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freepalestine

12th January 2011, 21:53

Israel rabbi: Gentile sperm risks 'barbaric' offspring

Published today (updated) 12/01/2011 17:42
http://www.revleft.com/vb/images/ViewDetails/Eng-1.jpg http://www.revleft.com/vb/images/ViewDetails/Eng+1.jpg

Rabbi Ovadia Yosef, spiritual leader of the ultra-Orthodox Jewish party Shas,
attends an election rally in Tel Aviv February 2006. [MaanImages/Moti Milrod]

TEL AVIV, Israel (Ma'an) -- A Jewish woman should never get pregnant using sperm donated by a non-Jewish man – even if it is the last option available, a senior Israeli authority on Jewish law has asserted.

According to Rabbi Dov Lior of the Religious Zionism movement, a baby born through such an insemination will have the "negative genetic traits that characterize non-Jews," Israeli media reported Wednesday.

Lior's stance negated a ruling, widely accepted by rabbis, that sperm donated by a non-Jew is preferable to that of an anonymous Jew, who might pose a "genealogical risk," the Israeli news site Ynet reported.

Lior, who reportedly addressed the issue during a women's health conference held recently at the Puah Institute, a fertility clinic, advised sterile couples to adopt rather than produce non-Jewish offspring.

A religious text "states that the character traits of the father pass on to the son," he said. "If the father in not Jewish, what character traits could he have? Traits of cruelty, of barbarism! These are not traits that characterize the people of Israel."

He added: "A person born to Jewish parents, even if they weren't raised on the Torah – there are things that are passed on in the blood, it's genetic. ... "If the father is a gentile, then the child is deprived of these things.

"I even read in books that sometimes the crime, the difficult traits, the bitterness – a child that comes from these traits, it's no surprise that he won't have the qualities that characterize the people of Israel," he added.

Lior also said that children born to single mothers are more inclined to criminality.

The rabbi's remarks come as rights groups warn of a rising tide of anti-Palestinian sentiment in Israeli society.

In recent weeks, about 300 rabbis have signed a letter calling on Jews to avoid renting or selling property to non-Jews, and right-wing groups have staged demonstrations warning against fraternizing with Palestinians.

The rabbis' letter drew widespread condemnation, including from Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu, but a poll published in late December showed Israelis are evenly divided on the issue, AFP reported.

http://www.maannews.net/eng/ViewDetails.aspx?ID=350390

ComradeMan

12th January 2011, 21:59

Seeing as Jewishness passed through the mother, according to the orthodoxy, I fail to see how this would be a problem.

But then religious nutcases can come up with anything- like those who said Jews were pigs and dogs etc... ;)

Palingenisis

12th January 2011, 22:27

Israel is terrifying....The way Sephardic and Ethopian jews are oppressed is truelly disgusting...Not getting into to anything else but that in itself exposes the Zionists here.

ComradeMan

12th January 2011, 22:41

Israel is terrifying....The way Sephardic and Ethopian jews are oppressed is truelly disgusting...Not getting into to anything else but that in itself exposes the Zionists here.

Some of the most hardcore Zionists are "Sephardic" Jews- and you're not using the term Sephardic accurately. Do you also mean Mizrahi and Temenim (Yemeni)?

But then a friend of mine who went to Dublin said there was a lot of racism and anti-immigrant stuff, does that make Ireland a terrifying state and all Irish people de facto racists?

Generalising... Generalising.....

freepalestine

12th January 2011, 22:55

Some of the most hardcore Zionists are "Sephardic" Jews- and you're not using the term Sephardic accurately. Do you also mean Mizrahi and Temenim (Yemeni)?

yeh forgetting the terms to define arab jews-and other middle eastern jews etc.they are still treat as 2nd class citizens by the state of isreal,that started at the outset,in the 50s.through cultural and racist means.
i personally think they are in a strange place.they are more or less culturally,linguistiaclly still arabic even due to the zionist programmes of intergrating them intothe askenazi image of that state.
at the same time they are (many)the most racist against palestinians in isreal,maybe.

obviously they are mostly working class,and the headrabbi (quotedabove) and his party shas are the main representatives of the mizrahis.
unfortunate

----------
also the article was in a context of recent racist,fascist statements from shas/religious groups and racist rabbis recently(see articles of the discrimination thread)

But then a friend of mine who went to Dublin said there was a lot of racism and anti-immigrant stuff, does that make Ireland a terrifying state and all Irish people de facto racists?

Generalising... Generalising.....this is about palestine-what the hell as ireland to do with it-or the irish?
the fact is - ireland doesnt apply racist apartheid laws .
ireland does not practise ethnic cleansing on palestinians.
israel is a racist state,its written in its laws and supported by the actions of the state.

Palingenisis

12th January 2011, 23:11

t to do with it-or the irish?
the fact is that ireland doesnt apply racist aparteid laws .
ireland does not practise ethnic cleansing on palestinians.
israel is a racist state,its written in its laws and supported by the actions of the state.

Off topic but a lot of Irish Republicans are involved in anti-racist work.

I have made my views clear on racism and anti-immigrant view points.

But have being to Israel its not anything like as bad in Ireland. Ive argued several people out of their anti-immigrant views....Good luck persuading Israelies of anything anti-racist.

Palingenisis

12th January 2011, 23:12

this is about palestine-what the hell as ireland to do with it-or the irish?

Its to do ComradeMan trolling me. I guess in a way its my fault...:blushing:

#FF0000

13th January 2011, 00:15

But then a friend of mine who went to Dublin said there was a lot of racism and anti-immigrant stuff, does that make Ireland a terrifying state and all Irish people de facto racists?

Generalising... Generalising.....

No one is saying all Israelis are racists though. The Israeli state is, which is true.

tbasherizer

13th January 2011, 00:24

This is another example of the parallelism between traditional European Fascism and the new Zionist Fascism. It doesn't matter which race does it in which location- the foundation of a state on ethnic or religious exceptionalism is the foundation of Nazi-esque rhetoric and oppression!

TheCultofAbeLincoln

13th January 2011, 03:09

brigadista

13th January 2011, 03:24

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010/may/23/israel-apartheid-south-africa-nuclear-warheads

It's the relationship that never was. Kept to the shadows, it was shielded behind secret agreements and disinformation that dressed up military cooperation as mining deals.

