Trotskyism

[ernestolynch]

Why is Trotskyism so unpopular in the Third World? Surely if Trotsky's writings were so influential and revolutionary, then why haven't the anti-imperialist movements in the Third World embraced them?

Trotsky, writing in Mexico in 1938, said "During the next ten years, the programme of the Fourth International will become the guide of millions"

As hard as I tried I found little evidence of this. Why didn't the Mexicans take up Trotskyism? Was he speaking to them, or to his devotees in the rich West?

Has there ever been a successful Trotskyist revolution? In over 70 years it seems a pretty poor record.

:unsure:

[Vinny Rafarino]

I can tell you why comrade Lynch, because Trotsky's "revolution" came to be once the bourgeois re-established themselves in the USSR. The people of Mexico already had enough bourgeois oppression and saw right through the trecherous lies of Trotsky.

Here's a good bio on Trotsky;



Lev Davidovich Bronstein (Leon Trotsky) was born in Yanovka, Ukraine, as the son of an illiterate Jewish farmer. Trotsky's father, David Bronshtein, had bought land near the small town of Bobrinets, and eventually he became a substantial landowner. During the revolution he lost his estate, but Trotsky set him up as the manager of a flourmill near Moscow. This is where his ties to the bourgeois elite began. To hide his ties to the bourgeois class from his comrades, Trotsky pretended to become an ardent disciple of Karl Marx. In 1896 Trotsky joined the Social Democrats and two years later he was arrested as a "Marxist" and exiled to Siberia. Four years later he escaped and reached England by means of a forged passport possibly supplied to him by a British Secret Service Agent that used the name of a jailer in Odessa's prison, Trotsky.

In London it is said that Trotsky was sent to spy on Lenin and other Russian Revolutionary thinkers and to gain their favour collaborated in publication their journal of Iskra (The Spark). When the party split in 1903, and Trotsky broke with Lenin, he gained position as a leader of the Menshevik wing of the Social Democratic party, as opposed to the Bolshevik one under Lenin, as an attempt to undermine the communist movement.

He proposed that Leninist theory would result in a one-man dictatorship.

In the abortive 1905 revolution Trotsky organized the first revolutionary Soviet council in St. Petersburg and was appointed president of the Soviet. About this time he produced the doctrine of 'permanent revolution,' which implied that revolution in one country must be followed by revolutions in other countries, eventually throughout the world. Knowing this would be impossible to produce, it’s easily speculated that he hoped the policy would be implemented to crush an already flailing Russian economy and morale so western imperialists can easily move in.

After the uprising ended he was again exiled to Siberia, and managed once more escape. How exactly he did this we can never know as only Trotsky knew the truth. Trotsky worked then as journalist in Vienna, and will here build the necessary bonds with the western bourgeoisie that will later lead to his exile from the Soviet Union He quickly “became” editor of Pravda (truth).

With the outbreak of World War I he moved to Zürich in 1914 and then to Germany, where he was imprisoned for opposing the war. The perfect disguise for a member of the bourgeois who needs to maintain a “Marxist” appearance. During World War I Trotsky led the internationalist wing of the Mensheviks in an attempt to again overthrow the communist revolution in Russia. In 1915 Trotsky moved to Paris, editing the socialist weekly Nashe Slovo, but he was expelled from France as a result of his pacifist propaganda. Or was it really just another perfect bourgeois plan to re-insert Trotsky back into the good graces of the Bolsheviks. After a short stay in New York as the editor of Novy Mir, Trotsky returned to Russia in 1917. Where he was unwittingly invited to join the Bosheviks in St. Petersburg and established the magazine Vperied (Forward).


Edit:

No wonder no real Latin American Revolutions care for the Trot's rhetoric.

[Cassius Clay]

Erm Comrade RAF, I'm as anti-Trot as the next remotly left-wing person but are you sure that article isn't a joke?

I wouldn't be surprised though, the only reason Trotsky got into Russia again in 1917 was because Woodrow Wilson personally allowed it.

Anyway ofcourse Trotskyism is only 'popular' in the west. What do you expect when every school child is bought up on how Trotsky 'Lenin's closest comrade', 'The brilliant leader of the Red Army', and 'Innocent victim of Stalinist oppression' while Stalin is attributed to Rape, genocide, world war and the Holocaust (not to mention Capitalist America was even motivated to do a movie with Aliens invading with uncanny similarity to those Reds in Moscow)? Or when every work of Trotsky or Trots like Alan Woods or Ted Grant are availabe in a college library while if you try to find Ludo Martens you have about as much chance as finding Saurons ring?


Ofcourse what Trots allways fail to mention is how precisly thousands of Mexican workers, students and peasants marched against Trotsky's presence in their country.

[Vinny Rafarino]

It is as serious as cancer comrade Clay. I always wondered how the trot escaped exile so many times...I figured he had to have help. Then we consider all the time in London, Vienna, Paris, New York, etc. Hmmm. Something has always been fishy about his time in thiose capitalist cities...He made editor in no time flat for the "socialist papers"...Sounds like he knew some kats with the right "pull".

