Why do we excuse or ignore discriminatory views in Hip-Hop? [Archive]

Jimmie Higgins

12th January 2011, 13:47

I have an alternative but related theory: people are too afraid to speak up against hip-hop because they don't want to sound racist.Except for every media pundit and religious figure and right-wing radio DJ who worked sometime in the last 30 years. Blaming hip-hop for "glorification of crime," "disrespect towards women" and general "low-morals" is a pseudo-media-industry of its own. Every time a crime gets reported in Oakland, some armchair crank writes this comment: "Well what do you expect, it's Oakland and because of the hip-hop thug-culture they have there".

How is "hip-hop" glorifying crime any more than any Warner Brothers movie from the 1930s, many country songs are about criminals and murderers, metal music is all "low morals" and so on. How is "hip-hop" "too materialistic" in a society like this that gives people respect based on how much money they have? How is it too violent in a country with the death penalty and 2+ wars going on, and a national anthem glorifying war?

So I'll say it: it's racism.

In part, every popular new music style has faced similar criticism as music went from being an upper-class thing or a church thing for the lower-classes. Pop music, rock, blues, country and hip-hop is just folk music for the electric and mass-media age and folk-music has always been considered degenerate by the ruling class it developed under.

Of course there's reactionary content in hip-hop, there's reactionary ideas all over this society. but when have you seen a thread saying that rock should be opposed because it promotes sexism (as it often does)? Where are the RevLeft threads demanding that Hollywood gangster movies be banned? People criticize individual songs or performers for instances of reactionary ideas, but we don't want any music banned. Radicals see the social problems reflected in movies and music coming from the fundamental way that this society is set up, so worrying about the generalized ancillary effects is politically useless.

So I'll say it again, singling out hip-hop in this society for causing social problems is based out of racism. Even early hatred of Rock was based on fear of "race music" influencing the youth.

Edit: I would oppose a rapper if their entire intent was to spread reactionary ideas - like if there was a Neo-Nazi rap group or if KRS-1 started making benefit albums for Alex Jones. It's the same with other media - I still might see a Arnold movie if it got good reviews even though I'd also love to see him in jail as a politician :D. Hell, I'll even watch and enjoy the "Road Warrior" and still hate Mel Gibson as a racist Anti-Semitic asshole. But if he made a movie to promote his politics, I'd protest the anti-semetic message.

Pirate Utopian

12th January 2011, 13:47

I don't care what Method Man thinks. I like his music. It's not like he's pretending to be a revolutionary socialist (unlike some other homophobic rapper) so why be shocked if he has views different from it?

Let me just speak as a hardcore gangsta muthaphukka that I think gay people can be gangsta.

Sasha

12th January 2011, 14:11

Let me just speak as a hardcore gangsta muthaphukka that I think gay people can be gangsta.

no straight can be as gangsta as ronnie kray was (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kray_twins)

not to mention this lad:

xpml251NxGw

http://www.irishabroad.com/news/irish-voice/entertainment/Articles/gay-gangster030708.aspx

Palingenisis

12th January 2011, 16:11

I really like older New Afrikan/Black nation music...I dont like Hip-Hop or rap at all aesthetically but also a lot of it promotes Amerikkkan pig values ("Life aint nothing but *****es and money...:rolleyes:). Basically the same greed and brutality that is in no way subversive but is what the capitalist system is based on.

gtLcELU1brA

eh9WayN7R-s

Havet

12th January 2011, 16:16

Why do we excuse or ignore discriminatory views in Hip-Hop?

because you can't generalize

1VRZq3J0uz4

gorillafuck

12th January 2011, 16:19

I think that musicians and entertainers in general are held to a lower standard the groups and politicians.

#FF0000

12th January 2011, 16:44

Yeah I generally don't care what people who make music think as long as they keep their stupid views out of their music. This goes for every genre.

Revolution starts with U

12th January 2011, 17:29

What's this "we" nonsense?

apawllo

12th January 2011, 17:35

Hip-hop I think has an image it wants to uphold ..... shock and controversy sells.

Where's the shock and controversy in selling sexism and homophobia? Seems like the status quo, really. It's in most pop music anymore.

Pirate Utopian

12th January 2011, 17:40

Psycho, I'm bisexual so I can and am even more gangsta than the Kray twins have ever been.
I'm the first member of both the Bloods and the Crips.

New Afrikan/Black nation music (...) Amerikkkan pig values

lol who the fuck talks like that?

Palingenisis

12th January 2011, 17:42

lol who the fuck talks like that?

Nerdy Maoists.....??? :blushing:

ChaChaman

12th January 2011, 18:06

Manic Impressive

12th January 2011, 18:52

because you can't generalize
I'm not generalizing I didn't say all hip hop I'm not criticizing the whole genre I'm saying that there is a huge element of sexism and homophobia with some rappers and why do we (me included) just ignore it.

How is "hip-hop" glorifying crime any more than any Warner Brothers movie from the 1930s, many country songs are about criminals and murderers, metal music is all "low morals" and so on. How is "hip-hop" "too materialistic" in a society like this that gives people respect based on how much money they have? How is it too violent in a country with the death penalty and 2+ wars going on, and a national anthem glorifying war?No one said anything about crime, I have no problem with that. What I do have a problem with is hateful messages in the actual songs.

So I'll say it: it's racism.

In part, every popular new music style has faced similar criticism as music went from being an upper-class thing or a church thing for the lower-classes. Pop music, rock, blues, country and hip-hop is just folk music for the electric and mass-media age and folk-music has always been considered degenerate by the ruling class it developed under. Are you calling me racist? If you are prove it or fuck right off.
I'm sure you could find some country songs about killing homosexuals and beating women but anyone posting that on here should be promptly restricted if not banned. But that wouldn't be the same for a Hip-Hop song. I'm also not saying I want people banned for posting reactionary hip hop, I just think some of us (me included) are a little hypocritical for fighting against homophobia and sexism while listening to some twisted guys talking about "pimping their *****es" or "killing a faggot".

I don't care what Method Man thinks. I like his music. It's not like he's pretending to be a revolutionary socialist (unlike some other homophobic rapper) so why be shocked if he has views different from it?

Yeah I generally don't care what people who make music think as long as they keep their stupid views out of their music. This goes for every genre.
It ain't just about Method Man either I just used that quote as an example as it was in the other thread and inspired me to make this one as it's something I've been thinking about for a while. It is the lyrical content of a lot of songs I could give examples of. Yeah, I like the music some of the most reactionary lyrics are accompanied by some of the best beats. Dre and Snoop are two of the best examples.

Where's the shock and controversy in selling sexism and homophobia? Seems like the status quo, really. It's in most pop music anymore.
Really? care to give an example of any other genre where glorifying the exploitation of women and violence against homosexuals is as prevalent? I'm sure there is some punk and country songs that are completely reactionary but they hardly count as pop or mainstream. Most pop music uses sex to sell it's songs but it's hardly on the same level as a man proudly declaring himself a pimp.

Do I really have to post examples of what I'm talking about? or can anyone actually look at something that they like objectively?

Manic Impressive

12th January 2011, 18:56

Hip-hop isn't the only genre of music that is degrading women left and right, sadly. It's an easy target though, I understand but people forget about when political hip-hop started in the 80's and when the music was actually giving a message and not how much money they are making.
I certainly haven't forgotten it, people like Grand Master Flash, public enemy and a tribe called quest to name a few had very progressive messages and there are still a few groups that do. But even they had homophobic messages in their lyrics :( but they are not 1/2 as bad as what followed them.

Havet

12th January 2011, 19:06

I'm not generalizing I didn't say all hip hop I'm not criticizing the whole genre I'm saying that there is a huge element of sexism and homophobia with some rappers and why do we (me included) just ignore it.

That element is also present in Pop music and many other genres. I don't understand why you decided to focus only on Hip Hop/Rap

Manic Impressive

12th January 2011, 19:22

That element is also present in Pop music and many other genres. I don't understand why you decided to focus only on Hip Hop/Rap
Provide some examples of anything as bad as there is in any other popular music. Two reasons why I'm focusing on hip-hop. First because that's the music I'm listening to most at the moment which is why I've begun feeling like a hypocrite for enjoying it when it has a reactionary message and secondly because we have a lot of other hip hop heads on here and I want to know if they've even considered it and if they are even capable of doing so and if so how do they justify it.

I really can't see an argument that other mainstream music genres are proportionally more reactionary than a lot of hip hop.

Palingenisis

12th January 2011, 19:27

The whole thing about we are here to re-produce seems very Roman Catholic.

Sex has purposes outside of reproduction...Is saying people who cant have kids should abstain for hetrosexual sex?

apawllo

12th January 2011, 20:05

Really? care to give an example of any other genre where glorifying the exploitation of women and violence against homosexuals is as prevalent? I'm sure there is some punk and country songs that are completely reactionary but they hardly count as pop or mainstream. Most pop music uses sex to sell it's songs but it's hardly on the same level as a man proudly declaring himself a pimp.

Do I really have to post examples of what I'm talking about? or can anyone actually look at something that they like objectively?

I can't give any examples of pop music, as I don't listen to it unless I'm in the car with someone who does, or out at a bar or club that plays it. Based on those experiences, if you turn on your local top 40 station I'd bet that you'd hear something sexist within the first couple of songs.

At any rate, as far as the hip-hop I've heard goes, most times I don't think it's a glorification so much as a reflection of those artists communities, what they know, and what they've been through.

Manic Impressive

12th January 2011, 20:08

from one of my favourite albums
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MKWpQDBvBbM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aYLZXneqZUQ

not on youtube but also check A Tribe called Quest :crying: featuring brand nubian "Georgie Porgie"

ComradeMan

12th January 2011, 20:09

I've been saying this for a long time- the values in rap and hip-hop have changed- this has been going on since the 90s. Whereas the Watts Prophets, NWA and Public Enemy did have a kind of message these days it seems to be just about glorifying crime (parody I suppose they would argue).

On the other hand a lot of music could be deemed reactionary or whatever.

Sasha

12th January 2011, 20:38

Provide some examples of anything as bad as there is in any other popular music. Two reasons why I'm focusing on hip-hop. First because that's the music I'm listening to most at the moment which is why I've begun feeling like a hypocrite for enjoying it when it has a reactionary message and secondly because we have a lot of other hip hop heads on here and I want to know if they've even considered it and if they are even capable of doing so and if so how do they justify it.

I really can't see an argument that other mainstream music genres are proportionally more reactionary than a lot of hip hop.

Biohazard.

12th January 2011, 20:51

It should never be excused, but I don't see why we should focus our efforts on targeting homophobes and sexism in a marginalized, subaltern culture, when there is so much homophobia and sexism (and racism) in the prevailing bourgeois culture and their supports in evangelical and survivalist sub-cultures.

Manic Impressive

12th January 2011, 21:03

Biohazard.

I had no idea who they were so had to look them up

The band formed in 1987 in the Bensonhurst (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bensonhurst) neighborhood of Brooklyn (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brooklyn). The original lineup consisted of bassist/vocalist Evan Seinfeld (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evan_Seinfeld), guitarist Bobby Hambel, and drummer Anthony Meo. Guitarist/vocalist Billy Graziadei joined the band soon after. Their first demo tape, released in 1988, caused a stir with journalists who felt that the band's lyrics displayed certain fascist (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fascism) and white supremacist (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_supremacy) views, despite the fact that Seinfeld himself was Jewish. Accusations of racism in their music were strenuously denied by the band, but in later interviews, Seinfeld and Graziadei explained that it had all been a publicity stunt to win over the band Carnivore (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carnivore_%28band%29) and their fans. Eventually, the songs in question were no longer played or even mentioned, and the band began preaching a message of tolerance and anti-racism.

kind of reminds me of this

SO SORRY As the Beastie Boys become Beastie Men, they are looking back with shame on some of their early antics. Adam ''Ad-Rock'' Horovitz wrote a letter to Time Out New York publicly apologizing for the homophobic lyrics in the trio's first album, ''Licensed to Ill'' (which was originally supposed to be titled ''Don't Be a Faggot''). ''I would like to... formally apologize to the entire gay and lesbian community for the s---ty and ignorant things we said on our first record,'' Horovitz wrote. ''There are no excuses. But time has healed our stupidity.... We have learned and sincerely changed since the '80s.... We hope that you'll accept this long overdue apology.''

Psycho what would be your reaction to someone posting a video with racist lyrics on this site? I reckon you'd drop the ban hammer pretty fucking quick and rightly so. But probably not for a hip hop video does this then mean that there is a distinction between forms of discrimination, is racism worse than sexism or homophobia?

I'm not trying to be a dick I'm just trying to work out if there is a difference and if so why?

p.s. I'm also pretty devastated about that tribe called quest song it is seriously fucking sick.

Sasha

12th January 2011, 21:31

I mentioned Biohazard as they are the most despicable homophobes I could come up with.

Havet

12th January 2011, 21:32

First because that's the music I'm listening to most at the moment which is why I've begun feeling like a hypocrite for enjoying it when it has a reactionary message

Maybe you should listen to other rap artists

Provide some examples of anything as bad as there is in any other popular music

Regarding sexism (http://thefbomb.org/2009/07/the-music-industry-and-its-best-friend-sexism/)

Regarding homophobia (some rock included):

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Money_for_Nothing_(song)#Controversy

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/One_in_a_Million_(Guns_N'_Roses_song)#Controversy

http://www.guardian.co.uk/music/musicblog/2008/aug/08/arekatyperryslyricshomopho

http://lineout.thestranger.com/2007/04/homophobic_christian_pop_punk

http://www.nytimes.com/1994/07/24/arts/l-pop-music-a-dead-violent-generation-734845.html

Robert

12th January 2011, 21:51

How is "hip-hop" glorifying crime any more than any Warner Brothers movie from the 1930s, many country songs are about criminals and murderers, metal music is all "low morals" and so on.
WTF??? :lol: Gangster movies like Little Caesar, White Heat, and The Public Enemy depicted gangsters in an unfavorable light! The protagonists all got killed or went to the pen. In Angels with Dirty Faces, Cagney went to the electric chair. How's that for a pro-crime slant?

Country music may be a mixed story: In Folsum Prison Blues,#1 in 1968 and covered by EVERYBODY, Johnny Cash sings "But i know I had it comin', I know I can't be free." Lots of other country artists sing "about" crime; that's not the same as glorifying it or advocating it.

And metal music? Ozzy is as white as the driven snow and has been maligned by the mainstream as any star you can name -- he still gets grief for his language and his drug and alcohol abuse.

Your "racism" theory also can't be reconciled with the fabulous mainstream commercial success, across racial lines, of such black recording artists as Louis Armstrong, Nat King Cole, Duke Ellington, Dionne Warwick, Count Basie, Ella Fitzgerald, Charley Pride, Fats Domino, Al Green, Bill Withers, Otis Redding, Chubby Checker, the Four Tops, The Supremes, and (I'm a big Motown fan and could go on and on!) These success go back to the 30's even before basic civil rights legislation.

