Challenge to the Opposition

[Pravda Soyuz]

Having recently visited Israel/Palestine for two weeks, i came across a great contradiction. You see, during the second wave of Jewish immigration, many socialists arrived in Palestine. Upon arrival, they established small settlements called Kibbutzim. In a Kibbutz, everyone is equal, everyone works and enjoys the fruits of their labors, and resources are divided according to socialist ideals. Water, food, chores, and housing is shared equally. Also, a spirit of cooperation exists between them. For example, one kibbutz might produce milk, and another might buy some milk to make ice cream. There is minimal (if any) competition (I spoke to a kibbutz member). So tell me, how can you denounce Israel when it is home to a shining example of pure communism. The best part is, it actually works, so next time someone claims that communism always fails, there is a specific example to contradict this. Kibbutzim are not a fringe element either, and there are many throughout the region. Most of the nations wine is made by communist labor. However, many "leftists" would see this destroyed because of the mistakes of the current Israeli government. So don't denounce Israel, denounce its government. I hereby challenge any leftist who thinks that Israel is an entirely bourgeois nation that needs to be eliminated to debate this with me.:star3:

[Fabrizio]

A shining example of socialism on land taken from Arabs who now live in refugee camps...?

[Wanted Man]

Having recently visited Israel/Palestine for two weeks, i came across a great contradiction. You see, during the second wave of Jewish immigration, many socialists arrived in Palestine. Upon arrival, they established small settlements called Kibbutzim. In a Kibbutz, everyone is equal, everyone works and enjoys the fruits of their labors, and resources are divided according to socialist ideals. Water, food, chores, and housing is shared equally. Also, a spirit of cooperation exists between them. For example, one kibbutz might produce milk, and another might buy some milk to make ice cream. There is minimal (if any) competition (I spoke to a kibbutz member). So tell me, how can you denounce Israel when it is home to a shining example of pure communism. The best part is, it actually works, so next time someone claims that communism always fails, there is a specific example to contradict this. Kibbutzim are not a fringe element either, and there are many throughout the region. Most of the nations wine is made by communist labor. However, many "leftists" would see this destroyed because of the mistakes of the current Israeli government. So don't denounce Israel, denounce its government. I hereby challenge any leftist who thinks that Israel is an entirely bourgeois nation that needs to be eliminated to debate this with me.:star3:

Well what is there to debate? There are co-ops in a lot of capitalist countries, and most of them aren't even built on ethnically cleansed land.

[graymouser]

The kibbutzim are small communes, many of which are not socialist at all but quite happily capitalist. They used to excite a number of leftists in the 50s and 60s - but with the horrifying behavior of Israel and the decay of any kind of "socialist" ideals in the kibbutzim themselves, they have been rightly ignored in the debate.

Even if they were perfect communism in practice - though they simply aren't - you cannot justify the policies that cleared the land and are trying to expand it by crushing the Palestinian people. Socialism cannot be built on mass oppression and dispossession of human beings.

[Property Is Robbery]

I don't think anyone on here has grief with most Israeli citizens but rather their Zionist government

[28350]

I don't think anyone on here has grief with most Israeli citizens but rather their Zionist government

Yes, the government, but it's not as if the entire populace opposes the government. There are plenty of Israelis that are bourgeois or reactionary.

[Pravda Soyuz]

You do have to admit, kibbutzim are a huge step in the right direction, how many entities have created pure communism?
As for kibbutzim being capitalist, those are a whole different thing, call Moshava.
The Israeli government is reactionary and ineffective, but the Israeli people have built the land up from nothing, while the Palestinians accomplished nothing in the time before the state of Israel. Also, if the Palestinians are in so desperate a situation, why don't the bordering Arab nations take them? In fact, Jordan kicked the Palestinians out!

[graymouser]

You do have to admit, kibbutzim are a huge step in the right direction, how many entities have created pure communism?
No one has to admit that. Kibbutzim have not created "pure communism," they were utopian communes that had some moderate success initially but now are either capitalist or heavily state-subsidized. And their very existence requires the mass dispossession of the Palestinian people.


As for kibbutzim being capitalist, those are a whole different thing, call Moshava.
No, kibbutzim are either generating income as small capitalist enterprises or subsidized by the state - there are no independent "socialist" or "communist" kibbutzim in Israel.


The Israeli government is reactionary and ineffective, but the Israeli people have built the land up from nothing, while the Palestinians accomplished nothing in the time before the state of Israel. Also, if the Palestinians are in so desperate a situation, why don't the bordering Arab nations take them? In fact, Jordan kicked the Palestinians out!
So you're making excuses for Israel based on the kibbutzim but when scratched you start hurling racist, Zionist legends about the development of the land? Bullshit. You're a Zionist through and through.