Suddenly he changes lines in 1917? No big deal if he had not attempted to undermine the Bolshevics at every turn. Ever wonder why he worked so hard with the Red Army? He spent two years in the trenches with them gaining their favour! His intentions were clear. He had hoped to use the red army to overthrow the Bolshevic party (this has always been known) an establish a new government. I fing it odd that the Trot wanted to allow the nazi's to get almost to moscow prior to winning a coup battle with the Bolsheviks.

Seems to odd. Perhaps he was in league with Hitler far more than we are aware of.

[Cassius Clay]

Indeed comrade. What else will come out of the FBI archives on Trotsky's stay in Mexico we can only imagine. Anyway here's a article I found revealing the true nature of Trotskyism and Trotsky.



Recently revealed archives from MI6 have uncovered new evidence on the life and 'terriorist' carreer of Leon Trotsky. For years the view among historians and commentators has been that the charges levelled at Leon Trotsky were merely 'Stalinist Propaganda'. But now with the opening of MI6's archives American and Canadian historians are at the forefront of uncovering and exposing 'The Real Leon Trotsky'. The decision to give access to historians of MI6's archives was a difficult one, a MI6 spokesman said

''It was a very difficult decision. There has been debate for decades now on whether to open these archives. In the past it was felt that it would be to damaging to Trotsky's image. After all back then it was the Cold War, and we needed Trotsky's image to be a good one so he maintain some credibility. It wouldn't of done us any good if the truth had been known then. But now that the Cold War is over we feel it is time to let the public know the true and full extent of Leon Trotsky's crimes.''

And the few historians who have had access so far to the archives reveal that this is only the beggining.

''Without access to these archives we would of been fooled for many decades more. I can only say that I feel ashamed that our governments in the west which have spread this myth of Trotsky for so long do not coperate more. We have discovered alot from these archives, but there was one set of files they would not let us see. What lays in them we can only imagine.''

And unfournatly the British public and the world will have to keep on imagining. The still closed archives will not be opened until January 1st 2940. But until then historians will be busy uncovering the 'True Leon Trotsky' and exposing the 'myth' that has lasted so long. And they will have plenty to deal with. According to unconfirmed sources, Trotsky's links with the Ku Klux Klan and Winston Churchill have been 'without a doubt proved'.

Telegrams sent between Lord Halifax and Trotsky while he was in Mexico reveal how Trotsky dealt with the British Empire in crushing Indian independence.

''The British Empire represents Christain civilisation. It ought to be made clear to the worlds workers that this is the only progressive force in the world which will stand up to Stalinist Tyranny. Gandhi says he will go about protesting 'peacefully', I tell you now Lord Halifax that he will do no such thing. Gandhi and his goons are Stalinists and wish to set up a beuracratic elite system which will not only threaten the interests of Civilisation in India but also set in case a domino effect where the rest of Asia is victim to Stalinist repression.''

For historians this new evidence reaveals a 'new light' on Trotsky's personality and believes. Making favorable statements towards christianity when he had kept a Athiest belief in public is only 'the tip of the ice burg' to how far Trotsky has decieved the world for the last 70 years.

[Vinny Rafarino]

I can imagine the 600 factions of the Trot internationale are going to be in an extreme state of duress in the near future comrade.

I kind of feel sorry for them.

That being said, I still feel good that I made the correct decision about this traitor years ago.

I can only speculate that the Mexican communist party has been privy to this information for some time, but held it back for some reason...It would explain their reluctance to form bonds with Trot factions. I will ask my comrades in the communist party of Mexico their take and post it here.

[ernestolynch]

Ah but the 570 (sorry for the mathematical correction) varieties of Trotsky-Cults are all part of the various publishing empires. How the hell else would their monotonous drivel get published in huge print runs, on the finest, glossiest paper and covers money can buy?

I regard Trottism as a massive pyramid sales scheme. At the top you have the publishing magnates, beneath that the elusive 'Central Committees' or 'Execs', all private school educated toffs like Callinicos, Nineham etc. Beneath them the 'cadres' or branch-organisers, the ones who call out the 'foot-soldiers' to stand outside Tesco's on a Saturday morning trying desperately to sell gaudy and phrasemongering tabloid papers to an un-responsive public. Of course the papers never get sold, but to remain in favour of the cadres, sales figures are falsified and the poor foot-soldiers foot the bill out of their own pockets. This is in addition to the 10% of their wages they are expected to contribute to party funds.

Of course, in their defence, the foot-soldiers' motivation is not to 'get-rich-quick', but INTERNATIONAL SOCIALISM (NEITHER WASHINGTON NOR MOSCOW!), a pipe-dream which goes against the very tenets of Marxist dialectics.

Most Trot-Cult members burn out after 6-12 months, disillusioned by such antics and the scorn poured upon them by real working-class people, some of course become out-right Liberal Capitalists, and a very small number turn left and become Communists. The vast majority of the huge turnover of ex-Trots become apathetic, apolitical and haters of the word 'socialism' that the Trot fake-socialists espoused.

Small wonder that many believe that Trottism is run by the agents of the State - be it the MI5, FBI, whatever. They have crushed the dreams of many anti-capitalist thinkers in the west, and also, as witnessed in England, increased the vote of the Fascist BNP as well.

