Berlusconi finished at last??

[Red Future]

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/jan/14/berlusconi-under-investigation-underage-prostitute

[L.A.P.]

BUNGA! BUNGA!

We should look up to this man in the same comedic way we look up to Chuck Norris. While Obama is trying kiss everyone's ass, Berlusconi is snorting cocaine off of a hooker's ass.

[wunderbar]

I'd say good riddance, but with all the other shit he's gotten away with in the past, I might be speaking too soon.

[Comrade Wolfie's Very Nearly Banned Adventures]

I hope he's finished, but I doubt it, he does control virtually all the Italian media.

[Hoipolloi Cassidy]

I hope he's finished, but I doubt it, he does control virtually all the Italian media.
Ever heard of Nichi Vendola? He's a gay communist who's just been reelected regional president of Puglie, in Southern Italy. (I just came back from there.) According to the polls he has the best chance of any candidate to beat Berlusconi in the next elections.

[Thirsty Crow]

Ever heard of Nichi Vendola? He's a gay communist who's just been reelected regional president of Puglie, in Southern Italy. (I just came back from there.) According to the polls he has the best chance of any candidate to beat Berlusconi in the next elections.
So, what you are saying is that there is a chance for Italy to end up with a communist president...and what would that entail? Him dropping the political identification as communist in favour of "social democrat"? How would that reflect on concrete policies regarding austerity measures and labour struggles?

[Hoipolloi Cassidy]

So, what you are saying is that there is a chance for Italy to end up with a communist president...and what would that entail? Him dropping the political identification as communist in favour of "social democrat"? How would that reflect on concrete policies regarding austerity measures and labour struggles?

I'll post a full response when I've thought it through; just to answer your immediate points:

1) In terms of "political identification" Nichi's gone from membership in the Secretariat of the ICP to Rifondazione Comunista to his own party, "Left-Ecology-Liberty" without giving up his self-description as a Communist. A good deal of this is not "political identification" but political infighting. For one thing, he's an immediate threat to the social democrats, who seem ready to break the agreement for a primary of left candidates in order to deny Nichi the opportunity to run as a unified candidate of the left.

2) Far more interesting is his actual relationship to his constituents - his accomplishments and program. I won't go into the details, except to say: in order to understand what he's trying to do you're going to have to abandon a couple of cliches about the "backward," "rural" South and the role of industrialization in class formation; and about the role of ecology in all that. On many levels, Puglie is closer to Tunisia than to Milan. Not necessarily a bad thing, though it may be hard to swallow for your average privileged Northern European CP member.

[scarletghoul]

without giving up his self-description as a Communist.

I no longer define myself as a Communisthttp://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-11938665

[Hoipolloi Cassidy]

"I no longer define myself as a Communist," he says. Communism was a wonderful question but it was also a terrible answer. It was a great dream and a horrible nightmare.
"I would like to keep the dream and the question alive," he adds, "but I have no tolerance for the nightmare. An ideology that produced the gulags must be questioned with a great deal of critical spirit."


So, yes, he's a guy who describes himself as a communist, as no longer a Communist, as a Bible reader, etc., etc. He's also a person who protested against the old CP changing its name. Is he a very clever operator? Duh. Is he merely an opportunist? I'm not sure. At any rate, the article you quote is such a vicious hatchet job that I can't help wondering what he was really trying to say. ("I no longer describe myself as a member of the CP?"). Beware the ambush by the liberal press.


And thanks for the heads up!

[yobbos1]

Doubt it. The fucker's made of velcro.

[Comrade Wolfie's Very Nearly Banned Adventures]

Ever heard of Nichi Vendola? He's a gay communist who's just been reelected regional president of Puglie, in Southern Italy. (I just came back from there.) According to the polls he has the best chance of any candidate to beat Berlusconi in the next elections.

You ignore the fact that Berlusconi still retains control of the Media, which, if he loses any election will be used to undermine and destroy the coalition that replaces him. As he did with the Prodi goverment (2006-2008). Until the control of the Media is wrestled from his grip, Berlusconi will continue to dominate Italian politics, regardless of his offical position.

[costello1977]

I hope he isn't finished. In politics? Yes. But surely, this man must have a future in comedy, I mean he is hilarious. I wonder would it be so funny though if it wasn't so serious?

[S.Artesian]

Me? I think we should embrace the guy who hit Berlusconi in the face with the religious chatchka he had purchased.

