No Socialist revolution for america?

[AmericanSocialist]

Hello,

I was thinking that eventually things will get so bad in the states that people would demand socialism. However recently I am becoming depressed with our current state. It seems that the Tea Party and the far right are so powerful amongst the people. We have many ignorant people who are poor yet are willing to arm themselves for the tea party (as they are under the illusion that the tea party and far right really give a shit about them). These people are very violently inclined. It seems like the states will never get the intelligence to accept socialism. Instead the common folk will rally for the tea party and far right and want to bring the confederacy back, segregation, and christian fundamentalism. Why are we devolving instead of evolving? Will the states ever give in to socialism?

[jinx92]

I think eventually there will be. If you look at the history of the US we've been becoming more leftist as time goes on. Look where we were at the beginning of the American Revolution politically, and where we are now. It may take America awhile, but it will happen.

[Delenda Carthago]

As long as you let opportunities like the shooting last week go unexlpoited, the Tea Party will rule,yes.

[graymouser]

There are people who don't want that kind of bullshit any more than you or I do. This is part of why we have to understand the country as being more than an amalgam of middle class white men; socialism in the United States can happen, but we need an alliance with Black and Latino people - and all people of color - as well as women and all other oppressed groups, all of whom have no interest in the far-right agenda. Together with the minority of white males who will go over to the revolution, I think there's enough basis for that coalition to be a real majority.

[Nothing Human Is Alien]

See:

- Great Railroad Strike and St. Louis Commune (1877)
- Homestead Strike (1892)
- Battle of Blair Mountain (1921)
- Wildcat strikes in the coalfields (1960's - 1980's)

etc.

[Permanent Revolutionary]

I believe one reason that Socialism isn't strong in the States, is the death of labor unions.
Workers in America must unionize, for socialism to rise again.

[Catmatic Leftist]

I think some poor whites have ancestry that traces back to wealthy plantation owners and slave drivers. Now that slavery (in the pre-Civil War sense) is illegal, they yearn for the past where they would have been at the top strata of society if slavery hadn't been abolished.

However, I think most of those who adapt far-right fascist ideologies were duped into them through cleverly concealed Nazi propaganda, such as anti-immigration; they appeal to the fact that they are struggling to make ends meet and scapegoat immigrants and "illegal aliens" that take unwanted jobs. They omit explanations as to why immigrants come to the United States in the first place (capitalist bourgeois exploitation, poverty, etc.) because they rely on that person not engaging in critical thinking so that they will submit to their racist and anti-semitic agenda.

But one good thing is that people in America are starting to accept minorities and LGBTs more and more. I think the best we can do is encourage equality and continue to expose right-wing bourgeois lies.

[the last donut of the night]

I think some poor whites have ancestry that traces back to wealthy plantation owners and slave drivers. Now that slavery (in the pre-Civil War sense) is illegal, they yearn for the past where they would have been at the top strata of society if slavery hadn't been abolished.


Maybe, who knows, my family is descended from Alexander the Great. Does that mean I should go on a rampage to set up a huge empire across Eurasia and then die of a fever in Babylon?

Your logic is a bit flawed. No doubt working class whites benefited (at least in some way) from the racial oppression in America, but your explanation makes no sense. Also, slavery was like, 150 years ago. Nobody really has a personal connection to it anymore.

[Q]

For the worldrevolution to succeed, North-America is an essential part, together with Europe. Like Europe though (and arguably worse) the working class in the US lacks organisation. The focus should therefore be exactly on that: To organise the working class as a class for itself. A class that is aware of its collective power. This can be achieved by political organisation (education), alternative culture and direct class struggle.

[Permanent Revolutionary]

I also think the socialist groups missed a great opportunity, to market themselves, when Fox News kept calling Obama a socialist and Glenn Beck railed on about a "Road to Socialism".
This was a golden opportunity, to tell the Americans what socialism is, because clearly they don't know.

[Catmatic Leftist]

Maybe, who knows, my family is descended from Alexander the Great. Does that mean I should go on a rampage to set up a huge empire across Eurasia and then die of a fever in Babylon?
I apologize for the ambiguity which lead to a glaring logical fallacy; I was talking about a possible scenario for poor whites who support right-wingers and fascists. I didn't mean to generalize ALL poor whites, as I'm sure there are many out there who are just as supportive of equality and social justice and other various left-wing viewpoints.

