I am very curious about this

[727Goon]

I was lurking the other day and I came across some thread about rape. It seemed a small but vocal minority seemed to believe that all sex without expressed verbal consent at every step is rape. And I'm not trying to judge yall, but this question had been bugging me all day: Is that how radicals really fuck? Honestly, is that how you guys really get down? Expressed verbal consent at every step? I'm not judging anyone here, I'm genuinely wondering if this is how you guys do.

By the way I would have put this in chit-chat, but this is RevLeft so I figure it will become a political conversation sooner than later.

[¿Que?]

No, but if the chic (or man) regrets it later, you're fucked (figuratively). That's why before you do it, you better make sure the person is someone whom both of you share a real bond.

[Vladimir Innit Lenin]

No, the OP is ridiculous. There is no 'revolutionary code to sex'.

But, if like our white haired Australian 'friend', you allegedly fuck someone whilst they're sleeping without a condom, when you know that to be against their wishes, then you should expect to get fucked up for it. Probably not the most intelligent thing to have allegedly done if you're pretty much in the crosshairs of the intelligence services already.

[jinx92]

Is that how radicals really fuck?.

Of course, haven't you politically radicalized your sex life as well?

[Meridian]

No, luckily most of us see the difference between consensual sex of all kinds and rape.

[Pretty Flaco]

I ask for consent between each thrust.

[gorillafuck]

I know what thread you're talking about.

That was some psuedo-feminist leftists who think that women are stupid and need to be treated like children. Luckily that's a very small minority here.

[Nolan]

I ask for consent between each thrust.

I don't ask for it but I get it.

[9]

No, but if the chic (or man) regrets it later, you're fucked (figuratively).

why?

[Fawkes]

No, but if the chic (or man) regrets it later, you're fucked (figuratively). That's why before you do it, you better make sure the person is someone whom both of you share a real bond.

No, if legitimate consent was given, it doesn't matter how any of the people involved feel afterword provided everything that was done fit into the realm of what was previously consented to. In other words, if you said yeah and you weren't forced into it or blitzed out of your mind (when the other person(s) was sober), you can't pin it on anyone.

It's sex, you don't need a bond for it.

Also, not to come across as a total overly PC douche, cause I'm definitely not (overly pc that is, I'm totally a douche), but in future maybe just check it a little with the word "chick".


I ask for consent between each thrust.
I was gonna try to post some dumb witty comment, but I can't now, that was awesome.

[¿Que?]

No, if legitimate consent was given, it doesn't matter how any of the people involved feel afterword provided everything that was done fit into the realm of what was previously consented to. In other words, if you said yeah and you weren't forced into it or blitzed out of your mind (when the other person(s) was sober), you can't pin it on anyone.

It's sex, you don't need a bond for it.

Also, not to come across as a total overly PC douche, cause I'm definitely not (overly pc that is, I'm totally a douche), but in future maybe just check it a little with the word "chick".

I agree with the chick thing, but manipulative behavior is not so black and white, and actually, generally speaking is a very gray area. It is quite common that men think of women as having to break down their defenses and talk them into sex. This often results in very unsatisfying sex and usually remorse and regret later. This too me is not too far off from rape, if actual rape using psychological manipulation as opposed to straight up force. Sorry, but I disagree.

EDIT: How the people feel afterward has everything to do with it.

[9]

It is quite common that men think of women as having to break down their defenses and talk them into sex. This often results in very unsatisfying sex and usually remorse and regret later. This too me is not too far off from rape, if actual rape using psychological manipulation as opposed to straight up force. Sorry, but I disagree.
No, it isn't. Unsatisfying consensual sex, or consensual sex that one later regrets, is not rape, simple as. And its disgusting and offensive to suggest otherwise.


EDIT: How the people feel afterward has everything to do with it.No it doesn't.

