LGBT and the Left

[Kestrel_194]

Hello again for the third time, comrades! Since my other two posts have rapidly gained attention, I figured that a third question was hardly inappropriate. So, what would one's view on homosexuality, bisexuality and the like be, depending on his or her leftist opinions. What would a Marxist-Leninist think? What would a Stalinist think? Or a Maoist?
Thanks again!
Oh, and just a completely unrelated question, does anyone know what the theme music is from the Gmod Idiot Box Episode 10? Or from the movie 'Up' where the old guy is coming down the stairs on the lift and has breakfast and stuff? Just asking.

[Tommy4ever]

Well I am in favour of a libertarian society. By that I mean - do whatever feels right in your private life.

[Fawkes]

Hello again for the third time, comrades! Since my other two posts have rapidly gained attention, I figured that a third question was hardly inappropriate. So, what would one's view on homosexuality, bisexuality and the like be, depending on his or her leftist opinions. What would a Marxist-Leninist think? What would a Stalinist think? Or a Maoist?
Thanks again!
Oh, and just a completely unrelated question, does anyone know what the theme music is from the Gmod Idiot Box Episode 10? Or from the movie 'Up' where the old guy is coming down the stairs on the lift and has breakfast and stuff? Just asking.

If someone is in any way discriminatory toward anyone as a result of their sexuality/sex/gender, they are not a leftist.


Stalin criminalized homosexuality after Lenin decriminalized it. I'm not too sure about the treatment of LGBTQs in China during Mao's time.

[Quail]

Leftists oppose discrimination, which obviously includes discrimination based on sexuality. People should be free to do whatever they want in the bedroom without getting shit for it.

[Sixiang]

Like the other responses say, leftism is in opposition towards oppression. Discrimination of LGBT people is just stupid and backwards thinking. As society becomes more comfortable and accepting of it, more LGBT people will come out and it will seem silly to imprison and deny rights to LGBT people when they are your friends, co-workers, and family. I'v heard different theories across the left and among different schools of psychology about gender neutrality and everyone actually being pansexual in a way. I do believe for the most part that one's sexual behavior (not actual orientation) is often a result of society's beliefs at the time.

As far as Lenin, Stalin, and Mao. If I'm not mistaken, homosexuality was legalized in the USSR under Lenin, but Stalin reversed that because he saw it as a bourgeois practice. Not sure about Mao.

[The Garbage Disposal Unit]

http://babypowerdyke.files.wordpress.com/2008/11/not-gay-as-in-happy.jpg

[TC]

Homosexuality was illegal in nearly all capitalist states until relatively recently (its been within the last decade that it was uniformly legalized in America) - Marxists including the socialist states of a Leninist tradition have been at the forefront of gay rights (though Marx himself was not).

The Soviet Union was amongst the first countries to legalize homosexuality - though it was returned to the same illegal status as in capitalist countries in 1933...but it may have been primarily as an offense that could be used against political enemies. There were well known openly gay figures in the Soviet Union who, not being political enemies, were never prosecuted for homosexuality, such as Sergei Eisenstein and Guy Burgess.

For what its worth, despite liberal great-man-theory-of-history revisionism, Lenin and Stalin and all other public leaders with few exceptions are not personally responsible for making or changing laws. Even less so with Mao who for much of his political life was not a state official but rather a sort of most senior statesman and leading communist figure outside of the government apparatus.

There were never criminal laws against homosexuality in China or other east Asian socialist states but there was cultural discrimination against homosexuality that carried over from the Ming era.

Cuba's culture has often been homophobic but the Cuban government has been particularly progressive with regards to LGBT rights though as can be found discussed in many threads if you use a search function (these include efforts to legalize gay marriage, publicly funded pro-lgbt educational centers, state sponsored pro-gay films on tv, public condemnation of homophobia by Fidel Castro, etc).

However it is entirely wrong to ask what Stalin, Mao, Lenin or Marx (or Trotsky) would have thought of homosexuality, a concept very much under development and poorly understood in their time - to answer the question of what a Marxist, Marxist-Leninist, or Stalinist or Maoist would think of LGBT issues. Real Leftists of all stripes do not dogmatically endorse anachronistic positions held by dead leaders, they critically evaluate and reevaluate current material and socio-political conditions and the current state of knowledge (presumably Marx and Lenin didn't believe in the theory of general relativity, it hardly means marxist-leninists don't).

So the answer is that today Marxists, Marxist-Leninists, Maoists, and Stalinists, uniformly believe that lgbt people are part of normal human variation deserving of equal rights and dignity and all contemporary leftist organizations endorse this view regardless of whether they are Maoist or Stalinist or Marxist-Leninist.

[Diello]

http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a256/Emperor_Diello/album3/VG_0045.jpg

All political denominations should be fabulous, but that's just my opinion.

