Victims of Communism memorial

[The American]

How do you feel about the state-sanctioned "Victims of Communism" memorial?
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/5d/President_Bush_dedicates_the_Victims_of_Communism_ Memorial.jpg

[FreeFocus]

It's obviously just bullshit propaganda. Are there any memorials acknowledging the massive death capitalism has caused?

[Fawkes]

RINqibpWOzQ

[The American]

I scoured the internet for a slavery museum or memorial, and all I found was this

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/24/America's_Black_Holocaust_Museum.jpg

According to wikipedia, the Black Holocaust Museum shut down in 2006 due to lack of funding and hasn't reopened.

[Fawkes]

I scoured the internet for a slavery museum or memorial, and all I found was this

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/24/America's_Black_Holocaust_Museum.jpg

According to wikipedia, the Black Holocaust Museum shut down in 2006 due to lack of funding and hasn't reopened.

Hey, you're forgetting Black History month.

[Savage]

How can you be killed by something that is yet to exist?

[The American]

Hey, you're forgetting Black History month.

That's true, but the NAACP are the only ones who do anything in February for Black History month. The History Channel might show an hour long segment on slavery, and the tools on BET might pretend to care. I don't see the government encouraging remembrance of the millions who died in the transatlantic slave trade etc.

[Fawkes]

That's true, but the NAACP are the only ones who do anything in February for Black History month. The History Channel might show an hour long segment on slavery, and the tools on BET might pretend to care. I don't see the government encouraging remembrance of the millions who died in the transatlantic slave trade etc.

I was kidding ;)

[The Hong Se Sun]

I love how Bush is the one talking at a "victims of" anything. If that doesn't spell horse shit than nothing does.

[Red Commissar]

Political grandstanding. 'murica.

I believe some former "Eastern bloc" states in Europe also had similar things set up.

[The American]

I love how Bush is the one talking at a "victims of" anything. If that doesn't spell horse shit than nothing does.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AU7-5xd98ug
Its comedic gold

[Tablo]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AU7-5xd98ug
Its comedic gold
Love the comments on that video. xD

[The American]

Love the comments on that video. xD

"It includes Lithuanians, and Latvians and Estonians who were loaded onto cattle cars and deported to arctic death camps of Soviet Communism."
"It includes Cuban bolseros(?) who drowned escaping tyranny"
-George W. Bush

so many gems in there

[Robocommie]

http://www.usnationalslaverymuseum.org/
http://www.afriquejet.com/news/africa-news/multi-million-dollar-slavery-memorial-underway-in-new-york-2009052228095.html

There's a bit out there, but not that much. In any case, this anti-Communism memorial is disgusting. They won the Cold War and now they're just rubbing it in.

[The American]

http://www.usnationalslaverymuseum.org/
http://www.afriquejet.com/news/africa-news/multi-million-dollar-slavery-memorial-underway-in-new-york-2009052228095.html

There's a bit out there, but not that much. In any case, this anti-Communism memorial is disgusting. They won the Cold War and now they're just rubbing it in.

Oh good I didn't see that museum in the list of African-American related museums. At least there is something, right? It would be interesting to see if this receives any tax dollars

[Apoi_Viitor]

How do you feel about the state-sanctioned "Victims of Communism" memorial?

I'd only support it, if they renamed it "Victims of Leninism".

[The American]

I'd only support it, if they renamed it "Victims of Leninism".

Bracing for shitstorm

[KurtFF8]

In all honesty, I once stumbled upon the memorial on my way to a bus when I was in DC on route to NYC from Virginia. It's so ridiculously small and insignificant compared to most of the other monuments/memorials in DC that it's not really something worth worrying about.

Should it come up in the national conversation, of course we should show our opposition to this absurd thing. But it's not like a major attraction in DC or anything and is for the most part insignificant compared to things like the Glenn Beck show.

[Martin Blank]

At one time, we toyed with the idea of building a papier maché "Victims of Capitalism Memorial" to put next to it, and inviting the media to cover our "unveiling". Might do it at some point in the future.

[Nothing Human Is Alien]

A few years ago, the FPM made a "Victims of Capitalism" banner containing a number of slaughters and their death tolls. It was unveiled in front of the UN and marched to Times Square, where it was displayed for a few hours while hundreds of explanatory leaflets were distributed to bystanders. It actually got quite a bit of support and only a small bit of criticism.

[Dire Helix]

This should attract more people to communism if anything. If Bush denounces something, it automatically makes it good. That was probably the idea behind this thing. Bush has done a great job so far fighting anti-communism and will no doubt continue doing so in the future. Dare I say... comrade Bush.