[Fawkes]

I agree with the chick thing, but manipulative behavior is not so black and white, and actually, generally speaking is a very gray area. It is quite common that men think of women as having to break down their defenses and talk them into sex. This often results in very unsatisfying sex and usually remorse and regret later. This too me is not too far off from rape, if actual rape using psychological manipulation as opposed to straight up force. Sorry, but I disagree.

Of course psychological manipulation facilitates and can lead to rape, but that doesn't mean that just because someone regrets something in retrospect it should be classified as rape. You can easily be of sound mind and be perfectly content with what it is that you're doing and later go on to regret it. Just because a woman (it can just as easily be the other way around) regrets having had sex with a man does not mean he psychologically broke her down or manipulated her, though it obviously is a very real possibility that he did indeed do that.

Yeah, it's definitely not black and white, but stating or implying that any form of regret is indicative of manipulative or abusive behavior is dangerous, not to mention ill founded.

Edit:

EDIT: How the people feel afterward has everything to do with it.
If a guy spent an hour trying to get it up and then came in 5 seconds, chances are the other person(s) involved aren't gonna feel too satisfied and may regret their initial decision. That doesn't mean Mr. Impotence is a rapist.

[synthesis]

Of course psychological manipulation is a form of rape, or at least facilitates it

Just for clarification, how do you define "rape"? (I mean that in the most neutral way possible, simply so that the discussion can proceed productively.)

[¿Que?]

To both 9 and Fawkes, you're dwelling on the wrong idea. It's not about how satisfied with it you are. I simply said that those situations, the "rape culture", as in not exactly using sexual violence, but using male aggressive behavior, the threat of violence or rejection or manipulation that I'm talking about. Shit, the sex could be great, but it could still be rape in the sense I'm talking about. Although in these types of situations, it usually isn't.

[¿Que?]

Or vice a versa, the sex could be awful, but if you have the bond to work through those unsatisfactory or hurt feelings, then it's not rape.

[Fawkes]

Just for clarification, how do you define "rape"? (I mean that in the most neutral way possible, simply so that the discussion can proceed productively.)

Yeah, I worded that wrong, I meant that psychological manipulation facilitates and leads to rape. Any non-consensual sexual act committed upon another with or without force or threat of it is rape.

[9]

To both 9 and Fawkes, you're dwelling on the wrong idea. It's not about how satisfied with it you are. I simply said that those situations, the "rape culture", as in not exactly using sexual violence, but using male aggressive behavior, the threat of violence or rejection or manipulation that I'm talking about. Shit, the sex could be great, but it could still be rape in the sense I'm talking about. Although in these types of situations, it usually isn't.

Well that's because "the sense your talking about" isn't rape at all, but is some sort of crackpot feminist theory probably concocted in a University by people completely detached from their subject of "study".


Or vice a versa, the sex could be awful, but if you have the bond to work through those unsatisfactory or hurt feelings, then it's not rape.

:lol:

[Fawkes]

I simply said that those situations, the "rape culture", as in not exactly using sexual violence, but using male aggressive behavior, the threat of violence or rejection or manipulation that I'm talking about. Shit, the sex could be great, but it could still be rape in the sense I'm talking about. Although in these types of situations, it usually isn't.

I totally agree with you here*, but I was addressing this:

No, but if the chic (or man) regrets it later, you're fucked (figuratively). That's why before you do it, you better make sure the person is someone whom both of you share a real bond.

which implies that any form of regret is indicative of manipulative behavior.


Of course this is a really difficult issue, I mean, let's take this example: If I was to come back from wherever with some girl and we were hooking up and some way or another we ended up having sex (wherein full, believable consent was given with no apparent or intended manipulation on either person's part), but her only real reason for having done that was her fear of rejection if she had done otherwise, am I a rapist? (The answer is pretty obviously no, but how does the fear of rejection fit into this then?)




On a side note, every time I see the title of this thread I think about the South Park episode where Butters is bi-curious.