[Sixiang]

Homosexuality was illegal in nearly all capitalist states until relatively recently (its been within the last decade that it was uniformly legalized in America) - Marxists including the socialist states of a Leninist tradition have been at the forefront of gay rights (though Marx himself was not).

The Soviet Union was amongst the first countries to legalize homosexuality - though it was returned to the same illegal status as in capitalist countries in 1933...but it may have been primarily as an offense that could be used against political enemies. There were well known openly gay figures in the Soviet Union who, not being political enemies, were never prosecuted for homosexuality, such as Sergei Eisenstein and Guy Burgess.

For what its worth, despite liberal great-man-theory-of-history revisionism, Lenin and Stalin and all other public leaders with few exceptions are not personally responsible for making or changing laws. Even less so with Mao who for much of his political life was not a state official but rather a sort of most senior statesman and leading communist figure outside of the government apparatus.

There were never criminal laws against homosexuality in China or other east Asian socialist states but there was cultural discrimination against homosexuality that carried over from the Ming era.

Cuba's culture has often been homophobic but the Cuban government has been particularly progressive with regards to LGBT rights though as can be found discussed in many threads if you use a search function (these include efforts to legalize gay marriage, publicly funded pro-lgbt educational centers, state sponsored pro-gay films on tv, public condemnation of homophobia by Fidel Castro, etc).

However it is entirely wrong to ask what Stalin, Mao, Lenin or Marx (or Trotsky) would have thought of homosexuality, a concept very much under development and poorly understood in their time - to answer the question of what a Marxist, Marxist-Leninist, or Stalinist or Maoist would think of LGBT issues. Real Leftists of all stripes do not dogmatically endorse anachronistic positions held by dead leaders, they critically evaluate and reevaluate current material and socio-political conditions and the current state of knowledge (presumably Marx and Lenin didn't believe in the theory of general relativity, it hardly means marxist-leninists don't).

So the answer is that today Marxists, Marxist-Leninists, Maoists, and Stalinists, uniformly believe that lgbt people are part of normal human variation deserving of equal rights and dignity and all contemporary leftist organizations endorse this view regardless of whether they are Maoist or Stalinist or Marxist-Leninist.

I couldn't have said it better myself. Marx, Lenin, Stalin, Trotsky, etc. etc. were all merely the products of their time. They were who they were because of all of the social variables that made their identity, just like anyone in the world.

[Summerspeaker]

I don't know that leftist tendency has much bearing on the matter. Some scholars assign anarchists a leading role in pushing LGBT rights, but it varies from person to person. For me, queer liberation stands at the heart of my revolutionary commitment. The oppressive gender distinction and associated horrors must fall along with capitalism.

[Kamil]

VELVET GOLDMINE!! HAHA nice pic!!!!!!! I always remeber being rather disapointed by hearing Fidel use the word maricon (faggot) but i know raul's daughter is into gay lib tho. Whats this about Cuba's aggresive GLBTQ policies? Sources?

[Frosty Weasel]

Gender is societal while sex is biological.

Ergo, once society is revolutionized all former ideas and biases on gender will cease.

[Frosty Weasel]

Gender is societal while sex is biological.

Ergo, once society is revolutionized all former ideas and biases on gender and sexual orientation will cease.


Leftists oppose discrimination, which obviously includes discrimination based on sexuality. I dunno, I find it pretty hard to support Pedophiles past getting them psychological treatment.

[TC]

VELVET GOLDMINE!! HAHA nice pic!!!!!!! I always remeber being rather disapointed by hearing Fidel use the word maricon (faggot) but i know raul's daughter is into gay lib tho. Whats this about Cuba's aggresive GLBTQ policies? Sources?

http://www.revleft.com/vb/sexuality-t60170/index.html?p=924327

[Tablo]

All political ideologies of the revolutionary left support LGBT rights. Sometimes reactionary individuals in the movement oppose it, but the vast majority support it all the way.

[Kamil]

@ TC, thats cool, thank you for sharing that! U've given up on men eh?? So have I in large part, but then again, I am a man myself.:laugh: HOWEVER, those old pics of Che?:tt1: and not to mention I recently saw the Fidel interview with Barbra Walters, hes so SMOOTH AND SEXY. :tt1: :tt1: Brings out the weak kneed schoolgirl in me.

[Savage]

''If you don't believe in gay marriage, don't get one, If you're against abortion, don't have one.''-I've always considered that to be a great argument/moto.

[ZeroNowhere]

''If you don't believe in gay marriage, don't get one, If you're against abortion, don't have one.''-I've always considered that to be a great argument/moto.If you're against murder, don't do it?

[Fawkes]

If you're against murder, don't do it?

Yeah, doesn't get much simpler than that.

The difference is that the aforementioned actions don't directly harm anybody.



