Help with vegetarianism [Archive]

Fawkes

10th January 2011, 18:33

I was thinking if I should become vegetarian and I decided to ask some vegetarian users some questions:

-Is it hard to not eat meat?
-Besides rice,soy and tofu what do you eat?
-Is it expensive?

I'm an ex-vegan, so I guess that makes me qualified.

-Is it hard: It takes dedication, particularly in the beginning, whether or not that qualifies as being hard is up to you I guess.

What do you eat: This sounds a little too simple, but anything without meat in it. You don't have to restrict yourself to tofurkey and facon. Most dishes can be altered to not include meat and still retain a pretty high degree of their original flavor, or at least an interesting alternative one.

Expensive: Depends on who you ask. Soy versions of meat products are expensive, and eating out can be expensive if you plan on going to a vegetarian/vegan restaurant as they have a tendency to be pretentious darshes. But if done right, it shouldn't be any more expensive really than an omnivorous diet, particularly if you cook most of your own food. You may even find it's cheaper actually.

Why do you want to become a vegetarian?

And as a final note, don't become one, meat's kickass.

Triple A

10th January 2011, 20:19

I'm an ex-vegan, so I guess that makes me qualified.

-Is it hard: It takes dedication, particularly in the beginning, whether or not that qualifies as being hard is up to you I guess.

What do you eat: This sounds a little too simple, but anything without meat in it. You don't have to restrict yourself to tofurkey and facon. Most dishes can be altered to not include meat and still retain a pretty high degree of their original flavor, or at least an interesting alternative one.

Expensive: Depends on who you ask. Soy versions of meat products are expensive, and eating out can be expensive if you plan on going to a vegetarian/vegan restaurant as they have a tendency to be pretentious darshes. But if done right, it shouldn't be any more expensive really than an omnivorous diet, particularly if you cook most of your own food. You may even find it's cheaper actually.

Why do you want to become a vegetarian?

And as a final note, don't become one, meat's kickass.

I've been feeling very pro-animal last times so I am considering becoming vegetarian, but meat is a central piece of my countrie's culture so I think it will be difficult to change my lifestyle.

Quail

10th January 2011, 20:28

I was thinking if I should become vegetarian and I decided to ask some vegetarian users some questions:

-Is it hard to not eat meat?
-Besides rice,soy and tofu what do you eat?
-Is it expensive?

1. Personally, I don't find it difficult not to eat meat because in the UK it's easy to find alternatives, and I didn't used to eat much meat anyway, so I don't miss it.
2. I eat mostly beans and pulses (which are actually quite versatile if you're creative) and things like bean burgers or fake meats if I'm feeling too lazy to cook anything proper. Mushrooms are a source of protein too, as are eggs and dairy products (although I don't eat a lot of dairy myself because it doesn't agree with me and I don't really like the industry). Quinoa is a good source of protein, and can be eaten in curries, salads or mixed in with rice. You can cook vegetarian versions of pretty much anything - pasta dishes, curry, chilli, East Asian food, etc.
3. In the UK (I'm not sure about anywhere else) it's much, much cheaper to eat a vegetable-based diet, unless all you buy are fake meats, which would actually be very boring and unhealthy.

I've been feeling very pro-animal last times so I am considering becoming vegetarian, but meat is a central piece of my countrie's culture so I think it will be difficult to change my lifestyle.
If it would be difficult to stop eating meat completely, perhaps you could just try to cut down? It would probably be easier to cut down on meat gradually anyway if you currently eat a lot of it.

hatzel

10th January 2011, 20:30

It depends greatly on where you live, one should mention. Here in London, for instance, we have such a wide range of vegetarian and vegan products that it requires almost no additional effort, so that's lucky. I'm sure that in other places it's not as easy as it is here.

The question of price is one that always gets me. For some reason people think that, because they might eat meat every day, perhaps even more than once a day, they then have to eat some meat substitute every day, perhaps even more than once a day. I'd argue whether or not this is strictly necessary. Pulses, lentils, and, for (lacto-)ovo vegetarians, eggs, can provide your needed protein (hell, even potatoes can!), and are hardly renowned for being devilishly expensive.

The Garbage Disposal Unit

10th January 2011, 20:35

Not eating meat is remarkably easy - if you keep at it, you'll soon discover that most food isn't meat. Spinach. Mushrooms. Nut butters. Hempseed. Carrots. Potatoes. Bread. Oatmeal. Apples. Oranges. Rutabagas. Explore Indian, Thai, and Ethiopian cuisine!

Eating a healthy and inexpensive vegetarian diet is pretty easy, and not that different from eating healthy-and-cheaply period: Don't eat processed crap. Buy in bulk, and as a collective. Start a Food Not Bombs* group and collect the excess from farmers' markets and sympathetic grocery stores - it's a great way of having a few free meals a week, and of building community.

On the theme of FNB, what you do vis-food politics is probably more important than what you don't do. Keep chickens in yr backyard, and plant a garden - hook up yr neighbours. Etc.

*Food Not Bombs in the traditional sense is total crap - strict consensus process, dietary restrictions for collective members, etc. is . . . so 90s in the worst way possible. Think "Solidarity not charity!" and be inventive within yr local context.

bricolage

10th January 2011, 20:38

dietary restrictions for collective members,
so what do you have to be vegan to be in it?