*Edit*: actually, on second thought, I'm not too sure how much I agree with the first part I quoted from you, but I'll address that later, I'm tired.

[synthesis]

Yeah, I worded that wrong, I meant that psychological manipulation facilitates and leads to rape. Any non-consensual sexual act committed upon another with or without force or threat of it is rape.

What if psychological manipulation is used to obtain consent? Is there any way we can objectively know whether or not someone has been psychologically manipulated?

(This isn't the Socratic method or anything. I'm genuinely curious as to how people would answer this.)


On a side note, every time I see the title of this thread I think about the South Park episode where Butters is bi-curious.

Did Revolutionarily Awesome's post above remind anyone else of the principal from Eastbound & Down?

[Fawkes]

What if psychological manipulation is used to obtain consent?


Then it isn't consent.


Is there any way we can objectively know whether or not someone has been psychologically manipulated?
Beyond all parties outright admitting to it I really don't know and would be interested to hear some others' opinions.

[synthesis]

Then it isn't consent.

Why?

[Lucretia]

The problem with broadening the definition of rape so that it includes sex acts a person formally consents to but has some issues with is that nobody has sex in ideal conditions. I don't know how many times when I have been in committed relationships that I have had sex just to satisfy the other person, without really wanting to do it at all. Was I harmed by it? Was that rape? Not at all, even though I was "coerced" by my affection for the people involved into performing sex acts I would not have performed under ideal conditions. Some people here might claim that it was psychological manipulation, but I must say they are imposing their own meaning on an experience not their own.

And what about situations where a person cheats on his/her spouse? He/she might regret later. If so, does that make it rape? The more we leave the realm of explicit consent and enter the realm of psychological coercion and regret, the more problematic our understanding of rape becomes.

[Impulse97]

Never mind folks.

[#FF0000]

Why?

If you punched someone in the face until they consented, it's not consent. Same principle, really.

[synthesis]

If you punched someone in the face until they consented, it's not consent. Same principle, really.

I don't really see how. If I psychologically manipulate someone into giving me money, is that really the same thing as physically beating them until they give me money? Both actions are unethical, but would you really argue that they're on the same level? Or does my analogy not apply here?

[Lucretia]

I don't really see how. If I psychologically manipulate someone into giving me money, is that really the same thing as physically beating them until they give me money? Both actions are unethical, but would you really argue that they're on the same level? Or does my analogy not apply here?

I really think the problem here is that "psychologically coerce" is so broad a concept that it covers activities ranging from asking seductively for sex, to making nasty insults to break somebody into agreeing.

The two exist in completely separate moral universes.

[9]

Originally Posted by synthesis http://www.revleft.com/vb/revleft/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.revleft.com/vb/showthread.php?p=1986988#post1986988)
What if psychological manipulation is used to obtain consent?Then it isn't consent.




Why?
If you punched someone in the face until they consented, it's not consent. Same principle, really.

Well, first of all "punch[ing] someone in the face until they consented" isn't "psychological manipulation" in any way, but is physical assault. Secondly, a lot of people "psychologically manipulate" others for sex.
Its unfortunate, but it isn't rape. For example, flattering someone when you don't really mean any of the things you say, or pretending to be interested in someone on an emotional level when you're really just trying to get in their pants - obviously its too bad that these things happen, but it isn't rape.

And to make rape into something where suddenly tons of people - and possibly even the majority of people - would be "rapists" without even knowing it, and tons of people would have been "raped" without even knowing it - it just completely, completely detracts from the seriousness and the violent nature of actual rape.

[synthesis]

My main differential factor here is that if I recognize that I am being psychologically manipulated into giving consent (to anything), I do have the option to simply get up and walk away from the situation. If physical force is being used to make me "consent" that option no longer exists. I don't have any options. Same goes for if I'm asleep or otherwise incapacitated.

[punisa]

Interesting topic. I totally disagree with the theory that manipulating someone into having sex with you can be classified as rape.
Seduction = manipulation.

