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Fulanito de Tal
18th January 2011, 19:43
http://english.aljazeera.net/news/middleeast/2011/01/201111816449558559.html


In a visit to occupied West Bank, president Dmitry Medvedev says Moscow recognises independent state for Palestinians.

Russian president Dmitry Medvedev has reaffirmed recognition of a Palestinian state, saying Moscow will not change the position adopted by the former Soviet Union when it recognised independence for Palestinians in 1988.

"Russia's position remains unchanged. Russia made its choice a long time ago," Medvedev said at a news conference in the West Bank city of Jericho on Tuesday.

"We supported and will support the inalienable right of the Palestinian people to an independent state with its capital in East Jerusalem."

Medvedev made the comments during his first visit to the Israeli-occupied West Bank as Russian head of state.

Medvedev stopped short of issuing a declaration of recognition of Palestinian statehood by the modern Russian Federation, which he represents. But much like the rest of the world, he was supportive of a Palestinian state along the 1967 borders.

The visit and meeting with his Palestinian counterpart, Mahmoud Abbas, reinforced already strong Russian-Palestinian ties, Al Jazeera's Nour Odeh said, reporting from the West Bank city of Ramallah.

Abbas thanked Russia for being "one of the first states in the world to recognise the state of Palestine in 1988".

"This surely has raised a lot of hopes and a lot of optimism among Palestinians that this kind of recognition would boost their efforts and might influence the upcoming quartet meeting in February," our correspondent said.

Russia is a partner of the United States, European Union and United Nations in "the Quartet", the international powers overseeing Middle East peace negotiations.

Medvedev arrived ahead of next month's quartet meeting in Munich, in a bid to try and help revive stalled Israeli-Palestinian peace talks.

The negotiations collapsed at the end of last year after Israel refused to extend a 10-month partial freeze on settlement-building in the occupied West Bank.

"We discussed the possible prospects of resuming the dialogue," Medvedev said. "In order to do that, we need to express maximum moderation. This in the first place relates to the freezing of settlement activity of Israel on the West Bank and in East Jerusalem."

Gathering momentum

On Tuesday, Medvedev stressed the importance of compromise, saying there would be "no progress" without an Israeli decision on settlement building.

"Russia [is] aligning itself with the Palestinian position and implying that it would relay that position when the international quartet meets," our correspondent said.

She added that Palestinians are hoping Russia's move adds momentum together with the several other countries that have also recognised Palestine.

With the collapse of peace talks with Israel, the Palestinians have been talking up their options if impasse continues. One of the options is seeking recognition for a unilateral declaration of statehood.

In the past two months, there has been a string of recognitions by Latin American states including Brazil and Argentina, which some analysts say could be a precursor to a move by the Palestinians to seek full United Nations membership.

The Palestinians today say 109 states out of 192 United Nations member countries recognise their statehood.

Israel has warned that a "unilateral declaration" of statehood would set back the peace process.

"I'm sure that with the establishment of a Palestinian state, everyone will win - Palestinians and Israelis," Medvedev said.

In addition to the political significance of Medvedev's visit, at least three agreements were also signed between the leaders, and about $30m allocated to media, agriculture and sport in the region, ensuring a lot more Russian involvement in Palestinian nation-building, our correspondent said.

* Translated from English to English with copy and paste

What do you think the prognosis for the region is? Is this move from Russia and the previous ones from Latin-America actually providing for a sovereign Palestinian state or just more blah blah blah?

Reznov
18th January 2011, 20:15
Just more blah blah blah.

blake 3:17
18th January 2011, 20:42
It's more than blah blah blah. As I said in another related thread, the Palestinians are facing physical destruction aka genocide. This is part of a very broad world political situation, but I think we Leftists should be supportive of this move. It's a basic support for the Palestinians and a major eff u to the United States and Israel.

See also: http://www.jpost.com/DiplomacyAndPolitics/Article.aspx?id=201710 on Brazil allowing Abbas to start a Palestinian embassy in there. Most Latin American governments have said they'd recognize an independent Palestine.

Factional disputes and various other problems are major barriers to a just peace in the Middle East but this should be seen as a positive step.