That's why I believe that Trottism is the enemy of true Communists everywhere.

[Saint-Just]

I think the main vehicle for Trotskyism is western propaganda. As a result Trotskyism is popular only in the west.

A lot of people in capitalist countries believe that Trotsky was a 'good communist', they believe that Stalin was sadistic and evil whilst Trotsky is the far more caring, loving, peaceful communist. They think that Trotsky stands for democrayc, individuals rights and freedoms.

[ernestolynch]

Then you had the ridiculous meanderings of the SWP/International 'socialists when the Imperialists were victorious in the German Democratic Republic in 1989.

They printed such crap like 'Communism is Dead - Long Live Socialism' - now it doesn't take a graduate in Marxism to realise what a load of bollix that statement is.

They (the upper-class rulers of the SWP and other Trot Sects) belittle the working class by understimating our intelligence to understand what the USSR was all about. "Yeah yeah man Russia's shit man, Commies are evil, look at Stalin, man, he was like, a Nazi dude. We're different, we're Socialists man, Trotsky was a great man".....ad infinitum.

While the Authorities of the Capitalist States rub their hands with glee at the anti-Marxist tub-thumpers working for them.

Who needs Fascist reactionaries to defend Capital when the Trots will do it for them?

[CompadreGuerrillera]

as much as I hate Stalin, there is an incredible truth to all this. Trotskyists are founded on nothing BUT seperating from the other parties. While typical Marxist, Communist-Socialist, Leninist, even Maoists, and Left Anarchists focus on uniting with some or ALL parties, Trotskyists exist today to deny unity. I have personally witnessed this in a demonstartion against the war. I was helping the Marxist's tents to get set up, and then working with BLACK FLAG(Anarchists) later on in the demo, and we both got nothing but arguments, how were "betraying" the revolution. LOL

You would think they want unity, but they dont. This is a sign that it was Trotsky that seperated, and "went forth and populated", his idiotic seperatist ideas.

This was my personal expirience(and I have more, if you guys want) on how Trots favor dis-unity, even today.

What a bunch of pathetic losers.

[Lardlad95]

You people make me laugh....trotsky's trecherous lies? Hilarious...

seriously though, is it all that serious? I mean serious to the point where he becomes a trecherous liar?

[Vinny Rafarino]

I'm sorry you're hurt Lardlad. Whenever you are betrayed it always stings.

[Lardlad95]

Originally posted by COMRADE [email protected] 30 2003, 08:58 PM
I'm sorry you're hurt Lardlad. Whenever you are betrayed it always stings.
betrayed? I can't be betrayed because I trust no one...I'd make the perfect Communist Dictator

[il Commy]

Originally posted by [email protected] 30 2003, 10:28 AM
Why is Trotskyism so unpopular in the Third World? Surely if Trotsky's writings were so influential and revolutionary, then why haven't the anti-imperialist movements in the Third World embraced them?

Trotsky, writing in Mexico in 1938, said "During the next ten years, the programme of the Fourth International will become the guide of millions"

As hard as I tried I found little evidence of this. Why didn't the Mexicans take up Trotskyism? Was he speaking to them, or to his devotees in the rich West?

Has there ever been a successful Trotskyist revolution? In over 70 years it seems a pretty poor record.

:unsure:
Trotzky predicted that the USSR will lose the WW2 because of the purifications (is that the correct word?) in the soviet state and especially in the red army. It almost happened, but because of the sanity of the planned economy and the will of the people to protect the revolution the USSR won the Third Reich. That happened inspite of the stalinist degeneration, not thanks to it.

The victory of the USSR was an excuse for all stalinist parties to support it. The soviet bureaucracy caused great reaction in the workers' movment, for example in Palestine by supporting the division plan, in Egypt by supporting the anti-communist yet anti-imperialist nationalist Abbed El-Nazer and in other places. The USSR was perceived as the model for a socialist society which reduced the support for the trotzkysts who criticized the bureaucracy of the soviet union.

But today the USSR has fallen just as Trotzky predicted. It took the bureaucratic degeneration few decades longer to destroy the achievements of the revolution and restore capitalism than Trotzky expected, but in the end it happend. The crimes of the counter-revolution lead by Stalin has benn revealed along time ago.

Almost all the progressive workers' movment recognize that the USSR regime was degenerated, both in the the range of lack of democratic rights and the bureaucratic plan of the economy from above and not by the people. Many progressive workers and youth search for answers why the USSR fell and all of October's achievements were lost, and they find answers in the analysis of Trotzky (such as in "The Transitional Program"). Alot of time after he predicted, though under the same circumstances, Trotzky's predictions come true with the fall of Stalinism in Russia. Now, under the first crisis of capitalism since the fall of the USSR, it is the time for the Fourth Internationale to become a mass party. You can see it in Argentina where Trotzkist organizations has a strong part in leading the struggle. I can see it in Israel where the 'Socialist Struggle' (CWI) organization growing every day, and many of the communist activist in the ICP turn to the viewpoint of Trotzkysm.

Bashing it and mocking it won't help anyone, Trotzkism is the true successor of Marxism-Leninism.

[Morpheus]

IIRC, the largest Trotskyist movement in history was in Sri Lanka.

