to go "kick some Nazis" for sport in order to try and prove to everyone how hard they are.


Where I live, when a place is squatted and turned into an anarchist social center, every once in a while it will get some attention from fascists, who put bricks through the windows.
When people inside throw stuff back at the attackers, the attacks become less frequent.
Only when the local fash group gets a good kicking, then the attacks stop. Until a new group of frustrated baldies pops up.
For me, that's antifascism, and yes, it may look like a sort of politicised gang war from time to time, but that's not really my concern.

EDIT: also, if I'm not mistaken the 'prima e dopo' picture is from a group of Italian fash who were standing at the end of a student protest like that.

[9]

9- only think I can say after reading your sorry excise for analysis is that you are a complete cock.
:)

[Rooster]

Beating up a bitter young man who thinks all leftists are ruining his country isn't going to make him less bitter.

[Widerstand]

lol antifascism is so, so dumb. Seriously, if you just want to go beat people up, why not join a gang and drop the whole "anarchist" or "communist" facade?

I agree that antifascist groups often are reminiscent of street gangs and incredibly juvenile. It depends on the group's structure, the environment in which it operates and a couple of other things, though. I don't think it's fair to claim all antifa are just disguised gangs.



Violence against 'fascists' (or whoever) to protect yourself, sure. But in my experience, antifascists tend not to be the people who are targeted by "fascists" at all, but are mostly just insecure manchildren who want to go "kick some Nazis" for sport in order to try and prove to everyone how hard they are.

In my experience, fascists have a resume of setting asylum camps on fire when you give them the chance, they take over entire villages and they harass leftists (sometimes even to death) and leftist centers. It may be different elsewhere, but I wouldn't just WAIT until they start doing it.



And putting aside the issue of protecting oneself, I think you have it backwards; it isn't those who are against going out and 'kicking nazis' who are 'idealistic', its the antifascists themselves who are.
You see things like the holocaust as the result of "fascist ideas", which is your justification for going out and "kicking Nazis"; that is the epitome of idealism.

The holocaust certainly is the result of fascist (or rather Naziist) ideas. These ideas did neither develop, nor spread, nor manifest in a vacuum, though. It was material reality that gave rise to them, that helped them spread, and ultimately that paved the way for them to be acted on.

As it is now, we can not fight against their existence (they are already out there), and we can only do so much to fight their spread (through stuff like education, propaganda, blocking their propaganda, and also youth work - I'd rather have 10 antifa gangs beating up Nazis than 1 Nazi gang beating up migrants) - but ultimately that front is lost too, because there are observable material factors that influence the rise of Neonazism/Fascism in an area, most prominently (in Germany) unemployment rates and low level of education.

What we can do however is prevent them from being acted upon, and yes, that is done by keeping them from having marches, that is done by beating them up and telling them to fuck off, that is done by giving them shit before they get big enough to do it the other way. I'd rather prevent them from attacking anyone than to fight in "self defense."


Beating up a bitter young man who thinks all leftists are ruining his country isn't going to make him less bitter.

I think the most fitting response to this is:

"I can understand, well he's unemployed
and without perspectives he sometimes attacks blacks
you got to care, you got to accept
with so much crisis it's easy to lose your head
give him something that lasts, a bit security
a youth club where he can scream "Heil Hitler" occasionally
you got to be tolerant now and then"
But your tolerance makes me sick!

[Delenda Carthago]

Beating up a bitter young man who thinks all leftists are ruining his country isn't going to make him less bitter.
It can make him less outgoing though.

Seriously, anyone who doesnt understand violence against nazis, dont have a nazi problem in their country.


This picture was taken on the first attempt of some nazis to take over an area in Athens where many immigrants live.Its some comrades chasing some nazis.
http://img545.imageshack.us/img545/1534/fasistaki.jpg

One year and a half later,with the help of cops and local mafias, they get 20fuckin% on that area.We tryed twice with big demos to get to the square of the area, but riot cops and fascists stopped us.How you gon tell me violence is not needed?

http://athens.indymedia.org/local/webcast/uploads/metafiles/fasistes-molotof1.jpg

This is from the same street, from the second attempt.The guy holding the molotov is a fascist and he threw the bottle right next to cops. How you gon tell me violence is not needed?Luckily,the idiot threw the bottle on one of their own who got burnt.

So all your talkin on the issue, dont mean nothing to someone that has face nazis on the street. Do something else with your lives.

[An archist]

Beating up a bitter young man who thinks all leftists are ruining his country isn't going to make him less bitter.
It all depends on where and when he gets beaten up.
If he gets beaten up simply for walking around, it might make him more pissed and militant.
If he gets beaten up because he's at a fascist protest or because he's hanging around with other fash, it might make him think twice about doing those things.