Also, slavery was like, 150 years ago. Nobody really has a personal connection to it anymore.
The Holocaust was 70 or so years ago. Nobody really has a personal connection to it anymore.
The Japanese Internment camps during WWII was 70 or so years ago. Nobody really has a personal connection to it anymore.
The Indian Removal Act of 1830 and the Trail of Tears were almost 200 years ago. Nobody really has a personal connection to it anymore.
:rolleyes:

[ExUnoDisceOmnes]

Also, slavery was like, 150 years ago. Nobody really has a personal connection to it anymore.

Huh, do me a favor and go up to an African American, talk about bringing back slavery and say the n word... see what happens.

On a related note, go up to a Jewish family and start talking about how the Holocaust never happened.

Then tell me that no one has a personal connection to it anymore.

[Burn A Flag]

I think eventually there will be. If you look at the history of the US we've been becoming more leftist as time goes on. Look where we were at the beginning of the American Revolution politically, and where we are now. It may take America awhile, but it will happen.

Hmmm I guess you could see it that way, but I think also dissent and rebelliousness in general has declined. After reading a bit through A People's History of the US by Howard Zinn it actually seems like there were quite a few violent uprisings back in the 18th century that were aimed at economic "levelling". Bacon's Rebellion, all the slave rebellions, John Brown's militant antirascist struggle, militant strikes and such pretty much until sometime in the 20th century.

Maybe what you meant was that most people have a more progressive mentality than then, and that is probably true. However, since to most people it looks like they have freedom even if they have shitty lives, they do things like random massacres and such (all the school shootings etc). What I'm trying to say is, dissent is much less militant than it was.

[ExUnoDisceOmnes]

Hmmm I guess you could see it that way, but I think also dissent and rebelliousness in general has declined. After reading a bit through A People's History of the US by Howard Zinn it actually seems like there were quite a few violent uprisings back in the 18th century that were aimed at economic "levelling". Bacon's Rebellion, all the slave rebellions, John Brown's militant antirascist struggle, militant strikes and such pretty much until sometime in the 20th century.

Maybe what you meant was that most people have a more progressive mentality than then, and that is probably true. However, since to most people it looks like they have freedom even if they have shitty lives, they do things like random massacres and such (all the school shootings etc). What I'm trying to say is, dissent is much less militant than it was.

As a student, I can testify that the American educational system is a machine which completely convinces all but a very small minority that Capitalism is the best or only option. The resources of the state are stupendous in this regard, making it very difficult to spread leftist ideals in the states.

If we hope to move forward with revolutionary action, the first target should be the youth, the school systems- education in general. Once people become more accepting of leftist ideals, we can really begin to move forward. Until then it will be a real battle uphill.

[Burn A Flag]

As a student, I can testify that the American educational system is a machine which completely convinces all but a very small minority that Capitalism is the best or only option. The resources of the state are stupendous in this regard, making it very difficult to spread leftist ideals in the states.

If we hope to move forward with revolutionary action, the first target should be the youth, the school systems- education in general. Once people become more accepting of leftist ideals, we can really begin to move forward. Until then it will be a real battle uphill.

That's 100% true. The propoganda espoused by my proto-fascist history teacher that I have to put up with is worse than normal. Her room is literally a Reagan shrine. No joke, there are like 3 pictures of Reagan and a Reagan calendar in her classroom. Also plenty of George W. too. She was telling all about how she read George Dubya's book and how much she loved it. I just can't understand how anyone who knows history is pro-USA. Maybe it has something to do with the fact that she has a maid and her husdband is a prestigious contractor for the department of defense. It's always support the troops!

I definitely hear you about the propoganda, even when teachers aren't hella biased dumbshits, just by teaching the pro-US curicculum given them they are promoting ruling class agenda. I wonder if I became a history teacher if anyone would stop me from espousing a pro left version of history?

[ExUnoDisceOmnes]

That's 100% true. The propoganda espoused by my proto-fascist history teacher that I have to put up with is worse than normal. Her room is literally a Reagan shrine. No joke, there are like 3 pictures of Reagan and a Reagan calendar in her classroom. Also plenty of George W. too. She was telling all about how she read George Dubya's book and how much she loved it. I just can't understand how anyone who knows history is pro-USA. Maybe it has something to do with the fact that she has a maid and her husdband is a prestigious contractor for the department of defense. It's always support the troops!