[ernestolynch]

Originally posted by il [email protected] 30 2003, 09:20 PM
Trotzky predicted that the USSR will lose the WW2

Bashing it and mocking it won't help anyone, Trotzkism is the true successor of Marxism-Leninism.
Yes Trot predicted the USSR would lose the war against Fascism. After all he did his utmost to help the Fascist hordes invade and pleaded with the Soviet to bow down to Fascism.

He was wrong. He fucked up. His mate Hitler fucked up.

Trotskyism is not the successor of anything. It's dead. It died in 1940. It has been kept going by bourgeoise idiots in the West as a means to rebel against their rich parents.

Live with it. Move on.

[il Commy]

Originally posted by [email protected] 30 2003, 11:25 PM
Yes Trot predicted the USSR would lose the war against Fascism. After all he did his utmost to help the Fascist hordes invade and pleaded with the Soviet to bow down to Fascism.

He was wrong. He fucked up. His mate Hitler fucked up.

Trotskyism is not the successor of anything. It's dead. It died in 1940. It has been kept going by bourgeoise idiots in the West as a means to rebel against their rich parents.

Live with it. Move on.
Misinterpretating my sayings is fun right?

Trotzky didn't supported facism and called for workers to support USSR as a deformed workers' state on every stage he could. To say that Hitler was his mate is pure stupidity. He didn't support facism, he actually was the one to analyze it as the final defence of the bourgeois, in contradiction to Stalin who adressed facism as "feudal reaction".

He thought the USSR will fall during the war though because of it's deformatives, because of the assassinations of Stalin against the true bolsheviks and the heads of the red army, because of the degeneration of economy caused by the bureaucratic absolute control on it, because the lack of democratic rights which will make the masses mis-trust the system. He was only wrong in the term of "when?", he was correct in all other terms. The USSR was choked by the bureaucratic rule just like he predicted, only few decades later.

Trotzkism isn't dead and you calling trotzkysts "bourgeoise idiots in the West as a means to rebel against their rich parents" only means you can't deal with real argues and therefor decide to curse, it doesn't raise your value alot.
Actually the CMI has one of it's strongest sections in Pakistan and the CWI has a strong section in Nigeria, so that examples how Trotzkism has holds in the third world.
There are indeed many sectarist and centrist organizations calling themselves Trotzkyst, and maybe they realy think they are, but true revolutionary internationalists will always find their ways to the masses.

Trotzky had the correct Marxist analysis of USSR, Facism and WW2, and his writings are the instructions for the true Marxists-Leninists. A revolution can only be achieved by the Fourth Internationale sections, not by some Stalinist who still mourns on the fall of bureaucracy in the USSR or peasants with bad strategy who in the best situation will found a deformed workers' state and in the more possible situation will be crushed by the bourgeois ('Maoists').

[ernestolynch]

So, "Ill Commy" (why do you call yourself a communist if you are a Trockist?!?!?!) - Trotsky didn't like the old bureaucracy, eh.

What did Lenin call Trot (apart from Judas of course..) "unhealthily obsessed with the administrative side of things"....

Have you never looked at your tiny little sect and thought of the similarities to the Jehovah's Witnesses or the Moonies?

The charismatic leader, the glossy publications, the demands to sell the glossy publications, the pressure to convert new followers, the overwhelming 'born-again-ness' flush a new recruit feels - to the confusion of his/her friends and family?

At what stage are you into your Trot-Frenzy?

Trottism is nothing to do with Socialism, Marxism or Communism. It is a crypto-religious cult and needs smashing.

[Vinny Rafarino]

Look how adamant the Trots's little cult can be, comrade Lynch. They are far, far worse than the Jehova's witnesses. At least those kooks have no supporting proof one way or the other to justify their claims. We can have all the CIA and MI6 archives made public advising how the trot was a bourgeois double agent and you will still have these fanatics running amok attempting to punt their glossies to every 13 year old kid wearing a wallet chain and a Che t-shirt.


I see a cyanide-kool-aide camp in the near future for these fanatical freaks. You think Alan Woods will be the organiser? I can see this....He's almost as freaky as Koresh was.

[il Commy]

"why do you call yourself a communist if you are a Trockist?!?!?!"
Trotzkism is a part of the communist movment, whether you support it or oppose it. Trotzky was a member of the Bolshevik party and a senior minister in Lenin's goverment to remind you.

"What did Lenin call Trot (apart from Judas of course..) "unhealthily obsessed with the administrative side of things"...."
Lenin and Trotzky did had small differences of opinion, which is healthy for the party's function. Such titles as you've mentioned Lenin actually used more on Stalin. I can't quote right now things Lenin said about Trotzky, Stalin and Bukharin (Stalin's partner) because MIA is not working for some reason ("504 Gateway Timeout" it says) and I don't want to quote incorrectly.

"Have you never looked at your tiny little sect and thought of the similarities to the Jehovah's Witnesses or the Moonies?"
Those are just cheap slanders. First of all, I'm in the biggest anti-zionist youth movment in Israel Banki, connected to Maki (Communist Party) the biggest anti-zionist political organization. The movment has 1,200 people in it not counting the Hadash Youth people which are connected to us. The movment is declared Marxist-Leninist and isn't officialy Trotzkist, but the Trotzkist camp in it is pretty big.
Second, I see no connection between any Trotzkist and religios cults, we don't believe in any supernatural existance or something like that, this is again pure slanders.