Crux

10th January 2011, 20:51

I was thinking if I should become vegetarian and I decided to ask some vegetarian users some questions:

-Is it hard to not eat meat?
-Besides rice,soy and tofu what do you eat?
-Is it expensive?
I found it quite easy.
Lintels, beans, mushrooms and so on. As others have said, there are quite many thing's that are not meat. I eat a lot of pasta myself.

It's usually cheaper. You don't necessarily need to be specialized vegetarian thing's like quorn and tofu all the time, there are plenty of options.

10th January 2011, 21:04

I was thinking if I should become vegetarian and I decided to ask some vegetarian users some questions:

-Is it hard to not eat meat?

No its very very very easy and requires no thought at all. Of course when you initially cut out meat from your diet, you will probably miss the positive reward-center-of-the-brain feelings that you get from eating things you like...food like drugs, sex, and music produces serotonin surges - it is literally chemically addictive.

The good thing is that after 4-8 weeks, provided you are entirely strict and don't reexpose yourself, your taste preferences will change, you'll lose the association between meat and pleasure and you'll come to only associate meat with the nastiness of hunks of bleeding flesh ripped off of thinking, feeling, defenseless creatures.

-Besides rice,soy and tofu what do you eat?Wheat, bread, pasta, potatos, beans of every variety including chickpeas and lentils, vegetarian sushi (including egg free veg tempura sushi) - vegan baked goods, noodles, quinoa, hummus, falafel, pizza (both cheese free with veggies and with vegan cheese), eggplant/aubergine, zucchini/courgettes, salads, carrots, broccoli, stir fried veggies, steamed veggies, french fries, potato chips, potato wedges, wide assortment of candies and commercially made cookies (yes many contain no animal products!), parsnips, japanese veggie gyoza dumplings, chinese veggie shu mai dumplings, seitan (a type of wheat protein) made in many many different ways, TVP (a type of processed veg meat), apples, bananas, pears, nuts of every variety, dark chocolate, most alcoholic beverages, all sodas/soft-drinks, veggie burgers, bean burgers, excellent vegan meat analogues like Gardien chick'n, vegan "icecream" of every variety(made with soy milk or coconut milk or rice milk), scrambled "eggs" made of tofu and tumeric and spices and vegan egg-replacer...

Basically I eat vegan versions of everything I could imagine wanting to eat.

-Is it expensive?No its ridiculously cheap, eating meat is whats expensive. Compare buying meat at a grocer to buying frozen veggies and canned beans at a grocer and see what will get you more calories, protein, and micronutrients per dollar/pound/euro - there is absolutely no contest - vegetarian meals are nearly always cheaper unless you insist on going for the top of the line vegetarian products and specialty mock-meats and compare that to the cheapest dirtiest meat products you can find (though you wouldn't likely be able to manage this even at McDonalds, you'd have to go for Spam, and yet, vegetarian pot noodles and cans of beans are still cheaper than Spam!)

When people imagine that vegetarianism is expensive, they might be right on a couple of metrics - soy milk is typically more expensive than cow milk, and vegan cheese is typically more expensive than highly processed cheap American or Cheddar cheese (but far cheaper than gourmet cheese) and vegan icecream is typically more expensive than non-gourmet low quality cow icecream...but these are not staples you need in your diet, they're treats based on taste in any diet - it is cheaper to get your actual dietary needs met without meat.

Eating out with friends is way cheaper as a vegetarian or vegan too. If i go to a sushi place, my meat eating friends will end up spending at least 3-4 times as much as I do because vegetarian sushi is priced far cheaper than raw fish or cooked beef. There is no reason to restrict yourself to vegetarian only restaurants because if you go for Japanese, Thai, Vietnamese, Chinese, Indian, Pakistani, Korean, Lebanese, Turkish, pan-arabic, Greek, Mexican, British or Italian, you will easily find a variety of vegetarian dishes - and in those rare restaurants with nothing vegetarian (say, some French, Seafood, etc) you can easily request modifications - its not that hard to leave something out of a salad or something out of a pasta.

Fawkes

10th January 2011, 21:45

I've been feeling very pro-animal last times so I am considering becoming vegetarian, but meat is a central piece of my countrie's culture so I think it will be difficult to change my lifestyle.
It's not a religion or a black and white thing, just cut out animal products as much as you think is reasonable/possible/comfortable, if that indeed is what you want to do. Nobody whose opinion actually matters is going to reprimand you if you have a chicken leg every once in a while, just do the best you can (some hardcore veggies may cry heathenism, but fuck em).

10th January 2011, 22:53

It's not a religion or a black and white thing, just cut out animal products as much as you think is reasonable/possible/comfortable, if that indeed is what you want to do. Nobody whose opinion actually matters is going to reprimand you if you have a chicken leg every once in a while, just do the best you can (some hardcore veggies may cry heathenism, but fuck em).

You wouldn't kick a puppy every once in a while - you wouldn't pay someone to kick a puppy for your amusement every once in a while - and paying someone to torture and kill a chicken for your amusement (which is what eating meat amounts to) is far worse.

So no, I disagree. I also don't think your opinion as an "ex-vegan" who now loves meat is remotely credible: obviously you did it very poorly either in the way you actually planned your diet or in your ethical reasoning for going "vegan."

The "no one whose opinion actually matters" line is just 1. an argument from authority (of those whose opinion's matters, like, arrogantly, yours?) and not an argument from reason or a consistent ethical position 2. incredibly elitist and condescending.