[pranabjyoti]

Thanks to Bush for this job. Perhaps unknowingly (in his usual manner) he served the mankind a little by this way and PROBABLY WILL GET A LITTLE BETTER TREATMENT IN HELL FOR THIS JOB.;)
I very much like to see a "memorial" in any country of "Eastern Europe" and prostitutes before them posing to attract customers. AN WONDERFUL COMBINATION.

[Tavarisch_Mike]

This shit is lol, besides why did they have to make the statue into a women with a torch, doesnt that already exist? ;)

[hatzel]

There are all types of things like this in the former Eastern Bloc. In Riga they have...what's it called? I think it's 'the Museum of the Occupations', it actually has about the German and Soviet occupations. One of course a lot longer than the other one. However, if these countries want to put up memorials such as this, good luck to them! But I really don't think America is really in the position to do it...sure, there are people in America who find their ancestry in the former Soviet Union and other such places, and they, like those 'back home', might have this or that story about their grandfather or some other relative perishing in some Gulag somewhere, but something tells me they weren't the ones who came up with the idea of putting this one up. Nor do I think that just any old suggestion for a monument made by a group of people will ever see itself realised, with a president in front talking about it...

[Nothing Human Is Alien]

This shit is lol, besides why did they have to make the statue into a women with a torch, doesnt that already exist? ;)

It's supposed to be the Goddess of Democracy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goddess_of_Democracy) from Tiananmen Square.

[thriller]

With all the talk on this thread of Slave memorial/Black American Holocaust museum, what about an American Indian Holocaust museum as well?
They should call the museum "Victims of Power Hungry Assholes" Whether the "killers" claimed to be communist or not seems irrelevant IF what they care about is the death of innocent people.

[the last donut of the night]

I'd only support it, if they renamed it "Victims of Leninism".

http://t2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:6MkCW7jsCZha5M:http://home.zcu.cz/~topicz/Foto/Shut%20The%20Fuck%20Up%20.jpg&t=1

[PilesOfDeadNazis]

I'd only support it, if they renamed it "Victims of Leninism".
...really?

[Dire Helix]

I'd only support it, if they renamed it "Victims of Leninism".

Let`s go deeper than that and call it "Victims of Blanquism".

[TC]

How do you feel about the state-sanctioned "Victims of Communism" memorial?


How do I feel about it? It should be melted down to make make bullets to be donated to the Cuban Revolutionary Armed Forces as a symbol of U.S.-Latin American friendship delivered with a public apology from all living US presidents.

I had to walk past it every weekday for two years...

[Robocommie]

I'd only support it, if they renamed it "Victims of Leninism".

lol how does it feel to occupy the exact same rhetorical space as the most reactionary of right-wingers?

[Jose Gracchus]

Agreed. I prefer not to stand with Reaganites.

[gorillafuck]

How can you be killed by something that is yet to exist?
People need to stop getting mad at people for not knowing what communism is, you can't expect everyone to be interested in it like us. Honestly, the word "communism" is identifiable with the historical Marxist-Leninist movement to most people, regardless of whether you or me like it.

And that's not the point. The point is that it's capitalist propaganda.


I'd only support it, if they renamed it "Victims of Leninism".
So because you're anti-Leninist you actually support when Reaganites propagate against it?

Uhhh....

[Rafiq]

I'm an Anti-Leninist, but only in a leftist sense!

You fucking kidding me?

In the face of these pieces of shits, I would support STALINISM.

I am only against Leninism when among the leftist crowd. When we are faced with Capitalists, we have to be united together, we can't believe the bullshit just to be accepted by these mass murdering capitalist pigs like George W. Bush and Reagan.

[TC]

I'm an Anti-Leninist, but only in a leftist sense!

You fucking kidding me?

In the face of these pieces of shits, I would support STALINISM.

I am only against Leninism when among the leftist crowd. When we are faced with Capitalists, we have to be united together, we can't believe the bullshit just to be accepted by these mass murdering capitalist pigs like George W. Bush and Reagan.


Good for you (for the record a lot of people who support Lenin's historical and theoretical contributions such as my self are "anti-leninist" in the sense of rejecting the misapplication of some o/f Lenin's party tactics in contemporary western settings).

[Permanent Revolutionary]

It would be foolish to deny that there were victims of communism in the 20th century, but I think they were rather victims of totalitarian regimes, rather than communism itself.

But what about a Victims of Imperialism Memorial, eh?

[pranabjyoti]

It would be foolish to deny that there were victims of communism in the 20th century, but I think they were rather victims of totalitarian regimes, rather than communism itself.