But when the spotlight occasionally flickered over one of the most intimate and enduring alliances of the postwar years, Israel was quick to underplay its deep military ties with apartheid South Africa as nothing more than a necessity of survival without a flicker of ideological affinity.

But as is shown by Sasha Polakow-Suransky's book, The Unspoken Alliance, that relationship went beyond mere convenience.

For years after its birth, Israel was publicly critical of apartheid and sought to build alliances with the newly independent African states through the 1960s.

But after the 1973 Yom Kippur war, African governments increasingly came to look on the Jewish state as another colonialist power. The government in Jerusalem cast around for new allies and found one in Pretoria. For a start, South Africa was already providing the yellowcake essential for building a nuclear weapon.

By 1976, the relationship had changed so profoundly that South Africa's prime minister, John Vorster, could not only make a visit to Jerusalem but accompany Israel's two most important leaders, Yitzhak Rabin and Shimon Peres, to the city's Holocaust memorial to mourn the six million Jews murdered by the Nazis.

Neither Israeli appears to have been disturbed by the fact that Vorster had been an open supporter of Hitler, a member of South Africa's fascist and violently antisemitic Ossewabrandwag and that he was interned during the war as a Nazi sympathiser.

Rabin hailed Vorster as a force for freedom and at a banquet toasted "the ideals shared by Israel and South Africa: the hopes for justice and peaceful coexistence".

A few months later, the South African government's yearbook described the two countries having one thing in common above all else: "They are both situated in a predominantly hostile world inhabited by dark peoples."

A year earlier, Israel had offered to sell South Africa nuclear warheads.

"South Africa's leaders yearned for a nuclear deterrent – which they believed would force the west to intervene on their behalf if Pretoria were ever seriously threatened – and the Israeli proposition put that goal within reach," Polakow-Suransky says in the book.

The deal did not go through but there was plenty of other cooperation in the development of military technology.

Alon Liel, a former Israeli ambassador to Pretoria who headed his foreign ministry's South Africa desk in the 80s, once told the Guardian that gold-rich South Africa funded the joint military projects and Israel provided much of the technical knowledge.

"After 1976, there was a love affair between the security establishments of the two countries and their armies," he said. "We were involved in Angola as consultants to the [South African] army. You had Israeli officers there cooperating with the army. The link was very intimate."

By the late 1970s, South Africa was Israel's single largest customer for weapons.

Polakow-Suransky establishes that the relationship was so intimate that in the mid-1970s, South Africa lifted the safeguards supposed to govern how the yellowcake was used to prevent nuclear proliferation.

In return, Israel sent South Africa 30 grams of tritium, which gives thermonuclear weapons the boost to their explosive power. The delivery was enough to build several atomic bombs, which South Africa did in the coming years.

Peres was central to the relationship. He was defence minister at the time of Vorster's visit to Jerusalem and twice served as prime minister during the 1980s as the alliance with the apartheid government solidified.

Five years ago, I asked him about the morality of ties with the white regime.

"Every decision is not between two perfect situations. Every choice is between two imperfect alternatives. At that time the movement of black South Africa was with (PLO leader Yasser) Arafat against us. Actually, we didn't have much of a choice. But we never stopped denouncing apartheid. We never agreed with it," he said

And a man like Vorster?

"I wouldn't put him on the list of the greatest leaders of our time," said Peres.

Yet attempts by the man who is now Israel's president to portray his country as forced in to a reluctant alliance with an ideological foe are undermined by his enthusiastic expressions of common ideals.

In 1974, Peres wrote to the South African information minister, Eschel Rhoodie, speaking of the "unshakeable foundations of our common hatred of injustice and our refusal to submit to it".

Peres was not alone. Rafael Eitan, the former Israeli military chief of staff, was among those who spoke of his sympathy for the white regime's position. So did Ariel Sharon, the future prime minister.

In the late 80s, as international pressure on the apartheid government grew, Israel's political leadership decided it was time to retreat. But Liel said that the security establishment balked.

"When we came to the crossroads in 86-87, in which the foreign ministry said we have to switch from white to black, the security establishment said, 'You're crazy, it's suicidal'. They were saying we wouldn't have military and aviation industries unless we had had South Africa as our main client from the mid-1970s; they saved Israel. By the way, it's probably true," he said.

ComradeMan

13th January 2011, 08:02

The USA, UK and France also collaborated with apartheid South Africa. The French found a way around the embargo on arms and sold the South Africans the equipment to make arms- hence the South African airforce having "Mirage" jets and the South Africans becoming leading sophisticated arms producers.

Let's face it- South Africa was about keeping the "free world's" i.e. not the Soviet-sphere's, gold, diamonds and uranium firmly in control of the NATO-sphere, collapse of the Soviet Union etc all of a sudden Mandela is free and South Africa moves to "democracy".

As deplorable as the treatment of Palestinians is in Israel- we should also denounce the apartheid states surrounding Israel that discriminate against Palestinians based on their ethnicity too.

As for this thing about the non-Ashkenazi Jewish people- some of the most anti-Arab/hardcore Zionists are the Jewish Israelis who of course had to run for their lives to Israel from Arab/Islamic countries- with this background it becomes clearer why- although I'm not saying it's a justification.

Sorry, but one mad rabbi talking fundamentalist bullshit is not really particularly useful to a discussion on the argument.

Off topic but a lot of Irish Republicans are involved in anti-racist work. I have made my views clear on racism and anti-immigrant view points. But have being to Israel its not anything like as bad in Ireland. Ive argued several people out of their anti-immigrant views....Good luck persuading Israelies of anything anti-racist.

What about the decades of discrimination and institutionalised racism against Irish Travellers? Racism is just not anti-immigrant stuff you know.

Have you met ever single last Israeli? Do you speak Hebrew, Yiddish or Russian? To be honest racism is rife throughout the Middle-East so the problem is not specifically Israeli as you make it out to be- in fact most of the "white" Israelis I met were the complete opposite of what you describe.

ComradeMan

13th January 2011, 09:15

^^^^^^ Why? What is dishonest? If there is an error/untruth then state it. Instead of being a "charicature" as Sam_b has already mentioned. Sometimes I think if I had a parrot that said "zionist" I would call it after YOU!!! :lol:

ComradeMan

13th January 2011, 09:42

as long as you have people on here like samb and the other idiot you mentioned-the guy off jeeves and wuster-then youre ok.