[RED DAVE]

You do have to admit, kibbutzim are a huge step in the right direction, how many entities have created pure communism?
As for kibbutzim being capitalist, those are a whole different thing, call Moshava.
The Israeli government is reactionary and ineffective, but the Israeli people have built the land up from nothing, while the Palestinians accomplished nothing in the time before the state of Israel. Also, if the Palestinians are in so desperate a situation, why don't the bordering Arab nations take them? In fact, Jordan kicked the Palestinians out!Yeah. Why don't we just kick out all the Palestinians and turn the whole place over to those socialist, ciivlized zionists.*

* Are you sure you belong here, SL?

RED DAVE

[A Revolutionary Tool]

You do have to admit, kibbutzim are a huge step in the right direction, how many entities have created pure communism?It's not "pure communism" and in fact there are some of these scattered everywhere. The USA has some even, doesn't excuse us for doing shit like invading Iraq does it?


The Israeli government is reactionary and ineffective, but the Israeli people have built the land up from nothing, while the Palestinians accomplished nothing in the time before the state of Israel. Also, if the Palestinians are in so desperate a situation, why don't the bordering Arab nations take them? In fact, Jordan kicked the Palestinians out!
Israel's development probably has nothing to do with the fact that the U.S. alone have given them billions upon billions of dollars in aid. The U.S. alone gives billions in aid each year. That's some myth you came up with that Israel, through it's own sweat and blood, just kicked out the backwards/savage Palestinians, and developed a whole country with such shining examples of pure communism that the whole of the proletariat can look towards it as a beacon of hope. And then you have the nerve to say Palestinians can't be in such a bad situation because the other Arab nations are building walls to keep the Palestinian people out!

[Pravda Soyuz]

Many kibbutzim are still socialist, how many of you have been on one? Also if the Palestinians are in such a horrible plight, why doesn't Jordan/Egypt/Lebanon/Syria take them? I do not support what Israel has done to the Palestinians, and in fact, this thread never mentioned them, I was just pointing out a shining example of successful communism. This thread isn't a discussion over the Palestinian people though.

[Pravda Soyuz]

Plus, capitalist Kibbutzim definitely are called Moshava, and there are many of those too, but they are a different thing.

[Pravda Soyuz]

Plus, did you know that the Soviet Union was one of the first countries to recognize Israel (formally)?

[Pravda Soyuz]

Oscar the Grouch, if you are anti-israel, why is your title in Hebrew?

[graymouser]

Many kibbutzim are still socialist, how many of you have been on one?
You mean the ones subsidized by the Zionist state, right?


Also if the Palestinians are in such a horrible plight, why doesn't Jordan/Egypt/Lebanon/Syria take them?
It is an elementary human right not to be displaced from your homeland by physical force, and the Palestinians have the right to return to their land. The passage of time does not justify land seizure by war crimes, which is how the Palestinians got into their current plight. (And yes, I'd support the cession of some US land to the Native Americans if they did not want to be part of a future American socialist republic.)


I do not support what Israel has done to the Palestinians, and in fact, this thread never mentioned them, I was just pointing out a shining example of successful communism. This thread isn't a discussion over the Palestinian people though.
Yes, it is. Your "shining example" of "successful communism" could not exist without the war crimes, the forced dispossession of the Palestinians, and the ongoing military support of the United States for what is effectively an apartheid regime. That is the cost of your "communist" Potemkin villages, which are allowed to continue to exist despite not being self-sufficient because they lure village idiots like you into dropping their opposition to the murderous Zionist state. There is no political question about Israel that can be discussed without talking about the Palestinian people.

[RED DAVE]

Many kibbutzim are still socialist, how many of you have been on one? Also if the Palestinians are in such a horrible plight, why doesn't Jordan/Egypt/Lebanon/Syria take them? I do not support what Israel has done to the Palestinians, and in fact, this thread never mentioned them, I was just pointing out a shining example of successful communism. This thread isn't a discussion over the Palestinian people though.The kibbutzim were never "a shining example of successful communism." What they were waqs a method by the, by socializing agricultural labor, the capitalist society of Israel was built up. They were, in fact, a form of state capitalism.

As has been pointed out elsewhere, capitalism is capable of employing virtually any form of exploitation to develop and extract surplus value. Capitalism in the West, for example, was partially built on on slavery. That didn't make the US a slave society like Rome anymore than the kibbutzim made Israel socialist. And, by the way, to have socialism in a capitalist society is a utopian fantasy.

RED DAVE

[Thirsty Crow]

Many kibbutzim are still socialist, how many of you have been on one?Have you ever been to one? And no, talking to a kibbutznik does not count.

OK, let me get serious now: this does not even resemble an argument. I've never been to Nazi Germany yet still I may know a great deal about it.


