Good God

[Amphictyonis]

http://marxwords.blogspot.com/

Does anyone have a copy of the full text of "The Russian Loan"?


"This Jew organisation of loanmongers is as dangerous to the people as the aristocratic organisation of landowners ... Let us not be too severe upon these loanmongering gentry. The fact that 1855 years ago Christ drove the Jewish moneylenders out of the temple, and that the moneylenders of our age enlisted on the side of tyranny happen again chiefly to be Jews, is perhaps no more than a historical coincidence. The loanmongering Jews of Europe do only on a larger and more obnoxious scale what many others do on one smaller and less significant. But it is only because the Jews are so strong that it is timely and expedient to expose their organisation" (The Russian Loan, in Saul K. Padover (ed.) The Karl Marx Library, Vol. 5, p. 221).

Is this (below and above) antisemitism or just fact?

http://www.jewishhistory.org/the-rothschilds/

[Turinbaar]

Historically the Christian establishment forbade charging interest on loans, but allowed christians to rely on jewish bankers to make the profits for them, in order that they can make money and use the jews as scape goats representing avarice later on. This is normal anti-semetic hypocrisy. It's exactly the same as a jew paying a goy to do his work for him on the Sabbath, in order that the jew may claim piety later on. As if God will be fooled or something.

[Amphictyonis]

Historically the Christian establishment forbade charging interest on loans, but allowed christians to rely on jewish bankers to make the profits for them, in order that they can make money and use the jews as scape goats representing avarice later on. This is normal anti-semetic hypocrisy. It's exactly the same as a jew paying a goy to do his work for him on the Sabbath, in order that the jew may claim piety later on. As if God will be fooled or something.

There is no god to fool :cool: I think, in Marx's time and even perhaps now, "Jews" may be in control of international banking (that sounds like right wing conspiracy theorish type idiocy but is it true?). It's historically false that Hitler seized all of the Rothschilds assets. I'd prefer not to give a shit what religion or race international bankers are- they could be from Mars and I'd still see them as scum. Anyhow, Bakunin was openly antisemitic....I guess the purpose of this thread is to ask if Marx was antisemitic (funny question seeing he was born a Jew).

[Turinbaar]

There is no god to fool :cool: I think, in Marx's time and even perhaps now, "Jews" may be in control of international banking (that sounds like right wing conspiracy theorish type idiocy but is it true?). It's historically false that Hitler seized all of the Rothschilds assets. I'd prefer not to give a shit what religion or race international bankers are- they could be from Mars and I'd still see them as scum. Anyhow, Bakunin was openly antisemitic....I guess the purpose of this thread is to ask if Marx was antisemitic (funny question seeing he was born a Jew).

Of course, I was speaking conditionally. And about jews and banking, I said that if their is any truth to it, it is true to the extent that the anti-semetic (and anti-interest charge) establishment had historically allowed for in order to sustain itself financially. At first it began as a simple doctrinal difference, and it later times it is the basis for conspiracy theory. I suppose Marx and Bakunin they could have been like that, but even in modern times people are glib about race and religion to get a cheap laugh now and then.

[#FF0000]

There is no god to fool :cool: I think, in Marx's time and even perhaps now, "Jews" may be in control of international banking (that sounds like right wing conspiracy theorish type idiocy but is it true?).

No. Fucking christ, no.

I don't know about "The Russian Loan" (I never heard of it, and I can't find anything about it anywhere) but the "Jewish Question" bit is like "this is the socially constructed identity of 'the Jew'", not "JEWS R GREEDY GUR GURGUR"

But a ton of people interpret that shit a ton of different ways. I don't think if it's outside the realm of possibility that a dude from Europe in the 19th century could be an anti-semite (even if he is Jewish himself), but I don't think it has any impact on the validity of Marxism.

[ComradeMan]

http://marxwords.blogspot.com/

Does anyone have a copy of the full text of "The Russian Loan"?