See also: http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/jan/18/dmitry-medvedev-russia-palestinian-state

Crimson Commissar
18th January 2011, 20:45
Don't see how it affects us. If you're saying we should support Palestine, well.... Any sane leftist already does. If you're saying we should support Russia, then fuck off.

La Comédie Noire
18th January 2011, 20:53
How potentially destructive could a proxy war be between Russia and the United States be? Towards the end of the article they mention some material support for "nation building." I think it's good because the Palestinians could use all the help they can get and it would put pressure on U.S. Imperialism, but is it worth being a pawn of Russia?

I'm no good at analyzing geopolitics, I might as well be divining the future from tea leaves. :blushing:

Blackscare
18th January 2011, 20:57
Don't see how it affects us. If you're saying we should support Palestine, well.... Any sane leftist already does. If you're saying we should support Russia, then fuck off.

Slow your roll there snappy nuts, nobody said that.

This is, however, very good for Palestine. Whether or not we support Russia, I dare say all of us support the cause of the Palestinian people, and thus should be excited at any move like this that gives them greater legitimacy on the world stage.

blake 3:17
18th January 2011, 21:06
Janelle Monae's Cold War : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lqmORiHNtN4&ob=av2el

If you can't figure it out then Good Luck!

bailey_187
18th January 2011, 23:18
im becoming more convinced of Devrim's argument that National Liberation movements are often used as proxy wars by one imperialist power against another.

The Grey Blur
18th January 2011, 23:43
im becoming more convinced of Devrim's argument that National Liberation movements are often used as proxy wars by one imperialist power against another.
national liberation movements are made by the people and usually the working class of a nation. that these revolutions take place in the context of wider geopolitics or to the advantage of certain imperialists is undeniable, but it doesn't make them invalid, any less necessary, nor 'proxy' wars.

IndependentCitizen
19th January 2011, 00:47
Does anyone think this is more to do with their link with Iran, and to piss the U.S administration off?

Frosty Weasel
19th January 2011, 00:53
The Russian and U.S. governments are two neo-Liberal and Capitalist entities both seeking their interests in the Levant.

I highly doubt a proxy war will be born out of this.

gorillafuck
19th January 2011, 01:00
I don't think Russia has any connections to Palestinian national liberation groups.

Frosty Weasel
19th January 2011, 01:08
I don't think Russia has any connections to Palestinian national liberation groups.Eh, aside from Russian made tech and weapons finding their way to the groups via Syria I have to agree with you.

Appeasing Arab countries/groups to build Russia's influence maybe? It can't be oil, Russia has plenty of that.

blake 3:17
19th January 2011, 01:52
national liberation movements are made by the people and usually the working class of a nation. that these revolutions take place in the context of wider geopolitics or to the advantage of certain imperialists is undeniable, but it doesn't make them invalid, any less necessary, nor 'proxy' wars.

I think it is both. The occupations of Iraq and Afghanistan and the US's perpetual support of both Israel and Egypt means that they have a huge presence in the region and very close to Chinese, Russian and Indian borders. These countries have a very strong interest in not letting the US define whatever peace processes do occur.


Does anyone think this is more to do with their link with Iran, and to piss the U.S administration off?

What's being recognized is some version of the PA or PLO or Fatah, which is essentially secular. Hamas has much closer ties to Iran.

But it is an insult to the US government and intended as such.

Robocommie
19th January 2011, 01:55
I wish we heard more often from the PFLP. It always seems in the news like the PLO is either Hamas or Fatah, and of course there are more parties than that out there.

synthesis
19th January 2011, 02:35
Russia is an empire and it is playing chess. As much as I support the Palestinian cause, those are the facts as I see them. I don't know that Palestinians are ultimately going to gain from this.

The Vegan Marxist
19th January 2011, 04:33
Russia is an empire and it is playing chess. As much as I support the Palestinian cause, those are the facts as I see them. I don't know that Palestinians are ultimately going to gain from this.