[costello1977]

This man here..............

http://fun-gallery.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/10/Silvio-Berlusconi.jpg


Often makes me.......

http://www.lolblog.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2008/10/facepalm.jpg

Quite regularly, so......Has he quit?

http://t1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:gtD1KaqfUOaMgM:http://www.tccandler.com/IMAGES/actresses/KirstyGallacher/kirsty%20gallacher%20fingers%20crossed.jpg&t=1

FINGERS CROSSED!!!

[Hoipolloi Cassidy]

You ignore the fact that Berlusconi still retains control of the Media, which, if he loses any election will be used to undermine and destroy the coalition that replaces him. As he did with the Prodi goverment (2006-2008). Until the control of the Media is wrestled from his grip, Berlusconi will continue to dominate Italian politics, regardless of his offical position.

Most bookstores in Italy have a number of books by or about Vendola on display - which is already impressive considering the kind of lock the major publishers have on distribution in Italy. One of them is a sociological analysis of Vendola's latest electoral victory in Puglie, as much against the Center-Left coalition as the Right. The author's argued that his success owed a lot to cybermedia. As in Tunisia. As to Berlusconi's media, it's so pathologically out-of-synch that it can only hope to distract and ignore at this point. Knock on wood.

[Comrade Wolfie's Very Nearly Banned Adventures]

Most bookstores in Italy have a number of books by or about Vendola on display - which is already impressive considering the kind of lock the major publishers have on distribution in Italy. One of them is a sociological analysis of Vendola's latest electoral victory in Puglie, as much against the Center-Left coalition as the Right. The author's argued that his success owed a lot to cybermedia. As in Tunisia. As to Berlusconi's media, it's so pathologically out-of-synch that it can only hope to distract and ignore at this point. Knock on wood.

Perhaps, the South does tend to lean towards the left slightly more however. What you say may be true, but I'll wait for the elections to see just how effective electronic media is in defeating Berlusconi. It is interesting to note that Italy has one of the lowest internet usages in Europe (something like only 30-40% of households having access). Berlusconi has survived several criminal/personal/political crisies, he has proven himself to be adept at playing the system, and exploiting Italian sentement for his own personal gain. Unfortunatly for Italy, I doubt he'll be going anywhere soon.

[Hoipolloi Cassidy]

I'm simply noting that Vendola has a few good cards up his sleeve. One is, that it's not really about crazy Berlusconi, it's about a corrupt establishment (including the Left establishment), and Vendola's been very good at playing the outsider: the outsider from the Left establishment, the outsider from the North, etc.

On top of that - and this is really the crux as far as I'm concerned - he's put down fairly deep political roots, in Puglie and perhaps beyond. Here's a guy who was a Young Communist at 14, and who's trying to apply the same organizational pattern to his own party. He's created small but genuine political and social change in Puglie - it was quite striking, actually. It should be fun to watch.

[vyborg]

Comrades, let me tell you that in this topic information about Vendola and Berlusconi are very imprecise, to say the least...

the Berlusconi empire is in crisis, yes, but not for any merit of the left but because the bourgeoisie is annoyed by the fact that his government is not doing enough against the workers...

as for Vendola, he was never a communist, and for sure is not a communist now...in his youth he was a stalinist bureaucrat, now it is a mild social-democratic politician, clever for sure, but very right wing

[Comrade Wolfie's Very Nearly Banned Adventures]

Comrades, let me tell you that in this topic information about Vendola and Berlusconi are very imprecise, to say the least...

the Berlusconi empire is in crisis, yes, but not for any merit of the left but because the bourgeoisie is annoyed by the fact that his government is not doing enough against the workers...

I'd like some evidence that a mysterious cabal of Italian bourgeoisie are ploting Berlusconi's downfall.

[Red Commissar]

Ever heard of Nichi Vendola? He's a gay communist who's just been reelected regional president of Puglie, in Southern Italy. (I just came back from there.) According to the polls he has the best chance of any candidate to beat Berlusconi in the next elections.

I don't know, I've been getting the impression from various "left" sources that Vendola might very well be the Italian version of an "Obama" for the left. Maybe he won't, but I'm not holding my breath. What Vendola shows to me more though is that he was able to overcome the traditionalist, catholic-based politics but not much more.

As for Berlusconi, I don't know. It's good progress that the court rejected his previous claim to immunity from prosecution (for corruption and other charges) but now is the entirely different matter of whether the courts will proceed. Before Berlusconi claimed immunity by saying that by holding office he could not appear for court and thus court could not proceed. Now the courts can handle that claim and they could very well in some cases still "accept" that story in a sense.

After all there's plenty of clowns like Berlusconi running around who haven't been prosecuted, and they aren't even sitting in big political office like Berlusconi is.