I definitely hear you about the propoganda, even when teachers aren't hella biased dumbshits, just by teaching the pro-US curicculum given them they are promoting ruling class agenda. I wonder if I became a history teacher if anyone would stop me from espousing a pro left version of history?

Thinking back on eighth grade, I realized that two of my teachers were leftists, talking about workers rights, etc. but without telling us that they were. They never got in trouble with administration. Of all the teachers that I've had, they were some of my favorites. At the time, I didn't know that they were leftists but I laugh to think back on it.

[Os Cangaceiros]

There are people who don't want that kind of bullshit any more than you or I do. This is part of why we have to understand the country as being more than an amalgam of middle class white men; socialism in the United States can happen, but we need an alliance with Black and Latino people - and all people of color - as well as women and all other oppressed groups, all of whom have no interest in the far-right agenda. Together with the minority of white males who will go over to the revolution, I think there's enough basis for that coalition to be a real majority.

The large majority of white males in the U.S. are members of the working class. They experience the exact same economic hardships that someone of a different racial category does. Many of them have retrograde beliefs, but so do non-white people. I was one of only three white people on my last job (construction), and I witnessed this firsthand.

Likewise, I'm skeptical of the idea that the basis of a socialist fightback in the U.S. rests on the organization of oppressed groups, who are categorized as such by the social discrimination they face. Issues related to social discrimination are important and need to be addressed, but organizing coalitions based on them doesn't seem to help anything other than cement someone's political identity as primarily something other than a working class person.

[Burn A Flag]

Thinking back on eighth grade, I realized that two of my teachers were leftists, talking about workers rights, etc. but without telling us that they were. They never got in trouble with administration. Of all the teachers that I've had, they were some of my favorites. At the time, I didn't know that they were leftists but I laugh to think back on it.

What if I followed the route of my current history teacher and turned my classroom into a leftist "shrine" with posters all over the wall of different revolutionaries and revolutionary groups? What if I was a bit more vocal about it? I'm actually curious to this, because I've recently been thinking that being a history teacher might be fun if I get to talk all day to young impressionable minds and build leftist values in the youth. At least two of my teachers as it is just talk about whatever they want for an hour that is unrelated to their class.

[Permanent Revolutionary]

It's pretty amusing to read about those right-wing teachers, 'cause in Scandinavia it's pretty much the other way around. Thankfully, I might add.

[Burn A Flag]

Everywhere has its problems, but it sort of adds insult to injury for me since history is my favorite school subject, and having such a reactionary teacher really bums me out. Is there really anything I can do about this other than suck it up or complain about it on the internet? Would it even be wise to refute something very biased she says?

[graymouser]

The large majority of white males in the U.S. are members of the working class. They experience the exact same economic hardships that someone of a different racial category does. Many of them have retrograde beliefs, but so do non-white people. I was one of only three white people on my last job (construction), and I witnessed this firsthand.
I have comrades who work in construction and they have broken me of the delusion that white male workers are going to be the core of the socialist revolution. But as I said, even if we win only a minority of these workers to our cause - which could itself be a tremendous number of people - we can still have a strong majority.


Likewise, I'm skeptical of the idea that the basis of a socialist fightback in the U.S. rests on the organization of oppressed groups, who are categorized as such by the social discrimination they face. Issues related to social discrimination are important and need to be addressed, but organizing coalitions based on them doesn't seem to help anything other than cement someone's political identity as primarily something other than a working class person.
That's not the case, and has never been the case, in actual history. It wasn't until after Black people organized around civil rights that you saw a revolutionary leftist fightback among Black workers through groups like DRUM and so on. And it radicalized a lot of Black youth - even if that radicalization didn't turn out to the revolution they thought it would.

And historically nobody in the US got anti-racist work down to the point of actual practice before the Communist Party's interventions in the '30s. Until that point it had always been this sort of abstract approach that you are tacitly promoting, downplaying the special importance of oppressed groups in the movements and making excuses for organizing only as workers. It was the CP that broke through and gained a mass Black following in the Deep South because they took on the issues of sharecroppers and lynch law (such as the famous Scottsboro case), and took on evictions and oppression in Harlem. Their method was far from perfect, but it was a sea change from the complete inability of the SP and IWW in earlier years to reach any kind of Black constituency.

[the last donut of the night]

Huh, do me a favor and go up to an African American, talk about bringing back slavery and say the n word... see what happens.