Anyway, the OP asks why we excuse discriminatory views in hip hop. And we do. Indubitably.

Manic Impressive

12th January 2011, 22:14

Katy Perry sings things that are definitely far-off from being feminist, including her conclusion that women aren’t good if they’re attracted to other women (this is pretty obvious in “I Kissed a Girl” when she sings that “it’s not what good girls do”).
I personally find that a little tenuous but the article is about the sexism behind the scenes and to do with using sex as a marketing ploy. That's quite far from advocating shooting homosexuals and calling every woman a ***** or a whore.

but in truth the debate around UR So Gay and I Kissed a Girl, which offer intriguing perspectives on masculinity and femininity respectively, should be less about sexuality and more focussed on gender politics. It's a recurring theme on Perry's debut album One of the Boys Guardian article was defending her

The observations of the character included references to a musician "banging on the bongos like a chimpanzee" and a description of a singer as "that little faggot (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Faggot_%28slang%29) with the earring and the make-up", and lamenting that the artists got "money for nothing and chicks for free". These lyrics were widely criticised as sexist (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sexism), racist (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Racism) and homophobic (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homophobic) statements, and in some later releases of the song the lyrics were edited for airplay; "faggot" for example is often replaced with "mother" (itself a shortened version of another potentially offensive phrase in this context). This surprised me a bit but personally I don't see it as bad as the majority of hip hop even a progressive song like "the message" is worse than that. Also I think the song is more about this
Mötley Crüe (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M%C3%B6tley_Cr%C3%BCe) bassist Nikki Sixx (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nikki_Sixx), in an interview with Blender Magazine (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blender_Magazine), claimed that the song is actually about his band's excessive lifestyle, and that he heard the clerks in the store were commenting on Mötley Crüe videos shown on the in-store television sets.

Turned stickup kid, look what you've done did
Got sent up for a eight year bid
Now your manhood is took and you're a may tag
Spend the next two years as a undercover fag
Being used and abused to serve like hell
Till one day you was found hung dead in a cell

Guns & Roses what can I say Axel is a dick

Although still wrong and in some cases utterly reactionary it's still not as bad as even some of the milder hip hop songs IMO.

ComradeMan

12th January 2011, 22:17

In support of Manic he was talking about hip hop. The fact that some mad Norwegian satanic metal group into viking runes and sacrificing animals or whatever is just as, if not more, reactionary does not detract from his argument about modern rap and hip hop, which in terms of the mainstream has very negative and nasty values that it conveys. I also think it promotes negative views of African-Americans too, but that's just my opinion- FFS more kids probably know about Snoop than Martin Luther King, that can't be right.

Robert

12th January 2011, 22:18

To be clear, I have no problem with any "reactionary" dimensions of hip hop. That may be its one redeeming feature. :lol:

Manic Impressive

12th January 2011, 22:20

I mentioned Biohazard as they are the most despicable homophobes I could come up with.
ah ok fair enough I did listen to a couple of their songs but couldn't understand the lyrics.

I know racism and homophobia is rife within sections of punk and hardcore but I highly doubt any leftist punks would listen to those bands even if the music is good. So why is it not the same for leftists who like hip hop why do we continue to praise and defend those who hold reactionary views and in the worst cases actually advocate killing people?

Rafiq

12th January 2011, 22:28

Eminem has produced an even more homophobic and disgusting song.

Robert

12th January 2011, 22:30

Well, fuck Eminem, too.

Just for my information, what is the name of the Eminem song?

And I can't even believe I forgot to cite the white audiences' embrace of Michael Jackson, Jimi Hendrix and the GREAT Little Stevie Wonder.

Stevie (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o4x7V7u_HUg&feature=related)! God I love him.

Rafiq

12th January 2011, 23:13

The song is eminem constantly shouting "Faq, Faq, Faq" to make it sound like "Fag" and started rambling on about how much he hates Homosexuals and their ways of having sexual intercourse.

Quite pathetic actually, but I'm not surprised, coming from a dirt bag fuck up like Eminem.

Lt. Ferret

13th January 2011, 01:31

dontchu hate a shy *****?
man i hate a shy *****.
dontchu hate a shy *****?
man i hate a shy *****.

A Revolutionary Tool

13th January 2011, 02:08

I know what you mean Manic. I've been trying to get back into hip-hop again after listening to so much rock but so many songs I used to listen to have such sexist and homophobic lyrics it makes it hard to enjoy it.

I was also surprised by Ice Cubes racism...

brigadista

13th January 2011, 02:50

interesting take by bel hooks - its quite old but still worth a look.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xtoanes_L_g

Publius

13th January 2011, 03:35

I think we need to post some progressive songs.

Here's my favorite anti-racist song: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2nGw_vAnqPI

So witty.

apawllo

13th January 2011, 04:14

I was also surprised by Ice Cubes racism...

racial issues were a catalyst for things like the 5 percent movement in hip-hop, which was largely subverted in the mainstream by the end of the 90s. like i said before though, things like these are results of environmental issues. some of these issues have been produced "organically" and others manufactured by the industry as shown in the video posted by brigadista. i guess, just choose your hip-hop wisely, if and you're not feeling it, you're not feeling it. there's really no reason to attack an art form for what ultimately boils down to systemic failures though.

Lt. Ferret

13th January 2011, 04:18

Don't fucking sit there and excuse racism for gods sake what kind of fucking leftist are you.

13th January 2011, 04:23

Something about striking at the root rather than hacking at branches...

apawllo

13th January 2011, 04:29

Don't fucking sit there and excuse racism for gods sake what kind of fucking leftist are you.

if you're not being sarcastic, feel free to explain how i excused any racism

Lt. Ferret

13th January 2011, 04:38

racial issues were a catalyst for things like the 5 percent movement in hip-hop, which was largely subverted in the mainstream by the end of the 90s. like i said before though, things like these are results of environmental issues. some of these issues have been produced "organically" and others manufactured by the industry as shown in the video posted by brigadista. i guess, just choose your hip-hop wisely, if and you're not feeling it, you're not feeling it. there's really no reason to attack an art form for what ultimately boils down to systemic failures though.

are you excusing it because they had a harsh upbringing? that was how i interpreted it.

Jimmie Higgins

13th January 2011, 04:44

I'm not generalizing I didn't say all hip hop I'm not criticizing the whole genre I'm saying that there is a huge element of sexism and homophobia with some rappers and why do we (me included) just ignore it.Do we - wasn't there some thread about Immortal Techniqe? And now one about Method Man's quote? There's nothing wrong with saying "X performer is reactionary when he/she says..." or that this song or lyric is reactionary. Method Man's quote is fucked up and should be called out.

The racism part is when people say (and they often do) that hip-hop is basically degenerate or whatnot. In the US, hip-hop is singled out for criticism and blamed for social problems.

Are you calling me racist? If you are prove it or fuck right off.I was not saying you are racist, I was speaking generally of criticism of hip-hop in the US and didn't intend to give that impression.

I'm sure you could find some country songs about killing homosexuals and beating women but anyone posting that on here should be promptly restricted if not banned. But that wouldn't be the same for a Hip-Hop song. Really? If the point of the hip-hop song was all about beating your wife or something, it wouldn't cause an uproar? I doubt that. And if someone posted a Johnny Cash song about murdering people or a country song with a reference to a man who beat his wife or a cool clip from some Scorsese or Tarintino movie that happens to also contain some incidental racial expletives or sexist language... would that member be banned? I doubt it, I think we'd know that the point of the clip is not that one character calls someone a "stupid *****" or says "fagot" among other expletives, we'd chalk it up to the fact that that's the kind of society we live in, there are lots of reactionary ideas out there.

Really? care to give an example of any other genre where glorifying the exploitation of women and violence against homosexuals is as prevalent? The movie industry, metal...

At a Godsmack show on October 9 in Connecticut, frontman Sully Erna was trying to whip the crowd into a frenzy so that they would start forming a mosh pit. If you've been to a hard-rock or metal show, this sort of cajoling is hardly anything new, but unfortunately Erna's exact instructions (http://www.roadrunnerrecords.com/blabbermouth.net/news.aspx?mode=Article&newsitemID=147568) were a little more unique. After warning the crowd that they'd be "pussies" if they didn't start moving, Erna said that he didn't want his audience standing still, trying to get a rise out of them by suggesting that "maybe you should be going to see a Creed (http://rock.about.com/od/creed/p/creed.htm) show." When there was some push-back from the crowd about that last comment, Erna lambasted Creed frontman Scott Stapp, using a six-letter homophobic slur.
The song's lyrics caused great controversy among many different groups, and accusations of homophobia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homophobia) and racism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Racism) were leveled against Guns N' Roses' lead singer and song lyricist, Axl Rose.
Homme says "We're Queens of the fucking Stone Age" in a way that seemed dumb and not tough to me. They were definitely trying too hard. People that are really tough don't have to make such a big deal of it. Anyway after maybe the third song he says some bullshit about "Who wants to get laid tonight?" people cheer and then he says, to paraphrase, "well, if you want to get laid then quit slamming into each other up front like a bunch of homos".
I'm sure there is some punk and country songs that are completely reactionary but they hardly count as pop or mainstream. Most pop music uses sex to sell it's songs but it's hardly on the same level as a man proudly declaring himself a pimp.What about the movie "Pretty Woman" what about every cock-rock hair-metal bullshit song about groupie sex? This is the kind of society we live in, so I don't think the left should single out one art form or genre for prevalent ideas and attitudes in this society.

Lt. Ferret

13th January 2011, 04:48

sounds like you're making excuses.

Robert

13th January 2011, 04:48

i guess, just choose your hip-hop wisely, if and you're not feeling it, you're not feeling it.

A little opaque, but it sounds like you're saying one or more of the following:

that it doesn't matter whether the music is racist;

or that if it is, the industry and not the artist bears responsiblity;

that it's inappropriate to make judgments against art;

and that one can accept it or reject it on the basis of taste, but not on values.

And I think 100% of that is bullshit. But I may be misunderstanding your post.

apawllo

13th January 2011, 04:58

are you excusing it because they had a harsh upbringing? that was how i interpreted it.

i'm not excusing it. i don't think anyone should be racist, sexist, or homophobic. like i said earlier in the thread though, a lot of these artists are just reflections of their communities, and yeah...i'm quite sure ice cube experienced a fair amount of racism in his younger years. although reactionary, he espoused some slightly racist views early on. no excuses, but this is going to happen in our society...

apawllo

13th January 2011, 05:00

A little opaque, but it sounds like you're saying one or more of the following:

that it doesn't matter whether the music is racist;

or that if it is, the industry and not the artist bears responsiblity;

that it's inappropriate to make judgments against art;

and that one can accept it or reject it on the basis of taste, but not on values.

And I think 100% of that is bullshit. But I may be misunderstanding your post.

i'm saying that no one's holding a gun to your head while you're listening to the music.

Robert

13th January 2011, 05:11

apawllo

13th January 2011, 05:37

Well, sure, but the question by the OP is why its sexist and other "reactionary" aspects are not denounced by the left. It's a huge part of contemporary culture and is shaping minds and attitudes and values and outlooks.

To say that one can simply turn the radio off is the same as turning a blind eye to it.

Either that or you can attempt to dispose of anyone who says anything remotely sexist, homophobic, or racist. Then, of course the question is, what exactly constitutes racism, homophobia, and sexism, and who gets to make those decisions?

Hiero

13th January 2011, 05:50

Music is an enunciation of life. Hip Hop originally come from the working class and the under class communities. In thoose communities speach and expressions is often very raw and abrasive, which is an enunciation of the hardship facing thoose communities. This is different in stable working class (long term employment) and middle class communities who have some access to symbolic expression and can master euphemisms. In movies this is often displayed when the lower class person becomes the joke of upper class people when he take their speach as literal.

Method Man came from a underclass community where gangesters are idiolised due to their ability to transcend the poverty around them. They can build respect in places that have no respect. In these communities violence is traded and normalised. The gangster has dominance in this area. Gay men being depicted as sub-males and have no perceived ability to master the culture of physical violence which is predominantly a realm of men, hence Method Man says "I don’t think any gay dude is gangsta, period." It is a question of "nature" and nature as biological rules that determine society. Methods Man's homophobia reflects the deeper role of violence and dominance in poverty stricken and marginalised communities.

On one side Hip Hop is a realist and nihilistic enunication of communities that have direct connection to their world, unlike middle class communities that build symbolic barries. On the other side Hip Hop generates creativity and creates it's own euphemisms, it's slang and own linguistic rules. The metaphors are amazing in some cases, when someone explain to be the tittle "Only Built for Cuban Linx" I surpised a the complex use of metaphors. And I think this is the potential of working class culture and hence the motiviation for revolution.

At least that is how I am trying to analyse it in a Marxist influenced anthropology framework. It is not about holding "ethnic communities" to lower standards. It is about acknowledge the inequality that is economic, social, cultural and symobolic between dominant communities that have stability and whose violence is symbolic and dominanted communities who lack stablity and where violence is actualised in the flesh. And hence the inability of gay men to dominant this violent landscape.

I for one am not going to be some typical middle class vanguard of morals who merely tell other people who to live and behave. Rather I would pefer the criticial thinking strategy and denounce the conditions of existance. For instance telling Method Man that the Kray Twins were gay is in some dismissescriticism of poverty and capitalism. "Gay people can be masculine too and bash people up" is not an alternative though it may work on a individual leve, rather it is better to show that this violence is due to inequality, marganlisation, discrimination and structural racism. I think that is what activist like Malcolm X did best.

Revolution starts with U

13th January 2011, 06:29

The question implies that the left IS after other forms of art or music. Are they? Isn't that a rightwing "protecting the culture" thing?
I'm pretty sure the left has more important things to focus on

And again, I don't excuse any of this behavior. A lot of rappers are sexist homophobes. And Beethoven loved Napoleon... what of it?
So what's all this "we" nonsense?

#FF0000

13th January 2011, 06:35

Who the fuck cares about Ice Cube honestly

ComradeMan

13th January 2011, 07:51

Don't fucking sit there and excuse racism for gods sake what kind of fucking leftist are you.

Just for once the Lieutenent shows you up.

The points Manic has made are perfectly valid. The people who make Nazi punk and rock are also "working" class- do we accept that shit because it's only music? No!

But perhaps a valid question has been raised about a lot of music a lot of people here listen to yet because it's something they like all of a sudden it's not important anymore and clever excuses can be made.

Bourgeois hedonism.

#FF0000

13th January 2011, 08:03

Bourgeois hedonism.

This part made your entire post fucking stupid.

Anyway what did Ice Cube say that was racist?

ComradeMan

13th January 2011, 08:11

This part made your entire post fucking stupid.

Anyway what did Ice Cube say that was racist?

Why?

I wasn't talking specifically about Ice-Cube.

#FF0000

13th January 2011, 08:18

Why?

Because it's a stupid phrase to throw around. What does it even mean?

You throw words like "reactionary" and "bourgeois hedonism" around like the worst of the stalinoids and then you take other political positions that people call you a "liberal" over.