Sam_b - self-avowed anti-zionist.

I don't know what your other reference is to be honest.

Interesting how you actually haven't answered any of the points too. ;)

Now, you have made an accusation of dishonesty- back it up.

tbasherizer

13th January 2011, 22:16

Um, no. This is another example of leftists using hyperbole to compare to dissimilar occurences.

What do you mean by "nazi-espue" oppression? When you write that I'm thinking of complete communities wiped out by wandering einsatzgruppen or sent to die in one of many death camps. Gaza has seen nasty things done to it to be sure, but comparing the actions of the Israeli state or people --even if some nutcases believe in the whole pure genes bs-- to the actions of the third reich is ridiculous.

Because of the ethnic makeup of the poplations South Africa has been cited as a parallel, I personally think Turkish oppression for decades of the kurds draws comparison. But not the fucking nazis that is overly emotional and simply not true in my opinion.

It is true that the Israelis haven't set up an industry based primarily upon the mass murder of Palestinian civilians. The ideology of all ethnic nationalisms, once they gain power, however, is of the same vein as Nazism. The idea that a Jewish race, a Turkish Race, a Haida race, or an Aryan race is more pure is straight-up ethnofascism. It doesn't matter if a Haida supremacist is a lowly carver living in East Vancouver or the Turk supremacist is the leader of the Turkish state. Ideologically, Zionism (or any other ideology that claims special status on an ethnic basis), as evidenced by that rabbi and other examples of conservative Jewish opinion in Israel, is the same as any other fascism.

I certainly agree that Israel's crimes fall way short of those of the European fascists, but you must keep in mind that Israel is by no means a monolithic entity. Within its political scene are a wide variety of different voices, ranging those that would resonate among us to those of the fascists I just described. It is because the fascist elements of the Israeli political scene have not gained total control of the Israeli state (and their dependency on good relations with the West) that blatant genocide has not happened. Despite this, the racist nature of Zionism is still manifested in Israel's military actions and foreign policy.

hatzel

14th January 2011, 00:19

freepalestine

14th January 2011, 00:54

I really wouldn't call him a 'senior Israeli authority on Jewish law', though, as this article does, that's misleading. The fact that his stance is the complete opposite of a ruling 'widely accepted by rabbis' should go some way to suggesting that he's far from an authority, and more of a rambling idiot...
Rabbis provoke riots in Israel's "most racist" city
Jonathan Cook, The Electronic Intifada, 9 November 2010

The tranquility of Safed, a small city nestled high in the hills of the Upper Galilee close to the Lebanese border,[birthplace of mahmoud abbas] is not usually disturbed except by the occasional pilgrimage by Madonna or other famous devotees of the Jewish mystical teachings of Kabbalah.

But in the past few weeks, Safed -- one of Judaism's four holy cities -- has been making headlines of a very different kind. Gideon Levy, a columnist for the Israeli daily Haaretz, last week declared it "the most racist city in the country."

The unflattering, and hotly contested, epithet follows an edict from Safed's senior rabbis ordering residents not to sell or rent homes to "non-Jews" -- a reference to the country's Palestinian citizens, who comprise a fifth of Israel's population.

At an emergency meeting, called last month to discuss the dangers of "assimilation" caused by Palestinian men dating Jewish women, the 18 rabbis warned that Safed was facing an "Arab takeover." Jewish residents were told to inform on neighbors who try to sell or rent to Arabs.

The number of Palestinians in the city, though low, has been steadily rising as Safed Academic College has expanded. There are now some 1,300 Palestinian students enrolled at the school.

The rabbis' statements have provoked a series of riots by local religious Jews, in which several homes have been attacked to chants of "Death to the Arabs." In one recent incident, three Palestinian students were beaten as shots were fired.

So far three Jewish youths, including an off-duty policeman, have been charged with participating in the violence. The policeman is accused of firing his gun.

The anti-Arab campaign escalated last week as posters were plastered across the city threatening to burn down the home of an elderly Jew if he did not stop renting to Arab students.

The owner, 89-year-old Eli Zvieli, said the posters appeared after he received phone threats and visits from several rabbis warning him to change his mind.

Jamil Khalaili, 20, a physiotherapy student at the college who rents an apartment with a friend in a Jewish neighborhood, said the atmosphere in Safed was rapidly deteriorating.

"We're being treated like criminals, like we're trying to steal their homes," he said. "It's got the point where many of my friends are wondering whether to leave. I want to study here but not if it costs me my life."

Leading the opposition to the presence of Arab students in the city is Safed's chief rabbi, Shmuel Eliyahu, who is employed by the municipality as head of its religious council.

"When a non-Jew moves in, residents begin to worry about their children, about their daughters. Many Arab students have been known to date Jewish girls," he told Israel National News, the main news agency of the settlement movement.

The 18 rabbis issued their joint statement after learning of the city's plan to build a medical school, which is expected to draw Palestinian students from across the Galilee.

They urged Jewish residents to shun a "neighbor or acquaintance" who rents to Arabs. "Refrain from doing business with him, deny him the right to read from the Torah and similarly ostracize him until he renounces this harmful deed," it read.

They have been given backing by a former chief rabbi, Ovadia Yosef, who used a recent sermon to tell his followers that "selling to [non-Jews], even for a lot of money, is not allowed. We won't let them take control of us here."

Similar anti-Arab sentiments have been heard in two other Jewish cities in the Galilee, Karmiel and Upper Nazareth. Both were established decades ago as part of a government "Judaization" program to settle more Jews in the country's most heavily Palestinian-populated region.

In Karmiel, thirty kilometers west of Safed, ads in local newspapers have been promoting a special email address for residents to inform on neighbors planning to sell homes to Arabs. According to Ynet, a popular news website, the email account is overseen by officials for Oren Milstein, the city's deputy mayor until he was fired last week.

Adi Eldar, the mayor, said Milstein had "damaged the city's image" after he gave a newspaper interview in which he boasted that he had prevented the sale of thirty homes to Arab families.

Milstein's replacement as deputy mayor, Rina Greenberg, is a member of the far-right Yisrael Beiteinu party of Avigdor Lieberman, Israel's foreign minister, who advocates ridding the country of many of its Palestinian citizens.