But what about a Victims of Imperialism Memorial, eh?
Those are actually victims of imperialism. Because most of the people died in those "totalitarian" regimes are due to counterrevolutionary activities, sabotages and embargo. Actually the "totalitarian" nature is also a result of constant attack, sabotage and other factors caused by imperialism.
After all, when you are facing a strong army for a long time, you have to always on the toes and there wouldn't be more space left of conventional democratic methods.

[StalinFanboy]

Hey, you're forgetting Black History month.

And all the streets named after MLK...


It's a particularly lovely place in Oakland, Ca

[William Howe]

Communism is a political and societal belief, and not inherently good or evil. Communism has never killed anyone, but some leaders affiliated with communism struck up death tolls, though these are the exception, not the norm. Capitalism is an economic belief based around greed and love of money; all profit goes to oneself and there is no intention of sharing it. Therefore, capitalism is the only side one can logically associate with evil.

Also, I'd like to also see there be built a 'Victims of Capitalism' memorial. You know, those millions of Native Americans the West massacred, or hundreds of thousands of children killed in the Industrial Age by being overworked in factories and mines, or the masses of innocent peasants napalmed, raped, and robbed during the Vietnam War. Those victims, just to name a few.

[pranabjyoti]

Communism is a political and societal belief, and not inherently good or evil. Communism has never killed anyone, but some leaders affiliated with communism struck up death tolls, though these are the exception, not the norm. Capitalism is an economic belief based around greed and love of money; all profit goes to oneself and there is no intention of sharing it. Therefore, capitalism is the only side one can logically associate with evil.

Also, I'd like to also see there be built a 'Victims of Capitalism' memorial. You know, those millions of Native Americans the West massacred, or hundreds of thousands of children killed in the Industrial Age by being overworked in factories and mines, or the thousands of Japanese-born Americans attacked and imprisoned in the US during WWII, or the masses of innocent peasants napalmed, raped, and robbed during the Vietnam War. Those victims, just to name a few.
To go to Communism, you first have to establish "Dictatorship of Proletariat" and socialism after that. That means wiping of entire oppressive class. IT IS JUST IMPOSSIBLE WITHOUT BLOODSHED.

[PhoenixAsh]

There are all types of things like this in the former Eastern Bloc. In Riga they have...what's it called? I think it's 'the Museum of the Occupations', it actually has about the German and Soviet occupations. One of course a lot longer than the other one. However, if these countries want to put up memorials such as this, good luck to them! But I really don't think America is really in the position to do it...sure, there are people in America who find their ancestry in the former Soviet Union and other such places, and they, like those 'back home', might have this or that story about their grandfather or some other relative perishing in some Gulag somewhere, but something tells me they weren't the ones who came up with the idea of putting this one up. Nor do I think that just any old suggestion for a monument made by a group of people will ever see itself realised, with a president in front talking about it...


You should visit...very interesting.

Most interesting was the way how they tend to put the blame of the holocaust and jewish persecution squarely on the shoulders of the Germands....

...because...you know....offcourse nobody in or around Riga had anything to do with it. Hell...they didn´t even know about it. It all happend so fast you know... And offcourse there weren´t so many jews to begin with...so they hardly noticed. :sneaky: (/sarcasm)

To me it seemed they much prefered the Nazi's over the Russians....that was the general undertone of the exhibits.




However....if you strip the propaganda BS about the USSR period...and you manage to visit both the former KGB HQ in Riga and Vilnius...you do realize that it was pretty horrific. Bit on par with political prisoners in concentration camps or with Abu Graib...camp x-ray...

Not very nice and not something for anybody to forget. Ideology is all fine and well...but it can quickly lead to peoples nails being pulled out and electric shock therapy being applied....

[Permanent Revolutionary]

Well, not all think the dictatorship is a necessity. It just makes things easier and faster.

But I believe the dictatorship has proven itself to be a very bad method of achieving communism.

[Widerstand]

So because you're anti-Leninist you actually support when Reaganites propagate against it?

Uhhh....

Just like we should support mises.org in the face of Stalinism!



In the face of these pieces of shits, I would support STALINISM.

Yeah uh well, that's just sorta like your opinion comrade.



I am only against Leninism when among the leftist crowd. When we are faced with Capitalists, we have to be united together, we can't believe the bullshit just to be accepted by these mass murdering capitalist pigs like George W. Bush and Reagan.

Believe it or not, some of us don't find getting rounded up by Leninists preferable to getting rounded up by capitalists.


Good for you (for the record a lot of people who support Lenin's historical and theoretical contributions such as my self are "anti-leninist" in the sense of rejecting the misapplication of some o/f Lenin's party tactics in contemporary western settings).

Whatever an "Anarcho-Guevaraist" is, it suddenly seems very disturbing.