[Rooster]

I'm not against harrassing them during a protest or defending people from them. I'm tolerant of all people, I'm intolerant to the society and conditions that produce these ideas in people. Of all the people on the streets who march in fascist parades, there's thousands more who sit at home and share the same views, who vote and buy right wing newspapers. I'm not sure how useful it is to go right out and attack them.

If you're going to take the idea that "violence against nazis" is good, then why not follow that to it's logical conclusions?

[Widerstand]

I'm not against harrassing them during a protest or defending people from them. I'm tolerant of all people, I'm intolerant to the society and conditions that produce these ideas in people. Of all the people on the streets who march in fascist parades, there's thousands more who sit at home and share the same views, who vote and buy right wing newspapers. I'm not sure how useful it is to go right out and attack them.

If you're going to take the idea that "violence against nazis" is good, then why not follow that to it's logical conclusions?

Reading a right wing newspaper at home is hardly the same as putting up Hitler images in your room, calling for violence against migrants and beating up leftists on the street. You seem to not have a problem with fascists where you live if you think that comparison is at all valid.

[Rooster]

My point is that there's a real connection between those two things.

[An archist]

I'm not against harrassing them during a protest or defending people from them. I'm tolerant of all people, I'm intolerant to the society and conditions that produce these ideas in people. Of all the people on the streets who march in fascist parades, there's thousands more who sit at home and share the same views, who vote and buy right wing newspapers. I'm not sure how useful it is to go right out and attack them.

If you're going to take the idea that "violence against nazis" is good, then why not follow that to it's logical conclusions?

Is there any group that does that or says we should do that?

[PhoenixAsh]

Funny story there....

A couple of years back...

Two nazi skinhead kids (probably 15-16)...you know...the classic ones..bomberjacket with the nice patches of ironcrosses, swastika´s and SS-runes... They were yelling abuses at some old people. NOBODY was bothering these little ****s. Thinking them misguided bitter and idiotic youths. Till my grifriend came by 1.56m, 49 kg, athletic... And they started making sexist and racist jokes (she was also black/chinese). My gf told them to fuck off and one of the guys pushed her and hit her for telling him off....and then threatened they would come back find her and rape her. She managed to get home. Where she told me what happend and I had to help with her bloody nose and some bruises.

So after that I went outside. Found the little pricks and made them strip all their clothes till their underwear. I did not beat them up...but I did use some force. I was 29 at the time, weigh about 80 kg, powerlifting for 6 years, skinhead...so I kind of made an impression. So after they stripped I used some lighter fuel to set fire to their bomberjackets and pants (which had swastika's drawn on them) told them exactly what their ideology wasz about gave them one of my books about the holocaust and einsatzgruppen and how they should not be angry with me for using that very same ideology and behaviour against them....and made the crying ****s walk back home like that.

Seen them one more time as socially well adjusted somewhat bigger kids when I worked as a manager in a local callcenter. Apparantly they wanted to get jobs there. IN fact they were nice kids..not a trace of their stupid nazi skinhead ideology left. But someone needed to set them straight.

These kids were lucky they were kids. Had they been adults they would have ended up in hospital.

Now tell me again....how does violence never solve a problem?

[Widerstand]

My point is that there's a real connection between those two things.

Hence not both get treated the same way. I don't see your argument.

[Rooster]

The majority of anti-fascists that I've met have been more concerned about immediately combating these people on the streets, rather than concentrating or combining this with much more practical and long term solutions such as combating the ideas and the conditions where racist and reactionary ideology flares up. The nazis ive seen on marches that have been harrassed and attacked have all been the same faces for years and years and assualting them hasn't stopped them from still being in those organistations. You have two types of nazi now in Europe, the ones who try to make their cause legit and poltical such as the BNP and the ones who are in the streets with their boots. Both sprout from the same world and the same problems and the same ideology.

[Anarchist Skinhead]

It hasn't stopped them from being in those organisations, however I bet that it stopped many of them from organising those marches in first place. After all Scotland is hardly famous/infamous as a hotspot for nazi/right wing scum.

[PhoenixAsh]

The majority of anti-fascists that I've met have been more concerned about immediately combating these people on the streets, rather than concentrating or combining this with much more practical and long term solutions such as combating the ideas and the conditions where racist and reactionary ideology flares up. The nazis ive seen on marches that have been harrassed and attacked have all been the same faces for years and years and assualting them hasn't stopped them from still being in those organistations. You have two types of nazi now in Europe, the ones who try to make their cause legit and poltical such as the BNP and the ones who are in the streets with their boots. Both sprout from the same world and the same problems and the same ideology.