Meanwhile, the mayor of Upper Nazareth, Shimon Gapso, who is also allied with Yisrael Beiteinu, has announced plans to build a new neighborhood for 3,000 religious Jews to halt what he called the city's "demographic deterioration."

Hundreds of Palestinian families from neighboring Nazareth have relocated to the Jewish city to escape overcrowding. Today, one in eight of Upper Nazareth's 42,000-strong population is Palestinian.

In August, Gapso said he felt "as happy as if I had a new baby" at the news that 15 extremist families from the former Gaza settlement of Gush Katif were establishing a Jewish seminary in his city.

Hatia Chomsky-Porat, who leads Galilee activists for Sikkuy, a group advocating better relations between Jews and Palestinians, said: "The political atmosphere is growing darker all the time. Racism among Jews is entirely mainstream now."

In Safed, the Palestinian student body, heavily outnumbered by nearly 40,000 Jewish residents, has tried to keep a low profile. However, one small act of defiance appears to have further contributed to Jewish residents' fears of a "takeover."

Inhabitants awoke recently to find a Palestinian flag draped on the top of a renovated mosque -- one of the many old stone buildings in Safed that attest to the city's habitation long before Israel's establishment.

In 1948, when Jewish forces captured the town, Safed was a mixed city of 10,000 Palestinians and 2,000 Jews. All the Palestinian inhabitants were expelled, including a 13-year-old Mahmoud Abbas, now the president of the Palestinian Authority who continues to hold office under controversial emergency decrees extending his expired term.

Khaliali said the city's history appeared still to haunt many of its Jewish residents, who expressed fears that Arab students were there to reclaim refugee property as the vanguard of a movement for the Palestinian right of return.

It is not the first time Eliyahu, the son of a former chief rabbi of Israel, has been accused of inciting against the city's Arab population.

In 2002, during a wave of suicide attacks at the start of the second Palestinian intifada, he called on Safed college to expel all Palestinian students.

Two years later he launched a campaign against intermarriage, accusing Palestinian men of waging "another form of war" against Jewish women by "seducing" them.

He narrowly avoided prosecution for incitement in 2006 after he agreed to retract his earlier statements.

The Religious Action Center, a group of Reform movement Jews, and several Palestinian MPs have demanded that Yehuda Weinstein, the attorney-general, investigate Eliyahu and the other rabbis for incitement to violence.

http://electronicintifada.net/v2/article11616.shtml (http://www.anonym.to/?http://electronicintifada.net/v2/article11616.shtml)

freepalestine

14th January 2011, 00:56

freepalestine

14th January 2011, 00:57

Oh my, Dov Lior, puh-lease...

One of the only rabbis I know who has managed to consistently contradict almost everything that is considered axiomatic in the Jewish faith, and still somehow have people listening to him...I really wouldn't call him a 'senior Israeli authority on Jewish law', though, as this article does, that's misleading. The fact that his stance is the complete opposite of a ruling 'widely accepted by rabbis' should go some way to suggesting that he's far from an authority, and more of a rambling idiot...

Israel turns blind eye to racist state-employed rabbis
Jonathan Cook, The Electronic Intifada, 9 December 2010

http://electronicintifada.net/artman2/uploads/3/101209-racist-rabbis.jpg An Israeli holds a sign reading "Jewish and Arab solidarity for justice and equality" at a protest outside Jerusalem's Great Synagogue against a religious decree by fifty of Israel's leading rabbis, 8 December 2010. (Oren Ziv/ActiveStills (http://www.anonym.to/?http://www.activestills.org))
Jews must not rent homes to "gentiles." That was the religious decree issued this week by at least fifty of Israel's leading rabbis, many of them employed by the state as municipal religious leaders. Jews should first warn, then "ostracize" fellow Jews who fail to heed the directive, the rabbis declared.

The decree is the latest in a wave of racist pronouncements from some of Israel's most influential rabbis.

In October, Shmuel Eliyahu, the chief rabbi of Safed, delivered a ruling, signed by 17 other rabbis in the city, telling Jewish residents not to sell or rent property to members of the country's Palestinian Arab minority, who make up a fifth of the population.

His followers turned words into deeds by attacking Arab students in the city and threatening to burn down the homes of Jewish landlords renting to the students.

Similar edicts have recently been backed by dozens of rabbis in Tel Aviv and nearby Bnei Brak, a suburb of 150,000 mostly ultra-Orthodox Jews. They have threatened to "expose" any Jews who rent to "foreigners" -- in this case, a reference to migrant workers and African refugees who are crowded into neglected neighborhoods in the center of the country.

After many weeks of silence on these declarations, Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu was finally forced to issue a condemnation yesterday, describing the rabbis' call as undemocratic and contradicting the bible, which, he said, called for Jews to "love the stranger."

Nonetheless, racism in Israel is increasingly enjoying high-level sanction among the most influential sectors of the religious establishment.

The latest ruling was signed by Shlomo Aviner, a spiritual leader of Israel's national-religious camp; Yosef Elyashiv, a senior ultra-Orthodox rabbi; and Avigdor Neventzal, rabbi of Jerusalem's Old City.

Its sentiments have also been echoed by Ovadia Yosef, a former chief rabbi of Israel and the spiritual leader of Shas, an important political and religious party in Netanyahu's government. "Selling to [non-Jews], even for a lot of money, is not allowed. We won't let them take control of us here," Yosef said recently.

Two months ago, Yosef explained the logic behind his views and those of like-minded rabbis.

"Goyim [non-Jews] were born only to serve us." Explaining why God allowed non-Jews long lives, he added: "Imagine that your donkey would die, you'd lose your income. [The donkey] is your servant. ... That's why he [the gentile] gets a long life, to work well for the Jew."

Yosef's remarks against "gentiles" were greeted with respectful silence by Israeli officials and most of the media. It was left to the United States government and the New York-based Anti-Defamation League (ADL) to issue rebukes. Abraham Foxman, the ADL's head, accused the rabbi of advancing "hateful and divisive ideas."

The rabbis' use of theology to support racial discrimination is being applied to more than just housing.

This summer, Yosef Elitzur and Yitzhak Shapira, who head an influential seminary in the West Bank settlement of Yitzhar, published The King's Torah, a 230-page guide to how Jews should treat non-Jews.