I dunno, I find it pretty hard to support Pedophiles past getting them psychological treatment.
I think implicit in what she was saying is "free to do whatever" provided all parties are consensual.

[genstrike]

All political ideologies of the revolutionary left support LGBT rights. Sometimes reactionary individuals in the movement oppose it, but the vast majority support it all the way.

Just for the sake of curiousity, I wonder if there are still any radical left organizations which are flat out opposed to any sort of queer liberation. I know up until relatively recently (like, mid 2000s), the RCP had the "homosexuality is bourgeois" line.

[RED DAVE]

Sorry Stalinists and Maoists, and supporters of Castro, but, historically, not only these leaders but the movements they led were reactionary on the question of homosexuality.

There was no excuse for what Stalin did or for the reactionary policies of Mao and Castro. They could have spoken out publicly. For a so-called Marxist to display publicly a prejudice that was exposed by, say, 1920, is inexcusable. Marxists are supposed to be in the forefront of human liberation not tail-ending reactionaries.

In the US, the Stalinist and Maoist parties were backward on the question of gay liberation into the 70s.

RED DAVE

[red cat]

I am interested to know the opinions of Marx, Engels, Trotsky and Mao on LGBT rights.

@ the OP: Maoists are most probably the only leftist force in the third world who win concrete rights for the LGBT community.

[RED DAVE]

I am interested to know the opinions of Marx, Engels, Trotsky and Mao on LGBT rights.

@ the OP: Maoists are most probably the only leftist force in the third world who win concrete rights for the LGBT community.Don't know specifically about Marx and Engels, but Trotsky was part of the government that instituted gay rights in the USSR. Stalin lead the government that took them away.

Trotskyists of various kinds were among the most progressive groups on the Left with regard to gay rights in the 60s and 70s.

Maoists in the third world have certainly changed their attitudes in the past 30 years. About time. But let's not forget that the oppression of gays in China from 1949 till ... whenever ... was a direct result of the policies of Maoists. They could have changed the conditions of gays all over the world in 1950. Instead, they were as reactionary as any bourgeois government.

RED DAVE

[Savage]

Engels was blatantly and openly homophobic, there isn't really any evidence to suggest either way for Marx, he (Marx) was given books on homosexual emancipation by a gay rights activist, after reading them he passed them onto Engels who was disgusted. And since I don't think there's any record of Marx's opinion on these books, it is possible that Marx too was insulted by the books and then passed them onto Engels anticipating a similar reaction, or, he was interested in the books and passed them onto Engels not knowing what he would think. There's another case when Marx and Engels ridiculed a labor activist who was found guilty of soliciting a teenage boy, but this would not necessarily be homophobic. Even if Marx was homophobic, he and Engels were both radically feminist for their time, and the fight for womens rights should be accompanied by gay rights.

[Zanthorus]

With regards to Engels, I was informed by Ben Lewis of the CPGB (PCC), who is (If memory serves, I know for certain that he is giving a talk for them on Zinoviev's role in the Halle congress of the USPD) a member of London Socialist Historians, that he had spoken to one of the people working on the MEGA 2 project, and reportedly they had found that the infamous homophobic comment in Engels' Origins of the Family was actually a later insertion by it's editors in the Soviet Union. This would be during the time when the fSU had banned homosexuality. Something interesting to think about.

[Savage]

With regards to Engels, I was informed by Ben Lewis of the CPGB (PCC), who is a member of London Socialist Historians, that he had spoken to one of the people working on the MEGA 2 project, and reportedly they had found that the infamous homophobic comment in Engels' Origins of the Family was actually a later insertion by it's editors in the Soviet Union. This would be during the time when the fSU had banned homosexuality. Something interesting to think about.
That doesn't surprise me but I thought there were also homophobic comments in letters to Marx.

[Sixiang]

Regardless of what Marx or Engels actually said about it, I think that's not the point. Marx, Engels, and everyone else in the world are the result of their social upbringing. How you're raised, in what time period, and where in the world creates who you are. In the 19th century, most people generally saw homosexuality as "disgusting." People also used to believe that the world was flat and witchcraft was a serious social problem. Societies evolve. People move on and change over time.

[TC]

Sorry Stalinists and Maoists, and supporters of Castro, but, historically, not only these leaders but the movements they led were reactionary on the question of homosexuality.

There was no excuse for what Stalin did or for the reactionary policies of Mao and Castro. They could have spoken out publicly. For a so-called Marxist to display publicly a prejudice that was exposed by, say, 1920, is inexcusable. Marxists are supposed to be in the forefront of human liberation not tail-ending reactionaries.

In the US, the Stalinist and Maoist parties were backward on the question of gay liberation into the 70s.

RED DAVE

Castro did speak out publicly against homophobia, I linked to a post that quotes him publicly condemning homophobia.