On a related note, go up to a Jewish family and start talking about how the Holocaust never happened.

Then tell me that no one has a personal connection to it anymore.

By "personal", I meant a contemporary connection, as in that people today weren't around 1830 to see, say, a slave auction. That's not to deny the very real experiences and the systemic inequalities and oppressions created by slavery. No doubt it affects us personally -- it does. What I meant was that nobody living today experienced American chattel slavery (of course, here I exclude sexual and wage slavery) as it was in the 19th century. Apologies.

[Os Cangaceiros]

I don't think that white male workers are going to be the "core of the revolution"...I think that the core of the revolution will be those on the bottom of the economic totem pole, regardless of race.

In regards to the rest of what you said: it depends on what you're aiming for. If you're aiming for reforms within the system (which I don't necessarily oppose...I've enjoyed my labor laws and albeit very limited protection just like everyone else has) then organizing by race or gender or sexuality is certainly beneficial. If you're aiming at the system then organizing by any other category other than the only one that can put the brakes on the machine is going to end in failure, in my opinion.

I'm well aware of groups like DRUM (having read Detroit: I Do Mind Dying) and the BPP, but however admirable those groups may be doesn't change the fact that I in no way feel that they could've spearheaded real revolutionary change (that goes for groups like the IWW as well, by the way).

[Jose Gracchus]

I have comrades who work in construction and they have broken me of the delusion that white male workers are going to be the core of the socialist revolution. But as I said, even if we win only a minority of these workers to our cause - which could itself be a tremendous number of people - we can still have a strong majority.

Could you expand on this, share an anecdote, develop your perspective? I quite frankly think if you manage to get 35% of white workers over to revolution, you can probably get to 60%. Its the initial 20-30% which will be the hard one. I don't think it would suffer from diminishing losses once you get over to the hump til more like 60+%. But that's just vague impressions. Basically I think you're right to regard the task as difficult, but I don't think its a question of 30 to 60 growth, its a matter of bringing over any substantial groups of white male working men over to socialism in the first place.

A bigger demographic question is how do we handle age?

[Savage]

I think the best chance for America will be if there's a successful revolution in the next 10-20 years in India or China which would force countries like America to increase production in their home markets, thus creating a much more likely environment for revolution.

[ComradeAV]

Hello,

I was thinking that eventually things will get so bad in the states that people would demand socialism. However recently I am becoming depressed with our current state. It seems that the Tea Party and the far right are so powerful amongst the people. We have many ignorant people who are poor yet are willing to arm themselves for the tea party (as they are under the illusion that the tea party and far right really give a shit about them). These people are very violently inclined. It seems like the states will never get the intelligence to accept socialism. Instead the common folk will rally for the tea party and far right and want to bring the confederacy back, segregation, and christian fundamentalism. Why are we devolving instead of evolving? Will the states ever give in to socialism?

Well Thats because there has been a strong history of hate for socialism in the US, since the mccarthy era. Labor unions and other radical groups have declined in signifance. I Really think it is our fault as socialists /communists/marxists/etc.... for not being very active and moblizing to educate the masses. People will not evolve on their own, we have to educate them and form a non-revisionist vanguard party that works in the interests of the working masses. Rightists have the capital and media , to be able to mobilize and gian influence among the masses. We don't have that advantage, but thats no excuse. We need to communicate with the masses in any way possible.

[ExUnoDisceOmnes]

Everywhere has its problems, but it sort of adds insult to injury for me since history is my favorite school subject, and having such a reactionary teacher really bums me out. Is there really anything I can do about this other than suck it up or complain about it on the internet? Would it even be wise to refute something very biased she says?

One time I was really pissed and did that to my history teacher... I corrected her definitions of different forms of socialism on her tests.

(they were like, Communism: A system where the state is oppressive and controls all means of production)

I'm pretty sure that my final grade immediately dropped a few points :blushing:

[ComradeAV]

One time I was really pissed and did that to my history teacher... I corrected her definitions of different forms of socialism on her tests.

(they were like, Communism: A system where the state is oppressive and controls all means of production)

I'm pretty sure that my final grade immediately dropped a few points :blushing:

I did that in my AP world history class last year when I had to define capitalism and communism. I gave the marxist defintions of the two words. However, I actually didn't get a bad grade. My teacher was impressed that I knew that, she was a very progressive and open-minded teacher, and she allowed for debate and discussion in her class.