The two rabbis concluded that Jews were obligated to kill anyone who posed a danger, immediate or potential, to the Jewish people, and implied that all Palestinians were to be considered a threat. On these grounds, the pair justified killing Palestinian civilians and even their babies.

Last month Shapira also backed the use of Palestinians as human shields, a war crime under the Fourth Geneva Convention, and a practice that Israel's high court has outlawed.

The King's Torah, far from being condemned by moderate rabbis, has been greeted with a general silence and enthusiastic support from a number of notable religious leaders.

Arik Ascherman, head of Rabbis for Human Rights in Israel, said the growing extremism of the the Orthodox religious establishment in Israel reflected the increasingly right-wing atmosphere in Israel that made the expression of ultra-nationalist views permissible.

In the current climate, he said, moderate rabbis were reluctant to speak out against their colleagues. Many of these rabbis belong to the Conservative or Reform streams of Judaism, which are not officially recognized in Israel.

"The religious sanction being given to the political right by these rabbis is dangerous. It makes their opinions seem more acceptable," he said.

That is being reflected in public surveys, in which many Israeli Jews express support for anti-Arab views. A poll by the Israeli Democracy Institute published last week showed that 46 percent of the country's Jews did not want to live near Arab citizens, and 39 percent felt the same about foreign workers.

Even more, 53 percent, wanted Arab citizens to be encouraged to leave Israel and half believed Arabs should not have equal rights with Jews. Among the religious public, racist sentiments were more popular.

Israeli prosecutors, meanwhile, have turned a blind eye to the refusal of several prominent endorsers of The King's Torah to obey a summons calling them for investigation. "Our holy Torah is not a subject for investigation or trial by flesh and blood," the rabbis said.

In all, the rabbinical establishment is growing increasingly bold in promoting its vision of a Jewish state run according to holy law, according to Zvi Barel, a commentator with the daily newspaper Haaretz.

"They and their supporters are transforming zealous fundamentalism and the shameful The King's Torah into the mainstream," Barel wrote recently.

The general trend towards extremism has not happened by chance, said Sefi Rachelevsky, a prominent Israeli writer critical of the Orthodox rabbinate. Israel's public coffers pay the salaries of some of the most extremist rabbis, and the education system regularly falls under the political control of religious parties like Shas.

Shapira, who advocates killing non-Jewish babies, receives large sums from the education ministry for his yeshiva -- a seminary where he spreads his message of hate. Religious students also receive extra subsidies unavailable to normal students to encourage their attendance at such yeshivas.

The rabbis exert their influence on the youngest and most impressionable too. When the new school year started in September, 52 percent of Jewish children in first grade attended a strictly religious school.

Pupils in some of the most religious schools, Rachlevsky pointed out, are taught that Jews sit above nature, which comprises four categories: "inanimate," "vegetable," "animal" and "speakers" -- or non-Jews, who are considered no more than talking animals.

A version of this article originally appeared in The National (http://www.anonym.to/?http://www.thenational.ae/), published in Abu Dhabi.

http://electronicintifada.net/v2/article11666.shtml (http://www.anonym.to/?http://electronicintifada.net/v2/article11666.shtml)

Rafiq

14th January 2011, 01:03

Dr Mindbender

14th January 2011, 01:03

Um, no. This is another example of leftists using hyperbole to compare dissimilar occurences.

What do you mean by "nazi-esque" oppression? When you write that I'm thinking of complete communities wiped out by wandering einsatzgruppen or sent to die in one of many death camps. Gaza has seen nasty things done to it to be sure, but comparing the actions of the Israeli state or people --even if some nutcases believe in the whole pure genes bs-- to the actions of the third reich is ridiculous.

Because of the ethnic makeup of the populations South Africa has been cited as a parallel, I personally think Turkish oppression for decades of the kurds draws comparison. But not the fucking nazis that is overly emotional and simply not true in my opinion.

It is true in the sense that for the last 60 years, Israel has relentlessly attempted to wipe out the Palestinian nation and identity, driving its people into oblivion. The fact that it has managed to do so with western sanction, in my opinion makes it as bad if not for the same reasons. Israel does not need death camps. It has better weapons- economic co-ercion and international appeasement.

freepalestine

14th January 2011, 01:05

Outrage continues over Israeli rabbis' racist decree
Jerrold Kessel and Pierre Klochendler, The Electronic Intifada, 27 December 2010

http://electronicintifada.net/artman2/uploads/3/101227-racist-letter.jpg An Israeli protestor in Jerusalem holds a sign reading "1935 is here" in reference to when Nazis prevented Jews from living alongside other Germans. (Oren Ziv/ActiveStills (http://www.anonym.to/?http://www.activestills.org))

BAT YAM (IPS) - Emotions are running high in this working class town on the Mediterranean adjacent to Tel Aviv, the Israeli metropolis that has long been the symbol of liberal laissez-faire Israel. Principally, anti-Arab emotions: racism is on the march.

A number of small, yet vociferous, anti-Arab demonstrations have taken place here recently in the wake of a national uproar triggered by a religious ruling signed by 50 rabbis forbidding the renting of homes by Jewish Israelis to "non-Jews." The signing rabbis are from all around the country and from Jewish settlements in the occupied West Bank.

Their target is Israel's Palestinian Arab citizens who number 1.3 million, about a fifth of the Israeli population.

Bat Yam Mayor Shlomi Lahiani said that the latest demonstration by right-wing activists, that included members of the Knesset, Israel's parliament, and where there were calls to "keep Arabs out of our town," amounted to "inciting hate and racism."

"Arabs are equal citizens and must be treated as such," Lahiani told IPS. Racist actions would "not be tolerated," he declared.

Demonstrators have held up placards proclaiming "Jews, let's win -- daughters of Israel for sons of Israel."

Since the issuing of the original document earlier this month, scores more rabbis added their names to the edict -- despite an outpouring of public and media criticism.

In all, some 300 rabbis have now signed the document which warns that "it is forbidden in the Torah to sell a house or a field in the land of Israel to a Gentile." The document specifically calls for those who rent or sell property to non-Jews to be ostracized by the community.

"After someone sells or rents just one flat, the value of all the neighboring flats drops ... He who sells or rents to non-Jews causes his neighbors a big loss and his sin is great," it says. "Anyone who sells property to a non-Jew must be cut off!!"