Also if the Palestinians are in such a horrible plight, why doesn't Jordan/Egypt/Lebanon/Syria take them?Why should those people be forced to abandon heir homes and their lands and to settle in a foreign country? And how do actions from respective governments you mentioned relate to the actual, concrete plight of Palestinians? I don't think you should even imply that the most important factor here are in fact these governments (rather than Israeli government and the whole colonial-settler project - utterly racist and bordering on genocide)

I do not support what Israel has done to the Palestinians, and in fact, this thread never mentioned them, I was just pointing out a shining example of successful communism. This thread isn't a discussion over the Palestinian people though.
This thread is about the kibbutz communes, and these were at the front of the colonial project. Moreover, these have upheld racist regulation against non-Jewish labour (throughout all its history).
Your ignorant sttuborness to engage with these aspects of the problem is really telling. Maybe you should reconsider your support regarding the Israeli government and the settlers.

[graymouser]

Plus, did you know that the Soviet Union was one of the first countries to recognize Israel (formally)?
It was a cynical ploy by the Stalinists to try and pull Israel into their sphere of influence in the crucial postwar Middle East scenario, which saw global rivalries play out in proxy scenarios for decades. It had literally nothing to do with questions of socialism or communism or anything like that; the Stalinists also entered into a military alliance with Nazi Germany in 1939, does that make the Nazis ok too?

After 1967, Israel essentially was turned into a military outpost for the United States, with the added bonus of an essentially hostage civilian population who are used for the sympathy of people like you.

[9]

Most of the points have already been made, but just to comment on this...

Many kibbutzim are still socialist, how many of you have been on one?
My parents lived on one. Kibbutz Shovall - its in the northern Negev, not far from Be'er Sheva; it had originally been part of the 1946 "11 points (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/11_points_in_the_Negev)" plan for expanding Jewish settlement into the Negev in order to establish a Jewish presence there just ahead of the partition. It, like all of the Kibbutzim, was a colonialist outpost and had nothing whatever to do with communism. Not when it was founded, not when my parents lived there 40 years ago, and not today.

And something tells me that either you haven't actually been to one at all, or you haven't the faintest idea what the word 'socialism' means. Or both.
Which Kibbutz did you say that you visited?

Oscar the Grouch, if you are anti-israel, why is your title in Hebrew?
That isn't Hebrew, by the way.

[gorillafuck]

So don't denounce Israel, denounce its government.How is that different? Countries are defined by their nation-states.


I hereby challenge any leftist who thinks that Israel is an entirely bourgeois nation that needs to be eliminated to debate this with me.Alright. Kibbutz are a form of racism and colonialism, they are built on colonized and ethnically cleansed land and continue racist policies.


Plus, did you know that the Soviet Union was one of the first countries to recognize Israel (formally)?I don't give a fuck where the USSR stood on Israel. The Stalinist USSR had a supportive stance on Israeli colonialism, oh I guess that makes it alright.

[28350]

Oscar the Grouch, if you are anti-israel, why is your title in Hebrew?

It's Yiddish.

[PilesOfDeadNazis]

Many kibbutzim are still socialist, how many of you have been on one? Also if the Palestinians are in such a horrible plight, why doesn't Jordan/Egypt/Lebanon/Syria take them? I do not support what Israel has done to the Palestinians, and in fact, this thread never mentioned them, I was just pointing out a shining example of successful communism. This thread isn't a discussion over the Palestinian people though.
Are you saying the Palestinians aren't going through anything? That they're perfectly fine with being removed from their homes in order to ethnically cleanse the way for the Isaeli nation?

If you speak up for a country built on racism, it's inevitable that the people who that country has forcibly removed will be brought up. Or do they not have a say because some Israeli "communes" fit your warped view of communism?

Also, sounds an awful lot like you're saying the Palestinian people are inherently horrible people("No one else will even tolerate those dirty cry-babies!"). Please clear this up for me if that isn't true.

[gorillafuck]

Also if the Palestinians are in such a horrible plight, why doesn't Jordan/Egypt/Lebanon/Syria take them?
That argument doesn't make sense at all.

[Pravda Soyuz]

It is a misconception that kibbutzim don't use Arab labor,In fact, the some of the ones that i visited supply most of their labor from nearby tribes and non-Jewish villages. Many West-Bank Palestinians work on kibbutzim.

P.S.- Oscar the Grouch's title was in Hebrew, he changed it within the last 10 hours.

[graymouser]

It is a misconception that kibbutzim don't use Arab labor,In fact, the some of the ones that i visited supply most of their labor from nearby tribes and non-Jewish villages. Many West-Bank Palestinians work on kibbutzim.
They hire outside labor - yet they are "perfect communism"? Get your story straight.


P.S.- Oscar the Grouch's title was in Hebrew, he changed it within the last 10 hours.
Do you seriously not realize that Yiddish uses the same alphabet as Hebrew?

[28350]

It was משוגענער
Transliterated "meshugener"
It means crazy person.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yiddish_language