"At what stage are you into your Trot-Frenzy?"
The way you talk about revolution comrades is simply disgusting, I must say. Though I don't believe in Maoism and don't think that peasantary revolutions can work today I still have repect for maoists.
Trotzkism is not a "frenzy" or any name you'll call it for the purpose of pure bashing, it is a revolutionary viewpoint, authentic Marxist-Leninist Communism.
And I have no idea what you mean by "what stage".

"Trottism is nothing to do with Socialism, Marxism or Communism. It is a crypto-religious cult and needs smashing."
Again, no real arguments, just slanders. Instead of "Trottism" (ha ha, not funny) you could easily write "Maoism", "Leninism", "Luxemburgism", "Stalinism" and any other part of the communist movment and you'll get the same results. You expressed no topical arguments, you just bashed and decried.

[ernestolynch]

Name me a successful Trottist Revolution then. Otherwise, 74 years of dead-end politics and fuck-all to show for it. Why are the Anti-Imperialist movements in Turkiye, Kurdistan, Peru, Nepal, Philippines, India, Colombia not Trottist?

Because Trottism is just a Western Bourgeoise Pyramid-Selling Religious Cult.

End of.

[Deniz Gezmis]

Originally posted by ernestolynch+Aug 30 2003, 11:25 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (ernestolynch @ Aug 30 2003, 11:25 PM)
il [email protected] 30 2003, 09:20 PM
Trotzky predicted that the USSR will lose the WW2

Bashing it and mocking it won&#39;t help anyone, Trotzkism is the true successor of Marxism-Leninism.
Yes Trot predicted the USSR would lose the war against Fascism. After all he did his utmost to help the Fascist hordes invade and pleaded with the Soviet to bow down to Fascism.

He was wrong. He fucked up. His mate Hitler fucked up.

Trotskyism is not the successor of anything. It&#39;s dead. It died in 1940. It has been kept going by bourgeoise idiots in the West as a means to rebel against their rich parents.

Live with it. Move on. [/b]
You are aware that Stalin was the one signing the treaties?

[Scottish_Militant]

Yes and proposing toasts to his health in front of the entire world, and being the main reason for Hitler attacking the USSR by &#39;purging&#39; the best generals of the Red Army (counter revolutionaries apparently, just like all of the old Bolsheviks)

Trotsky and the left opposition called for a united front against fascism, Stalin and co ignored this with the insane &#39;social fascists&#39; attacks. Lynch, you are an ill informed child and a complete hypocrite&#33;

And don&#39;t we already have a thread (http://www.che-lives.com/forum/index.php?act=ST&f=5&t=16078&st=0) for this discussion (although discussion is hardly the word when people like you and RAF are concerned)

[CompadreGuerrillera]

well, i think we can all deduce that Trotsky was a complete psychopath and an idiot, as was Stalin, theyre BOTH psychos, but fortunatley for us, the Stalinsists are DYING, and best of all, the Trots are DEAD&#33;&#33;

Nothing but good news for today&#33;&#33;

[ernestolynch]

Psychological Society warns of Trotskyist Cult, CWI (http://web1.mtd.com/csj.org/pub_csj/csj_vol15_no1_98/political_left.htm)

"Counter_Revolutionary" - aren&#39;t you in this sect?

[Vinny Rafarino]

As expected the Trots have attemted to turn this thread into another "trot vs Stalin" thread. Dispicable.


"communist" spin artist,

I have never met a person so completely full shit as you are, and I&#39;ve read everthing by Alan woods. You give a completely new meaning to the term "delusional fanatic" ....Perhaps it will be you adding the cyanide to the kool-aide rather than Mr. psycho himself....Alan Woods.


Good grief man, get some help&#33;

[YKTMX]

Originally posted by COMRADE [email protected] 1 2003, 02:41 AM
As expected the Trots have attemted to turn this thread into another "trot vs Stalin" thread. Dispicable.

&#33;
I think we have the right to do so considering the title of the thread, no?

[ernestolynch]

Which cult are you in, son?

[YKTMX]

Originally posted by [email protected] 1 2003, 06:21 PM
Which cult are you in, son?
I told you I wasn&#39;t a member of a party. Though I am thinking of joining the SSP.

[Scottish_Militant]

Lol, on the very next page they talk about stalinist parties :lol:

[crazy comie]

I Agree with the Trots.

[Vinny Rafarino]

Well I suppose someone has to sell those encyclopedias crazy "commie".


Mr. X,


From the tiltle of the thread you can deduce only that this is a thread to discuss the crimes of Leon Trotsky and the present and future dealings of his cult of fanatics.

Keep your hands outa my kool-aid man&#33;

[crazy comie]

raf you Know spin just means putting an oppinion on things not lying.

[Vinny Rafarino]

And what exactly is your point?