The manifesto quotes extensively from Jewish writings, including the Bible. It cites Exodus 23:33: "Do not let them live in your land or they will cause you to sin against me, because the worship of their gods will certainly be a snare to you."

The rabbi signatories were swiftly rebuked by many public figures, including other rabbis and civil rights organizations as well as mainstream politicians, among them Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu.

The speaker of the Knesset, Reuven Rivlin, described the rabbis' call "an embarrassment to the Jewish people, another nail in the coffin of Israeli democracy."

Others expressed concern lest racism against the Arab minority in Israel backfire against Jewish minorities around the world.

Noah Flug, head of the International Association of Holocaust Survivors, told IPS he was shocked by the content of the rabbis' letter, saying it recalled the Nazis banning of Jews from living alongside other Germans.

"How can we not remember how the Nazis threw Jews out of their apartments in order to create ghettos, how they wrote on benches 'No Jews allowed,' and how, of course, it was prohibited to sell or rent property to Jews. Who would have believed that people would now be calling for this to happen in our country?"

The anti-Arab mood in Bat Yam, and the attempts to contain it, are a reflection of similar situations that have arisen recently in a number of other Israeli towns, starting from the holy Jewish city Safed in Galilee: the local rabbi was the first to issue a call on Jewish residents of the town to "keep Arabs out."

For now, official Israel has managed to keep a lid on a potentially explosive situation.

But many of the rabbis are unrepentant. "Racism originated in the Torah," Rabbi Yosef Scheinen, who heads a religious seminary in Ashdod, a port town south of here, told Israel Radio. "The Land of Israel belongs to the people of Israel. This is what the Holy One, Blessed Be He, intended."

Despite the widespread condemnation, experts au fait with the mood among some religious and hard nationalist circles believe there is widespread support for the views as voiced by the rabbis in their original document.

Menachem Friedman of Bar-Ilan University said, "They are expressing fears of the whole population, but particularly the poorer sectors. The state itself often adopts discriminatory positions towards the Arab minority and that contributes to deep fears raised by fundamentalist Islam, creating a kind of ghetto mentality among many Jewish Israelis, even though they are the majority in this country."

All rights reserved, IPS -- Inter Press Service (2010). Total or partial publication, retransmission or sale forbidden.
http://electronicintifada.net/v2/article11697.shtml (http://www.anonym.to/?http://electronicintifada.net/v2/article11697.shtml)

Rafiq

14th January 2011, 01:12

And, it's good that we can get a source of information from people like Freepalestine, he has been helpful in providing us information about the situation in Palestine.

However, I think it's also important to shed light on all forms of racism... Everywhere.

For example, to start, Arab regimes are among the most brutal, and Racist regimes you will ever come across. They suck away all of the nations recourses into swiss banks to secure their family wealth forever, they sell their nation away to private banks and corporations, they provide military bases for imperialists, they murder their people on the streets, beat people, beat women in public, behead people in public, (By the way, have you ever been to a jail in the middle east?), treat Palestinians like Garbage, Spit on the working class, and actually go out of their way in places like Saudi Arabia allowing pedophile marriages taking place, and beheading teenagers for leaving Islam.

We need more light shed on those things taking place, because in all honesty, I don't see a difference between the Israeli State and those Brutal Regimes.

You want to know what the real enemy of the Arab worker is? Their Regime. Do you want to know the enemy of a Jewish worker? It's regime.

Both regimes, commit terrible acts of violence, and each points the finger at the other to further exploit it's population.

That pretty much sums up the Middle East situation, simplistically.

14th January 2011, 01:17

Of course racist Israeli rabbi's aren't morally, political, or practically comparable to the Nazis in power in the Third Reich...

...but their ideology of white genetic-racial supremacy is ideologically similar to many neo-Nazi white supremacist groups (who share racism but not genocide with Third Reich Nazis) - they just differ with regard to which socially/politically constructed set of white people they think is supreme.

So I don't see any reason to regard this group of contemporary white supremacists as less problematic than any other group of contemporary white supremacists - if anything they are more so since they have far greater influence and power than the BNP etc.

Palingenisis

14th January 2011, 01:22

Take note that this never ending battle between Comrademan and Freepalestine/Palingeniniss needs to stop.

Regarding the article, wow, this is completely Racist and actually frightening that somebody would say this.

Nah people here need to understand that the middle east is made up of complex and varied societies and that they arent all brown barbarians which is the logic behind support for Zionism.

KrimKrams do you believe that the theft of land in Palestine at gun point was justified? Do you ComradeMan?

Remember how popular Kahane is.

Supporting to Zionist project is being a hardcore Racist.

Rafiq

14th January 2011, 01:29

Nah people here need to understand that the middle east is made up of complex and varied societies and that they arent all brown barbarians which is the logic behind support for Zionism.

KrimKrams do you believe that the theft of land in Palestine at gun point was justified? Do you ComradeMan?

Remember how popular Kahane is.

Supporting to Zionist project is being a hardcore Racist.

Would you agree that the regimes in Latin America during the 20's, 30's, and 40's were almost all banana republics and brutal dictatorships?

Each Arab nation has a different culture and a different mode of Arabic Communication.

Some of the most brilliant intellectuals are arabs. The problem is their regimes, not "a bunch of brown people".

I advise you go to a university in an Arab country. The people are educated, and they know their regime's true nature.

Palingenisis

14th January 2011, 01:52

I advise you go to a university in an Arab country. The people are educated, and they know their regime's true nature.

I didnt say they werent, infact I implied that they were...And I didnt defend any regime in the region.

But why do people support Israel?

Racism and ignorance.

hatzel

14th January 2011, 02:05

...half of me wonders if there's even any point in these threads being started, as nobody ever says anything about the article in question, except maybe 'oh, that's bad' before moving on to the same old diatribe about the same old (unrelated) stuff. Might be easier to just have a 'discuss how terrible Israel is' thread, where all that anger can be offloaded, so that serious threads about serious issues won't continually be side-tracked. As this thread is in the 'religion' section, one would at least hope that some discussion of religion would ensue. Of course it's not, and any half-hearted attempt on my part to say anything to do with that seems to have just been met with a plethora of articles which have already been posted across the boards, and have little if anything to do with anything I was quoted as saying, or anything to do with religion...if the subject here is discrimination, rather than religion, then perhaps it should be moved to the 'discrimination' forum, which was made for exactly that purpose. But if the subject here is indeed religion, then some discussion of the religious ruling might be in order...though I won't be holding my breath, as I don't really expect anybody else posting on this thread to have any knowledge about the precedent in the Jewish faith for or against such a ruling, and I don't have one-man conversations, so I guess I'll just have to relegate this whole thread to the dustbin of my mind, once again...