[TC]

Whatever an "Anarcho-Guevaraist" is, it suddenly seems very disturbing.

This is the second time someone has commented on my "anarcho-guevaraist" affiliation in a way that makes me think they think its serious...

Do people not get that its an obvious joke? If you click on the link to the userpage, its clearly supposed to be funny...so funny in fact that I added it as my primary tendency...

[Robocommie]

To go to Communism, you first have to establish "Dictatorship of Proletariat" and socialism after that. That means wiping of entire oppressive class. IT IS JUST IMPOSSIBLE WITHOUT BLOODSHED.

See, when you say it like that, you literally make it sound like you're going to be rounding people up in camps and just wiping out whole demographic groups in cold blood. It sounds really bad. You have to be more specific about "BLOODSHED" or else you sound like a psychopath.

[Robocommie]

This is the second time someone has commented on my "anarcho-guevaraist" affiliation in a way that makes me think they think its serious...

Do people not get that its an obvious joke? If you click on the link to the userpage, its clearly supposed to be funny...so funny in fact that I added it as my primary tendency...

Salvador Dali once told a meeting of Spanish Communists that he was an "Anarcho-monarchist"

[L.A.P.]

It's obviously just bullshit propaganda. Are there any memorials acknowledging the massive death capitalism has caused?

No, because they would need to buy a lot more land to make room for that memorial which would grow daily.

[Apoi_Viitor]

lol how does it feel to occupy the exact same rhetorical space as the most reactionary of right-wingers?

it feels good.

[Diello]

Jesus christ! I could have sworn that was a Photoshop when I first saw it; my brain just didn't want to accept it. (In reference to the "Victims of Communism Memorial.")


I scoured the internet for a slavery museum or memorial, and all I found was this

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/24/America's_Black_Holocaust_Museum.jpg

According to wikipedia, the Black Holocaust Museum shut down in 2006 due to lack of funding and hasn't reopened.

Am I the only one who's irresistibly reminded of this picture?

http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a256/Emperor_Diello/album3/10001484523432segregatedfountain.jpg

[Robocommie]

Though I do not support this memorial, I do not think anyone supporting it is necessarily a "reactionary rightwinger". Denouncing the crimes of Stalinism and refuting the identification of Stalinism with communism forms an important task today for Marxists as it is not just the right wingers, but the majority of the Stalinist-influenced left who continue to identify the Stalinist regime with communism.

I didn't say anyone supporting it is a reactionary right-winger, I said you share the same rhetorical space. And that should be pause for consideration for any leftist, quite frankly, because if you find yourself occupying the exact same position on the Soviet Union, Cuba and Vietnam as Reaganites, then at the very least a little self-examination is in order.

[Apoi_Viitor]

I didn't say anyone supporting it is a reactionary right-winger, I said you share the same rhetorical space. And that should be pause for consideration for any leftist, quite frankly, because if you find yourself occupying the exact same position on the Soviet Union, Cuba and Vietnam as Reaganites, then at the very least a little self-examination is in order.

According to Reagan, the Soviet Union, Cuba, and Vietnam are all communists.

According to you, the Soviet Union, Cuba, and Vietnam are all communists.

I think at the very least a little self-examination is in order.


lol how does it feel to occupy the exact same rhetorical space as the most reactionary of right-wingers?

Kind of like Trotsky. He denounced the Stalinist USSR, as did the Nazis. However, he should have just supported anything the Nazis opposed.

For example, most capitalists I know, say that they support laws regarding the restriction of child abuse. I know I shouldn't occupy any similar rhetorical space, so I usually respond with, "In a communist society, every child will be beaten."

[Robocommie]

Kind of like Trotsky. He denounced the Stalinist USSR, as did the Nazis. However, he should have just supported anything the Nazis opposed.

Well, given the fact that Nazi einsatzgruppen were massacring Soviet citizens, not to mention Jews, Catholics, gays and leftists from all over Eastern Europe, up until the Soviets helped stop them, I'm pretty sure Comrade Trotsky's condemnation was pretty damn irrelevant in that context.

And that's my entire point - the point you trotted around with sophistry by completely excluding the middle. Since I called you out on standing with the Reaganites in condemning the Soviets, obviously I must be in favor of opposing every single thing the Reaganites like, no matter how absurd the consequence. Sorry man, that dog doesn't hunt, and it's a dishonest argument to boot.