[crazy comie]

Originally posted by COMRADE [email protected] 1 2003, 02:41 AM

"communist" spin artist,
that

[YKTMX]

Originally posted by COMRADE [email protected] 2 2003, 10:23 AM


Mr. X,


From the tiltle of the thread you can deduce only that this is a thread to discuss the crimes of Leon Trotsky and the present and future dealings of his cult of fanatics.


Haha. Even you must admit the double standards there RAF, we should stay out the of the "crimes of Trotsky" thread, yet you and Cassius have made, what, 150 posts on the crimes of Stalin thread. Brilliant

[redstar2000]

Thank you, ernestolynch&#33; :D

The link that you posted...

http://web1.mtd.com/csj.org/pub_csj/csj_vo...itical_left.htm (http://web1.mtd.com/csj.org/pub_csj/csj_vol15_no1_98/political_left.htm)

is absolutely the most damning critique of "democratic centralism" that I have ever come across.

All it needs is a bit of class analysis to ground its views in material reality--easily supplied by me--and it becomes a standing refutation of all Leninist pretensions of any kind.

Absolutely brilliant&#33; :D

:redstar2000:

PS: Those silly stories about Trotsky being a police agent before 1917, etc. are beneath contempt, of course. Anti-Trotskyists who circulate that rubbish and pretend to take it seriously just make themselves look like fools.
___________________________

U.S. GET OUT OF IRAQ NOW&#33;
___________________________

"...a disgusting and frightening website"
The RedStar2000 Papers (http://www.sawu.org/redstar2000)
A site about communist ideas

[Edelweiss]

I&#39;m not a big defender of Trotzkyism, but it&#39;s just not true that it isn&#39;t populat at all in 3rd world countruis. As far as i know they play an important role in the factory squattings in Argentine for example.

[crazy comie]

All i can say is it is better than Stalinism

[Vinny Rafarino]

Crazie "commie",


You have yet to make a point in your reference to me calling "communist" revolutionary a spin artist.

As it is obvious you are out of your league, I will explain it to you. Not that I really care much but I simply desire you to quiet down,

A] I know what the term "spin" means in reference to opinionated or editorial related articles.

B] I suggest you read this thread again.


Mr, X


Haha. Even you must admit the double standards there RAF, we should stay out the of the "crimes of Trotsky" thread, yet you and Cassius have made, what, 150 posts on the crimes of Stalin thread. Brilliant

Haha. You will also notice they are concerning stalin unless led differently there X, you can post in whatever thread you like sonny-boy, you and you kiddie friends have made, what, 150 posts on the crimes of stalin thread. Brilliant.

[YKTMX]

Haha. You will also notice they are concerning stalin unless led differently there X, you can post in whatever thread you like sonny-boy, you and you kiddie friends have made, what, 150 posts on the crimes of stalin thread. Brilliant.

Scraping the barrel there are we not comrade.

http://www.gss.ucsb.edu/projects/hesse/works/idiot.jpg

You should read this.

[ernestolynch]

Is it a biography of Trotsky?

[YKTMX]

Originally posted by [email protected] 2 2003, 09:35 PM
Is it a biography of Trotsky?
By Dostoyevsky? Not too bright are we.

[ernestolynch]

Meh&#33; :rolleyes:

[Vinny Rafarino]

Read it trotty boy, read it years ago.


Scrapin&#39; the barrel are we not mio poco Iarrusu.

[crazy comie]

AS I said Trotsky was the best contender to hed of the party.

[Vinny Rafarino]

Good grief. Crazy "commie" you&#39;re from pluto.



But...but...but.....Trotsy was Lenin&#39;s best friend&#33;


I think Dr. Phil said that too.

[YKTMX]

Don&#39;t bring Dr. Phil into this, he&#39;s in a good place right now.

[Vinny Rafarino]

Nice one X.

[YKTMX]

You&#39;re not post whoring are you? I know I&#39;m not.

[Vinny Rafarino]

We would never do a thing like that now would we Trotzilla?

[YKTMX]

I know you would, you have 13.6 posts a day&#33;

[Vinny Rafarino]

Yeah, I post a lot. I have a reason for it. Don&#39;t worry jack, I won&#39;t be around forever. You dig? In this case here I simply noticed that the thread was pretty much said and done as we were merely flinging insults back and forth between ourselves without ever actually addressing the topic, so I got on a bit. As did you.

[YKTMX]

Originally posted by COMRADE [email protected] 3 2003, 01:45 PM
Yeah, I post a lot. I have a reason for it. Don&#39;t worry jack, I won&#39;t be around forever.
That&#39;s a bit morbid RAF. C&#39;mon what happened to the Belligerence. Don&#39;t be so downbeat, you&#39;ll dishearten me.

[Vinny Rafarino]

I was simply referring to being around the message boards my friend, I&#39;m too smart and sexy to clip myself. That would be a waste of genius.

[YKTMX]

Originally posted by COMRADE [email protected] 3 2003, 01:57 PM
I was simply referring to being around the message boards my friend, I&#39;m too smart and sexy to clip myself. That would be a waste of genius.
A big fucking waste

[crazy comie]

well who did lenin say he wanted to be hed of the party
answear trotsky.

[ernestolynch]

Give us proof then.