[red cat]

Don't know specifically about Marx and Engels, but Trotsky was part of the government that instituted gay rights in the USSR. Stalin lead the government that took them away. Wasn't Stalin also a part of that government ? I am interested in knowing whether Trotsky had a clear position on the topic. If he did not condemn the outlawing of homosexuality in the USSR, then given the fact that he was so critical of Stalin on all other matters, it seems very probable that he shared Stalin's views on homosexuality.


Trotskyists of various kinds were among the most progressive groups on the Left with regard to gay rights in the 60s and 70s.

Maoists in the third world have certainly changed their attitudes in the past 30 years. About time. But let's not forget that the oppression of gays in China from 1949 till ... whenever ... was a direct result of the policies of Maoists. They could have changed the conditions of gays all over the world in 1950. Instead, they were as reactionary as any bourgeois government.

RED DAVE

May be so, but what matters most right now is that the only major gains that the LGBT community is making in the third world is almost solely due to Maoists and no other leftist tendency. So even in this aspect of practice, Maoists are far ahead of every other tendency.

[southernmissfan]

Just for the sake of curiousity, I wonder if there are still any radical left organizations which are flat out opposed to any sort of queer liberation. I know up until relatively recently (like, mid 2000s), the RCP had the "homosexuality is bourgeois" line.

Does the MIM take that line? Or did they? For some reason I seem to recall some fringe Maoist group spouting that (in addition to being anti-sex, anti-drugs and generally more socially conservative than your average church).

No offense to any MIM-sympathizer. My memory is fuzzy so I don't remember for sure.

[Fawkes]

Most impoverished people are economic leftists while somewhat culturally conservative, and I don't think they'd appreciate westerners defining how they should think. Comes off somewhat chauvinist.

To state that liberation from sexual and gender inequality is a congenital aspect of revolution is chauvinist?

If some "socialist" in an impoverished country is jamming out to "Boom Bye Bye", then fuck them, and if that's me "defining how they should think", so be it.


It doesn't mean that they themselves are reactionaries, it just means their culture has propogated homosexual hatred/racism/societal ills as a means of division and distraction from the hands of capitalist masters.
If a leftist in a Western industrialized country harbored racist or homophobic views they would be quickly dismissed by most as a reactionary, how is that any different?

I'm not saying we should just dismiss these people because they may hold some prejudiced views, but don't use the fact that they live in an impoverished area as an excuse for these beliefs.

[Queercommie Girl]

All political ideologies of the revolutionary left support LGBT rights. Sometimes reactionary individuals in the movement oppose it, but the vast majority support it all the way.

Many Stalinists do not support LGBT rights. Even today the majority of socialists in China do not support LGBT rights.

Stop assuming that everyone in the world will just automatically have a progressive position on this issue. There is still a long way to go. Furthermore, political support does not equate cultural acceptance.

Objectively, the dividing line is Direct Worker's Democracy. Any political ideology that supports direct worker's democracy will also likely support LGBT rights. Any political ideology that opposes direct worker's democracy will also likely oppose LGBT rights. Without direct worker's democracy, LGBT rights can never be guaranteed.

[Queercommie Girl]

May be so, but what matters most right now is that the only major gains that the LGBT community is making in the third world is almost solely due to Maoists and no other leftist tendency. So even in this aspect of practice, Maoists are far ahead of every other tendency.


Wasn't Bob Avakian of the Maoist RCP in the US homophobic also?

[Queercommie Girl]

While I may agree with your sentiments, it's certainly not fact. Most impoverished people are economic leftists while somewhat culturally conservative, and I don't think they'd appreciate westerners defining how they should think. Comes off somewhat chauvinist. It doesn't mean that they themselves are reactionaries, it just means their culture has propogated homosexual hatred/racism/societal ills as a means of division and distraction from the hands of capitalist masters.

No-one is forcing them to believe in "Western" culture, or trying to make all straight people queer as well. (Except some idealistic "ultra-radical" people) As far as I'm concerned, LGBT people are a sexual minority and will probably always be. My position on LGBT politics is not ultra-radical. Queer people have no right to try to make straight people gay than straight people have to make queer people straight.

But having said this, LGBT people deserve the same kind of equality and respect as everyone else. This is why I think the struggle for LGBT rights is centred around the struggle for democratic rights, not the abstract struggle for "sexual liberation".

[RED DAVE]

Castro did speak out publicly against homophobia, I linked to a post that quotes him publicly condemning homophobia.But only after many years. He could easily have combatted homophobia in Curba from the beginning but he, like Stalinists and Maoists, did not when they had a chance. Apparently the example the Bolsheviks set in 1923 was too hard for them.

RED DAVE

[red cat]

Wasn't Bob Avakian of the Maoist RCP in the US homophobic also?

Look at the third world. That is the epicenter of the world revolution. No one cares about what irrelevant leaders like Bob Avakian did in the USA. Which leftist tendency other than Maoists is actually fighting and winning rights for the LGBT community in, say, south Asia ?