You'd rather stand with capitalists in opposing leftists of another stripe. Now, I get it, I do. You don't actually think the Soviets were socialist. Well, this is why you and I aren't going to really get anywhere, because I'd rather take an imperfect solution and work to better it than stand with Reaganites, who I know for a fact wanted to (and did, actually) make the situation worse on account of my fucking principles. I mean, I'm sure all the people in former Soviet states who are now dead or homeless because of the restoration of capitalism are so relieved that at least they're not being forced to receive free housing and medicine from a bunch of fake socialists anymore.



For example, most capitalists I know, say that they support laws regarding the restriction of child abuse. I know I shouldn't occupy any similar rhetorical space, so I usually respond with, "In a communist society, every child will be beaten."That's pretty fucked up, dude. Child abuse is wrong.

[Apoi_Viitor]

And that's my entire point - the point you trotted around with sophistry by completely excluding the middle. Since I called you out on standing with the Reaganites in condemning the Soviets, obviously I must be in favor of opposing every single thing the Reaganites like, no matter how absurd the consequence. Sorry man, that dog doesn't hunt, and it's a dishonest argument to boot.

Of course it is dishonest. It's just as dishonest as likening me to the Reaganites simply because I agree with them over an issue. Your original argument was completely based off of excluding the middle, by trying to frame this as a "you're either for us or against us" issue.


You'd rather stand with capitalists in opposing leftists of another stripe. Now, I get it, I do. You don't actually think the Soviets were socialist.

Well, I basically accept the Left-Communist view on socialism, but that's besides the point. What I was trying to point to, was the tendency of radical leftists to excuse the murders committed in the name of communism. The fact is, there are probably millions of innocent victims who died under socialist regimes, and simply arguing "well capitalism sucks more" doesn't vindicate it. Communists need to learn from and accept the mistakes made during the last century, instead of ignoring them or excusing them. Pointing out that 'communism' has its share of victims is not an idealogical attack, but a historical fact.


Well, this is why you and I aren't going to really get anywhere, because I'd rather take an imperfect solution and work to better it

Of course, and that's where we disagree. I believe Marxist-Leninism is a flawed ideology, and the result of its imperfections will continually lead to the insinuation of a capitalist society. It's sort of like capitalism, where you might be able to partially "work to better it", but that an alternate theory is necessary.


than stand with Reaganites, who I know for a fact wanted to (and did, actually) make the situation worse

Yet, another guilty by association argument...


on account of my fucking principles. I mean, I'm sure all the people in former Soviet states who are now dead or homeless because of the restoration of capitalism are so relieved that at least they're not being forced to receive free housing and medicine from a bunch of fake socialists anymore.

I agree with you. However I don't see how this affects my argument...


That's pretty fucked up, dude. Child abuse is wrong.

No shit.

[Robocommie]

Of course it is dishonest. It's just as dishonest as likening me to the Reaganites simply because I agree with them over an issue. Your original argument was completely based off of excluding the middle, by trying to frame this as a "you're either for us or against us" issue.

It's a victory memorial of the Cold War. Don't kid yourself that it's anything else or that it COULD be anything else. In this particular instance, it IS either with us or against us.



Well, I basically accept the Left-Communist view on socialism, but that's besides the point. What I was trying to point to, was the tendency of radical leftists to excuse the murders committed in the name of communism. The fact is, there are probably millions of innocent victims who died under socialist regimes, and simply arguing "well capitalism sucks more" doesn't vindicate it. Communists need to learn from and accept the mistakes made during the last century, instead of ignoring them or excusing them. Pointing out that 'communism' has its share of victims is not an idealogical attack, but a historical fact.

You're absolutely right, and I've made that same argument many times here on this forum and elsewhere. I've had just as many arguments with die hard Marxist-Leninists who are more fond of Stalin than I. But as I said, you're being silly if you honestly think this is anything but an ideological attack. As pointed out, where is the memorial to the victims of capitalism as an ideology? They will never build it, and it's that glaring absence that spells out the true intention of the memorial, and it's true purpose. Citing historical accuracy is completely missing the point, because they're being extremely disingenuous, and sincerity on your part isn't going to change that, it will only make you one more voice in support of them.

I mean, let's put it this way, you think anybody in the Bush White House cared that Christopher Hitchens used to be a Trotskyist when he wrote articles in support of the Iraq War? Hell no.



Yet, another guilty by association argument...


Well Apoi, you WERE the one who said you'd be down for it if it was only called the Victims of Leninism monument.



No shit.

That was a sarcastic jab at your expense.

[vDv]

That'll be some extra ammo for the bs lovers on the far right then.
It's hardly surprising seeing support and the economy slipping from underneath western governments that they would reiterate that "Remember don't get any ideas because the Alternatives are Murder!!!" etc.

[Permanent Revolutionary]

Is there any memorial in the US for the victims of Pinochet's regime in Chile?