I don't understand you at all. :mellow:

#FF0000

13th January 2011, 08:18

Also I'm really curious as to what Ice Cube said that was racist.

ComradeMan

13th January 2011, 08:20

Because it's a stupid phrase to throw around. What does it even mean?

You throw words like "reactionary" and "bourgeois hedonism" around like the worst of the stalinoids and then you take other political positions that people call you a "liberal" over.

I don't understand you at all. :mellow:

So what you don't understand is stupid? Interesting....

Bourgeois hedonism.... think about it, think who buys the music and who listens to the music and what the music says and also who is "defending" the music here.... meditate on that for a while.

#FF0000

13th January 2011, 08:29

So what you don't understand is stupid? Interesting....

lol no you silly guy. I just don't understand how you can invoke the worst of the Stalinists and the worst of the dumb baby Social Democrats at the same time like you do. :lol:

Bourgeois hedonism.... think about it, think who buys the music and who listens to the music and what the music says and also who is "defending" the music here.... meditate on that for a while.

How about instead of using that dumb term like this is a politburo roleplaying society you call them "wrong" or "hypocrites" or something.

ComradeMan

13th January 2011, 09:02

lol no you silly guy. I just don't understand how you can invoke the worst of the Stalinists and the worst of the dumb baby Social Democrats at the same time like you do. :lol: How about instead of using that dumb term like this is a politburo roleplaying society you call them "wrong" or "hypocrites" or something.

A rose by any other name would still be a ......

That was a very quick "meditation"....

Let me explain- a lot of decent and hardworking yet poor people from the "ghetto" might find it offensive that they are portrayed as gangsters and drug-dealers in music that then makes it "fashionable" and "cool" to go around acting and dressing etc like a lumpen-criminal- re-enforcing bourgeois class stereotypes of the ghetto and poorer people. Certain rappers with gang affiliation etc etc... what do they do for the working class?

#FF0000

13th January 2011, 09:06

Let me explain- a lot of decent and hardworking yet poor people from the "ghetto" might find it offensive that they are portrayed as gangsters and drug-dealers in music that then makes it "fashionable" and "cool" to go around acting and dressing etc like a lumpen-criminal- re-enforcing bourgeois class stereotypes of the ghetto and poorer people. Certain rappers with gang affiliation etc etc... what do they do for the working class?

Oh no I totally understand that. That's actually exactly why i don't listen to a good amount of Southern rap in particular.

ComradeMan

13th January 2011, 09:13

Oh no I totally understand that. That's actually exactly why i don't listen to a good amount of Southern rap in particular.

Right, so it wasn't so dumb and stupid really was it? ;)

Yet again we see something that started as a means of liberation and emancipation get turned into a moneymaking weapon against the oppressed classes by lumpen class traitors in collusion with reactionary forces of capital.

I don't know about "Southern rap"- what is that? Stuff about "Dixieland" etc?

#FF0000

13th January 2011, 09:26

Right, so it wasn't so dumb and stupid really was it? ;)

Oh no it still was because, I mean, come on. "Bourgeois hedonism"? Really? :mellow:

I don't know about "Southern rap"- what is that? Stuff about "Dixieland" etc?Southern hip hop. A lot of people call it "crunk". It includes artists like Lil Jon, Ying Yang Twins, and a ton of just awful rappers who are bad at what they do and act like clowns. It's just party music. Southern hip hop is garbage (but not all rappers from the South are garbage!)

A quote from the RZA on this Southern nonsense.

How has the South dominated hip hop for the last four, five years without lyrics, without hip hop culture really in their blood? Those brothers came out representing more of a stereotype of how black people are, and I think the media would rather see us as ignorant, crazy motherfuckers than seeing us as intelligent young men trying to rise and take care of ourselves

ComradeMan

13th January 2011, 09:37

Robert

13th January 2011, 12:03

What does it even mean?

Bourgeois hedonism = wife swapping in the suburbs.

http://t0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcS_78sBQ9pjg2wzgeTqFntTgHqPSym5B xRocERULueMnnME_Hcg

Pirate Utopian

13th January 2011, 13:38

Southern hip hop is garbage

I hate this fucking attitude. Most east coast rappers are just mad over the new competition they have to deal with. Same shit when you had rappers like Tim Dog dissing the west coast with "Fuck Compton".

Nobody was complaining about the south when they were just in the background with the Geto Boys or UGK. But now when they get their time in the spotlight everyone calls them the death of hip-hop.

Listen to Curren$y, Bun B, Outkast and tell me they cant rap. Even alt-hiphop kids can enjoy Jay Electronica.

The south is getting attacked over the same shit the west coast and east coast did before them. Drugs, sex, violence, profanity? The south is hardly the first.

I'd like to know what the south does wrong that east and west coast hip-hop didnt.
Long live the south. Especially chopped and screwed music.

P.S. Crunk is more than just Lil Jon btw. I like Lil Jon as good party music (sorta like a modern day Afrika Bambaataa if you will) but most people who moan about crunk only know Lil Jon. That would like me dismissing rock music based on Nickleback.

bailey_187

13th January 2011, 13:55

this "southern hip hop is shit" stuff is like left over from 2006 when Crunk was popular. It isnt the dominant section of hip hop coming from the south anymore, but how long will people keep saying it lol?

People love to act all high and mighty, saying "hip hhop isnt what it used ot be", but how many of them have heard the latest Curren$y cd? or Yelawolf? Or know who OFWGKTA are? They just stay trapped listening to their "underground" shit and hear the occasional song on the radio they can hate on.

Nothing Human Is Alien

13th January 2011, 14:54

Also I'm really curious as to what Ice Cube said that was racist.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_Certificate_%28album%29#Controversy

While making Death Certificate, Ice Cube was affiliated with the Nation of Islam (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nation_of_Islam), which had a large impact on the majority of the album's content. Death Certificate was roughly organized as two thematic elements of a larger whole, and opens with Cube's explanation: "The Death Side: a mirror image of where we are today; The Life Side: a vision of where we need to go." The first half, therefore, is replete with the tales of drug dealing, whore-mongering and violence expected of a gangsta rap (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gangsta_rap) album in 1991. The second half provided somewhat of a synthesis between that genre and the type of prescriptive messages more often found from artists wholly divorced from the gangsta image.
Both sides, however, provide a more introspective and encouraging outlook that fits with the common conception of gangsta rap. The Death Side's "A Bird in the Hand" laments a young man's slide into a life of drug-dealing after finding that the best jobs available to him with little education and a jail record simply won't pay the bills.
Do I have to sell me a whole lot of crackFor decent shelter and clothes on my back?Or should I just wait for help from Bush (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_H._W._Bush)?Or Jesse Jackson (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesse_Jackson) and Operation PUSH (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_PUSH)? There is no shortage of nihilistic or, at least, criminal posturing either, with the Life Side's "Black Korea" threatening rioting and arson alongside Black entrepreneurship as a response to the preponderance of Korean grocery stores in ghettos across the United States. The track was seen as a response to the death of Latasha Harlins (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Latasha_Harlins), a 15-year-old African American (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/African_American) girl who had been shot by a Korean store owner on March 16, 1991 because the owner erroneously thought Harlins was trying to steal a bottle of orange juice. Considering that the release of the track preceded the Los Angeles Riots (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Los_Angeles_riots_of_1992), in which many of the people targeted were of Korean (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Koreans) descent, Ice Cube was accused of inciting racism by some groups.

apawllo

13th January 2011, 17:19

Just for once the Lieutenent shows you up.

The points Manic has made are perfectly valid. The people who make Nazi punk and rock are also "working" class- do we accept that shit because it's only music? No!

But perhaps a valid question has been raised about a lot of music a lot of people here listen to yet because it's something they like all of a sudden it's not important anymore and clever excuses can be made.

Bourgeois hedonism.

Even if Nazi's made completely apolitical music, hopefully you still wouldn't listen to it. That has less to do with art and more to do with their ideology.

Let me explain- a lot of decent and hardworking yet poor people from the "ghetto" might find it offensive that they are portrayed as gangsters and drug-dealers in music that then makes it "fashionable" and "cool" to go around acting and dressing etc like a lumpen-criminal- re-enforcing bourgeois class stereotypes of the ghetto and poorer people. Certain rappers with gang affiliation etc etc... what do they do for the working class?

HzeZhCt5PVA

Revolution starts with U

13th January 2011, 17:25

I was with you up to the "long live the south quote" Sizzurp.
Fuck the south :thumbdown:

Pirate Utopian

13th January 2011, 17:45

Context, dear boy. I ment it as in southern hip-hop.

Also, I dont hate south US. Never been there. The most southern US city I've been to was Coney Island (to see that themepark from The Warriors).

Jimmie Higgins

13th January 2011, 20:31

Bourgeois hedonism: superficial enjoyment for the bourgeoisie.

Who ultimately makes the money from the rap/hip hop music? ;) (that of course enforces negative stereotypes and a lot of reactionary attitudes).

FFS there are little Italian kids running round using words like "*****" and "nigger" because they think it's cool (they usually don't understand the weight of the words they are using or most of the lyrics).

Who made money from "Goodfellas" or "Pulp Fiction" where murderers and white crooks call people "nigger" and "kike"? Goodfellas ends with a slap in the face to suburban straight-life, suggesting that life as a killer and thug was more fulfilling. Some a lot of hip-hop is unapologetic boasting - much of it role-playing just like in movies - a lot of it is boring bourgeois morality tales about thug-life too.

It's a double standard in US society when hip-hop is a "problem" but Metal is just kids having fun, sexist/racist TV shows are "just comedies, geez, lighten up", and John Wane slapping his female co-star in most of his movies about territorial conquest and native genocide is just plain patriotic.

If people have a problem with sexism or racism, they should fight it, not when it gets reflected in movies or music. The difference with Nazi-punk music is that it exists, above even selling records, to promote a reactionary political view. It's like the difference between a war movie and an Army recruitment video.

ComradeMan

13th January 2011, 20:45

Who made money from "Goodfellas" or "Pulp Fiction" where murderers and white crooks call people "nigger" and "kike"? Goodfellas ends with a slap in the face to suburban straight-life, suggesting that life as a killer and thug was more fulfilling. Some a lot of hip-hop is unapologetic boasting - much of it role-playing just like in movies - a lot of it is boring bourgeois morality tales about thug-life too.

You make a good point and indeed in former times films were not allowed to show profitting from crime unlike today. But there is a difference too, the characters in those films do not become role models and are not (or at least should not be) emulated by people.

It's a double standard in US society when hip-hop is a "problem" but Metal is just kids having fun, sexist/racist TV shows are "just comedies, geez, lighten up", and John Wane slapping his female co-star in most of his movies about territorial conquest and native genocide is just plain patriotic..

Well I don't know about the US situation, but there has been criticism of metal here too- especially the very dark stuff.

[QUOTE=Jimmie Higgins;1987427If people have a problem with sexism or racism, they should fight it, not when it gets reflected in movies or music. The difference with Nazi-punk music is that it exists, above even selling records, to promote a reactionary political view. It's like the difference between a war movie and an Army recruitment video.[/QUOTE]

Likewise some rap and hip hop also promotes a reactionary view- the keyword is "promote"- it makes it glamorous and cool whereas even in films like Goodfellas, Pulp Fiction etc they are not really glorfied and at the end in Goodfellas he talks about how shitty it was.

Jimmie Higgins

13th January 2011, 21:00

You make a good point and indeed in former times films were not allowed to show profitting from crime unlike today. But there is a difference too, the characters in those films do not become role models and are not (or at least should not be) emulated by people. People didn't dress like James Cagney back in the 1930s? They didn't laugh when he shoves his "dame" or hits her with fruit? Yeah movies were required to kill the criminal at the end or arrest him, but that's not why they were popular. Gangster tales in some hip-hop is exactly the same thing - just the fact that most "gangster rappers" take their act from "Scarface" which was a remake of one of those old gangster movies should tell you something. They always kill King Kong in the end, but people go to see it or hear it to see Kong jumping over trains and fighting a T-Rex; they want to see James Cagney making chumps of the cops and bankers and living the high-life, even if it's short because it's more than the rest of us get to have. Just like with rockers or romanticized poets who do hard-drugs and womanize and spend money like water, people like to fantasize about gangsters who don't have to answer to anyone. Most of the people who wear Sid Vicious T-shirts don't really want to become a heroin addict, they just like to fantasize about the image of living a passionate fucked up life of doing whatever the fuck you want. Same thing with the kid listening to Biggie - he's not really going to go out an be a pimp, he just likes the escape of someone who "do like a boss do" and gives orders while we all usually have to be the ones following orders. It's not inherently progressive by a long shot, but it's also not the same as Nazi-music or propaganda of some kind.

Likewise some rap and hip hop also promotes a reactionary view- the keyword is "promote"- it makes it glamorous and cool whereas even in films like Goodfellas, Pulp Fiction etc they are not really glorfied and at the end in Goodfellas he talks about how shitty it was.When Emenem was criticized for anti-gay lyrics, what did he do - he had to apologize and was forced to reconsider the casualness of using these terms. If people criticized Nazi-punk for rascist messages... would they say, "Oh gee, I didn't know that was offensive to anyone... I didn't mean it like that, we just always used to say 'You're such a kike' and 'The white race needs to breed more to defend against the mud-people' all the time in school when we were joking around, but we didn't know that it offended people"? No there is a qualitative difference, no rapper that I am aware of is rapping in order to promote "Pimping" as a real profession or in order to organize a street-level force to bash gays - they are there to entertain people and in the US, myths of the bandit unrestrained by the norms of society who has flashy clothes and fine things without being born rich or stuck working their life away has a timeless appeal since well before hip-hop or audio recording. What are old-west stories - for the 2 or 3 famous lawmen I can remember I can remember stories of at least 5 times as many bandits and villians... who always whored and were sometimes racist and usually showed-off their fancy clothes or guns.

Palingenisis

13th January 2011, 21:23

Anyway what did Ice Cube say that was racist?

People from Imperialist nations have so much "white pride" ingrained into them that they often just dont notice their national chauvinism so that any expression of small/oppressed nation patriotism comes across to them as "racism" or whatever.

ComradeMan

13th January 2011, 21:41

People didn't dress like James Cagney back in the 1930s? They didn't laugh when he shoves his "dame" or hits her with fruit? Yeah movies were required to kill the criminal at the end or arrest him, but that's not why they were popular. Gangster tales in some hip-hop is exactly the same thing - just the fact that most "gangster rappers" take their act from "Scarface" which was a remake of one of those old gangster movies should tell you something. They always kill King Kong in the end, but people go to see it or hear it to see Kong jumping over trains and fighting a T-Rex; they want to see James Cagney making chumps of the cops and bankers and living the high-life, even if it's short because it's more than the rest of us get to have. Just like with rockers or romanticized poets who do hard-drugs and womanize and spend money like water, people like to fantasize about gangsters who don't have to answer to anyone. Most of the people who wear Sid Vicious T-shirts don't really want to become a heroin addict, they just like to fantasize about the image of living a passionate fucked up life of doing whatever the fuck you want. Same thing with the kid listening to Biggie - he's not really going to go out an be a pimp, he just likes the escape of someone who "do like a boss do" and gives orders while we all usually have to be the ones following orders. It's not inherently progressive by a long shot, but it's also not the same as Nazi-music or propaganda of some kind.