[red cat]

But only after many years. He could easily have combatted homophobia in Curba from the beginning but he, like Stalinists and Maoists, did not when they had a chance. Apparently the example the Bolsheviks set in 1923 was too hard for them.

RED DAVE

Why wasn't the LGBT rights issue brought up by Sri Lankan Trotskyites from the beginning of their attempted insurrection ?

[the last donut of the night]

Just for the sake of curiousity, I wonder if there are still any radical left organizations which are flat out opposed to any sort of queer liberation. I know up until relatively recently (like, mid 2000s), the RCP had the "homosexuality is bourgeois" line.

this is due to the fact that the RCP is completely batshit insane

[Queercommie Girl]

Look at the third world. That is the epicenter of the world revolution. No one cares about what irrelevant leaders like Bob Avakian did in the USA. Which leftist tendency other than Maoists is actually fighting and winning rights for the LGBT community in, say, south Asia ?

It would be good if you can convince the Maoists inside China itself to support LGBT rights as well. Isn't China technically considered to be a part of the "Third World" too?

Numerically speaking the majority of self-proclaimed Maoists in the entire world still reside within mainland China.

But generally speaking I recognise that Maoists are much better on this issue than Stalinists and other Stalinist-derivatives like Hohxaists. Probably partly because Maoism takes a Third Worldist perspective to some extent rather than the elitest white male militaristic-bureaucratic complex.

[red cat]

It would be good if you can convince the Maoists inside China itself to support LGBT rights as well. Isn't China technically considered to be a part of the "Third World" too?

Numerically speaking the majority of self-proclaimed Maoists in the entire world still reside within mainland China.

By Maoist we mean those who consider Maoism as a qualitative development over Marxism Leninism. Only those who uphold the GPCR fall into this category. Therefore Chinese Dengists are not Maoists. This makes India, and not China, the country where most Maoists reside.

Moreover China is a capitalist country which is increasingly adopting imperialist policies. So it is a second world country now.

[Queercommie Girl]

By Maoist we mean those who consider Maoism as a qualitative development over Marxism Leninism. Only those who uphold the GPCR fall into this category. Therefore Chinese Dengists are not Maoists. This makes India, and not China, the country where most Maoists reside.

Moreover China is a capitalist country which is increasingly adopting imperialist policies. So it is a second world country now.

Well, in many "3rd world" countries historically there was never as much oppression against LGBT people as there was in the capitalist West until recently.

In Buddhist countries in Asia there have been a certain niche for "3rd sex" people (of course, they were still heavily oppressed) whereas even geniuses like Alan Turing were forced to commit suicide by the British capitalist ruling class simply because he was gay.

[red cat]

Well, in many "3rd world" countries historically there was never as much oppression against LGBT people as there was in the capitalist West until recently.

In Buddhist countries in Asia there have been a certain niche for "3rd sex" people (of course, they were still heavily oppressed) whereas even geniuses like Alan Turing were forced to commit suicide by the British capitalist ruling class simply because he was gay.

Or may be in third world countries the oppression against the LGBT community is in such a monstrous form that most cases are not even reported ? In south Asia the honour killings administered on same-sex couples or even their existence has come to be known on a large scale since only the past two decades.

[Queercommie Girl]

Or may be in third world countries the oppression against the LGBT community is in such a monstrous form that most cases are not even reported ? In south Asia the honour killings administered on same-sex couples or even their existence has come to be known on a large scale since only the past two decades.

Are you saying these happen in non-Islamic (Hindu and Buddhist) areas?

I do know that in Confucian-influenced nations of East Asia, actual murder of LGBT people is quite rare, most likely they just become social outcasts.

[Frosty Weasel]

Well, in many "3rd world" countries historically there was never as much oppression against LGBT people as there was in the capitalist West until recently. I agree, although I must add my own input. Homosexually in Europe was in many cases seen as socially acceptable and perfectly normal. I read in one Anthropological journal that in Germanic/Celtic tribal culture it was actually seen as offensive to refuse sex with your host.

It was only with the adoption of Christianity, spread by Imperialism (Roman, French, British, etc), that Homosexuality was largely looked down upon in the world.

The other contributor to world homophobia was Islam, spread through early Islam's imperial conquests.

North America, where no major Abrahamic religion touched until recent history, I have no knowledge of. If someone has knowledge of this that would like to contribute I'd be obliged.

Although Lesbians typically never get any love in any culture.

[Queercommie Girl]

I agree, although I must add my own input. Homosexually in Europe was in many cases seen as socially acceptable and perfectly normal. I read somewhere that in Germanic/Celtic tribal culture it was actually seen as offensive to refuse sex with your host.

It was only with the adoption of Christianity, spread by Imperialism (Roman, French, British, etc), that Homosexuality was looked down upon.