I am a vegan, but I am not an animal rights activist. Most of my friends eat meat. I don't reprimand them for it, and I wouldn't reprimand you for it. But this isn't for a moment because I think its a morally acceptable thing to do. It is only because I know that meat eaters typically turn off their most basic empathetic instincts to do what gives them momentary pleasure and being confronted with their moral inconsistencies and failures is a profoundly upsetting experience when it impacts on something as intimate and personal and frequent as what they eat. So I don't tell them to stop - but I think its absolutely wrong and would tell them if asked - and so would any other ethical vegan or strict vegetarian. (no going vegetarian or vegan for health or social reasons does not count in this respect)

The bottom line is this: no one can stop you from eating meat, whether rarely or constantly, and given that meat eaters are the majority most places (save Jain communities and some progressive political communities) this is going to be a socially sanctioned form of cruelty. In fact its so socially sanctioned that vegetarians/vegans wont typically have the guts to say that its wrong, because then they ironically end up looking like the asshole. But that doesn't mean we ever condone it or ever think its okay or justified or not a big deal. Its a big deal to the animals you eat - its their life you're taking, their bodies you're consuming. This isn't something you owe to vegetarians/vegans, its something you owe to innocent creatures with minds and mental states and suffering and deprivation of their own.

Its your choice but not all choices are equally fair, decent, just, consistent or ethical.

Veg_Athei_Socialist

10th January 2011, 23:33

It is not hard to give up meat.

Here's what you can eat:

Beans and Rice
Tempeh
Tofu
Seitan
Falafel
Bread and hummus
Wheat pasta with mushrooms
Quinoa
Peanut Butter
Seeds, nuts, etc.

No its not expensive.

ellipsis

11th January 2011, 01:37

*Food Not Bombs in the traditional sense is total crap - strict consensus process, dietary restrictions for collective members, etc. is . . . so 90s in the worst way possible. Think "Solidarity not charity!" and be inventive within yr local context.

What? I have never heard of these requirements. FNB is not a collective and doesn't require chapter member to be veggie, only that they cook veggie for their servings, IF they want to use the banner, and there is nothing making them do so.

Chapters use consensus, but i have never seen "strict" consensus, we keep things kinda loose in san fran.

Fawkes

11th January 2011, 01:42

You wouldn't kick a puppy every once in a while - you wouldn't pay someone to kick a puppy for your amusement every once in a while - and paying someone to torture and kill a chicken for your amusement (which is what eating meat amounts to) is far worse.

Yes, because kicking a puppy every once in a while and eating a piece of chicken every once in a while is the same thing :rolleyes: The point is that if you want to diminish the amount of harm you may be inflicting on other animals, than cut out meat wherever you can. No matter what your dietary choices are, you're inevitably going to harm other animals through the very act of living, so just do your best to lessen your impact if that is indeed what you care about. If you eat a steak once a year you are having less of an impact on cows than if you have one 2-3 times a week, but even if you eat none, that car that you're driving is still running on gasoline from some oil fields up in Alaska that knocked out a couple caribou. You can never have zero footprint in regards to other animals, but you can try your best, and whether that means eating considerably less meat or just eating no meat at all, you are doing something.

So no, I disagree. I also don't think your opinion as an "ex-vegan" who now loves meat is remotely credible: obviously you did it very poorly either in the way you actually planned your diet or in your ethical reasoning for going "vegan."
My opinion as an ex-vegan in regards to cost and ease of not eating meat actually is credible considering I did it for years. I stopped because my morals on the issue changed, not because I ran out of good food to eat or money to buy soy burgers. Considering the OP asked nothing regarding the morals and ethics of vegetarianism, only the practicality of it, I don't see why my opinions are invalid at all. And if you look at my initial response, I answered everything pretty objectively from my own experiences.

The "no one whose opinion actually matters" line is just 1. an argument from authority (of those whose opinion's matters, like, arrogantly, yours?) and not an argument from reason or a consistent ethical position 2. incredibly elitist and condescending.
The "those whose opinion matters" line was in reference to these people:

some hardcore veggies may cry heathenism
In other words, people who see this as some religion or something where there are definite rules you have to follow.

I am a vegan, but I am not an animal rights activist. Most of my friends eat meat. I don't reprimand them for it, and I wouldn't reprimand you for it. But this isn't for a moment because I think its a morally acceptable thing to do. It is only because I know that meat eaters typically turn off their most basic empathetic instincts to do what gives them momentary pleasure and being confronted with their moral inconsistencies and failures is a profoundly upsetting experience when it impacts on something as intimate and personal and frequent as what they eat. So I don't tell them to stop - but I think its absolutely wrong and would tell them if asked - and so would any other ethical vegan or strict vegetarian. (no going vegetarian or vegan for health or social reasons does not count in this respect)

The bottom line is this: no one can stop you from eating meat, whether rarely or constantly, and given that meat eaters are the majority most places (save Jain communities and some progressive political communities) this is going to be a socially sanctioned form of cruelty. In fact its so socially sanctioned that vegetarians/vegans wont typically have the guts to say that its wrong, because then they ironically end up looking like the asshole. But that doesn't mean we ever condone it or ever think its okay or justified or not a big deal. Its a big deal to the animals you eat - its their life you're taking, their bodies you're consuming. This isn't something you owe to vegetarians/vegans, its something you owe to innocent creatures with minds and mental states and suffering and deprivation of their own.