Yes I agree with you here. The fact remains that voilence does help stop the spread of the last kind of nazi's and does stop to get them out in the open more often then they are. It also shows other people that their is opposition to these kind of fucks and that joining them is dangerous.

Different groups of Nazi's require different approaches. But violence and noise protests are usually quite effective in curbing their chances to spread the message.

Another favorite tactic which does wonders for your press propaganda is provocation. Provoce them to attack first when media and or police are around. This is not very hard to do....just attack when media isn't around

Now...we completely agree that violence alone is not enough to stop Nazism as it is endemic of the economic system and society we live in. But since we are currently not able to change society as a whole we can and should combat its symptoms where we can.

Do not think for a second that it is safe for me to walk around in certain parts of Holland as an identifiable ANTIFA or Anarchist. There is no such thing as a Nazi who just walks around being an avarage civilian. I have been beaten up more times than want to remember on chance encounters...and I know to many doctors by their first name. For me that means a swastika bearing **** issued without speaking a direct threat to my life, that of some of my friends, my girlfriend and to some of my family. THey are not just saying that they follow a crazed ideiology,...these symbols say...when get the chance I will kill you. So yes...when I see a Nazi walking down the street and I can get away with it I will proactively defend myself.

[Anarchist Skinhead]

what he said ;)

[Delenda Carthago]

The majority of anti-fascists that I've met have been more concerned about immediately combating these people on the streets, rather than concentrating or combining this with much more practical and long term solutions such as combating the ideas and the conditions where racist and reactionary ideology flares up. The nazis ive seen on marches that have been harrassed and attacked have all been the same faces for years and years and assualting them hasn't stopped them from still being in those organistations. You have two types of nazi now in Europe, the ones who try to make their cause legit and poltical such as the BNP and the ones who are in the streets with their boots. Both sprout from the same world and the same problems and the same ideology.
Well,about that, here in Greece, all antifa groups are mostly conserned about far right,nationalist and conservative issues other than just nazis.In an average antifa magazine, you will see articles about nazis in a ratio 2/10. Matter of fact, some antifa groups talk about "fascism without swastiga". About nowdays totalitarianism, about body science etc

[Crimson Commissar]

Well, for what its worth, the revolution isn't going to come by beating up some capitalists either.
Well, it would be a damn good way to start it. Fascists don't really control any government at this point, whereas capitalists control almost the entire world by now.

[Sasha]

It hasn't stopped them from being in those organisations, however I bet that it stopped many of them from organising those marches in first place. After all Scotland is hardly famous/infamous as a hotspot for nazi/right wing scum.

and not to mention how many people got prevented from joining nazi groups.

its very hard to mantain an image of "tough as nails aryan hardman soldiering for the working man" when you are for your own safety forced to march on an windy industrial site cowering behind riot police lines while the general public is shouting abuse at you only to arive back at your cars finding them smashed to bits.

like hitler himself said:


“Only one thing could have stopped our movement. If our adversaries had understood its principle, and from the first day had smashed with the utmost brutality the nucleus of our new movement. "

as an jewish queer anarcho-communist i think when it comes to any new nazi or fascist group ill be rather safe than sorry and take onkel adolfs advice, rather smash up one nazi meeting to many then ever have to find out that if only i had acted earlier i would not be sitting in an cattle train to poland.

[Triple A]

So, we agree with violence or words?

[Tavarisch_Mike]

So, we agree with violence or words?

It depends.

Violence itselfe isnt intresting, its the resulte and therefor we must take the tactic that suits most for the moment, Some times violence will not just be the most effective but it will be necessary, some times propaganda and spreading information will be better, but to talk about moral whats right and whats wrong wont be productive.

[Stand Your Ground]

So all your talkin on the issue, dont mean nothing to someone that has face nazis on the street. Do something else with your lives.
Well said comrade. We have to let them know we won't sit idly by as they attack & spread hate as they please. If we're not going to do what it takes to stop them, they'll do whatever it takes to stop us.

[Frosty Weasel]

http://img3.visualizeus.com/thumbs/09/01/03/comic,book,illustration,poster,propaganda,spoof,ty pography-68a4a9de6f61f3c8502cd681aa959d54_h.jpg

[Widerstand]

http://img3.visualizeus.com/thumbs/09/01/03/comic,book,illustration,poster,propaganda,spoof,ty pography-68a4a9de6f61f3c8502cd681aa959d54_h.jpg

That's one hell of a sexy poster. Too bad you would get sued for promoting Nazi propaganda in Germany if you used it. :/

[Fietsketting]

Do not think for a second that it is safe for me to walk around in certain parts of Holland as an identifiable ANTIFA or Anarchist.