Revolution starts with U

14th January 2011, 02:09

Krim, you're very informative. Go on and one-man convo w your bad self. I'll just sit back, open some popcorn, and learn something. :lol:

Palingenisis

14th January 2011, 02:21

...Might be easier to just have a 'discuss how terrible Israel is' thread, .

Do you agree that the state of Israel and the whole zionist project behind it is evil and racist?

Do you condemn Comrademan's racist support for it?

Revolution starts with U

14th January 2011, 02:35

I think Comrades's support (I also don't think he's supporting it, just not condemning it [as hard as you]) is more circumstantial than racist. Nowhere did I see him saying Palestinians, or non-jews of any kind, are inferior to Jews.

You're just playing the same card he does all the time "you disagree becuz you're reactionary." :thumbdown:

hatzel

14th January 2011, 03:17

This one's for Revolution starts with U, hope you've got a LOT of popcorn ready:

Hmm...I think the issue here goes towards highlighting something which unfortunately blights the whole conflict, and that is the effective dehumanisation of the 'enemy', the 'other', and reducing them to mere concepts, or representations of concepts, which can then be attacked. Both 'sides' are guilty of this, as are a great many people in a great many places. In this case, we can see both sides. We can see a 'rabbi' (though I would not personally call him a rabbi, with the word's meaning of 'great' or 'revered') reducing non-Jews to a concept, namely barbarism or savagery, or their respective sub-human entities, namely barbarians or savages. This is far from the worst thing this particular man has said, I should point out, and I have been highly critical of almost everything that I have ever known him to say. Still, of course, I would not wish less than the full 120 years upon him, despite this. The response from some people, though, has been to return this dehumanisation on him, or Israeli society in general. Or segments of Israeli society, I should say. That is to say, this individual is reduced to a concept, a concept of racism or generally unsavoury opinions, and vast swathes of the Israeli populace are also being cast under this yoke, as representatives of racism or oppression. The issue is that this is what turns people into legitimate targets; one can attack or even attempt to kill a person if that person is considered to embody some negative trait, rather than embodying humanity, a soul, and spirit, all that stuff. The vast majority of people could not bring themselves to support the discrimination of an individual as a human, yet if we decide to consider this individual to no longer be primarily a human, but a policeman, a solider, a Zionist, an Arab, a fascist, a communist, whatever we want to oppose, then we can attempt to justify our acts of violence and oppression against them, as we no longer attack a human being, but a mere concept. As mentioned, both sides are guilty of this. There are Israelis who dehumanise Arabs or others, replacing them in their minds with vessels carrying concepts, as there are Arabs who talk of 'settlers' and 'Zionists' as if these people's lives are somehow worth less, due to the concepts and connotations that they associate with them, be it oppression, discrimination, whatever.

Why mention all this? The issue then is that I take this 'ruling' to involve a certain degree of dehumanisation. We may even argue complete dehumanisation. Is this an acceptable sentiment to hold in Judaism? Only if you believe antisemitic literature, I would argue. There's an issue in how exactly to classify the goyim in Israel; as Israel is not a religious Jewish state, they surely cannot be gerei toshav, or 'resident aliens', whilst it would also be (most likely) incorrect to class them as idolaters, as one can assume that religion Muslims don't pray to idols, and non-religious Muslims don't pray to anything. These two groups would presumably encompass the vast majority of people included under this 'ruling'. There exists, therefore, no real precedent dating back to the earliest times for the treatment of Muslims - the only undebatable fact, in my mind, is that Muslims would constitute, the so-called 'righteous amongst the gentiles', and b'nei Noach (children of Noah), so can effectively be treated as gerei toshav.

In truth, though, it is of very little importance to determine how exactly they should be classified. On the one hand, as Muslims constitute b'nei Noach, they are entirely righteous in their faith. Any attempt to claim that the Muslim people as a whole are somehow unrighteous or barbaric finds no true precedence in Judaism (of course individual Muslims might not be quite so righteous, but the same can be said of some Jews, so this is of no interest to the discussion, which involves unknown Jews and known goyim. If this known goy was a criminal or idol-worshipper, the ruling would be very different than it is now). On the other hand, even if they were to determined as idolaters, the dehumanisation of post-Biblical peoples is very much frowned upon, even those who are idolaters. I don't have the exact quote from the Talmud to hand, but it's something like 'even a pig squeals when it is kicked, so how could a pious man ever bring harm even to the idol-worshiper?'. It pops up every now and them on antisemitic websites, when Christians get the idea it's supposed to comparing Christians to pigs, but of course this is a somewhat inaccurate interpretation, as clearly the point is that even the lowest forms of life feel suffering, which is magnified to an untold degree amongst human beings, who, for reasons of their possessing a soul which is able to communicate with G-d, are spiritually higher beings. Even those Jews who for some reason feel that the goyim are 'lesser' creatures, compared to Jews (a minority viewpoint, I should add), can not excuse dehumanising these people on the back of their religion. Stories abound of Jews dating back to Biblical times who famously acted well towards some particular non-Jew(s), helping them in some way, was generous or kind, and such acts are always portrayed as very virtuous and admirable actions. One should remember that it is considered of paramount importance that a Jew should strive in all circumstances to reflect well on G-d, to be good representatives for G-d, which is far more important when interacting with the goyim than it is when interacting with a fellow Jew, who is already well aware of G-d's greatness. As all people, good or evil, this or that, remain, fundamentally, creations of G-d, and go some way to acting out His divine will, and contributing to the continued creation, no 'rabbi' or anybody else can truly get away with these claims of barbarism. Why, one should ask, would G-d create these hordes of supposed savages? Of course there are no barbarians! Of course there are no savages! There is only humanity, all equally descended from creation and all equally formed in G-d's very image!

One of the issues, I would argue, is that the connection to the faith and to spirituality has dwindled greatly in Israel, as it has amongst vast swathes of the developed world. This leaves us in the unfortunate situation whereby we have people who no longer seem to feel that they have to represent G-d here on Earth. Even some of those who do, such as he outlined in the opening article, seem to be so disconnected from the spiritual entity that we call our universe, that their hate-filled actions and statements can only be seen to reflect on G-d in one way. And it's sure not a positive reflection, as far as I'm concerned...