Its your choice but not all choices are equally fair, decent, just, consistent or ethical.
I ain't about to get into this, this has been argued way too many times, it's just beating a dead horse (or cow?) now and I have no real interest in revisiting this right now. I'm sure there are already some current threads in S&E regarding this anyway.

The Garbage Disposal Unit

11th January 2011, 01:48

What? I have never heard of these requirements. FNB is not a collective and doesn't require chapter member to be veggie, only that they cook veggie for their servings, IF they want to use the banner, and there is nothing making them do so.

Chapters use consensus, but i have never seen "strict" consensus, we keep things kinda loose in san fran.

Aye, thankfully most FNB groups/crews/collectives/whateva aren't like this, but you should totally find some of the older FNB materials - fuckin' brooootal. Here in Halifax it's pretty fast and loose, and once in a blue moon we even serve dead animals to prevent them from going in the trash.

Summerspeaker

11th January 2011, 02:54

Yeah, I've seen various FNB groups that serve flesh. I try to avoid it myself, but occasionally we've set up Meat Not Masters alongside Food Not Bombs to distribute a few sandwiches or whatever.

ellipsis

11th January 2011, 03:00

Technically that means you aren't food not bombs, serving meat. Meat not masters sounds like a good solution.

Spawn of Stalin

11th January 2011, 03:38

-Is it hard to not eat meat?
I don't know, I was raised a vegetarian then turned vegan for , now I'm vegetarian again, I don't know any different. It will be hard at first, but most vegetarians in places like the UK are "converts" and they manage, once you learn the ropes you'll do fine.

-Besides rice,soy and tofu what do you eat?
Fruit, vegetables, eggs, casserole, pasta, falafel, pizza, curry, noodles, potatoes, lasagne, various assorted pies and pastries, pancakes (delicious and nutritious!), we eat lots of things. I home cook every day and have a lot of variation in my diet, I never have the same meal as the day before, in fact I rarely eat a meal I've already eaten in the past week aside from breakfast. My favourite things to eat are veg enchiladas, veg chop suey, and tagliatelle in courgette or cheese sauce. In my experience vegetarians almost always grow to become less fussy eaters, you might actually end up with more choice than when you were eating meat. In my experience meat eaters are far more likely to be picky, because they are used to things like beef or chicken being the centrepiece of most meals.

-Is it expensive?
Fuck no, when I buy a weeks worth of food I spend about the same as most of my friends do but I manage to get a lot more cool stuff like fancy lemonade and expensive fruits. Being a vegetarian on a budget is extremely easy in most of western Europe and north America.

Triple A

11th January 2011, 17:40

Thank you all for your help.

I'll try to cut meat from my diet in a progressive way and maybe eat fish once in a while.:o

PopoSmash!

12th January 2011, 00:23

What, exactly, would one do if they were allergic to, say, both nuts and soy, and they wanted to go vegetarian or vegan? I ask because my friend has those allergies.

Niccolò Rossi

12th January 2011, 00:54

What, exactly, would one do if they were allergic to, say, both nuts and soy, and they wanted to go vegetarian or vegan? I ask because my friend has those allergies.

The solution I thought would be pretty obvious. Don't go vegetarian...

Anyway, I realise my opinion might not be valued, but I would really question the nutritional value of alot of what is being suggested here.

I mean really, the lists of alternatives to rice, soy and tofu suggested by TC and Spawn of Stalin are stacked full of refined carbs. Now if you think that these have any place in a healthy diet, keep it to yourself, please, your a public health risk.

Nic.

Admiral Swagmeister G-Funk

12th January 2011, 01:24

Going vegetarian is very easy once you get into it. Its all about balancing your diet, getting the right nutrients etc, which is something even meat eaters should do if they want to eat a truly healthy diet.

The hardest thing for me was cutting junk food due to its convenient nature, but once you do it you open up a whole world of new foods, and the ethical problem is addressed .

Proukunin

14th January 2011, 02:56

I have been vegetarian for 5 years and not only do I eat soy, tofu and beans. I also eat mock meats such as Boca's burgers, ground meat, chili, chicken nuggets, burritos and others.

It's is very healthy and you get the same if not more protein from beans and soy as you would red meat.

ellipsis

14th January 2011, 17:42

What, exactly, would one do if they were allergic to, say, both nuts and soy, and they wanted to go vegetarian or vegan? I ask because my friend has those allergies.

Nuts aren't vital to a vege diet, only if you want to chug almond/cashew milk 24/7/

Nor is Soy. For a good sources of protein to replace meat w/o tofu or soy, have your friend look into hemp seed(don't know if that is too nutty) or spirulana, an algae which with like 30 percent protein.

Quail

14th January 2011, 18:54

What, exactly, would one do if they were allergic to, say, both nuts and soy, and they wanted to go vegetarian or vegan? I ask because my friend has those allergies.
There are a variety of milk replacements even though soy milk seems to be the most common. As people have pointed out in this thread, soy and nuts are far from the only vegetarian sources of protein.

14th January 2011, 19:12

What, exactly, would one do if they were allergic to, say, both nuts and soy, and they wanted to go vegetarian or vegan? I ask because my friend has those allergies.