I can't think of one place that fits that desciption. :blushing:

[Sasha]

I can't think of one place that fits that desciption. :blushing:

spijkernisse? some parts of limburg? prob some parts of brabant too.
i for one tend to stay out of walking in parts of eindhoven on my own, also at the heigt of the NSA hype there where some part of den haag/zoetermeer i would prefer to have my dog with me but thats past now.

[Triple A]

spijkernisse? some parts of limburg? prob some parts of brabant too.
i for one tend to stay out of walking in parts of eindhoven on my own, also at the heigt of the NSA hype there where some part of den haag/zoetermeer i would prefer to have my dog with me but thats past now.


That is sad. Here in Lisbon I know people that wear necklaces with an (A) every day.



I think that violence does not make people smart but sometimes we need to be a little more active.

[Angryawakeyouth]

The real issue here is that although I agree that violence against Nazis is right it can seem hard to justify when my own beliefs are based on equality. I believe that everyone deserves rights. But when your beliefs are based in racial hatred and a sense of superiority and a belief that your right is to take others rights away is when violence should be enacted. Fascist parades need to be broken up and action taken against Nazis and fascists.

[Ravachol]

spijkernisse? some parts of limburg? prob some parts of brabant too.
i for one tend to stay out of walking in parts of eindhoven on my own, also at the heigt of the NSA hype there where some part of den haag/zoetermeer i would prefer to have my dog with me but thats past now.

To be honest I've never had any such trouble while walking around in Brabant or Limburg and I'm pretty obviously Antifa I guess. Hell I even stood next to some C18 tosser in the pub while drunk only to realise it moments later. Then again, it's probably all because of my imposing physique! :D

[Os Cangaceiros]

It's weird that anti-fascism is such a big deal in Europe, from an American perspective anyway. Nazis don't really have a visible presence in the United States. I mean, the political climate is more right-wing than Europe, but the "far right" here seems to have less political currency than their Euro counterparts.

ARA grew to be pretty big back in the 90's, though.

[Fietsketting]

Then again, it's probably all because of my imposing physique! :D

I still think its the hairstyle :thumbup:

Next meeting... Bzz bzzz bzzzzzz! :D

[Delenda Carthago]

By the way, when shit mattered, we did kicked their fuckin asses....
We took them by kicking form Stalingreant to Berlin...Thats a long ass kick, dont you think?

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_Cx5YSp-ghS8/TMgdFsutuMI/AAAAAAAAIz0/qD0TFU7GNVA/S1600-R/WW2+berlin+communists+conquer+Europe.jpg

[Anarchist Skinhead]

Stalingrad ;)

[scarletghoul]

It's weird that anti-fascism is such a big deal in Europe, from an American perspective anyway. Nazis don't really have a visible presence in the United States. I mean, the political climate is more right-wing than Europe, but the "far right" here seems to have less political currency than their Euro counterparts.

ARA grew to be pretty big back in the 90's, though.
The Tea Party is fascist.. They do not endorse Hitler but they have all the ingredients of a Fascist movement and play the role perfectly. The US Left should do more to combat US fascism and make its own voice heard.

[Dimentio]

I was thinking and I came to the conclusion that we Antifa do not make as much as we should.
I thought of this when I found this in a facsist website:
" I've heard the threats not felt the actions, from you low life left wing factions."

So my question is, will we make them feel our actions instead of our threats?



PS: If you are against violence thowards fascists you are very idealistic.:huh:

Nazis are a symptome, not the disease. As long as systems of public welfare are deconstructed and unemployment cemented, there would be Nazis.

Some of them are sick individuals, while most of them are just desperate boys from the underclass.

[Fietsketting]

Stalingrad ;)

I was looking at that and it looked like Stalingrand.. Stalin-Grand, then i facepalmed.

[El Rojo]

Nazis don't really have a visible presence in the United States

republicans?

[Widerstand]

republicans?

That's not Nazis.

[Os Cangaceiros]

The Tea Party is fascist.. They do not endorse Hitler but they have all the ingredients of a Fascist movement and play the role perfectly. The US Left should do more to combat US fascism and make its own voice heard.

I do not think that they're fascists. I think that they're reactionary conservatives.

They do provide fascists with a good pool of potential recruits, though.

[synthesis]

That's not Nazis.

They're not Nazis, but they're riding the same currents.

[9]

They're really not.

[synthesis]

They're really not.

Not Nazis, or not riding the same currents? I should clarify that I was referring more to the Tea Party, but the larger Republican Party could be aptly compared to the conservative German government institutions which allowed the Nazis their rise to power.