When Emenem was criticized for anti-gay lyrics, what did he do - he had to apologize and was forced to reconsider the casualness of using these terms. If people criticized Nazi-punk for rascist messages... would they say, "Oh gee, I didn't know that was offensive to anyone... I didn't mean it like that, we just always used to say 'You're such a kike' and 'The white race needs to breed more to defend against the mud-people' all the time in school when we were joking around, but we didn't know that it offended people"? No there is a qualitative difference, no rapper that I am aware of is rapping in order to promote "Pimping" as a real profession or in order to organize a street-level force to bash gays - they are there to entertain people and in the US, myths of the bandit unrestrained by the norms of society who has flashy clothes and fine things without being born rich or stuck working their life away has a timeless appeal since well before hip-hop or audio recording. What are old-west stories - for the 2 or 3 famous lawmen I can remember I can remember stories of at least 5 times as many bandits and villians... who always whored and were sometimes racist and usually showed-off their fancy clothes or guns.

What a load of shit.

There are huge differences between now and the 1930s.

People weren't killing each other because of James Cagney's gang colours.;)

No one is saying that there aren't problems with other genres, but defending the shit that gets pumped out by "drug gangs" is not progressive whatsoever.

"Murder was the case that they dropped"...

bcbm

13th January 2011, 21:51

you do realize you have a godfather avatar and the user title "il capo," right bro? :lol:

#FF0000

13th January 2011, 22:39

People from Imperialist nations have so much "white pride" ingrained into them that they often just dont notice their national chauvinism so that any expression of small/oppressed nation patriotism comes across to them as "racism" or whatever.

Actually from what people are saying I have to say I agree with them about Ice Cube now.

A Revolutionary Tool

14th January 2011, 00:24

Also I'm really curious as to what Ice Cube said that was racist.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=91gSrtSNdEU

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RpmjRQ5VAQs
Lyrics are in description.
First song is called "Cave *****" which sounds like a racist rant against white women who try to hook up with black guys, the second called "Horny Lil' Devil" which is like a racist rant about white men who try to hook up with black girls. Is laced with this sexism and homophobia we were talking about too.

Palingenisis

14th January 2011, 00:36

First song is called "Cave *****" which sounds like a racist rant against white women who try to hook up with black guys, the second called "Horny Lil' Devil" which is like a racist rant about white men who try to hook up with black girls. Is laced with this sexism and homophobia we were talking about too.

As much as I dont like rap....Given the new Afrikan/Black Nation's occupation and oppression calling even a capitalist who has nothing even to offer to the vast proletarian majiority of his people a "racist" is a bit cheeky.

Again the violence, hatred, etc, etc of the oppressed cannot be compared to that of the oppressor.

Ztrain

14th January 2011, 00:52

well its ridiculous to try to say all hip hop is sexist or homophobic...have you listened to mainstream country,pop or rock...its ridiculous and sort of racist but mostly stupid. for one thing the ghetto and violent crime have existed much longer than hiphop as one can see in 1920s chicago or new york...the ghetto makes the music,the music doesent make the ghetto!

StalinFanboy

14th January 2011, 00:55

All subcultures reflect in many ways the dominant culture, which is bourgeois. I don't necessarily think it's the project of pro-revolutionaries to preserve bourgeois culture, however if you feel some sort of connection to a particular subculture (such as the one i have with hardcore or fixed-gears) then I don't see a problem with you personally looking at ways in which you can contribute to a positive change in it.

But like I said, I don't think this is or should be the project of pro-revolutionaries as pro-revolutionaries.

Revolution starts with U

14th January 2011, 01:21

A Revolutionary Tool

14th January 2011, 02:37

As much as I dont like rap....Given the new Afrikan/Black Nation's occupation and oppression calling even a capitalist who has nothing even to offer to the vast proletarian majiority of his people a "racist" is a bit cheeky.

Again the violence, hatred, etc, etc of the oppressed cannot be compared to that of the oppressor.
New Afrikan/Black Nation's occupation? And a bit cheeky? I don't know about you but racism is racism whether it's coming from a black/white/brown,etc, person. I find it racist when a person says white people are the "devil" and that he wants to chop their dicks off, that white women "have no chest or butts", that the white man is a "savage motherfucker", and that white people are "the prince of darkness, arch enemy, father of evil, hell born, demonic, savage, fierce, viscous, wild, tameless, barbaric, uncontrollable, obstinate beast."
I mean that is shit right out of Nazi propaganda against Jews isn't it. But I can't call it racist because Ice Cube is black? :thumbdown:

Lt. Ferret

14th January 2011, 05:43

synthesis

14th January 2011, 06:22

The crux of this issue to me is that saying "there are no gay gangsters" is essentially comparable to saying saying "there are no gay soldiers." Regardless of the degree of accuracy to those statements, the more important factor is that in violent environments, actual sexuality is ultimately secondary to what is considered to be acceptable levels of masculinity, from which follows acceptable levels of heterosexuality and finally what is considered to be acceptable levels of homophobia.

Of course this doubly affects rappers because they must try harder to appear "gangster."

People weren't killing each other because of James Cagney's gang colours.;)

No one is saying that there aren't problems with other genres, but defending the shit that gets pumped out by "drug gangs" is not progressive whatsoever.

I can't tell if you're being dense, ignorant or both here. (And yes, there is a difference.)

Sir Comradical

14th January 2011, 06:36

This part made your entire post fucking stupid.

Anyway what did Ice Cube say that was racist?

"Horny little devil, you gotta back up
Horny little devil, you can't bust a nut
Lookin at my girlfriend's black skin
You wanna jump in, but she don't like white men
So don't throw that work you fuckin jerk
Or get your punk devil ass hurt motherfucker
She ain't with the pale face
Cause y'all fuck at a snail's pace"

Revolution starts with U

14th January 2011, 07:44

The crux of this issue to me is that saying "there are no gay gangsters" is essentially comparable to saying saying "there are no gay soldiers." Regardless of the degree of accuracy to those statements, the more important factor is that in violent environments, actual sexuality is ultimately secondary to what is considered to be acceptable levels of masculinity, from which follows acceptable levels of heterosexuality and finally what is considered to be acceptable levels of homophobia.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Down-low_(sexual_slang)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mVlL_OJ2udY&feature=related

I can't tell if you're being dense, ignorant or both here. (And yes, there is a difference.)

That's what I'm sayin... it seems like he was just forgetting all the al capones and shit lol.
Glorification of gangster is as american as apple pie... I think I even remember learning about a gangster-like culture in the slums of Rome.

Lt. Ferret

14th January 2011, 08:22

most hip hop pushed through mainstream radio is hyper-capitalist, sexist, homophobic, violent, and generally reactionary.

going "but but but other genres wahhhh" doesnt make it less true.

Revolution starts with U

14th January 2011, 08:43

but saying it is worse is also false. It's the same shit that's been going on for centuries. It may or may not have a higher degree, I would argue not really (accounting for "globalization"). But a duck is still a duck, whether it has a fedora and tommy gun, a bandana and a six shooter, or a "doo rag" and a 9mm.

My problem, is and always has been the use of this word "we." I don't excuse the music, even the one's that I listen to. I chock them up as idiocy. The Narnia series is a celebration of monarchy. That doesn't mean they weren't good books.

ComradeMan

14th January 2011, 08:59

I can't tell if you're being dense, ignorant or both here. (And yes, there is a difference.)

Snoop Dogg is a member of the Rollin' 20 Crips gang in the Eastside of Long Beach,[12] (http://www.revleft.com/vb/#cite_note-Most_Lovable_Pimp-11)[13] (http://www.revleft.com/vb/#cite_note-12) although he stated in 1993 that he never joined a gang.[9] (http://www.revleft.com/vb/#cite_note-NY_Times_1993_Growl-8)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Snoop_Dogg#Personal_life

^ This is the most ignorant, blinded tirade I have ever heard.
People were out killing each other because of Cagney's (or the mafia) gang colours (or families).
You're not even apologizing for the mafia, you're trying to act like it doesn't exist.
I guess it doesn't surprise me seeing as you're italian.....

or as you so succinctly like to put it...
FAIL :thumbdown:

I can't believe how stupid people are being about this because "hip hop" and "rap" are cool.

No one was copying the mafia, and James Cagney wasn't a mafioso he was an actor who didn't even represent mafiosi in his films, it wasn't cool to be like Lucky Luciano and no one was listening to songs by Al Capone pumping reactionary values into their brains via Mp3. The families weren't turing out records glorifying their values and being a Crip or a Blood wasn't also linked to a fashion, albeit violent and negative, statement.

There was no "fashion statement" mafia.

And who the hell glorifies people like the real mafia families? Oh... sorry some rap artists do--- mafioso rap.

There's a complete difference in totality.

As for the comment - you are an Italian- well you can fuck off with your racism to be honest. No one in Italy gllorifies the mafia or thinks they are all cool with cool suits and slick characters other than... cough...in America where it seems people have difficulty separating what they say on TV and in films from reality.

FYI I was listening to the first, dare I say, real hip hop and rap in the early eighties when it did have a message not like the shit these days so fuck off there too.

At the end of the account, Manic was talking about all the reactionary shit that there is in some hip hop and rap music, he wasn't attacking the whole genre and no one was denying that other genres are questionable.

As for the avatar- the avatar represents the puppet master- a reflection on how society is- controlled from above and we are the "puppets" or the pawns. Secondly "il capo" means the chief or the boss- real mafiosi don't even use those words- TV and films decided that they would use those words, thirdly it's a bit of a joke- like Krimskrams being a rabbi;) or like most people here claiming to be leftists.

bcbm

14th January 2011, 09:11

As for the avatar- the avatar represents the puppet master- a reflection on how society is- controlled from above and we are the "puppets" or the pawns. Secondly "il capo" means the chief or the boss- real mafiosi don't even use those words- TV and films decided that they would use those words, thirdly it's a bit of a joke- like Krimskrams being a rabbi;) or like most people here claiming to be leftists.

sick burn hope it gets you "made"

synthesis

14th January 2011, 09:12

Glorification of gangster is as american as apple pie... I think I even remember learning about a gangster-like culture in the slums of Rome.

That wasn't really my point. Anyone who thinks rap/hip-hop engenders gang violence in any meaningful way is a fucking idiot, period.

Nothing Human Is Alien

14th January 2011, 09:14

Lyrics to Ice Cube's "Black Korea":

"Twenty D Energizers."
"Twenty, C Energizer?"
"D, not C, D."
"B Energizer?"
"D motherf**ker, D! Learn to speak english first, alright? D!"
"How many you say?"
"Twenty, motherf**ker, twenty."
"Honey..."
"Mother-f**k you!"

[Ice Cube]
Everytime I wanna go get a f**kin brew
I gotta go down to the store with the two
oriental one-penny countin motherf**kers
that make a nigga made enough to cause a little ruckus
Thinkin every brother in the world's out to take
So they watch every damn move that I make
They hope I don't pull out a gat and try to rob
they funky little store, but bit*h, I got a job
("Look you little Chinese motherf**ker
I ain't tryin to steal none of yo' shit, leave me alone!"
"Mother-f**k you!")
Yo yo, check it out
So don't follow me, up and down your market
Or your little chop suey ass'll be a target
of the nationwide boycott
Juice with the people, that's what the boy got
So pay respect to the black fist
or we'll burn your store, right down to a crisp
And then we'll see ya!
Cause you can't turn the ghetto - into Black Korea

#FF0000

14th January 2011, 09:16

hahaha jesus christ that's awful

Revolution starts with U

14th January 2011, 09:16

I can't believe how stupid people are being about this because "hip hop" and "rap" are cool.

It has nothing to do with hip hop being cool. A lot of country music is just as bad, and it's not cool to me.

No one was copying the mafia, and James Cagney wasn't a mafioso he was an actor who didn't even represent mafiosi in his films, it wasn't cool to be like Lucky Luciano and no one was listening to songs by Al Capone pumping reactionary values into their brains via Mp3.
Well, that's because the Mp3 didn't exist :lol:
But I think you're denying history here. You're acting like the mafia didn't exist. Or that everybody today is a gangster; like mafia glory was a minority position, but gangster glory isn't now. Or idk what... it just doesn't make sense how you can even argue this...

The families weren't turing out records glorifying their values and being a Crip or a Blood wasn't also linked to a fashion, albeit violent and negative, statement.
There was no "fashion statement" mafia.

What you talkin bout? (http://www.google.com/images?hl=en&source=imghp&biw=1276&bih=792&q=mafia+clothes&gbv=2&aq=f&aqi=g3g-m2&aql=&oq=)

And who the hell glorifies people like the real mafia families? Oh... sorry some rap artists do.

:crying:

As for the comment - you are an Italian- well you can fuck off with your racism to be honest. No one in Italy gllorifies the mafia or thinks they are all cool with cool suits and slick characters other than... cough...in America where it seems people have difficulty separating what they say on TV and in films from reality.

whoosh...

(The point was that it seems the only practical difference between the two cultures is that one is black and the other italian. It's an ironic statement on your stance, pointing out that, in practicality, the only way you can hold this position is if you forgive the italian community's gangster culture while at the same time decrying black gangster culture.)

ComradeMan

14th January 2011, 09:20

That wasn't really my point. Anyone who thinks rap/hip-hop engenders gang violence in any meaningful way is a fucking idiot, period.

No anyone who challenges your stance... it seems.

No one was attacking the entire genre- they were talking about elements in the genre promoting negative values and stereotypes.

Art imitates life is true, but life also imitates art.

I guess it doesn't surprise me seeing as you're italian......

I guess it doesn't surprise me seeing as you're....
<national/ethnic/religious> background
=
racism

= FUCK YOU!

ComradeMan

14th January 2011, 09:28

It has nothing to do with hip hop being cool. A lot of country music is just as bad, and it's not cool to me.

Well, that's because the Mp3 didn't exist :lol:

Right, so we are in a different time and talking about different issues qualitatively-... comparisons to James Cagney and Al Capone aren't valid.

But I think you're denying history here. You're acting like the mafia didn't exist. Or that everybody today is a gangster; like mafia glory was a minority position, but gangster glory isn't now. Or idk what... it just doesn't make sense how you can even argue this...

But, but.... no one was arguing about the mafia to start with and no one was denying it didn't exist- "mafa glory" what the fuck is that?

(The point was that it seems the only practical difference between the two cultures is that one is black and the other italian. It's an ironic statement on your stance, pointing out that, in practicality, the only way you can hold this position is if you forgive the italian community's gangster culture while at the same time decrying black gangster culture.)