Well, since the US is (possibly) altering their foreign policy on Cuba (http://www.granma.cu/ingles/news-i/17january-Statement.html), (again, possibly) due to a massive recognition of Cuba's right to independence (http://www.pslweb.org/site/News2?page=NewsArticle&id=14679&news_iv_ctrl=1261) away from US trading embargo's - knowing very well this recognition comes from both Socialist and Capitalist countries - I see the fact that more countries are recognizing Palestine as an independent State as a very gaining situation.

synthesis
19th January 2011, 06:20
Well, since the US is (possibly) altering their foreign policy on Cuba (http://www.granma.cu/ingles/news-i/17january-Statement.html), (again, possibly) due to a massive recognition of Cuba's right to independence (http://www.pslweb.org/site/News2?page=NewsArticle&id=14679&news_iv_ctrl=1261) away from US trading embargo's - knowing very well this recognition comes from both Socialist and Capitalist countries - I see the fact that more countries are recognizing Palestine as an independent State as a very gaining situation.

The fact that many countries recognized the ANC as a "legitimate" political entity did not cause that state to cease its brutal suppression of the ANC and its designation of the ANC as "terrorists." Conversely, the recognition by Russia of the Palestinian state as "legitimate" will not reduce Israel's military budget or halt Israeli irredentism.

If history is any lesson, Palestine has two roads towards national liberation. The first is a successful boycott and divestment campaign in the United States. The second is military intervention by China and Russia; in other words, World War III.

FreeFocus
19th January 2011, 06:31
To say that this is an "imperialist game" is disingenuous. That would be correct if this was a proxy war/conflict with elements planted and trained by two or more imperialist powers. This isn't the case. Palestinians have their own interests (i.e., not being bombed to death and ethnically cleansed) quite apart from geopolitical interests that imperialist powers might have. If imperialists back Palestinian statehood because of their own interests, it clearly isn't based on any sincere desire for justice or respect for Palestinians: it just so happens that there's an oppressed group, and seeing them get what they want falls in line with imperial interests. Does this invalidate the legitimacy of the Palestinian struggle against imperialism and occupation? Absolutely not. Absolutely not.

synthesis
19th January 2011, 06:46
To say that this is an "imperialist game" is disingenuous. That would be correct if this was a proxy war/conflict with elements planted and trained by two or more imperialist powers. This isn't the case. Palestinians have their own interests (i.e., not being bombed to death and ethnically cleansed) quite apart from geopolitical interests that imperialist powers might have. If imperialists back Palestinian statehood because of their own interests, it clearly isn't based on any sincere desire for justice or respect for Palestinians: it just so happens that there's an oppressed group, and seeing them get what they want falls in line with imperial interests. Does this invalidate the legitimacy of the Palestinian struggle against imperialism and occupation? Absolutely not. Absolutely not.

I'd say that this line of argument is itself disingenuous in many ways. What could Palestinians do to remedy their situation that has not already been done? How could it be remedied without assistance from another opportunist imperialist power?

freepalestine
19th January 2011, 07:18
All talk of 'proxy wars' is wide off the mark.that may have been the case in the 70s early 80s in Lebanon.anyway it's an occpation(etc) not a war.
The main point is that 1 country in the world-the USA is dictating terms and acting as referee between Isreal/Palestine ,whilst heavily supporting one side.
if Russia,Brazil,Venezuela,Cuba etc,for whatever reasons,are showing 'independence' away from u.s. hegemony.then so be it.

HEAD ICE
19th January 2011, 17:28
I don't see anyone saying that the Palestinian situation is a proxy war, but rather that Russia recognizing a Palestinian state is a political move that benefits themselves as an imperialist power. Russia isn't doing this because they feel sorry for the Palestinians but rather it is in their interests to see a weakened US-dominated presence in the middle east.

However, if the relationship between the USA and Israel does weaken I can easily see China rushing over to back Israel in seconds. Israel and China have made extensive military transactions in both technology and secrets. In fact, it would probably be more likely that Israel will ditch the US in favor of China in the future given America's slow downfall as the main world power.

Robocommie
19th January 2011, 18:33
I'd say anyone commenting that Russia is only doing this because they see it can benefit themselves is overlooking the fact that out of Russia's self-interest, Palestinians can benefit.

Frankly, their motive is irrelevant. If Palestinians get the support they need for a viable state and freedom from the Israeli occupation, then it's a good thing.

The Grey Blur
20th January 2011, 00:31
also some people seem to be missing the point that this isn't a new policy but just the affirmation that they are continuing an old soviet one.

Geiseric
20th January 2011, 04:48
I think it's just a move by russia to get another buyer of their several billion doller worth weapons industry.