Your friend should eat other types of beans, quinoa, lentils and seitan for dense protein, and remember that despite the myths: almost no one who isn't also starving themselves has protein deficancies and you get lots of healthy protein from rich green plant foods like spinach and broccoli - not to mention rice and other grains (which despite atkins-heart-attack-inducing myths, is healthy in whole grain varieties: only simple quickly absorbed carbs cause problems).

Protein is in tons of vegan foods not just the stuff that tastes/feels meaty like soy.

For what its worth, I don't eat nuts, they are full of fat not protein!

a soy allergy (or, as is far more likely, an intolerance that can be cured with slow introduction of soy products) is unfortunate since there are many great soy products, but its really not much of a problem to a vegan diet. Most days I don't eat any soy products (though I do love well cooked and seasoned tofu and would miss it).

Spawn of Stalin

14th January 2011, 19:23

The solution I thought would be pretty obvious. Don't go vegetarian...

Anyway, I realise my opinion might not be valued, but I would really question the nutritional value of alot of what is being suggested here.

I mean really, the lists of alternatives to rice, soy and tofu suggested by TC and Spawn of Stalin are stacked full of refined carbs. Now if you think that these have any place in a healthy diet, keep it to yourself, please, your a public health risk.

Nic.
I dunno pal, I get on just fine, the key is to home cook everyday instead of just buying ready made stuff, doing this you can make pretty much everything I mentioned healthy. You can find a good balance in pretty much any diet, almost everything I eat is made of all natural ingredients, sometimes I go nuts and just eat pizza and drink coke until the break of dawn but 9 times out of 10, I cook my meals from scratch, it's important to note that if you are not willing to cook, you are not going to make a good vegetarian, you'll just end up living off ready made pasta dishes and frozen quorn mince. When I moved out my mum spent hours and hours lecturing me on how to cook without all the bad stuff, she's a dietitian so she's kind of a psycho when it comes to healthy eating but to tell the truth I live by what she's taught me and I'm still standing, nearly 24 years and in fantastic health.

14th January 2011, 19:30

it's important to note that if you are not willing to cook, you are not going to make a good vegetarian.

I disagree that this is important to note since if you're unwilling to cook, you wont make a good omnivore either...in general its hard to eat healthy if you wont cook, but if anything its far easier to be a healthy vegan and not cook than a healthy omnivore who doesn't cook.

...you don't have to cook lots of tofu (mori-nu and blue dragon brand for example) or canned beans, or salad, or sandwiches, or avacodo, or fruit, etc - and you don't really have to cook frozen vegetables aside from boiling or steaming them. The meat-included version of processed foods and fast foods is almost always nastier anyways. The atkins diet is a shortcut to a heart attack.

Niccolò Rossi

14th January 2011, 23:18

For what its worth, I don't eat nuts, they are full of fat not protein!

God forbid! Nuts have fat in them! But I don't want to be fat!

This is why you're not entitled to give out dietry and nutritional advice.

The atkins diet is a shortcut to a heart attack.

I'm not an advocate of the Atkins diet, as such, but if you think ketogenic diets in general are unhealthy as a rule, you're mad. I'm eating cyclic-keto at the moment and it is brilliant. I'm loosing body fat (down 2kg in a month and half), maintaing muscle mass, maintaing strength levels and performance in the gym, I no longer suffer from flatulance, I no longer suffer from my previously severe bloating, I feel satiated all the time, my energy levels are constant - no more spikes and troughs.

Eating keto has done wonders for me. I've never felt better.

And regarding the specific claim of the atkins diet (or ketogenic diets in general) increasing the risk of heart attack, I'd like to know what makes you believe that. The fact that these diets are typically high in saturated fats? If so, I can gladly refer you to numerous studies on the link between diets high in saturated fats and the risk of heart disease that time and time again show no connection. This idea that diets high in saturated fats cause high cholesterol levels and that high cholesterol levels are the cause of heart disease is faulty, out dated science. If you know otherwise, let me know!

Nic.

bcbm

14th January 2011, 23:22

I mean really, the lists of alternatives to rice, soy and tofu suggested by TC and Spawn of Stalin are stacked full of refined carbs. Now if you think that these have any place in a healthy diet, keep it to yourself, please, your a public health risk.

this list?

Wheat, bread, pasta, potatos, beans of every variety including chickpeas and lentils, vegetarian sushi (including egg free veg tempura sushi) - vegan baked goods, noodles, quinoa, hummus, falafel, pizza (both cheese free with veggies and with vegan cheese), eggplant/aubergine, zucchini/courgettes, salads, carrots, broccoli, stir fried veggies, steamed veggies, french fries, potato chips, potato wedges, wide assortment of candies and commercially made cookies (yes many contain no animal products!), parsnips, japanese veggie gyoza dumplings, chinese veggie shu mai dumplings, seitan (a type of wheat protein) made in many many different ways, TVP (a type of processed veg meat), apples, bananas, pears, nuts of every variety, dark chocolate, most alcoholic beverages, all sodas/soft-drinks, veggie burgers, bean burgers, excellent vegan meat analogues like Gardien chick'n, vegan "icecream" of every variety(made with soy milk or coconut milk or rice milk), scrambled "eggs" made of tofu and tumeric and spices and vegan egg-replacer...

pretty sure a lot of those things can be part of a healthy diet... i mean, apples? carrots?

Niccolò Rossi

15th January 2011, 00:05

pretty sure a lot of those things can be part of a healthy diet... i mean, apples? carrots?