Show me the Italian groups or the Italian-American groups with a multi-billion dollar industry, fashion genre and "message" that rap about cosa nostra? Films are a different media, and things like the Sopranos and Goodfellas actually show how negative it is.

Several members here have shown how a lot of this music is as reactionary as fuck.

bcbm

14th January 2011, 09:29

I guess it doesn't surprise me seeing as you're....
<national/ethnic/religious> background
=
racism

chauvinism, actually...

unless you would consider christians a race? or italians, for that matter...

RGacky3

14th January 2011, 09:31

I guess it doesn't surprise me seeing as you're....
<national/ethnic/religious> background
=
racism

= FUCK YOU!

Arn't you the one shitting all over Americans without knowing any context at all?

When it comes to hiphop, look at the context, like with ice cube being racist, look at the context, I'm saying its ok or not, but you can't look at that sort of thing without looking at the enviroment it is in.

synthesis

14th January 2011, 09:34

No one was attacking the entire genre- they were talking about elements in the genre promoting negative values and stereotypes.

No, you were saying that rap/hip-hop engenders gang violence, which makes you a fucking idiot, period. (Full stop, whatever.)

ComradeMan

14th January 2011, 09:36

Arn't you the one shitting all over Americans without knowing any context at all?

When it comes to hiphop, look at the context, like with ice cube being racist, look at the context, I'm saying its ok or not, but you can't look at that sort of thing without looking at the enviroment it is in.

No because I said in America, where television is such a powerful and dominant media, I didn't say "because you are an American"- there's a difference. It's the difference between saying "in Italy conformism is widespread as part of society" or "because you're Italian you're a conformist". Think about it.

I think it's people here who don't know the context.

As an aside, Manic wasn't talking about "only in America" as far as I can see. The issues here are not American but global- especially seeing as this music is pumped around the world and emulated etc.

It's really tiring when everything is brought back to "in America" arguments all the time.

ComradeMan

14th January 2011, 09:38

No, you were saying that rap/hip-hop engenders gang violence, which makes you a fucking idiot, period. (Full stop, whatever.)

Are you so stupid you don't actually read what people say? No one was making absolute statements about ALL the fucking genre to start with, people were discussing the reactionary stuff WITHIN the genre- but I suppose that's a subtlety you are to dense to be able to appreciate- shit for brains. I notice how you actually fail to deal with the points and reduce things to crude binary analysis strawmen.

bcbm

14th January 2011, 09:39

no need for the name calling guys come on

synthesis

14th January 2011, 09:41

I think it's people here who don't know the context.

No, the point is that if you are saying that rap/hip-hop is at all responsible for the conditions of inner-city environments and not the other way around then you have completely lost the right to talk about the subject in any way, shape or form.

synthesis

14th January 2011, 09:43

no need for the name calling guys come on

I like to think of it as more of an incredibly clever turn of phrase, but to each their own.

Are you so stupid you don't actually read what people say? No one was making absolute statements about ALL the fucking genre to start with, people were discussing the reactionary stuff WITHIN the genre- but I suppose that's a subtlety you are to dense to be able to appreciate- shit for brains. I notice how you actually fail to deal with the points and reduce things to crude binary analysis strawmen.

Oh, so your subtleties are essentially saying that it's just elements of rap/hip-hop that engender gang violence instead of "the entire genre"? Ah, I see the - wait, no, you're still wrong.

RGacky3

14th January 2011, 09:47

No because I said in America, where television is such a powerful and dominant media

As it is in Europe.

I didn't say "because you are an American"- there's a difference. It's the difference between saying "in Italy conformism is widespread as part of society" or "because you're Italian you're a conformist". Think about it.

I understand there is a difference, but you see how it comes off as douchy right?

I'm sick of Europeans shitting on Americans and/or American culture, as if Europeans are much more civilized.

As an aside, Manic wasn't talking about "only in America" as far as I can see. The issues here are not American but global- especially seeing as this music is pumped around the world and emulated etc.

Look, this is the same argument against metal, against video games but there is NO evidence that these things actually cause MORE violence.

Gang violence in the United States has a long long history, and it has various complex causes, hip hop music does'nt cause it, you don't know what your talking about.

As far as the context, I've lived in areas with gang violence, I'm betting many here do as well, and I'll tell you this, hip hop is not a factor, any more than goodfellas made the mafia.

It's really tiring when everything is brought back to "in America" arguments all the time.

I'm from the United States, I've lived in various countries, I comment on what I know, I don't know much about Italian culture, so I don't comment about it blindly. Thats why people say "In America" because they are from America and they understand the context.

Revolution starts with U

14th January 2011, 09:49

Right, so we are in a different time and talking about different issues qualitatively-... comparisons to James Cagney and Al Capone aren't valid.

Why because it doesn't suit your views? It's still glorification of the same type of culture. Many rap songs also have the gangster going to jail, or daying. It's still the same thing.

But, but.... no one was arguing about the mafia to start with and no one was denying it didn't exist- "mafa glory" what the fuck is that?

Why you can't see that the Godfather, and other type movies glorify the families, is beyond me. Or, as I pointed out, it is you holding on to some racial bigotry, becuase you are italian, that minority support of mafias in the italian community is somehow different than minority support for gangsters in the black community.

Several members here have shown how a lot of this music is as reactionary as fuck.

Yes, a lot of it is. And so is a lot of mafia culture media. That's the point. Why do you make a distinction between the two? They are essentially the same thing.
In case you didn't get the context; pointing out your possible racism, is not racism. I said, it doesn't surprise me that you, being an italian, make a distinction between two things that only have a difference in the culture they come from.

ComradeMan

14th January 2011, 11:30

Why because it doesn't suit your views? It's still glorification of the same type of culture. Many rap songs also have the gangster going to jail, or daying. It's still the same thing.

No it isn't.

Why you can't see that the Godfather, and other type movies glorify the families, is beyond me. Or, as I pointed out, it is you holding on to some racial bigotry, becuase you are italian, that minority support of mafias in the italian community is somehow different than minority support for gangsters in the black community.

They don't glorify the mafia, they show it for what it is.

Secondly- there has been this issue in the Italian media recently after a series about a criminal gang (historic) in Rome started to see sales in t-shirts representing the gang and this kind of romanticisation of something that was very negative- most people were of the opinion it was not good.

Stop trying to turn this into- "because the Italians do something then no one can criticise something else"- that's stupid reasoning.

As for the racial bigotry, sorry- you came out with the racial statement- no one else. If you read through the threads you might also see that some people here, including myself, actually feel that some of the values and lyrics etc of some rap/hip hop music actually engenders racial bigotry. Derp.

Yes, a lot of it is. And so is a lot of mafia culture media..

Yeah and when there are thousands of Italian/Italian-American rap songs promoting the "gangster life" and making it seem cool to be a bigotted, violent misogenyst with homophobic values etc etc etc it will/would be criticised the same- by myself, first and foremost.

Master of perspective aren't we?

That's the point. Why do you make a distinction between the two? They are essentially the same thing.In case you didn't get the context; pointing out your possible racism, is not racism. I said, it doesn't surprise me that you, being an italian, make a distinction between two things that only have a difference in the culture they come from.

You're trying to climb out of a hole you dug for yourself. You are the racist, you are the one who is trying to turn this into a colour/race/ethnic issue- not all rappers are black by the way and not all "gangsters" are mafiosi/Italian- you are the one who is throwing race around.

There are lots of black people involved in lots of types of music okay? Gangster rap is not exclusively a "black" genre, although it is predominantly so.

So- basically we can't call out the reactionary shit that is expressed in some hip-hop or rap music- because of all the other stuff that happens?
The most ridiculuous fucking kind of argumentation guilty of the tu quoque fallacy as well. It's okay for some rappers to spew out a lot of hate-speech because Joe Pesci portrays gangsters and some people think that's cool.

:thumbdown:

Revolution starts with U

14th January 2011, 11:55

No it isn't.

Excellent analysis there chief :thumbdown:

They don't glorify the mafia, they show it for what it is.

*RSWU bangs his head against the wall in frustration....................

Secondly- there has been this issue in the Italian media recently after a series about a criminal gang (historic) in Rome started to see sales in t-shirts representing the gang and this kind of romanticisation of something that was very negative- most people were of the opinion it was not good.
Most of the urban/american community also looks down upon the rap community. Why do you assume glorifying gangsters is a majority position w/in the urban/american community?

Stop trying to turn this into- "because the Italians do something then no one can criticise something else"- that's stupid reasoning.

Good. Cuz that's not my reasoning at all. I'm saying, the mafia and media about the mafia amounts to virtually the same thing as gangster and media about gangsters.

As for the racial bigotry, sorry- you came out with the racial statement- no one else. If you read through the threads you might also see that some people here, including myself, actually feel that some of the values and lyrics etc of some rap/hip hop music actually engenders racial bigotry. Derp.

.. my statement was pointing out the inherent possible racism in your argument. It seems to me that it could only stem from a "it's different for italians than it is for blacks." There is no other reasonable explanation. The reasoning is just dense.
YOu keep trying to say that mafia media doesn't glorify the mafia for x reasons, but it does. And people wanted to grow up to be gangsters.

I even referenced this Roman gang group you're talking about to show that this culture has persisted since time immemorial. That it is nothing new. And why I don't understand how you can see a difference between this gang, cowboys, the mafia, and urban gangsters... unless of course it's because you're italian and holding on to racial bigotries.

Yeah and when there are thousands of Italian/Italian-American rap songs promoting the "gangster life" and making it seem cool to be a bigotted, violent mysogenist with homophobic values etc etc etc it will/would be criticised the same- by myself, first and foremost.

I would have to say you are fooling yourself here. You have the chance to do that. Yet you continue to defend reactionary mafia culture as "not glorifying but denouncing it." I'm sorry, but that denunnciation they show is weak, and only at the end, after all the addictive glory.

Whereas I, on the other hand, (were you to read my posts) have been saying they are both terrible. They come from idiocy and/or ignorance. But that this has nil impact on their value as social media.
The Narnia series is a celebration of monarchy; that doesn't mean it's not a good series of books.

There are lots of black people involved in lots of types of music okay? Gangster rap is not exclusively a "black" genre, although it is predominantly so.

***** bangs his head against the wall out of frustration

So- basically we can't call out the reactionary shit that is expressed in some hip-hop or rap music- because of all the other stuff that happens?

No, you can! THat has been my argument all along. WHerein did I say we can't? We should! And you don't, when it involves an italian culture!!!

The most ridiculuous fucking kind of argumentation guilty of the tu quoque fallacy as well. It's okay for some rappers to spew out a lot of hate-speech because Joe Pesci portrays gangsters and some people think that's cool.

frustration, wall, head....
:thumbdown:

ComradeMan

14th January 2011, 11:57

To Gacky....

Amerikkkan pig values

No comment.:(

I like to think of it as more of an incredibly clever turn of phrase, but to each their own.

No, just shows you're acting like a prick really.

Oh, so your subtleties are essentially saying that it's just elements of rap/hip-hop that engender gang violence instead of "the entire genre"? Ah, I see the - wait, no, you're still wrong.

Well, that's what Manic was saying and I was saying- see the references to the early days. You're the person who is making everything black and white with a stupid binary analysis. No one ever said all rap or hip hop was reactionary. Secondly, there is a difference between promoting/glorifying and engendering, which you know full well- so nice try for the strawman. ;)

Basically you have no arguments but you've already made up your mind. So continue to listen to a load of reactionary garbage and pretend to be a leftist.

ComradeMan

14th January 2011, 12:11

Excellent analysis there chief :thumbdown:

*RSWU bangs his head against the wall in frustration....................
.
Most of the urban/american community also looks down upon the rap community. Why do you assume glorifying gangsters is a majority position w/in the urban/american community?

But we were talking about a global phenomenon not the fucking urban American community.

So what? Because someone looks down on me it's okay for me to be homophobic, misogynistic, violent, racist and glorify crime?

Secondly- Manic's point was about leftists listening to music that full of reactionary shit. Do you deny the fact that a lot of kids look up to gangster rappers as role models despite the message of their lyrics being questionable?

my statement was pointing out the inherent possible racism in your argument. It seems to me that it could only stem from a "it's different for italians than it is for blacks." There is no other reasonable explanation. The reasoning is just dense.
YOu keep trying to say that mafia media doesn't glorify the mafia for x reasons, but it does. And people wanted to grow up to be gangsters.

There is no inherent racism, you're just saying this and trying to turn this into a race issue, which it isn't because YOU MADE A RACIALLY/ETHNICALLY BIGOTTED STATEMENT.

Who the fuck wants to grow up to be a gangster? The difference is that we are also talking about different media. You can argue all you like but the gangster films do not promote being a gangster whereas certain elements of rap music and the behavious off stage of rap "artists" definitely does sound out a promotion message that cannot be allied to leftist values.

I even referenced this Roman gang group you're talking about to show that this culture has persisted since time immemorial....

Who is this Roman gang by the way?

Secondly- argument to history- just because something has existed doesn't mean that we should endorse/condone it? Capitalism has existed for quite a while too... Derp.

Yet you continue to defend reactionary mafia culture as "not glorifying but denouncing it." I'm sorry, but that denunnciation they show is weak, and only at the end, after all the addictive glory.

Where have I defended reactionary mafia culture? What is reactionary mafia culture by the way? But while we're at it gangster rappers have been known to glorify the mafia too with several references in their songs- so I guess that makes them reactionary.

Snoop Dogg.

"I put down more hits than mafioso made And Lucky Lucianno 'bout to sing soprano And I know, I know the way you feel..."

"Vision 88 kilos of cocaine smack-dead in your face
The street value of that is what you dream to make
Run an illegal business,racketeerin
Smugglin,doin things from handin a gun,is what they fearin
Bodyguards and hitmen like some Al Capone shit
Heavy artillery got the cops on my dick
Different locations,spots where it takes place
If you show them my money,your ass is gettin f-laid
There's four major games that run the city of G's
The violators,the Gambinos and the Corleones and me
The violators and Gambinos they run uptown
Me and my cousin Corleone we run downtown"

All you are doing is coming up with apologism and strawmen that doesn't at the end of the day change the fact:-

A lot of rap and hip hop contains lyrics that express reactionary values.

The fact that you turn this into a race issue says a lot too. By the way, two of the people/groups named in this thread who were called out for homophobia were Eminem and the Beastie Boys.... they are white.

Revolution starts with U

14th January 2011, 12:26

But we were talking about a global phenomenon not the fucking urban American community.

So what? Because someone looks down on me it's okay for me to be homophobic, misogynistic, violent, racist and glorify crime?

head, face, wall, frustration...
No. Are you even listening to what I'm saying? My point is that it is reactionary. And the use of the pronoun "we" in reference to excusing it is nonsense. It would be like saying one excuses monarchy because they enjoyed MacBeth.

Secondly- Manic's point was about leftists listening to music that full of reactionary shit. Do you deny the fact that a lot of kids look up to gangster rappers as role models despite the message of their lyrics being questionable?

Fead, wlace, frustfration
Do you deny the fact that "a lot" of kids look/looked up to gangsters as role models despite the culture and media surrounding it being questionable?