Although Lesbians typically never get any love in any culture.

I said "capitalist West", not just "West".

Homosexuality was widespread in Greco-Roman cultures.

[RED DAVE]

By Maoist we mean those who consider Maoism as a qualitative development over Marxism Leninism. Only those who uphold the GPCR fall into this category. Therefore Chinese Dengists are not Maoists. This makes India, and not China, the country where most Maoists reside.

Moreover China is a capitalist country which is increasingly adopting imperialist policies. So it is a second world country now.So what was the excuse of Mao and Co.? Why did they, supposedly the most advanced political grouping in China, if not the world, act less progressively than a US petit-bourgeois radical?

History didn't start yesterday. And those who don't understand it, like Maoists, will end up repeating it, as in Nepal.

RED DAVE

[red cat]

So what was the excuse of Mao and Co.? Why did they, supposedly the most advanced political grouping in China, if not the world, act less progressively than a US petit-bourgeois radical?

Really ? I always thought that Cheng Tu Hsiu and others who were kicked out of the CPC were the most advanced political grouping in China. May be we should look into what they had to say about LGBT rights. Which tendency were they affiliated to, again ?



History didn't start yesterday. And those who don't understand it, like Maoists, will end up repeating it, as in Nepal.

RED DAVE

Perhaps we should ask these (http://www.onesolutionrevolution.com/node/234) gentlemen what history they were repeating throughout the war against the monarchy in Nepal.

[Frosty Weasel]

I said "capitalist West", not just "West".

Homosexuality was widespread in Greco-Roman cultures.I wasn't disagreeing with you. I apologize if my post came off as such.

[red cat]

Are you saying these happen in non-Islamic (Hindu and Buddhist) areas?

All over south Asia. Including Islamic areas. I don't know of any prominent Buddhist area here.


I do know that in Confucian-influenced nations of East Asia, actual murder of LGBT people is quite rare, most likely they just become social outcasts.Are you sure of this ? In Buddhist societies, murder as we know it, is forbidden. In most such places they somehow made sure that the victim would not receive food. Are you sure that the LGBT community did not face this ?

[Bad Grrrl Agro]

Gender is societal while sex is biological.

Ergo, once society is revolutionized all former ideas and biases on gender will cease.
Gender and sex are both spectrums.

Also, certain aspects of gender are societal. But some aspects of gender identity are inherent.

And to erase gender is to erase all pronouns as many languages are gendered inherently.

[Frosty Weasel]

But some aspects of gender identity are inherent.

And to erase gender is to erase all pronouns as many languages are gendered inherently.Modern Anthropology would disagree with you.
http://employees.oneonta.edu/farberas/ARTH/Images/ARTH200/body/Ads/children/ad_vanity.jpg
This girl, for instance, is not inherently inclined to like pink or to be obsessed with materialistic things such as makeup. These things are defined by the culture, which eventually culminate in the Anglo-Saxon image of the female gender. If you would please list the facets of gender that are inherent, I'd be glad to examine them.

I'm advocating sexual liberation on the basis of equality, not elimination. You misunderstood the ceasing of gender biases to include the destruction of gender nouns, which is just plain silly.

[Bad Grrrl Agro]

Modern Anthropology would disagree with you.
http://employees.oneonta.edu/farberas/ARTH/Images/ARTH200/body/Ads/children/ad_vanity.jpg
This girl, for instance, is not inherently inclined to like pink or to be obsessed with materialistic things such as makeup. These things are defined by the culture, which eventually culminate in the Anglo-Saxon image of the female gender. If you would please list the facets of gender that are inherent, I'd be glad to examine them.

I'm advocating sexual liberation on the basis of equality, not elimination. You misunderstood the ceasing of gender biases to include the destruction of gender nouns, which is just plain silly.


Let us use myself as an example:

I was born (for the most part) biologically male bodied but even from day one I knew that there was something wrong that my body did not match me. From an early age I would tuck in the shower because I knew that part was not supposed to be there. Hence biological sex is not the only inherent part of the spectrum. I was a woman born in the wrong body.

[Comrade Wolfie's Very Nearly Banned Adventures]

I said "capitalist West", not just "West".

Homosexuality was widespread in Greco-Roman cultures.

Very diffrent form of homosexuality

[Bad Grrrl Agro]

Very diffrent form of homosexuality
Do elaborate...

[Frosty Weasel]

Let us use myself as an example:

I was born (for the most part) biologically male bodied but even from day one I knew that there was something wrong that my body did not match me. From an early age I would tuck in the shower because I knew that part was not supposed to be there. Hence biological sex is not the only inherent part of the spectrum. I was a woman born in the wrong body.In my Gender in Eastern Cultures class that I took as a part of my Social Justice minor I was taught that in a case such as yours, it was still biology that determined a not-in-right-body case.