I got no problem with apples and carrots. I do have a bit of a problem with stuff like this:

Wheat, bread, pasta, noodles, pizza, potato chips, wide assortment of candies and commercially made cookies, most alcoholic beverages, all sodas/soft-drinks, veggie burgers, vegan meat analogues, vegan "icecream"...

Nic.

ellipsis

15th January 2011, 01:51

Wheat, bread, pasta, noodles, most alcoholic beverages

Yah bread and pasta have no place in a healthy diet...:laugh::laugh: red wine, bitters, tinctures, too. nasty business.:rolleyes:

ellipsis

15th January 2011, 01:56

The ketogenic diet is a high-fat, adequate-protein (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protein), low-carbohydrate diet (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Low-carbohydrate_diet) that in medicine is used primarily to treat difficult-to-control (refractory) epilepsy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epilepsy) in children. The diet mimics aspects of starvation (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Starvation) by forcing the body to burn fats rather than carbohydrates (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carbohydrate). Wow sounds AWESOME! Did u watch the Porygon episode too many times?

Widerstand

15th January 2011, 02:32

-Is it hard to not eat meat?

Is it hard not to eat cockroaches?

-Besides rice,soy and tofu what do you eat?

Grass. Noodles, potatoes, apples, onions, spinach, mushrooms, cakes, donuts, french fries, oranges, citrons, bananas, oats, nuts, beans, salad, cucumber, tomatoes, kokos, etc.

-Is it expensive?

Name me one country in which meat is cheaper than vegetables.

Niccolò Rossi

15th January 2011, 04:04

Yah bread and pasta have no place in a healthy diet...:laugh::laugh: red wine, bitters, tinctures, too. nasty business.:rolleyes:

I'm not hearing argument here...

If you've got a point, make it. If you've got a question, ask it.

Wow sounds AWESOME! Did u watch the Porygon episode too many times?

If you are willing to take the topic seriously I could refer you to the very well referenced and very extensive work of Lyle MacDonald in 'The Ketogenic Diet'. Send me a PM and I can give you the PDF.

Or instead you can just dishonestly copy and paste the first line from the wikipedia page...

Also, what is a 'Porygon'.

Nic.

ellipsis

17th January 2011, 00:38

I'm not hearing argument here...

If you've got a point, make it. If you've got a question, ask it.

My point was I find the idea to be laughable.

If you are willing to take the topic seriously I could refer you to the very well referenced and very extensive work of Lyle MacDonald in 'The Ketogenic Diet'. Send me a PM and I can give you the PDF.

Or instead you can just dishonestly copy and paste the first line from the wikipedia page...

Also, what is a 'Porygon'.

Nic.

You know, I am not willing to take the idea that a diet designed to treat epilepsy is a good alternative to vegetarianism/veganism for non-epileptics seriously, sorry. And if I was, I never read books that people refer to me in lieu of making original arguments or even summarizing the arguements made in said refered book.

So yah I'll be "dishonest."

Also Porygon is a type of pokemon that is digital, the orignal airing of an episode featuring the porygon/lots of flashing lights, caused a massive wave of epileptic episodes amongst the unsuspecting japanese public, in particular children. now this narrative is disputed, modern skeptic magazine argued that it was more likely mass hysteria.

And not to make light of epilepsy, i just like making semi-obscure cultural references.

progressive_lefty

17th January 2011, 00:45

I'm a vegetarian, and was a Vegan for 5 months.
I'd say the worst thing about being a vegetarian is getting into fights with other people about it. I usually try and avoid that conversation. When I was in Brazil everyone was always saying that it was unhealthy or wrong. But I feel great as a vegetarian, I could never go back to eating meat. You have to get blood tests on your B12 levels every six months though, just to be on the safe side.

17th January 2011, 00:49

The anti-carb diet myths are just that, myths. Most of the world today and nearly all the world through most of history lived on mostly an unrefined carbohydrate based diet - rice, wheat, potatos, yams, maze, these are what civilizations got built on. The high fat, animal protein based atkins style diet leads to the diseases of wealth: obesity, diabetes, heart disease, most cancers.

Niccolò Rossi

17th January 2011, 05:38

Most of the world today and nearly all the world through most of history lived on mostly an unrefined carbohydrate based diet - rice, wheat, potatos, yams, maze, these are what civilizations got built on.

You're actually right. It was the rise of agriculture that provided the basis for the rise of civilisation. The rise of agriculture also meant radical changes for the human diet, namely the consumption of much greater amounts of carbohydrates (alongside a greater increase in food in absolute terms aswell of course).

However, this fact in no way implies that high carb diets are in any way more suited for the human metabolism than diets high in protein and fat and low in carbohydrate.

The high fat, animal protein based atkins style diet leads to the diseases of wealth [sic]: obesity, diabetes, heart disease, most cancers.

You're not bringing any facts to the table here. Only assertions.

In fact the assertions themselves aren't even credible. High fat, high protein, low carb diets cause diabetes!?

The best part of all is the irony of this quote. Obseity, diabetes, heart disease and cancer, amongst others, are commonly referred to as diseases of civilisation. Funny that whole business about the basis of modern civilisation being a diet plentiful in...

Nic.

Niccolò Rossi

17th January 2011, 05:50

My point was I find the idea to be laughable.