Berlusconi's like a freaking political zombie. Just when you think he's out of the game, he rises back from collapse. In light of this, the achievement won't be so much getting rid of Berlusconi, but rather making sure his political career is sunk once he is out.

At this rate he might keep going until he dies.

[Hoipolloi Cassidy]

I don't know, I've been getting the impression from various "left" sources that Vendola might very well be the Italian version of an "Obama" for the left. Maybe he won't, but I'm not holding my breath. What Vendola shows to me more though is that he was able to overcome the traditionalist, catholic-based politics but not much more.

Don't know either, which is why I'm interested in finding out. Berlusconi's just a distraction: the problem isn't that he's a clown, but that a lot of Italians have a lot invested in that clown and what he represents - enablers, if you will. As for Vendola - as I said, having spent some time on his home turf recently, I'm interested in how he does it and what it means for the real lives of real, um, working folks. He sure has a lot more depth than Beppe Grillo...

[Salyut]

Italy's prime minister has said that the magistrates who mounted what he called a politically motivated campaign to oust him should not go unpunished.

Silvio Berlusconi has been summoned for questioning over allegations that he paid an under-age prostitute.

In a 10-minute - often angry - TV address, Mr Berlusconi said the investigation was unconstitutional and procedurally flawed.

He vowed to pass new laws to prevent magistrates pursuing elected officials.
(http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-12232265)

Not very subtle.

[human strike]

Even it is the end for Berlusconi, it's certainly not the end for Berlusconi-style politics. He in many ways he has been a visionary - spectacular corporate-totalitarianism. Berlusconi has only been the beginning I fear.

[Comrade Wolfie's Very Nearly Banned Adventures]

Even it is the end for Berlusconi, it's certainly not the end for Berlusconi-style politics. He in many ways he has been a visionary - spectacular corporate-totalitarianism. Berlusconi has only been the beginning I fear.

Indeed, I'd consider Berlusconi a more overt version of arch-bellend Rupert Murdoch, who is notorious across the English-speaking world for the influence his media empire buys him. Berlusconi simply moved from influencing the government, to being the government, however Murdoch is simply greedy, he has little interest in political power, however, one of his successors may not have such disinterest in politics.

[Sasha]

but murdoch is capitalism at its finest, while berlusconi is merely maffiosism at its finest.
murdochs monopoly serves the system while berlusconis ultimately undermines it. in the end that means that the system will destroy berlusconi but this being italy that will be later rather than sooner.
burlesconi is anyway just an noticable chapter in the corrupt history of post WW2 italy, he is just carying the plans designed by the P2 lodge that brought him in this position to its fulfilment, except he tailormade this scheme along the way to benefit himself mostly.
and as you know i'm not the one for conspiracy theories, esp conspiracy theories involing free masons but when it comes to P2 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Propaganda_Due) i'm pretty sure they still exist in some shape or form and so does this guy who wrote an decent article about it:


PROPAGANDA 2: Conspiracy Theory No More


http://photos1.blogger.com/blogger/7331/3251/400/aldo_moro01.jpg (http://photos1.blogger.com/blogger/7331/3251/1600/aldo_moro01.jpg)
Propaganda 2 (http://www.namebase.org/main1/Due-_28p2_29-Propaganda.html), or P2, is a Masonic lodge that acted as a shadow government in Italy from 1974 to 1981. Based on the principal that ideologies and values can be easily manipulated by commercial TV and a complacent press, P2 managed to seamlessly place its members in all spheres of Italian life and secretly shaped Italy's political and economic landscape with the backing of a select group of political and Industrial elite, the Sicilian Mafia and the American CIA.

Rumors of a Masonic lodge that involved Italy's highest powers had been spreading since the mid-1970, but still Italian citizens were in shock when a list of P2 members was revealed to the public on May 20th, 1981. The list contained about 900 illustrious names; among them were four ministers or ex-ministers, 44 members of Parliament, all the chief positions of the secret services, the head of the Revenue Guard Corps (Guardia di Finanza), high officials of the state police (Carabinieri), army officers, prefects, magistrates, bankers, entrepreneurs, newspapers’ directors, journalists, and so on. A week after the list was published, the ruling government was forced to resign.