I would find the reference and exact quote from my book, but it's back in the States.



Very diffrent form of homosexuality
I've never seen a different form of Homosexuality. Different positions maybe but never...

[Bad Grrrl Agro]

In my Gender in Eastern Cultures class that I took as a part of my Social Justice minor I was taught that in a case such as yours, it was still biology that determined a not-in-right-body case.

I would find the reference and exact quote from my book, but it's back in the States.
Well that makes sense when you put it that way.

In the DSM IV they refer to my condition as "Gender Identity Disorder (GID)" Although word on the street says in the DSM V they will rename it "Gender Incongruence"

[Frosty Weasel]

Well that makes sense when you put it that way.

In the DSM IV they refer to my condition as "Gender Identity Disorder (GID)" Although word on the street says in the DSM V they will rename it "Gender Incongruence"The name sounds like it embraces the classic idea that gender is synonymous with your sexual biology.

Much in the same way gender stereotyping is actually a misnomer because it largely doesn't take into account gender statuses such as yours.

Sexual Stereotyping is much more accurate a term.

[Ocean Seal]

What one does in their private life is no business of the state. Prejudice against gays, lesbians, bisexuals, and transsexuals must be eliminated from out society completely. You can't be a 21st century leftist is you're prejudiced against any LGBT groups.

You can't favor freeing the straight proletariat or the male proletariat.
You must favor freeing the whole proletariat.

[Bad Grrrl Agro]

The name sounds like it embraces the classic idea that gender is synonymous with your sexual biology.

Much in the same way gender stereotyping is actually a misnomer because it largely doesn't take into account gender statuses such as yours.

Sexual Stereotyping is much more accurate a term.
The DSM IV (and to a slightly lesser extent the DSM V) implies that there is something defective about me.

[RED DAVE]

Wiggle and squeal and bullshit all you want, red cat. Fact is that Chinese Maoists were as homophobic as hell and had no excuse for it.

And I guess the Nepalese Maoists have had to do some fast learning.


Kidnapping Contradicts Promise ‘Not to Punish Homosexuals’

April 16, 2007

(New York) - The Communist Party of Nepal-Maoist, which is now part of the Nepalese government, must stop anti-gay violence by its cadres and renounce anti-gay rhetoric, Human Rights Watch said in a letter to lawmakers today.http://www.hrw.org/en/news/2007/04/15/nepal-maoists-should-end-anti-gay-violence

RED DAVE

[Frosty Weasel]

The DSM IV (and to a slightly lesser extent the DSM V) implies that there is something defective about me. Wasn't it only until the seventies that the American Psychological Institute considered homosexuality as a mental disease?

If memory serves me correct, I wouldn't trust their definitions entire even today.

[red cat]

Wiggle and squeal and bullshit all you want, red cat. Fact is that Chinese Maoists were as homophobic as hell and had no excuse for it.

Then the same can be said about Trotsky and his Chinese followers who purposefully remained silent about the alleged anti-homosexuality stand of Stalinists and Maoists.


And I guess the Nepalese Maoists have had to do some fast learning.



http://www.hrw.org/en/news/2007/04/15/nepal-maoists-should-end-anti-gay-violence

RED DAVESo is it wrong to learn fast ? Or are you sorry that your beloved comrades (http://www.revleft.com/vb/nepalese-maoists-persecute-t58163/index.html?p=844705#post844705) in south Asia are becoming more and more ridiculous (http://www.igovernment.in/site/Nepal-Maoists-to-stand-up-for-gay-rights-in-UN/) by the day ?

[RED DAVE]

Wiggle and squeal and bullshit all you want, red cat. Fact is that Chinese Maoists were as homophobic as hell and had no excuse for it.
Then the same can be said about Trotsky and his Chinese followers who purposefully remained silent about the alleged anti-homosexuality stand of Stalinists and Maoists.(1) Shame on the Chinese trots and Trotsky himself for failing to aggressively condemn what the Stalinists and Maoists did.

(2) The lives of the gay people in question were ruined by Stalinists and Maoists ruined who were in power and had no excuse for their actions.


So is it wrong to learn fast ? Or are you sorry that your beloved comrades (http://www.revleft.com/vb/nepalese-maoists-persecute-t58163/index.html?p=844705#post844705) in south Asia are becoming more and more ridiculous (http://www.igovernment.in/site/Nepal-Maoists-to-stand-up-for-gay-rights-in-UN/) by the day?You don't get it do you?

(1) You can't exonerate the political crimes of your tendency by point to those of another, real or imaginary.

(2) There was still no excuse for the violent homophobia of the Nepalese Maoists.

(3) What was the excuse for the homophobia of Maoists and Stalinists in the US?

(4) Did you read your above link where the Nepalese Maoists lead a fight for gay rights at the UN? It's certainly worth highlighting.