[Cassius Clay]

Who got less than 6000 votes out of over 725,000 votes cast? Trotsky.

Nevermind, just repeat what was said school.

[crazy comie]

I have forgoton the exact wording but its baisic drift is stalin is to violent and rash and trotsky would be a better candidate for premier. What he actualy said was 10 times as long and didn&#39;t use that exact wording .

[CompadreGuerrillera]

HEY&#33; Trots and Stalinists, give it a rest, you can go on arguing about who wouldve been a better successor, Stalin(wether he was or not) became the successor. Trotsky was killed.

Secondly, they were BOTH EVIL&#33; the both wouldve fucked up the Soviet Union, Stalin did. Trotsky wouldve as well, im sure of it.

AND NO&#33; this is NOT a Western Propogandist&#33;
From a pro-soviet veiwpoint, they would both be bad rulers, just me 2 cents,

[Sovietski Soyuz]

Originally posted by crazy [email protected] 4 2003, 03:13 PM
I have forgoton the exact wording but its baisic drift is stalin is to violent and rash and trotsky would be a better candidate for premier. What he actualy said was 10 times as long and didn&#39;t use that exact wording .
What you&#39;re referring to is a letter to the Politburo, from Lenin, that criticized all of the Politburo members. It&#39;s just common practice for people to quote only the anti-Stalin portion. :rolleyes:

[Cassius Clay]

This isn&#39;t over &#39;personalities&#39;.

Question. Where is Trotskyism popular? England, France and America, eg the West.

Question. Where does this support come from on the whole? Students and young people who have been taught that Trotsky was a &#39;Great Revolutionary&#39;.

Question. Where is Trotskyism not regonised as a viable solution to confronting Capitalism and building Socialism? The oppressed world where struggles are being waged which happen to be pro-Stalin, Hoxha or Mao. This isn&#39;t about &#39;personalities&#39; but because these people set about creating a example of socialism and have viable and correct theorys which are still very relavent today.

Question. Now that Russia and the rest of the USSR are &#39;free&#39; from the &#39;Stalinist beuracracy&#39; where are all the Trotskyite partys and the workers with posters of Trotsky calling for &#39;Permanent Revolution&#39; and &#39;Death to Stalinist beuracracy&#39;? No where, because workers aren&#39;t into theorys like &#39;Military discipline&#39; in factories.

Question. Who is repeating rhectoric and phrases aswell as the occasional peices of &#39;theory&#39; 70 years after they were proved wrong? The Trotskyites who spend their time quoting from whatever the History Channel or the BBC said about Trotsky and still deny that it was impossible to build Socialism in the USSR.

Question. Who is hated by the western media, who is the victim of scorn 50 years after he died by every Capitalist, who is the subject of horror stories that any school kid showing a interest gets thrown at them, who have all justified their actions based on anti-&#39;Stalinism&#39;? Josef Stalin whose name is atributed to more and more &#39;crimes&#39;, American TV declares proudly &#39;For 30 years the Russian people had a word for death. Stalin&#39;, and General Franco, Hitler, Churchill, Richard Perle and Saddam Huissein among others all come from the school of thought &#39;to protect freedom we must kill Stalinists&#39;.

[YKTMX]

Originally posted by Cassius [email protected] 4 2003, 07:03 PM
.
[
Question. Where does this support come from on the whole? Students and young people who have been taught that Trotsky was a &#39;Great Revolutionary&#39;.

I think that is a bit of an urban myth. When I was taught about the Revolution in school I was taught it wouldn&#39;t have mattered who took control, that the revolution was a coup and that Lenin was a bastard. The fact is, very few people give a fuck about left wing politics, so those who do have taken an interest in finding out about it for themselves. And the majority of those who have, have come out against totally against Leninism OR they support Lenin and Trotsky and denounce Stalin. I know you people have very little contact with working class people but probably to your shock, most can think for themselves, which is a flaw to you presumably?


Question. Where is Trotskyism not regonised as a viable solution to confronting Capitalism and building Socialism? The oppressed world where struggles are being waged which happen to be pro-Stalin, Hoxha or Mao. This isn&#39;t about &#39;personalities&#39; but because these people set about creating a example of socialism and have viable and correct theorys which are still very relavent today.

I know the fact that Mao is big in the first world is off great comfort to you so I won&#39;t try and dispute it. Hasn&#39;t it however occured to you that Maoist Peasant Guerilla warfare is popular in these countries because the oppressed tend to be Peasants? More out of neccessity I think that some grand ideological rebuttal of Trotsky.


Question. Now that Russia and the rest of the USSR are &#39;free&#39; from the &#39;Stalinist beuracracy&#39; where are all the Trotskyite partys and the workers with posters of Trotsky calling for &#39;Permanent Revolution&#39; and &#39;Death to Stalinist beuracracy&#39;? No where, because workers aren&#39;t into theorys like &#39;Military discipline&#39; in factories

The East is now in the hands of gangsters, chaos has taken hold in those countries. I am not suprised that Trotskyism is not popular is the East (though I have no proof that is isn&#39;t or that Stalin is any more popular) these people must shudder at the thought of radical politics and I don&#39;t blame then. Ofcourse, the hundreds of statues of Stalin that were pulled down mean nothing don&#39;t they.