There is no inherent racism, you're just saying this and trying to turn this into a race issue, which it isn't because YOU MADE A RACIALLY/ETHNICALLY BIGOTTED STATEMENT.
frustration... etc
Pointing out one's possible racism is not racist. Maybe it is. That's fine, if I was racist, my bad. But I was no demonizing italians. I was saying you are giving the italian-american more leeway than you do hte urban (i.e. black) american.

Who the fuck wants to grow up to be a gangster? The difference is that we are also talking about different media. You can argue all you like but the gangster films do not promote being a gangster whereas certain elements of rap music and the behavious off stage of rap "artists" definitely does sound out a promotion message that cannot be allied to leftist values.
Neither one of them can be allied w leftist values. Stop treating the mafia culture as anything different than the cowboy culture, or the thuggish culture.

Who is this Roman gang by the way?

Secondly- argument to history- just because something has existed doesn't mean that we should endorse/condone it? Capitalism has existed for quite a while too... Derp.

Wall, frustration :rolleyes:
Do I, or do I not endorse monarchy because I liked and endorse the Chronicles of Narnia?
I love the show Dexter on Showtime... do I now endorse serial murder?!
It's utter nonsense comrade. Come off it.

Where have I defended reactionary mafia culture? What is reactionary mafia culture by the way? But while we're at it gangster rappers have been known to glorify the mafia too with several references in their songs- so I guess that makes them reactionary.

..wa.. fru... head...
YES! Yes it makes them reactionary!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Reactionary mafia culture; give me your shit or I'll kill you, drug cartel involvement, and other general capitalist bullshit.

A lot of rap and hip hop contains lyrics that express reactionary values.

Avalokiteśvara has not enough palms for the amount of face I want to put in them.... :thumbdown:

ComradeMan

14th January 2011, 12:41

head, face, wall, frustration...
No. Are you even listening to what I'm saying? My point is that it is reactionary. And the use of the pronoun "we" in reference to excusing it is nonsense. It would be like saying one excuses monarchy because they enjoyed MacBeth.

Okay so what's the issue? Seems like you're backtracking now....

Do you deny the fact that "a lot" of kids look/looked up to gangsters as role models despite the culture and media surrounding it being questionable?.

I don't think it's anywhere near the same. I don't see people kids going around emulating Don Corleone or Tony Soprano as a fashion statement. I don't see the danger of their accepting those values as cool- because they are entirely different genres.

Pointing out one's possible racism is not racist. Maybe it is. That's fine, if I was racist, my bad. But I was no demonizing italians. I was saying you are giving the italian-american more leeway than you do hte urban (i.e. black) american.

Pointing out alleged racism when YOU are the one turning this into a race issue and YOU are the one who made a racially charged comment is not really very constructive.

Why do you automatically associate Italian-Americans with gangsters and the mafia by the way? :thumbdown: Are all white gangsters de facto Italian? That would be like someone saying all black Americans are de facto gang members and drug dealers....

Neither one of them can be allied w leftist values. Stop treating the mafia culture as anything different than the cowboy culture, or the thuggish culture.

There is no "mafia culture"- shit, you should stop believing the films. They are just organised criminals and nothing more. All that hype about godfathers and oaths and this and that etc is bullshit mostly from the films or old Italian folklore. No one is treating the mafia culture differently... What is being said is that we are dealing with different issues. A handful of films or thousands and thousands of songs. The films do not promote, the songs very often do.

Wall, frustration :rolleyes:
Do I, or do I not endorse monarchy because I liked and endorse the Chronicles of Narnia? I love the show Dexter on Showtime... do I now endorse serial murder?! It's utter nonsense comrade. Come off it.

So you deny that rap music and hip hop culture has any effect whatsoever and does not send out a message to millions of young kids all over the world who emulate their heroes and role models.... unlike a fantasy children's book... unlike Dexter..... Think about the difference! ;)

Apart from all of this superfluous nonsense and the strawmen- Manic's original point still stands...

Why do we ignore or excuse the reactionary stuff in hip hop and rap?

Revolution starts with U

14th January 2011, 13:00

Okay so what's the issue? Seems like you're backtracking now....

You can go back and read all of my posts. I have been absolutely consistent.
"Ya, a lot of rap is reactionary. Beethoven liked Napoleon.. what's all this "we" (are excusing it) nonsense?" I believe was my first comment.

I don't think it's anywhere near the same. I don't see people kids going around emulating Don Corleone or Tony Soprano as a fashion statement. I don't see the danger of their accepting those values as cool- because they are entirely different genres.

Re-read that Snoop Dog lyric you posted, and then think about in context of your statement here. THen ask yourself if this just happened to develop in late 80s black/urban communities.

Pointing out alleged racism when YOU are the one turning this into a race issue and YOU are the one who made a racially charged comment is not really very constructive.

Perhaps it was not. I think it added a lot of unneeded hostility in the argument. But I still find it valid. And I did not say you were racist. I implied that it would not surprise me if some loose italian protectionism was causing your viewing thug culture from mafia culture as not relevant to each other.

Why do you automatically associate Italian-Americans with gangsters and the mafia by the way? :thumbdown: Are all white gangsters de facto Italian? That would be like someone saying all black Americans are de facto gang members and drug dealers....

I don't. But it is the popular stereotype. When people idolize the mafia w their Godfather posters, etc, they are thinking of the italian mafia. They're not like "I'm gona be Don Wyznewski"

There is no "mafia culture"- shit, you should stop believing the films. They are just organised criminals and nothing more.
I agree.
All that hype about godfathers and oaths and this and that etc is bullshit mostly from the films or old Italian folklore.
Doesn't matter. Most ninjas moved in packs of 3's.... what of it? There is a popular culture that is attractive to a small segment of society.

No one is treating the mafia culture differently... What is being said is that we are dealing with different issues. A handful of films or thousands and thousands of songs. The films do not promote, the songs very often do.
The most I can say is, I disagree. I've have said why many times already. You can read them again if you like. But I disagree with this assessment.

So you deny that rap music and hip hop culture has any effect whatsoever and does not send out a message to millions of young kids all over the world who emulate their heroes and role models.... unlike a fantasy children's book... unlike Dexter..... Think about the difference! ;)

I think it has some effect. Personally, I think the process is self-reinforcing. It gets popular. The media replays it and spices it up a bit. And that makes people want to do it more.
But I think ultimately, gangsterism is an economic reaction.

Why do we ignore or excuse the reactionary stuff in hip hop and rap?

And my point still stands. WHat is this "we" nonsense. "We" is a non-sequiter. He clearly doesn't, at least not anymore. You don't. I don't. Some do... who the blank is this "we?"

Revolution starts with U

14th January 2011, 13:02

The question would be better stated; should we support the reactionary views prevalent in much hip-hop?
Of course the answer is no. But his question presupposes that others agree with him. It's a loaded question.

ComradeMan

14th January 2011, 13:05

I think I see the problem here. The issue is not with gangsterism per se, although that is another issue if you like- the issue is with what's being said in terms of the message- which is often pretty reactionary.

If you look through the posts- you'll see I did acknowledge that other genres were also under the microscope and also that not all hip hop and rap was being accused.

Revolution starts with U

14th January 2011, 13:13

I think I see the problem here. The issue is not with gangsterism per se, although that is another issue if you like- the issue is with what's being said in terms of the message- which is often pretty reactionary.

Pretty much. I have HUGE issues w gangsterism. And I abhor reactionism. But I recognize a good song for what it is. After all, as I said, Beethoven loved Napoleon (until he declared himself emporer). But "Rage over a lost penny" is still a nice little tune :lol: And just because I can nod my head to it, in no way means I support the message.

If you look through the posts- you'll see I did acknowledge that other genres were also under the microscope and also that not all hip hop and rap was being accused.

Yes. But not the mafia. I had to ask myself why. You were seeming to claim that it didn't even exist when you said that "people aren't running out to be Scarface." But they do, everyday, in the real mafia. Just like they do, everyday, in the real crypts and bloods.

ComradeMan

14th January 2011, 13:29

Pretty much. I have HUGE issues w gangsterism. And I abhor reactionism. But I recognize a good song for what it is. After all, as I said, Beethoven loved Napoleon (until he declared himself emporer). But "Rage over a lost penny" is still a nice little tune :lol: And just because I can nod my head to it, in no way means I support the message.

Yes. But not the mafia. I had to ask myself why. You were seeming to claim that it didn't even exist when you said that "people aren't running out to be Scarface." But they do, everyday, in the real mafia. Just like they do, everyday, in the real crypts and bloods.

We seem to be agreeing, finally, but still...., perhaps we have differing definitions of mafia too. Tony Montana was not a mafioso.

Beethoven didn't rap about how cool Napoleon was though....

No one is calling for the banning of this genre of music- perhaps just questioning the values in it and perhaps if enough people do this it would send out a message. Wouldn't it be nice if someone was rapping/singing about leftist values to an enormous global audience?

You guys in America have to remember that US music, MTV culture, TV etc is exported all over the world too- if I switch on my TV, at any one time I will find at least 2-3 channels with US stuff on it. The younger generation listen to predominantly US music too- try to bear that in mind when people talk about these issues.

Anyway... cool....
:cool:

PS Cripps.

TheGeekySocialist

14th January 2011, 14:03

we live in a society and culture that says its okay to be homophobic or sexist, we need to tackle the social and cultural problem that is the acceptance of bigotry.

just complaining about one genre in one media which in turn we are generalising ourselves wont change tackle the underlying social and cultural issues.

apawllo

14th January 2011, 16:37

most hip hop pushed through mainstream radio is hyper-capitalist, sexist, homophobic, violent, and generally reactionary.

going "but but but other genres wahhhh" doesnt make it less true.

that's pretty obvious i think, but how is it a knock against the entire genre? just the same, there are plenty of rappers who will never get radio play who are none of the above. i'd think it's a pretty well known fact by this point in the thread that artists are getting played for rapping about that stuff, at least sometimes. likewise, others aren't getting played for not doing so. matter of fact, little brother got banned from BET after being labeled "too intelligent" for this video:

vLReIhRgVS8

Jimmie Higgins

14th January 2011, 16:59

You know what music is reactionary? Mexican folk music - all those ballads about gangsters and broken-hearted bandits. You know what else, American folk music, all those songs about down-on their luck losers and petty crooks. You know what other music is reactionary? Country music with all the songs about murderers and con-men and drifters. You know what else? Rock music, all the songs about abusing women and cheating on them and having sex with teenage girls!

Look, no one hear is arguing that hip-hop is uniformly progressive - the argument being made by most people here is that is it not uniformly reactionary nor is it that different than other forms of pop culture. In the US, racists single-out hip-hop for having "bad messages" not out of the desire for progressive ideas, but because they have racial and class prejudices against the images and people in a lot of hip-hop.

No one is calling for the banning of this genre of music- perhaps just questioning the values in it and perhaps if enough people do this it would send out a message. Wouldn't it be nice if someone was rapping/singing about leftist values to an enormous global audience? You mean like any number of people in the "conscious hip-hop" sub-genre? It's idealist to expect pop-culture (influenced at the purse strings by a handful of large corporate enterprises) to reflect proletarian or even progressive ideas in the absence of movements.

The reason it would be useless for the left to criticize hip hop or country or rock in a blanket sort of moral value judgment is:
A) "Morality" is usually just blaming induviduals for social phenomena
B) The content of pop-culture follows the culture, it doesn't lead it.

In other words, hip-hop was more political at the end of the 90s when youth culture was becoming more political and in the late 80s, influenced by the anti-apartheid movement (often directly - and speaking of ICE CUBE, one of his reactionary stances in a lot of his music is the idea that we should "forget about Africa" and worry about poor people in the US. Obviously, radicals would recognize the link between apartheid there and racism/poverty here and argue for solidarity) and the sort of identity politics of afro-centrism.

1960s music was the same. It was the civil rights movement that created protest music, not the other way around and it was the more radical politics of the late 60s that lead to more radical rock and soul music. In the absense of these movements we get (at the better end) early bubblegum Beatles, and (at the worse end) corporate pre-fabs like Fabian and pop-songs written by middle-aged ad-men (much like the boy-band music and teen-pop of the last decade).

A Revolutionary Tool

15th January 2011, 00:29

I don't know why a lot of you are hating on gangster rap. Some of that stuff is awesome. I remember when The Game came out and it was like an explosion or real good gangster rap came out for example:
BuMBmK5uksg

TM2zeHdfruQ
I remember when Westside Story started playing on the radio, I was just going crazy waiting for the C.D. to come out.

Dr. Dre, Ice Cube, 2pac, etc, all have good songs. I mean Nuthin' but a G thang is/was like the anthem of gangster rap, at least here on the West Coast. Ice Cube's Today was a Good Day is still awesome, stuff like that. They do have some pretty reactionary shit though, Ice Cube especially surprised me when I was looking at his stuff that didn't get on the radio...

Jimmie Higgins

15th January 2011, 05:29

What a load of shit.

There are huge differences between now and the 1930s.

People weren't killing each other because of James Cagney's gang colours.;)

No one is saying that there aren't problems with other genres, but defending the shit that gets pumped out by "drug gangs" is not progressive whatsoever.

"Murder was the case that they dropped"...Even Entertainment Weekly (a cheep pop culture magazine) disagrees with your argument:

http://popwatch.ew.com/2009/07/06/gangster-movies-popular/

Gangster movies took off as a distinct movie genre in the 1930s, but gangster movies were being made even during the silent-film era. (Joseph von Sternberg's 1926 Underworld is just one notable, visually exciting example.) But as organized crime mushroomed during Prohibition, in the '30s the movies were the pop medium where this subject became literally explosive. The first, 1932's Scarface, starring Paul Muni, featured so much machine-gun action, and made it look like so much fun, that filmmaker Howard Hawks was forced to attach the subtitle "The Shame of a Nation" to his movie, lest it seem as though Scarface was glorifying gangsters. Well, sorry, but the movies have always glorified gangsters: There’s something about outlaws in snazzy clothes, brimming with ambition, and toting big guns that has attracted people for almost a century now. Gangster movies have it both ways: they can present a lone hero as a daring guy (and they do tend to be guys), whether it's the Paul Muni or the Al Pacino Scarface, but also as men who belong to a family. A crime family, but a family nonetheless: Thus one of the many allures of Francis Ford Coppola's Godfather films, which revived the genre in the 1970s with an unprecedented popularity, and have been acclaimed as both high art and as populist art that inspired other pop forms. (Without The Godfather and Scarface, there would be no gangsta rap, to take just one example.)

http://www.ehow.com/list_7585923_mens-hats-1930s.html

The fedora was the hat preferred by gangsters. During the 1930s, gangs were prevalent and feared, but they also had a large impact on society (http://www.ehow.com/culture-and-society/) and pop culture (http://www.ehow.com/culture-and-society/). The gangster was well dressed in a wide-striped suit and always sported a felt fedora on his head.