RED DAVE

[Queercommie Girl]

Actually a bit of a tangent:

The Maoists in China used to accuse the Chinese Trotskyists for being "homosexuals" as a kind of insult. They say the Trots like to have sexual orgies in public bathrooms. :D

[RED DAVE]

Actually a bit of a tangent:

The Maoists in China used to accuse the Chinese Trotskyists for being "homosexuals" as a kind of insult. They say the Trots like to have sexual orgies in public bathrooms. :DGot a source for this?

RED DAVE

[Bad Grrrl Agro]

Wasn't it only until the seventies that the American Psychological Institute considered homosexuality as a mental disease?

If memory serves me correct, I wouldn't trust their definitions entire even today.
You have a point.

[red cat]

(1) Shame on the Chinese trots and Trotsky himself for failing to aggressively condemn what the Stalinists and Maoists did.

(2) The lives of the gay people in question were ruined by Stalinists and Maoists ruined who were in power and had no excuse for their actions.


Okay, shame on Trotsky and Stalin themselves, and their comrades in Russia and China for being homophobes.


You don't get it do you?

(1) You can't exonerate the political crimes of your tendency by point to those of another, real or imaginary.

(2) There was still no excuse for the violent homophobia of the Nepalese Maoists.1) Shame on Nepalese Maoists for not combating homophobia among their cadres earlier.

2) Hats off to them for rectifying themselves and fighting for LGBT rights.

3) Shame on Nepalese Trotskyites who haven't made statements about all this, thus proving that they remain homophobes to this day.


(3) What was the excuse for the homophobia of Maoists and Stalinists in the US?You should ask them instead. I don't defend most of the beliefs or actions of groups like the RCP or MSH.


(4) Did you read your above link where the Nepalese Maoists lead a fight for gay rights at the UN? It's certainly worth highlighting.

RED DAVE

Agreed. But this was hardly an achievement. The main emphasis should lie on educating the masses and eliminating LGBT-phobia from all levels of the society. Only then will it be a true achievement by Maoist standards. Maoists don't really consider supporting LGBT rights or socialist revolution on paper to be anything important.

[Queercommie Girl]

Got a source for this?

RED DAVE

I got a Chinese source, not an English one. It's from an article written by Chinese Trotskyists and Chen Duxiu allies in the 1930s.

[Tomhet]

I'm a bisexual gent, LGBT rights should come without question once capitalism falls, along with sexism, racism, etc..

[Queercommie Girl]

I'm a bisexual gent, LGBT rights should come without question once capitalism falls, along with sexism, racism, etc..

Yeah, but that's something people need to work for.

Just repeating a political principle isn't worth much in itself.

[Comrade Wolfie's Very Nearly Banned Adventures]

Do elaborate...

Breifly, since I don't wanna de-rail. Pederasty was socially acceptable and the most commonly accepted social form of Homosexual relations within Ancient Greek society (it varies from Polis to Polis, such as Sparta's legally enforced pederasty, wheras elsewhere, such as Athens, it was largely an educational custom).

Perhaps the use of the word 'form' was incorrect, since this is largely a customary/socially acceptable diffrence in homosexual relationships.

Not to say that there were no Homosexual relationships outside of Pederasty, but this was the most common form, and is reflected in numerous works of art, poetry, and mythology. If you wanna discuss this further I'll happily do so in the history forum.

[Queercommie Girl]

I'm not too sure about the treatment of LGBTQs in China during Mao's time.


Maoism's attitude to LGBT rights is better than Stalinism's. There was no explicit law against homosexuality in Maoist China, but in reality it was often punished under a related sexual law, as a kind of "lumpenised sexual behaviour". (The basic idea is that homosexuality is something the degenerated lumpen-proletariat would engage in) Basically homosexual acts were put into the same category as sexual harassment and rape.

Also, Chinese culture is generally speaking less homophobic than either Western Christian culture or Islamic culture. While in traditional Confucian societies homosexuality would never be accepted and queers would be treated as social outcasts, it would also be very rare for queers to be actually murdered simply as a result of their sexuality. Certainly the kind of barbaric "honour killings", where parents murder their own queer children, like those that sometimes happen in Islamic countries, or like the public executions of gays in Iran, would never occur in countries influenced by Chinese culture and Confucianism.

Also, Chinese culture is highly meritocratic. The Chinese worship not religious doctrines, but worldly success and power. This means in Chinese society one can literally "get away with" being queer if one is highly successful. (In China you can pretty much get away with anything if you are successful enough) The kind of barbarism that occur in the West, where even a great genius like Alan Turing (the father of modern computer science) was forced to commit suicide by the British capitalist ruling class, would not happen in China. While the Chinese generally oppose homosexuality, they would also certainly make exceptions for people like Alan Turing, if only for purely strategical reasons. For the Chinese, strategy is always more important than dogmatic principles, whether progressive or reactionary in nature.