The Manifesto of P2, titled Plan for Democratic Rebirth, was impounded on July 4th 1981, shortly after the discovery of the list of members, in the double-bottomed suitcase of Maria Grazia Gelli (daughter of the well known fascist Licio Gelli). The plan explained how P2 intended to “make use of financial aids” to enter the most diverse places of power: political parties, the press, labor unions, and the three branches of government. The plan explains in detail how to buy a considerable influence within the governing party of the time, the Christian Democrats. The part that concerned the press is particularly terrifying. P2’s plan was to position trusted journalists in the major national newspapers, so that they always presented a favorable image of P2 politicians and the P2 agenda. National, regional, and local activist press had to be infiltrated as well. TV would be controlled to manipulate public opinion and to lull the population into a submissive chorus of approval. Infiltration was organized among judges and magistrates, as well as among bankers and police officials of every rank. The aim was to set up an authoritarian government of privileges, anti-democratic, falsely populist, and reactionary.

http://photos1.blogger.com/blogger/7331/3251/320/licio_gelli.jpg (http://photos1.blogger.com/blogger/7331/3251/1600/licio_gelli.jpg)
To understand the history of P2, one should examine the biography of his leader, fascist freemason Licio Gelli. Gelli served with fascists in the War in Spain and had always been close to extreme fascist movements. His strong anti-communist stand and his ability to bond with the highest ranks of power led him to work for a few years for the United States’ CIC (Counter Intelligence Corps) and with the British secret services. Gelli’s most notable collaboration was with Gladio, the secret service agency heavily financed by CIA and NATO to counter Communist influence after World War II in Italy. Gladio’s methods were far from orthodox, and acted through the so-called "strategy of tension." The strategy of tension consisted in setting up terrorist attacks to be blamed on extreme left groups. Between 1964 and 1984, Gladio, whose existence and responsibilities were ascertained only in 1990, killed 149 people in 8 terrorist attacks.

When Licio Gelli founded P2 in 1974, he brought in Gladio’s techniques, principles, and influential friendships within the new organization. Some modifications were needed, though. Direct confrontations and attempted coups were replaced by a more subtle and deliberate occupation of the positions of power. For ten years, P2 was directly involved in all levels of Italian mysteries and scandals. These include numerous banking scandals (Banco Ambrosiano, the Vatican banking scandal), the kidnap and murder of Italian Prime Minister Aldo Moro, the assassination of activist journalist Mino Pecorelli, terrorist attacks like the bombing on the train “Italicus,” the Iran-Contra affair, the assassination of Swedish prime minister Olof Palme, and many more illegal economic maneuvers.

Although freemasonry was banned in 1981 and Licio Gelli is confined to house arrest, many fear that today P2 is as strong as ever. Many of the P2 members have kept their positions of power, and one notable member, businessman Silvio Berlusconi, has been prime minister twice in the past 12 years. Silvio Berlusconi’s amazing career bears all the marks of P2. From his humble beginnings as a singer on cruise boats, Berlusconi entered P2 and received all means of economic and political support from the organization. It is not by chance that Berlusconi built an economic empire in a handful of years without any proof of legal transactions. The right friends and a benevolent disposition for money laundering go a long way. Today Berlusconi is Italy's richest man and despite almost constant investigations into his shady business practices and his relationships with Mafia figures he managed to hold power longer than any other Prime Minister since World War II.

One mark of P2 lies in the way Berlusconi gained and held onto power: owner of publishing companies, radio stations, and three of the six major TV networks of the country, Berlusconi had all means of information on his side. In his 5-year government, the ex-P2-member managed to annul most of the laws, and thus most of the charges against him, for corruption and collaboration with the Mafia, as he advanced the cause of his own businesses over his competitors. In 1996, commenting of the program of Silvio Berlusconi's improvised political party, Fortza Italia, Licio Gelli affirmed that Berlusconi “took our plan for rebirth and copied almost all of it.”

Many historians believe that despite it's outing P2 has already carried out a slow-motion but successful coup d’etat. The tragedy is that the story of P2 is not the stuff of conspiracy theory. P2 is a fact of Italian (and American) history with names, dates and an agenda which can all be verified. The Plan for Democratic Rebirth has cost the lives of hundreds of people, destroyed Italy's economic competitiveness, tramped over justice and legality and disenfranchised Italy's voting population. Propaganda and corruption has slowly brought Italy down to the ranks of the "semi-free", according to Freedom House (http://www.freedomhouse.org/) , a non-profit, non-partisan organization that publishes a yearly survey on freedom around the world (for freedom of speech Italy ranks no. 77 (http://www.freedomhouse.org/template.cfm?page=204&year=2005)). Hopefully Italy's experience can serve as a cautionary tale for countries that also see the rise of strong economic and political powers with shared ideologies and the consolidation of media power, all of which render the press, the people and thus democracy, weaker by the day.
http://professionalfake.blogspot.com/2006/08/propaganda-2-conspiracy-theory-no-more.html

[Red Commissar]

P2 was connected to the operations of the Vatican Bank via Banco Ambrosiano. And then we have the case of Gladio which warrants discussion all on its own. It was amusing to see Berlusconi's name pop up in all of it.