Revolution starts with U

14th January 2011, 07:54

Still, of course, I would not wish less than the full 120 years upon him, despite this.

:confused:

hatzel

14th January 2011, 11:47

A totally full and complete lifespan is said to last 120 years, because that's how old Moses was said to be (and because it seems to be around about the upper limit that people can live to, if those record-breaking 'oldest people in the world' are anything to go by). Pretty much, despite the fact that I don't like him...at all...I'm not wishing death or poor health on him or anything like that, because that would be meeeeean. :scared:

In other news, I would suggest that if freepalestine thinks I'm such a joke, rather than just stating it on the negative reputation thing, maybe he actually wants to post something in the thread, to explain why exactly I am...? I mean, I know it will probably just be something like 'all these racist Zionist conspiracy lies!' which will then be deleted within a few hours, like almost every other post I've ever seen him make which isn't just a copy-pasted article from EI, but hey, I guess even that's better than nothing...

Revolution starts with U

14th January 2011, 12:05

I figured that's what you meant. :lol:

ComradeMan

14th January 2011, 12:30

Take note that this never ending battle between Comrademan and Freepalestine/Palingeniniss needs to stop.

Regarding the article, wow, this is completely Racist and actually frightening that somebody would say this.

The article is racist, it's also misleading and has been contradicted by Krims and myself from a Jewish position too. This rabbi is, in my opinion, a religious fanatic and what he says flies in the face of Judaism.

But of course if we don't suddenly "echo-chamber" people like Freepalestine and Palingenesis we are denounced as Zionists etc etc etc.

If someone else started posting every racist/anti-semitic or nutjob pronouncement from the Islamic world in a subtle attempt to besmirch Muslims (remember Poppynogood) they would be denounced as Islamophobes.

Rabbi condemns Zionism as 'criminal'
http://www.aztlan.net/rabbi_condemns_zionism.htm

http://www.inminds.co.uk/rabbi-goldstein-judasim-and-zionism.html

Rabbi condemns hate speach against Palastinians
http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=bc1_1283551827

http://www.mediareviewnet.com/index.php/201008311693/News-Headlines/Rabbi-Weiss-Condemns-Recent-Statement-of-Former-Zionist-So-Called-Chief-Rabbi-Ovadiah-Yosef.php

Etc etc etc

hatzel

14th January 2011, 12:42

In order to make sure that 'discussion' (if it even deserves to be called that) on this topic is conducted here on the thread, I've decided to copy-paste the 'related' PM from freepalestine, so that this whole debate might be forwarded on the forum, rather than in private:

why dont you confront me on it via pm.rather than going off like a blubbering coward on this forum.
thing is krimskrams is that you take it all personal.you dont like palestinians ,and you dont like it when they put out facts about what is happening in the real world.not in internetland krimskrms.
dont forget it aint personal.but if you want that,you wont win.when you back in london:lol:
wondering when yer next going to a bahai solidarity march.

In response: some of us don't see our aim in life to 'confront' people, wherever that is. And some of us participate in the discussion on the forum, rather than running off 'like a blubbering coward' to a PM. That's a bit selfish on the others on the forum, anyway, who might be interested in knowing your opinion on the matter, and might want to participate in the discussion. Of course it's a nice feeling when people want to talk to me and me alone, but in the interests of community, I prefer to include others, as well, if you don't mind...

ComradeMan

14th January 2011, 12:49

Do you agree that the state of Israel and the whole zionist project behind it is evil and racist?

Do you condemn Comrademan's racist support for it?

*I condemn your statist support of Ireland and a capitalist bourgeois nationalism and your frequent postings of music videos with people draped in the Irish flag. A flag which of course is de facto statist and supporting a nation state that upholds property rights. Ireland is a racist state because it defines itself by ethnicity and nationality and guarantees a genetic right of return to people based on three generations from Irish descent whilst it discriminates against asylum seekers and refugees- we still haven't forgotten the Limerick pogrom either..... or the decades of institutionalised racism and discrimination against travellers.

Do you see how ridiculous you are? But you do exactly the equivalent!

BTW- where have I supported the actions of the Israeli government or state in all of this? Look up single state solution with equal rights of self-determination for all citizens while you're at it, and Hadash. If you think that's Zionism.... well....

Israel does not exist in isolation and your singling out of Israel and holding Israel to standards no other country is held up to or could be held up to, in addition to your generalisations and comments about Israelis being scumbags and pigs etc etc etc just make you seem like a closet anti-semite who screams "zionism" when under scrutiny. No other country in the world, not even apartheid South Africa, is/was regularly called on to "abolish itself" etc. Do you think, for example, that New Zealand should be abolished and that all non-Maoris are scumbags? You support some nationalism but not others- and your inaccurate postings about Israeli society show how little you know (and lead me personally to question whether you've actually been there).

I also notice the backtracking here when the issue of Tibet comes up..... ;)

(*Disclaimer: this is a parody not an attack on Irish people or Ireland).

Rafiq

14th January 2011, 20:18

I didnt say they werent, infact I implied that they were...And I didnt defend any regime in the region.

But why do people support Israel?

Racism and ignorance.

How hypocritical that you call me ignorant.

Point out when I said I had any sympathy to the Israeli regime!

That's right, you can't!

Because your right wing mind thinks that "Ooh, I think Krimskrams and Comrademan are Zionist monsters, and they thanked Chapayev's posts, therefore Chapayev is a Zionist who supports the Israeli regime.

I support this many regimes: 0.

Now I can see, anyone who questions the mighty word of "Only the Israeli regime is oppressive in the middle east" get's labeled as someone who supports the Israeli regime!

ComradeMan

14th January 2011, 20:21

Now I can see, anyone who questions the mighty word of "Only the Israeli regime is oppressive in the middle east" get's labeled as someone who supports the Israeli regime!

You see?

Yeah- because I don't post numerous and perhaps inaccurate postings about every last nasty person who could possibly exist in Israel (of whom I am sure there are many), question some of the allegedly pro-Palestinian organisations and support a one state solution and organisations that work for peace and unity, such as Hadash, well.... I'm an evil Zionist.