Just like handful of people happen to find the idea of world human community, a free association of producers, a world without bosses, war, poverty or money to be laughable, right?

You know, I am not willing to take the idea that a diet designed to treat epilepsy is a good alternative to vegetarianism/veganism for non-epileptics seriously, sorry. Apologising for being small minded doesn't change anything I'm affriad.

Also, for the record, the modern ketogenic diet has it's origins in the treatment of the symptoms of epilepsy. It's applications for fat loss were discovered later. Of course, none of this stopped the inuit people from eating aexaclty this kind of for generations.

And if I was, I never read books that people refer to me in lieu of making original arguments or even summarizing the arguements made in said refered book.It's good to know you value your own ignorance so highly.

Also Porygon is a type of pokemonAhhhhh, my mistake. I don't watch Pokemon... sorry

Nic.

Nothing Human Is Alien

17th January 2011, 05:58

The anti-carb diet myths are just that, myths. Most of the world today

Most people also live on less than $10 a day. Should we aim for that across the board?

and nearly all the world through most of history lived on mostly an unrefined carbohydrate based diet - rice, wheat, potatos, yams, maze, these are what civilizations got built on.Civilizations also got built on war, slavery and exploited labor. Probably not stuff we wanna base ourselves on moving forward.

We should also note that the domestication of wild animals played a large role in the advance of humanity out of the barbarity of the past, when people were consumed with battling nature on a daily basis just to survive.

The high fat, animal protein based atkins style diet leads to the diseases of wealth: obesity, diabetes, heart disease, most cancers.There are a lot of folks who wish their biggest problems were "diseases of wealth."

We've all gotta die sometime. Seems better to die after 85 years of eating lots of easily accessible delicious foods from a heart attack than to die of malaria after 7 years of eating grass and whatever other scraps can be found.

Veg_Athei_Socialist

17th January 2011, 07:19

You're not bringing any facts to the table here. Only assertions.

In fact the assertions themselves aren't even credible. High fat, high protein, low carb diets cause diabetes!?

The best part of all is the irony of this quote. Obseity, diabetes, heart disease and cancer, amongst others, are commonly referred to as diseases of civilisation. Funny that whole business about the basis of modern civilisation being a diet plentiful in...

Nic.
Watch the Film Forks Over Knives:http://www.forksoverknives.com/

Nothing Human Is Alien

17th January 2011, 07:37

I could care less if some individuals don't want to eat meat or wear fur. That's not the problem.

I don't think dietary and clothing choices should be politicized. I mostly try to argue against that, since it's almost always tied in with the politics of Malthusianism, managerial sectors, etc. It's an obstacle more than anything.

I've spent some time on these questions on this board (read through the whole threads):

[/URL]http://www.revleft.com/vb/some-animal-rights-t135498/index.html?t=135498 (http://www.revleft.com/vb/some-animal-rights-t135498/index.html?t=135498)
[url]http://www.revleft.com/vb/grey-wolf-hunting-t71816/index.html?t=71816
http://www.revleft.com/vb/meat-workers-counter-t146743/index.html?t=146743

I would also recommend these:

In Defense of Fur (http://www.spiked-online.com/index.php/site/article/1713/)

Eating less meat won't reduce global warming (http://www.independent.co.uk/environment/eating-less-meat-wont-reduce-global-warming-study-1927595.html)
http://www.revleft.com/vb/revleft/misc/progress.gif

Niccolò Rossi

17th January 2011, 09:16

Watch the Film Forks Over Knives:http://www.forksoverknives.com/

It says it's in cinemas March. Do you have a torrent you could share?

I'd actually really like to watch it. Not that I agree with the premise. Ironically, the trailer tirades the 'western diet' as the problem and I would agree. Meat itself is not the culprit though.

I would argue the fundamental problem with the modern 'western diet' is refining and processing (of meats and vegatable products alike). The answer is very simple, eat whole foods as they are found in nature. Eat the fruit as it grows on tree, eat the root as it grows in the earth, eat the flesh as it that comes off the bone.

Nic.

Veg_Athei_Socialist

17th January 2011, 18:35

It says it's in cinemas March. Do you have a torrent you could share?

I'd actually really like to watch it. Not that I agree with the premise. Ironically, the trailer tirades the 'western diet' as the problem and I would agree. Meat itself is not the culprit though.

I would argue the fundamental problem with the modern 'western diet' is refining and processing (of meats and vegatable products alike). The answer is very simple, eat whole foods as they are found in nature. Eat the fruit as it grows on tree, eat the root as it grows in the earth, eat the flesh as it that comes off the bone.

Nic.

Sorry I forgot not every one could see it. You'd have to look and see if theres a select showing in your area. If theres not I guess you have to wait.

ellipsis

17th January 2011, 20:34

Just like handful of people happen to find the idea of world human community, a free association of producers, a world without bosses, war, poverty or money to be laughable, right?

Valid point, one that is almost a meme on revleft "you think my idea is crazy; most people think communism is crazy; we agree that communism isn't crazy; ergo my idea is not crazy." Do you need me to explain the logical fallacy of that argument.

Apologising for being small minded doesn't change anything I'm affriad. Not pursuing research of every idea that is mentioned to me makes me small minded? Under that logic reading up on eugenics, nazi racial theory, south african cricket teams makes me small minded

Of course, none of this stopped the inuit people from eating aexaclty this kind of for generations.Also that is the only kind of diet that is possible in that climate... its is wild, hand hunted meat, very different than the farm-raised meat you eat, (unless you hunt all your own meat let me know)... also their bodies adapted to the diet through generations...