Is this (below and above) antisemitism or just fact?

http://www.jewishhistory.org/the-rothschilds/

It is anti-semitism but it has to be viewed in context too. Most of Europe was anti-semitic at the time, including Marx and a lot of early Marxists so some have argued that it is anachronistic to see their anti-semitism in the light of modern views- not sure I agree but I know what they mean.

Of course Jewish people were viewed as "bourgeois" and "middle-class" and did work in finance and diamonds etc in Europe- but, but-- historically many Jewish people had been forbidden to work in many sectors by anti-semitic and discriminatory laws- so it's a bit unfair too.

But on the whole, yeah, it's your typical "Jews are money grabbing, loan sharking bloodsuckers" type rhetoric and should be thrown in the dustbin of history.

[Amphictyonis]

But on the whole, yeah, it's your typical "Jews are money grabbing, loan sharking bloodsuckers" type rhetoric and should be thrown in the dustbin of history.

Agreed. As I said even if international banking was monopolized by people from Mars I wouldn't say destroy Mars I'd say destroy capitalism/international banking. You can't have a global capitalist system without international banking so it doesn't matter who's doing it it's going to be done one way or another.

[ComradeMan]

Of course they also forget that a wealthy Jewish benefactor "helped" the Russian Revolution too... unfortunately this was taken up by Nazi propaganda- completely ignoring the reason why a Jewish philanthropist would support a movement that was against the Tsardom- we'll just forget about centuries of discrimination and pogroms beforehand....

[danyboy27]

this website is a useless piece of trash.

even if Marx was really a racist an antisemitist or anything like that, it was the norm back then, a normal thing.

the founding father where racist and sexist has well, does it mean everything they have said in the past is completely irrelevant?

and what about newton? he was a fucking nut who believed in alchemy!

Hell, even the guy who fought against slavery in britain back then was reactionary by today standards.

[Obzervi]

Yes Jews have historically been money lenders, but this is mainly because they were forbidden by the Christians from engaging in any other form of work.

[RGacky3]

Karl Marx was a Jew btw, but yeah, its an anti-semetic premis, historically i.e. in the middle ages banking was done by jews mainly for religoius reasons, By Marxes time though, banking was not a Jewish institution. It was only really a Jewish institution before Capitalism when it was not nearly as important as land.

However cultural predjudices are slower to fade than economic realities.

As far as what he said about christ, yeah, they were Jewish 'money lenders' and 'merchants' but guess who they were exploiting, poor Jews. Thats like saying Mexican Bankers 'happen to be Mexican' so as we can see Mexicans are greedy, its a rediculous argument. Jesus was a Jew as well. Also at that time the whole system was ultimately ruled over by the Romans.

[Dean]

But on the whole, yeah, it's your typical "Jews are money grabbing, loan sharking bloodsuckers" type rhetoric and should be thrown in the dustbin of history.

How do you know this, then? On the Jewish Question is decidedly a pro-Jewish piece primarily because his thesis is to reject the anti-semitism of Bruno Baer. Baer argues that Jews have to emancipate themselves "seperately" from gentiles; Marx argues that their emancipation is no different from that of any other people's.

Why should we trust the above, more offensive quote? Let's see what others have said on it:

"From Kevin Anderson’s new book Marx at the Margins (Chigago University Press 2010):"

“Padover has created a convenient digest of the problematic discussion by Marx on Judaism and Jews (KML, 5, 169-225). Padover however errs when he attributes to Marx ‘The Russian Loan’, a particularly noxious Tribune article about Jewish bankers published on January 4, 1856 (KML,5,221-5). In ‘Die Mitarbeit von Marx und Engels an der New York Tribune’ (2001) an illuminating essay that forms part of the apparatus to MEGA I/14, the volumes’ editors (Hans-Jurgen Bockinski and Martin Hundt, with Ute Emmrich and Manfred Neuhaus) write that the earlier attributions of ‘The Russian Loan’ to Marx can ‘Definitely be ruled out’, this on the basis of a close textual analysis.”

http://thecommune.co.uk/2010/09/14/marx-bakunin-and-the-question-of-authoritarianism/

Unsurprising: more lies.