727Goon

15th January 2011, 05:56

Because it's bigger than hip-hop, hip-hop, hip-hop...

synthesis

15th January 2011, 10:24

You're the person who is making everything black and white with a stupid binary analysis. No one ever said all rap or hip hop was reactionary. Secondly, there is a difference between promoting/glorifying and engendering, which you know full well- so nice try for the strawman. ;)

People weren't killing each other because of James Cagney's gang colours.;)

Are straw men made of flesh and blood?

And I do apologize for talking shit - I didn't think it would phase you so much.

Because it's bigger than hip-hop, hip-hop, hip-hop...

:(

synthesis

15th January 2011, 10:46

(Without The Godfather and Scarface, there would be no gangsta rap, to take just one example.)

I gotta say, I completely disagree with this in every way. Without gangsters, there would be no gangster rap. There really isn't any other valid way to understand it.

ComradeMan

15th January 2011, 10:57

Even Entertainment Weekly (a cheep pop culture magazine) disagrees with your argument:.....

A cheep pop culture magazine that serves to promote pop culture--- don't think there's a confirmational bias there do you?

Gangster rap is because of The Godfather.... yeah, sure.

There's also a bit of a difference in terms of the genres too.... the circustances around the films and so on. Were the actors like James Cagney also members of gangs for instance? Did they promote realy gang activity in their lyrics? Did they say outright this is cool... this is what you do...? La Coka Nostra?

Fedora hats were popular since the 1880s, before and after. I wonder if all the Chabad-Lubavitch rabbis wearing fedora hats are emulating gangsters? Or are the gangsters secretly emulating the rabbis?

:lol:

Does any of this change the fact that the values, sentiments and messages of some of the hip hop/rap scene are reactionary?

Jimmie Higgins

15th January 2011, 11:01

I gotta say, I completely disagree with this in every way. Without gangsters, there would be no gangster rap. There really isn't any other valid way to understand it.Well ok, true. But I think the point is how heavily many of the tales and imagery of some gangsta rap is actually part of a larger American tradition of gangster-fascination. It's something that many rapper consciously and repeatedly point out in their lyrics in references to famous bandits of the past or comparing themselves to 1930s gangsters or famous fictional gangsters.

synthesis

15th January 2011, 11:07

Well ok, true. But I think the point is how heavily many of the tales and imagery of some gangsta rap is actually part of a larger American tradition of gangster-fascination. It's something that many rapper consciously and repeatedly point out in their lyrics in references to famous bandits of the past or comparing themselves to 1930s gangsters or famous fictional gangsters.

I think this has more to do with the appeal of gangster rap rather than the genesis of it. It's not incorrect, but it applies much more to the audience than to the author.

Jimmie Higgins

15th January 2011, 11:09

A cheep pop culture magazine that serves to promote pop culture--- don't think there's a confirmational bias there do you?

Gangster rap is because of The Godfather.... yeah, sure.No but they are part of the same tradition. Guys quote the shit out of those movies and think it's totally glamorous just like many people do with gangsta rap. They are stories about more or less underdogs (usually poor and from oppressed groups) rising to power in a society that keeps most of the viewers of these movies powerless. The most compelling thing about "Scarface" is the chip on his shoulder and his desire to shove his worth (the money he's earned) down the throats of all the people who think he is lower than they are because of his place of birth or petty-criminal past. Gee, why would people in our society who feel powerless be attracted to this story? Why does every east coast and southern rapper have Scarface references and T-shirts and shit like that? It's all part of the same thing - if you condemn ALL of hip hop for the reactionary ideas or lyrics expressed in some gangsta rap, then you also have to equally condemn all hollywood movies in the same way.

There's also a bit of a difference in terms of the genres too.... the circustances around the films and so on. Were the actors like James Cagney also members of gangs for instance? Did they promote realy gang activity in their lyrics? Did they say outright this is cool... this is what you do...? La Coka Nostra?Why not go ask Frank Sinatra?

"The most colorful story about Sinatra's mob involvement is that he managed to get out of his contract with Tommy Dorsey in 1943 after Bergen County mobster Willie Moretti went to the bandleader's dressing room and put a gun to his head. "

Fedora hats were popular since the 1880s, before and after. I wonder if all the Chabad-Lubavitch rabbis wearing fedora hats are emulating gangsters? Or are the gangsters secretly emulating the rabbis?You're missing the forrest through the trees. You said no one emulated 1930s gangster styles... this is empirically false as "gangster fasion" was incredibly popular and even "Cannon Literature" like "The Great Gadspy" reference popular conceptions of bootleggers and gangsters being fashionable and romanticized. Are you seriously arguing that if you went to a costume party wearing a fedora hat and suit, other guests would think you were dressing as a rabbi, not a 30s gangster?:rolleyes:

Does any of this change the fact that the values, sentiments and messages of some of the hip hop/rap scene are reactionary?No, there are reactionary ideas expressed in almost all contemporary areas of pop-culture. But that doesn't prove your claim that it is somehow worse or more extreme or different in hip-hop. It isn't.

Listen, what do you concretely propose people do about reactionary ideas in music? Boycott it? Ask the government to ban or censor it? Protest record companies or individual artists? Please explain and tell us how it would forward the cause of fighting oppression and bigotry?

ComradeMan

15th January 2011, 11:27

if you condemn ALL of hip hop for the reactionary ideas or lyrics expressed in some gangsta rap, then you also have to equally condemn all hollywood movies in the same way.

But, but... I don't condemn ALL of hip hop/rap and never have done.

If you read my earlier post, I said that it was shame that something that started out about liberation has ended up in a great way a tool of capitalism promoting negative values.

If you want my opinion on a more general level- well I do think there are a lot of issues these days, video games, films etc- it seems that the message is violence is the only/best way to solve things. So yeah- but then of course we get into issues of censorship etc.

Che a chara

15th January 2011, 11:38

If you want my opinion on a more general level- well I do think there are a lot of issues these days, video games, films etc- it seems that the message is violence is the only/best way to solve things. So yeah- but then of course we get into issues of censorship etc.

I wouldn't at all be too worried about censoring needless and glorified violence be it on the screen or coming out of your speakers. Both do have a detrimental influence on society ..... this is what apparent freedom within capitalism represents, and as I said before, this type of stuff sells. but also saying that, i wouldn't be too slow on censoring 'peaceful' mind-numbing entertainment as well, i.e. reality tv shows, talent shows and the like which just dumb you down and creates cult like status for talentless hacks

ComradeMan

15th January 2011, 11:41

I wouldn't at all be too worried about censoring needless and glorified violence be it on the screen or coming out of your speakers. Both do have a detrimental influence on society ..... this is what apparent freedom within capitalism represents, and as I said before, this type of stuff sells. but also saying that, i wouldn't be too slow on censoring 'peaceful' mind-numbing entertainment as well, i.e. reality tv shows, talent shows and the like.

Reality TV is on my list... and these days talent show is an oxymoron- they're all so nasty!!! Chuck Berris saw it coming..... :lol:

You know a talent show where people enter and perform and there is an (honest) vote and stuff, okay- but all of this humiliating people, laughing at them and trashing etc- it's very negative in my opinion. Why can't people be nice?

Che a chara

15th January 2011, 11:48

Reality TV is on my list... and these days talent show is an oxymoron- they're all so nasty!!! Chuck Berris saw it coming..... :lol:

You know a talent show where people enter and perform and there is an (honest) vote and stuff, okay- but all of this humiliating people, laughing at them and trashing etc- it's very negative in my opinion. Why can't people be nice?

Sad to say, but public humiliation is a show business these days and fuckers take advantage of it. The Hoffmeister is another cult-like-God with limited talent and a piss poor personality, but he and tv producers get off on his cult status and embarrassing behaviour. Yet millions tune in to watch the crap.

A Hoff gangsta rap record would be the best selling album in history :lol:

Widerstand

15th January 2011, 12:30

PhoenixAsh

15th January 2011, 16:57

All expression of art in whatever form is a reflection of society or a reaction to/agianst it. If you do not like the expression than do not blame the expression but blame the cause.

Capitalism is an economic system which creates a society where people are devided against each other because we have to compete for survival and for being able to thrive.

We are al thought from birth that we need to compete, be the best we can so we can obtain a good position in live. We need to be better, be more agressive, more competative and more ruthless in using every edge we can find...than other people. We are continuously rewarded (more money, material gain, respect etc) for stepping on the shoulders of those who are "weaker" or are not as quick to adjust...and we are punished (less money, less material, less respect etc) for not doing so. Hell even within a group people are pitted against each other. Capitalism teaches us that the strong will survive and that the weak are there to be and deserve to be exploited.

Therefore everybody is pitted against everybody. Races against each other, sexes against each other, age groups against each other, subcultures against each other....hell even within groups we are pitted against each other.

We try to cling together in groups we think we can relate to creating a web of alliances and even friendships. We need these to be able to stay alive and survive. But just as much as we need these social networks to stay alive....so do they dictate to us what we need to do to remain in that group. The way we should live, behave, act...think even. And part of that behaviour is to reject other groups...some we tolerate...some we abhor.

This creates hate...and hate is part of everyday live because in everyday live our feelings of hate are enforced because we allways need to be competative. We can not afford to be nice, social and altruistic because it will be detrimental to our position, or standing and our welfare in an unfair society that is unforgiving and relentless in its pursuit of profit and gain.

And this is reflected in art in every form. Art is an expression of society. And that expression can take many forms...it can be escapist, agreable, or opposed to it...but it still is an expression of the way society is operated.

The same goes for rap. Yes! some, if not most, rap songs I know are sexist, homophobic and a glorification of violence and aggression...I see this as a symptom of an unjust society....and as such we can be angry about it and react to it...but curing the symptoms will not cure the disease....it will only make the disease a little more bareable.

Change society and the expressions in art will change...

Now that said...we cannot and must not forget that next to being rational and logical...people are also irrational and emotional beings.

Everybody in here...at some point in their lives were jealous, hurt and angry and has had thought about bad things happening to somebody who probably, when you think about it logically, does not really deserve them. And you can fight these emotions but that means you have to violate yourself...and in fact makes them worse...make them linger and make them turn into long lasting hatred.

Personally I acknowledge their existence and realise they are part of being human...and as such I give room for these feelings to be there, so that I know they are there and do not have to act on them. And that means there are times I love to hear how bad other people are in the music I listen to. Not because I think they are bad or find them inferior...but because sometimes I just need to find an expression for my darkest emotions.

PhoenixAsh

15th January 2011, 17:02

Publius

15th January 2011, 17:54

ComradeMan

15th January 2011, 18:19

^^^^^^ That's pretty bad and there's no excuse really.

Kill the white people; we gonna make them hurt; kill the white people; but buy my record first; ha, ha, ha";
"Kill d'White People"; Apache, Apache Ain't Shit, 1993

"Niggas in the church say: kill whitey all night long. . . . the white man is the devil. . . . the CRIPS and Bloods are soldiers I'm recruiting with no dispute; drive-by shooting on this white genetic mutant. . . . let's go and kill some rednecks. . . . Menace Clan ain't afraid. . . . I got the .380; the homies think I'm crazy because I shot a white baby; I said; I said; I said: kill whitey all night long. . . . a nigga dumping on your white ass; fuck this rap shit, nigga, I'm gonna blast. . . . I beat a white boy to the motherfucking ground";
"Kill Whitey"; Menace Clan, Da Hood, 1995

scarletghoul

15th January 2011, 18:37

uFBb2x4ZOs4

synthesis

16th January 2011, 01:15

Obviously this is due to the historical oppression of blacks in this country at the hands of Koreans.

Ethnic/"racial" conflicts are simply class conflicts in disguise. If you actually read the lyrics, it is presenting Koreans as petty-bourgeois and blacks as proletarian.

synthesis

16th January 2011, 01:19

Robert

16th January 2011, 01:57

I think white people think about these kinds of lyrics more than the actual lyricists do.

As a white guy myself, I just hope the dude's fans aren't "thinking about these kinds of lyrics." :blink:

Jimmie Higgins

16th January 2011, 05:12

As a white guy myself, I just hope the dude's fans aren't "thinking about these kinds of lyrics." :blink:Why, the dude's fan's are probaly 80% white.

Ethnic/"racial" conflicts are simply class conflicts in disguise. If you actually read the lyrics, it is presenting Koreans as petty-bourgeois and blacks as proletarian. It's true, he is expressing some of the resentment between the working-poor and shop-owners that exists in many communities and was a big theme of late 80s/early 90s culture "Do the right thing" was about this for example. But blaming Koreans or Jews or Italians or Mexicans or whatever is a reactionary and divisive expression of this class conflict just as nativist resentment against immigrant workers is a reactionary expression coming out of the competition workers are forced into because of capitalism. The song is coming out of resentment of always being suspected of being a criminal, I think a stronger expression of this sentiment could have not blamed some ethnic group, but connected the racial-profiling by the corner store with the racial profiling and fear-mongering in the news and by police and politicians.

As a white guy myself, I just hope the dude's fans aren't "thinking about these kinds of lyrics."Like most of hip hop, probably 80% of their fans are white.

I'm going to come right out and say it: Because people have an orientalizing, racist view of non-Whites/non-Europeans. When Varg or any other white musician spew their reactionary crap it's because they are vile, rotten reactionaries. But when black people do it it's because they "don't know better."

I had to look up who "Varg" was... really, people criticize him just for the content of his lyrics?

In 1994 Vikernes was convicted of the murder of his Mayhem bandmate Øystein Aarseth (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Euronymous), known by his stage name Euronymous. Vikernes was further convicted of four counts of arson involving the burnings of historic churches, and was sentenced to 21 years in prison. Having served almost 16 years of a 21-year prison sentence, Vikernes was released on parole (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parole) in early 2009.Hmm... so when people don't criticize Black Sabbath as much as they do "Varg" is it because they have a paternalistic/condescending attitude to British singers? Or is it because all their fans and most people in society (aside from some right-wing evangelicals and maybe some confused fans) realize that what they are about is a stage act.

Most rock and rap stars are just entertainers and when they get busted it's usually for having a concealed weapon, drugs, or some other rock and roll shit - if there was a US black rapper who burned down even a single church, he would have been lynched by the KKK and the cops before he even had a chance to go to trial. Black artists are not given a free pass in the US, what a ridiculous fucking argument to make. In fact they tend to face increased scrutiny. ICE Cube was constantly attacked in the mainstream media - particularly by Liberals and other black media figures.

I don't know, maybe it's an age difference but I grew up when NO suburban white people listened to hip-hop and rappers were constantly under attack by the right wing and liberals alike. The FBI tried to take down NWA and the Police Union protested ICE-T and demanded the the major labels drop him (and they did). Oprah had a show where she was criticizing ICE CUBE and he came on to answer the charges against him.