I'd say that rape is when you push for it even after you get a rejection.
If we start calling rape something that happens on the emotional level then we're heading for a wholla lotta trouble.
There are many people having sex who feel bad/stupid/manipulated afterward. If we give them a legal path to prosecute upon these emotions it would be hell.

As a user commented earlier - sex is mostly not idealistic. It's usually perfect only in movies and that does not equal reality.
Younger people especially do it mostly as a peer pressure syndrome, which usually results is some mixed feelings.

[727Goon]

I'd say that rape is when you push for it even after you get a rejection.


Really? Have you ever been in a long relationship? So if my girlfriend wants to have sex and I'm not into it but I go along after she keeps insisting, I should file charges? Going by that definition of rape, it seems most everyone who has sex is a rapist.

[Pretty Flaco]

Rape is forced or sex without consent. Simple as that.
Regretting having sex later or being sort of egged on into having sex is not rape, it's just not good sex.

[gorillafuck]

What if psychological manipulation is used to obtain consent? Is there any way we can objectively know whether or not someone has been psychologically manipulated?

(This isn't the Socratic method or anything. I'm genuinely curious as to how people would answer this.)
If you mean lying and dishonesty by psychological manipulation, that's unfortunate but if they consent to having sex then it's not rape. It's just someone being an asshole.

If seduction or turning someone on counts as psychological manipulation (I could see it being a form of psychological manipulation, technically) then there's nothing wrong with that, it's just sexual behavior.

[727Goon]

Rape is forced or sex without consent. Simple as that.
Regretting having sex later or being sort of egged on into having sex is not rape, it's just not good sex.

Well yeah dude obviously, I'm just trying to get them to clarify whatever ridiculous definition of rape they're going by.

[Salyut]

I ask for consent between each thrust.

Written contract > verbal contract. Third party witness on hand watching and the ability to sign paperwork while fucking and bam: uberconsent.

[punisa]

Really? Have you ever been in a long relationship? So if my girlfriend wants to have sex and I'm not into it but I go along after she keeps insisting, I should file charges? Going by that definition of rape, it seems most everyone who has sex is a rapist.

Of course not, I was thinking about people who are not in a relationship.
What you mention is all too familiar too me and probably a part of every healthy relationship :)

But if you have two strangers or people who were not intimate before, then consensus is a must - simple as that.

[punisa]

I think we all agree that rape constitutes using your force in order to have sex with the non consensual person.
It's pretty obvious that women are usually the victims here.
If we expand the topic a bit - I keep hearing about a number of men being raped by females but usually never report it because of social stigma.

Don't want to come out as stupid, but could someone shine a light on how is this performed?
When we mention males being raped by females are we talking about using physical force to perform a sexual act or are we again talking about "manipulation" that leads to sex?

[Ravachol]

The entire idea of 'asking for consent between each step' is bloody ridiculous. Firstly, when someone 'asks for consent' and the reply is positive, this doesn't necessarily mean it's consensual. Social domination, fear, intoxication are all factors that cloud this kind of judgement.

Secondly, this isn't how consensual decisions of this kind are made. One ought to think that the bond shared between two people (whether this involves a sexual relationship or not) gives some indications about what is ok and what is not ok. Friends know what they appreciate from eachother and what not and the same goes for people in a sexual relationship. This and not being a total douche when it comes to reading implicit reactions ought to be enough indication.

[727Goon]

Of course not, I was thinking about people who are not in a relationship.
What you mention is all too familiar too me and probably a part of every healthy relationship :)

But if you have two strangers or people who were not intimate before, then consensus is a must - simple as that.

So you don't think consent is as important in a relationship? What's the difference between me saying no and later consenting to have sex with a girl I'm dating and doing the same with a girl I've nevr had sex with? Consent is not a vague thing like you make it out to be, and just as consent can be taken away after being given originally, it can be denied and later given.