Berlusconi from what I gathered tried to present himself as an "anti-politician" of sorts at the beginning, trying to appeal to populist sentiment particularly after the political scandals after the 1990s (ex Tangentopoli). He's ended up just as rotten, if not more, too.

[Crux]

Don't know either, which is why I'm interested in finding out. Berlusconi's just a distraction: the problem isn't that he's a clown, but that a lot of Italians have a lot invested in that clown and what he represents - enablers, if you will. As for Vendola - as I said, having spent some time on his home turf recently, I'm interested in how he does it and what it means for the real lives of real, um, working folks. He sure has a lot more depth than Beppe Grillo...
From: http://www.socialistworld.net/doc/4449


On another front, the rising star of the Italian left is Nichi Vendola. Former leader of the Bertinotian wing (right-wing of the party) during the last national congress of the PRC, and defeated by Ferrero, he left the PRC a year later to form ‘Sinistra e Libertà’ (Left and Liberty), which afterwards became ‘Sinistra, Ecologia e Libertà’ (SEL - Left, Ecology and Liberty), now also leader of the “Nichi’s factories”. A supporter of the alliances with the “centre-left”, and even the UDC (former ally of Berlusconi government), Vendola is nicknamed “the white Obama” and actually shares some features with the U.S. President. Besides an undoubtable personal charisma, Vendola, despite being a career politician (Vice-President of the Youth Federation of the old PCI, then deputy for four legislatures, and twice President of the South-Eastern Apulia Region), combines a certain charisma with some elements of ‘diversity’. He is gay and from the South, which in Italy means that his candidacy for leadership of the centre-left is seen by many as a revolutionary event. His left-wing populism, in some ways mirrored to Berlusconism, in comparison to Prodi or Bersani’s bureaucratism, makes him attractive in the eyes of his most loyal supporters, mostly young moderate progressives.

http://www.socialistworld.net/img/article/2010-08-13Grafik5823036259424931860.jpg Nichi Vendola, the rising star of the Italian ’left’



But his strength lies mainly in the fact that he has twice beaten the center-right in the Apulia regional elections, after having defeated the candidates of the PD in the primary elections. This is exactly what Vendola wants to do again now on a national level, by presenting his own candidacy for the presidency of the centre-left in the upcoming elections, a candidacy that part of the Italian bourgeoisie is using as a way to “make up” the image of Italian politics. Vendola has among his sponsors Don Verzè, the prelate master of important parts of the private health system (and a personal friend of Berlusconi), and is cultivating good relations with the Catholic world. At the same time as the battle was raging in Pomigliano, Vendola received applause at the Confindustria of Vicenza, and the praise of the President of Confindustria, Emma Marcegaglia (“He is the best governor of the South. My companies are doing excellent business in Apulia”). Shortly after receiving the official recognition of the Republic as President of the South-Eastern Apulia Region, he had already among his supporters Michele Santoro (journalist of the RAI, kicked out by Berlusconi, then returned to State TV) and ‘Il Manifesto’, an historical newspaper of the far left. This does not prevent him from running to the gates of FIAT to show solidarity with the workers, perhaps forgetting how in February 2009, visiting Genoa, he declared that “the metalworkers are thinking more about cocaine than about the FIOM”. Yet in the desert of the Italian left, his candidacy could attract the interest of many workers and left activists, drawn by his image and above all by his seemingly successful future. Especially since the Federation of the Left, while criticizing Vendola, is actually working for an alliance with him.

[Hoipolloi Cassidy]

Thanks. As I said, I'm also interested in Vendola's concrete achievements, just not how he's seen in the North - I notice that this article is only concerned with what Vendola says or does in Turin, Vicenza or Genoa, it's a little bit as if your typical English or American progressive was only concerned about how events in Africa are seen in England or the US. What does it mean to be a friend to Northern businessmen in Puglie - for instance, in Taranto, which has huge ironworks, the highest a pollution in Western Europe, and is considered one of the three most polluted towns on Earth? Vendola claims that the Regional Government's hands are tied - is that just more promises? Also, what about Vendola's answer to Berlusconi that it's in the North that the Mafia dominates: what's he done to fight the stranglehold of the business/mob/govt over local businesses in Puglie?