Again, there are reactionary ideas expressed in hip hop just like all popular entertainment, but singling out hip hop for sexism when Brittany Spears sells statutory rape and Hair Metal celebrates it is hypocritical at best. To single out hip-hop for racially divisive ideas in a society where a Tea-Party supported school board just said that integrated schools were "a thing of the past" and we need a "new paradigm" is hypocritical. To single-out hip hop for violent messages in a country that has a war-song as a national anthem and reserves the right to bomb any region unilaterally is hypocritical. Hip hop or hair metal are not the source or cause of social problems to condemn them and try and influence their content directly is useless and generally only plays into the hands of the ruling class who always love a good moral crusade and a chance to excuse the problems of the system and blame it on cultural products of low moral standing.

synthesis

16th January 2011, 05:34

It's true, he is expressing some of the resentment between the working-poor and shop-owners that exists in many communities and was a big theme of late 80s/early 90s culture "Do the right thing" was about this for example. But blaming Koreans or Jews or Italians or Mexicans or whatever is a reactionary and divisive expression of this class conflict just as nativist resentment against immigrant workers is a reactionary expression coming out of the competition workers are forced into because of capitalism. The song is coming out of resentment of always being suspected of being a criminal, I think a stronger expression of this sentiment could have not blamed some ethnic group, but connected the racial-profiling by the corner store with the racial profiling and fear-mongering in the news and by police and politicians.

Of course it is reactionary, but not deliberately so. It is reactionary because it denies the roots of conflict in class struggle and presents them as part of some other paradigm, but not deliberately so. That, I think, is the primary difference between, for example, Ice Cube and, say, "Varg" or whatever.

RGacky3

16th January 2011, 10:28

Can't music just be music? Does it have to be reactionary or revolutionary? Many rappers call themselves a type of jornoulist of their neighborhoods, i.e. what goes on, thats it.

PhoenixAsh

16th January 2011, 10:45

Can't music just be music? Does it have to be reactionary or revolutionary? Many rappers call themselves a type of jornoulist of their neighborhoods, i.e. what goes on, thats it.

I agree with you here...but i also agree that music can be reactionary or revolutionary or neutral.

That said...today I heard my nephew of 6 say that he girlfriend (as in girl & friend) was a beatch because he had heard that in some songs that were played on the radio.

Now most likely he doens't know what it means and doesn't really mean what he said...but it did get me thinking about the influence music can have on impressionable minds.

When we, the adults, talked about it I learned from parents of older kids that their daughters are buying lipstick and want to wear seductive clothing because they mimic female artists and stars they have seen on tv...and that their sons are talking about getting pussy and if a girl doesn't put out she is probably a lesbian. And one mother told me her daughter came home from a party early because it turned out to be a rainbow party. A concept they had somehow heard about on TV and from songs.

(apparently a rainbow party is where girls all wear different colour lipstick and boys need to "collect" the different colours...you do not want to know how....:blink:)

Now...I do not have kids, yet, and therefore have very little contact with agegroups from 11-16....so I was a bit shocked to hear all this. Apparently music tends to have a massive effect on kids....creating a role pattern that is unhealthy.

Now I think it is fine for sensible adults to listen to that kind of music but I do not think it is fine for kids having their heads screwed up with nonsense notions that girls should be sluts and boys should be macho....just because they think live is like they sing in the songs.

And I have not worked out yet how to fit this in in my ideals...but as of this morning I have some change of heart about the whole concept of freedom of expression...in less than 24 hrs...that is a novelty for me.

ComradeMan

16th January 2011, 11:27

I think white people think about these kinds of lyrics more than the actual lyricists do.

Most white people don't listen to hardcore Nazi punk/rock groups... does that mean it's okay?

RGacky3

16th January 2011, 11:33

That said...today I heard my nephew of 6 say that he girlfriend (as in girl & friend) was a beatch because he had heard that in some songs that were played on the radio.

Well thats not the rappers fault, its the parents fault, I'm not shitting on anyone personally because I don't know the situation, but I would'nt let a 6 year old listen to gangster rap, nor would I let him watch violent films, or anything else that could effect him negatively given he is'nt old enough th understand the context.

And I have not worked out yet how to fit this in in my ideals...but as of this morning I have some change of heart about the whole concept of freedom of expression...in less than 24 hrs...that is a novelty for me.

THis is a parenting problem.

Mark Twain (father of American Comedy and historic American leftist) said "Censorship is telling a man he can't eat stake because a baby can't chew it."

By all means I think children should be protected, in schools and at home, but blaiming the artist for that is rediculous.

ComradeMan

16th January 2011, 11:39

Well thats not the rappers fault, its the parents fault, I'm not shitting on anyone personally because I don't know the situation, but I would'nt let a 6 year old listen to gangster rap, nor would I let him watch violent films, or anything else that could effect him negatively given he is'nt old enough th understand the context.

THis is a parenting problem.

Mark Twain (father of American Comedy and historic American leftist) said "Censorship is telling a man he can't eat stake because a baby can't chew it."

By all means I think children should be protected, in schools and at home, but blaiming the artist for that is rediculous.

Gacky, I know what you mean but at the same time people also have to take some responsibility for what they produce- especially today when tv is 24/7, internet and cellphone technology etc allow the diffusion of material so quickly and without such easy control.

The other fact is that the artists that produce some of this filth then go on to be endorsed and made into stars- what message does that send out?

There is also another difference- whereas in many films it's fiction or at least the actors are portraying other people with rap/hip hop singers it's not so clearly defined. They walk the walk and talk to the talk.

PhoenixAsh

16th January 2011, 12:36

Well thats not the rappers fault, its the parents fault, I'm not shitting on anyone personally because I don't know the situation, but I would'nt let a 6 year old listen to gangster rap, nor would I let him watch violent films, or anything else that could effect him negatively given he is'nt old enough th understand the context.

THis is a parenting problem.

Mark Twain (father of American Comedy and historic American leftist) said "Censorship is telling a man he can't eat stake because a baby can't chew it."

By all means I think children should be protected, in schools and at home, but blaiming the artist for that is rediculous.

Agreed...however rap is being played on the radio and you can not always be alert 24/7 as to what your kids hear and see. Now in this czse the partents are responsible and had a nice sit down explaining why the word was bad....unfortunately not every parent is like that.

I do not blame the artist per se...but I do think some of the blame is placeable by broadcasters who broadcast these type of songs when it is likely that young kids will hear them.

I find this a very difficult subject to form a consistent opinion about. On one side I believe in absolute freedom of expression, on the other I feel that expression can negatively impact kids and the way they behave...both towards society and inter-gender relations, and on the other hand my complete reluctance to use restrictions to tell people how to feel and act.

:glare:

Bud Struggle

16th January 2011, 13:10

Obviously this is due to the historical oppression of blacks in this country at the hands of Koreans.

Just to explain, actually yes. It's a context thing.

In NYC the Koreans (for the most part) own the bodegas or small markets on every street corner. It's about the only place where inner city Blacks could buy food, etc. The Koreans (and these are all generalities here) sometimes don't like Blacks comming into their stores because they feel they Blacks steal, cause trouble, etc. So either they kick the Blacks out or overcharge them for whatever they sell which gets the Balcks mad and they do steal and cause trouble. And it goes on and on.

So there is a little bit of a war going on between the Blacks and the Koreans in NYC. Read the lyrics in light of what I mentioned and you'll see the story.

OK, I'm going back on vacation! :)

RGacky3

16th January 2011, 15:18

The other fact is that the artists that produce some of this filth then go on to be endorsed and made into stars- what message does that send out?

The message is the truth, sex sells. Its a terrible message, it plays to the lowest common denominator, look man this is the world, its up to the parents to protect it from their children untill they're ready, not up to society (or the government) to try and shield itself from reality.

If you don't like tracks about pimps don't get mad ad the artist, get mad at the pimps.

There is also another difference- whereas in many films it's fiction or at least the actors are portraying other people with rap/hip hop singers it's not so clearly defined. They walk the walk and talk to the talk.

Most of them don't. Again, it does'nt matter, its a censorship issue.

Agreed...however rap is being played on the radio and you can not always be alert 24/7 as to what your kids hear and see. Now in this czse the partents are responsible and had a nice sit down explaining why the word was bad....unfortunately not every parent is like that.

Of coarse, but you've gotta do your best, parenting is hard.

I do not blame the artist per se...but I do think some of the blame is placeable by broadcasters who broadcast these type of songs when it is likely that young kids will hear them.

Its money, its capitalism.

I find this a very difficult subject to form a consistent opinion about. On one side I believe in absolute freedom of expression, on the other I feel that expression can negatively impact kids and the way they behave...both towards society and inter-gender relations, and on the other hand my complete reluctance to use restrictions to tell people how to feel and act.

Again, this is a parenting issue, as far as expression, its reflective of the society, and a lot of the way society is run is dirty, you can't hide it, censorship is'nt gonna change anything.

ComradeMan

16th January 2011, 16:26

You seem to be missing the point- the OP was about a leftist response to the issue. Just saying that shit happens and so you accept it is not really a leftist response is it?

StockholmSyndrome

16th January 2011, 17:03

Everybody should watch this documentary:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_8YpcN7oKIM

We watched it in my arts and activism class when I was in college.

RGacky3

16th January 2011, 17:03

I honestly think there is'nt a leftist response to it, theres a personal response, do you like it or not? This is'nt really about socialism or not, its music.

Jimmie Higgins

16th January 2011, 17:07

You seem to be missing the point- the OP was about a leftist response to the issue. Just saying that shit happens and so you accept it is not really a leftist response is it?And so, concretely what do you suggest?

brigadista

16th January 2011, 18:45

Everybody should watch this documentary:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_8YpcN7oKIM

We watched it in my arts and activism class when I was in college.

thanks for posting this link

Im going to post bel hooks again-
which is older but also connects with your link..

its all about capitalism but for me its all about the underground right now

Xtoanes_L_g

ComradeMan

16th January 2011, 19:16

And so, concretely what do you suggest?

That the left calls out these people and encourages the public not to buy their material- send out the message that it isn't cool to be a bigot.

#FF0000

16th January 2011, 19:23

To be honest if someone told me not to buy hip hop because of racism while I live in the United States of America, I would be really really wary of them and their ulterior motives.

ComradeMan

16th January 2011, 19:26

To be honest if someone told me not to buy hip hop because of racism while I live in the United States of America, I would be really really wary of them and their ulterior motives.

But that's not what anyone was saying- stop generalising. No one is talking about all hip hop or rap for the millionth time.

On the other hand, if someone told you that a certain "artist" had hate filled reactionay lyrics would you still buy it?

What about NAZI punk? Is that okay because you live in America? I don't see the logic to the US reference.

#FF0000

16th January 2011, 19:29

Palingenisis

16th January 2011, 21:03

I'm going to come right out and say it: Because people have an orientalizing, racist view of non-Whites/non-Europeans. When Varg or any other white musician spew their reactionary crap it's because they are vile, rotten reactionaries. But when black people do it it's because they "don't know better."

In fairness I think it could be down to in a lot of cases of liking it on a musical level and than trying to justify or downplay its reactionary nature...I like two bands (Death in June and Genocide Organ) who are basically fash. I tried all sorts of justifications that they werent that because I liked the music. :blushing:

synthesis

16th January 2011, 22:07

Can't music just be music? Does it have to be reactionary or revolutionary? Many rappers call themselves a type of jornoulist of their neighborhoods, i.e. what goes on, thats it.

They can be "journalistic" about reactionary ideas which are widespread in their environment.

apawllo

16th January 2011, 23:17

I think Nazi punk is worse though. But maybe my view is skewed because I lived near a town where two white high school kids beat a Mexican immigrant to death in broad daylight in the middle of the street and got away with it scot-free with help from the cops.

Then again, "Black Korea" is a pretty awful thing.

Nazis base their entire lives around hatred for oppressed people. I can't think of a rapper in the history of hip-hop with a remotely comparable mindset in that way. Whether it's racist or not, the message of Black Korea is not that Koreans are inherently bad people; it's about not laying down and accepting oppression. The same is true with a number of Ice Cube's other songs that may be interpreted as racist.

RGacky3

16th January 2011, 23:28

They can be "journalistic" about reactionary ideas which are widespread in their environment.

.... Yes, journalists don't just report on good stuff.

BTW, Comparing hip hop to nazi punk is rediculous, you have to look at the historical context. There is VERY little racism in hip hop, the whole point of nazi punk is racism.

Manic Impressive

17th January 2011, 00:06

I think Nazi punk is worse though. But maybe my view is skewed because I lived near a town where two white high school kids beat a Mexican immigrant to death in broad daylight in the middle of the street and got away with it scot-free with help from the cops.

What's worse Nazi punks saying that people are sub human based on their race and advocating that they should be killed because of this or rappers saying that homosexuals are sub human and advocating that they be killed because of it?

Personally I think they are equally bad and I don't think we should be saying that one form of oppression is worse than another.

.... Yes, journalists don't just report on good stuff.

BTW, Comparing hip hop to nazi punk is rediculous, you have to look at the historical context. There is VERY little racism in hip hop, the whole point of nazi punk is racism.
Yes but there are two ways of doing this for example

(http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oUSIMwsrxuU)http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oUSIMwsrxuU (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lbiot-mH0EQ)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lbiot-mH0EQ (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lbiot-mH0EQ)

Manic Impressive

17th January 2011, 00:12

Also saying that punk or hip hop are fundamentally reactionary and comparing them this way would obviously be ridiculous but comparing the equally reactionary elements in both is totally viable.

Jimmie Higgins

17th January 2011, 08:31

What's worse Nazi punks saying that people are sub human based on their race and advocating that they should be killed because of this or rappers saying that homosexuals are sub human and advocating that they be killed because of it?

Personally I think they are equally bad and I don't think we should be saying that one form of oppression is worse than another.But it is, what is the point of NAZI-Punk music: to promote a specific ideology and to recruit people to hate groups. If they were in it for selling CDs, then they would change their very unpopular message. In the hip-hop industry, what is the purpose of the music: to sell CDs and entertain people.

As I said before because of this difference, hip-hop is influenced by the wider culture, therefore IMO the better way to see more music that reflects a less homophobic and sexist society is to build social movements that inevitably change the general political consciousness as they struggle. Also because the point of hip hop and video games and Hollywood movies is to make money (and to do so they must entertain on some level) it is possible for movements to put pressure on specific acts or musicians and challenge things this way (although I'm not a fan unless it is connected to some kind of specific goal like protesting artists who perform at Sun City).

Trying to fight the manifestations of reactionary or ruling class ideas reflected in culture is like trying to kill the Hydra by chopping off one of its heads. Without first creating social movements, the other danger in attacking racism or sexism in culture through particular acts (and worse, genres) is that it leads no other effective means of influencing cultural production than to get into bed with the institutions of the ruling class. Without a broad movement, trying to get rid of offensive ideas in hip-hop would mean getting into bed with the likes of Tipper Gore and Christian Evangelical conservatives that want to get rid of "offensive" things like images or references to homosexuality or premarital sex.

It should not be the socialists job to make demands on people to think a certain way on moral grounds. Radicals need to convince people to willingly take up solidarity this is what happened through the civil rights and black power movements and that is far more effective at changing cultural attitudes than anything else.