Question. Who is repeating rhectoric and phrases aswell as the occasional peices of &#39;theory&#39; 70 years after they were proved wrong? The Trotskyites who spend their time quoting from whatever the History Channel or the BBC said about Trotsky and still deny that it was impossible to build Socialism in the USSR.

I know many Trotskyites, none quote the BBC or the History Channel.


Question. Who is hated by the western media, who is the victim of scorn 50 years after he died by every Capitalist, who is the subject of horror stories that any school kid showing a interest gets thrown at them, who have all justified their actions based on anti-&#39;Stalinism&#39;? Josef Stalin whose name is atributed to more and more &#39;crimes&#39;, American TV declares proudly &#39;For 30 years the Russian people had a word for death. Stalin&#39;, and General Franco, Hitler, Churchill, Richard Perle and Saddam Huissein among others all come from the school of thought &#39;to protect freedom we must kill Stalinists&#39;.

And, what is your point? Look, just because the Liberals or the Right Wing denounce Stalin aswell doesn&#39;t mean everyone who hates him is a liberal or right wing, surely that&#39;s not hard to grasp? I sometimes think that those who support Stalin do it out of some kind of desperation. They are fond of the cold war, of the idea of Marxism Vs Capitalism. That we should be nostalgic for such times, when two great ideologies went head to head. The fact is, Stalinism, beurecratic collectivism, socialism in one country, chauvinism. It was all bankrupt from the get go.

[crazy comie]

Originally posted by YouKnowTheyMurderedX+Sep 4 2003, 07:51 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (YouKnowTheyMurderedX @ Sep 4 2003, 07:51 PM)
Cassius [email protected] 4 2003, 07:03 PM
.
[
Question. Where does this support come from on the whole? Students and young people who have been taught that Trotsky was a &#39;Great Revolutionary&#39;.

I think that is a bit of an urban myth. When I was taught about the Revolution in school I was taught it wouldn&#39;t have mattered who took control, that the revolution was a coup and that Lenin was a bastard. The fact is, very few people give a fuck about left wing politics, so those who do have taken an interest in finding out about it for themselves. And the majority of those who have, have come out against totally against Leninism OR they support Lenin and Trotsky and denounce Stalin. I know you people have very little contact with working class people but probably to your shock, most can think for themselves, which is a flaw to you presumably?


Question. Where is Trotskyism not regonised as a viable solution to confronting Capitalism and building Socialism? The oppressed world where struggles are being waged which happen to be pro-Stalin, Hoxha or Mao. This isn&#39;t about &#39;personalities&#39; but because these people set about creating a example of socialism and have viable and correct theorys which are still very relavent today.

I know the fact that Mao is big in the first world is off great comfort to you so I won&#39;t try and dispute it. Hasn&#39;t it however occured to you that Maoist Peasant Guerilla warfare is popular in these countries because the oppressed tend to be Peasants? More out of neccessity I think that some grand ideological rebuttal of Trotsky.


Question. Now that Russia and the rest of the USSR are &#39;free&#39; from the &#39;Stalinist beuracracy&#39; where are all the Trotskyite partys and the workers with posters of Trotsky calling for &#39;Permanent Revolution&#39; and &#39;Death to Stalinist beuracracy&#39;? No where, because workers aren&#39;t into theorys like &#39;Military discipline&#39; in factories

The East is now in the hands of gangsters, chaos has taken hold in those countries. I am not suprised that Trotskyism is not popular is the East (though I have no proof that is isn&#39;t or that Stalin is any more popular) these people must shudder at the thought of radical politics and I don&#39;t blame then. Ofcourse, the hundreds of statues of Stalin that were pulled down mean nothing don&#39;t they.


Question. Who is repeating rhectoric and phrases aswell as the occasional peices of &#39;theory&#39; 70 years after they were proved wrong? The Trotskyites who spend their time quoting from whatever the History Channel or the BBC said about Trotsky and still deny that it was impossible to build Socialism in the USSR.

I know many Trotskyites, none quote the BBC or the History Channel.


Question. Who is hated by the western media, who is the victim of scorn 50 years after he died by every Capitalist, who is the subject of horror stories that any school kid showing a interest gets thrown at them, who have all justified their actions based on anti-&#39;Stalinism&#39;? Josef Stalin whose name is atributed to more and more &#39;crimes&#39;, American TV declares proudly &#39;For 30 years the Russian people had a word for death. Stalin&#39;, and General Franco, Hitler, Churchill, Richard Perle and Saddam Huissein among others all come from the school of thought &#39;to protect freedom we must kill Stalinists&#39;.

And, what is your point? Look, just because the Liberals or the Right Wing denounce Stalin aswell doesn&#39;t mean everyone who hates him is a liberal or right wing, surely that&#39;s not hard to grasp? I sometimes think that those who support Stalin do it out of some kind of desperation. They are fond of the cold war, of the idea of Marxism Vs Capitalism. That we should be nostalgic for such times, when two great ideologies went head to head. The fact is, Stalinism, beurecratic collectivism, socialism in one country, chauvinism. It was all bankrupt from the get go. [/b]
Can&#39;t say i disagree