Ironically, the trailer tirades the 'western diet' as the problem and I would agree. Meat itself is not the culprit though.

I would argue the fundamental problem with the modern 'western diet' is refining and processing (of meats and vegatable products alike). The answer is very simple, eat whole foods as they are found in nature. Eat the fruit as it grows on tree, eat the root as it grows in the earth, eat the flesh as it that comes off the bone.

I will agree on this point. Also I should be clear that I do eat meat regularly but very little compared to the standard diet. Most of my diet is veggies and fruit, and rice. But I am a freegan or aspire to be as much as possible so I will eat whatever is put in front of me, not for health reason but because life is just a game of calories.

Also I think that if ketogenic diets work for you, great, I am not trying to convert anybody to any diet, it just doesn't make sense for me and most people IMO. It sounds like you are getting great results and are healthy, which is awesome.

It's good to know you value your own ignorance so highly.

We've all gotta die sometime. Seems better to die after 85 years of eating lots of easily accessible delicious foods from a heart attack than to die of malaria after 7 years of eating grass and whatever other scraps can be found.

Logic fail, does not compute... are these the only two options?

Also how is meat easily accessible? hunting trapping and fishing are HARD, try to get all of your calories that way. also you kind need tools like guns, traps etc. you need to grow food for the meat if you farm raise it, so to grow meat you need to grow plants. when you grow plants you don't need to grow meat.

So yah I'd like to know ONE WAY in which meat is easily accessible.

Niccolò Rossi

17th January 2011, 21:11

I think what needs to be said is at an end here. Just a last couple of comments.

Valid point, one that is almost a meme on revleft "you think my idea is crazy; most people think communism is crazy; we agree that communism isn't crazy; ergo my idea is not crazy." Do you need me to explain the logical fallacy of that argument.

*My emphasis added*

I think you muddle up these two steps. This isn't my logic at all.

My point is, you can't just through an idea out the window because it doesn't correspond with your world view. You have to try and engage with it seriously before you can disregard it or criticise it. Of course, if you don't want to, you don't have to, but then again, you don't need to rubbish the idea on a public forum either.

Also that is the only kind of diet that is possible in that climate... its is wild, hand hunted meat, very different than the farm-raised meat you eat, (unless you hunt all your own meat let me know)

Indeed.

also their bodies adapted to the diet through generations

I'm sure if you posted this elsewhere on revleft where other people would see this you'd be labeled some kind of pseudo-racist. Reality is, the inuit people's digestive tracts and metabolic processes are no different to the rest of the human species*. They aren't some kind of sub-species.

*Their insulin resistance may be on average better or worse, they may be on average at less risk of this or that disease or genetic disorder but it's not what I'm talking about.

Nic.

Sir Comradical

17th January 2011, 21:13

I was thinking if I should become vegetarian and I decided to ask some vegetarian users some questions:

-Is it hard to not eat meat?
-Besides rice,soy and tofu what do you eat?
-Is it expensive?

- It's pretty easy not to eat meat, you just need to know where to go to buy your groceries.
- Kidney Beans, chick-peas, black-eyed peas, lentils, paneer, almonds...
- It's actually cheaper. Especially if you buy legumes in bulk from Indian grocery stores like my family does.

I'm not a vegetarian, but it's not uncommon for me to go a week with no meat. These days I get a lot of my protein from legumes and fish.

ellipsis

17th January 2011, 21:43

My point is, you can't just through an idea out the window because it doesn't correspond with your world view. You have to try and engage with it seriously before you can disregard it or criticise it. Of course, if you don't want to, you don't have to, but then again, you don't need to rubbish the idea on a public forum either.
Funny thing is, I CAN do all of these things, if I so chose. I CAN do as I please, and if that makes me an asshole, then I am an asshole. I have seriously engaged the idea in my mind, it is not a relevant topic to me, that is enough for me, bullocks to your need for me obey certain rules of forensics.

I'm sure if you posted this elsewhere on revleft where other people would see this you'd be labeled some kind of pseudo-racist. Reality is, the inuit people's digestive tracts and metabolic processes are no different to the rest of the human species*. They aren't some kind of sub-species.
You are free to report me to an admin as such. The idea that geo-specific lifeforms adapt to their environments over time through means of natural selection should not be that controversial. Perhaps these adaptations take place over an individuals lifespan, I am not an evolutionary biologist, nor student of it. The "western diet" we were talking about has had particularly devasting results as its been introduced to asia and the pacific islands, manifesting in a diabetes epidemic in china and increased levels of obescity.
I know if started eat raw seal meat and caribou, I would get pretty fucking sick. or maybe I'm a quasi-rascist (a pseduo-racist would be a false racism, whereas I think you are trying to say that I am being borderline racist)

17th January 2011, 22:02

I'm sure if you posted this elsewhere on revleft where other people would see this you'd be labeled some kind of pseudo-racist. Reality is, the inuit people's digestive tracts and metabolic processes are no different to the rest of the human species*. They aren't some kind of sub-species.

*Their insulin resistance may be on average better or worse, they may be on average at less risk of this or that disease or genetic disorder but it's not what I'm talking about.

Nic.

I have no opinion on this really, but out of curiosity, what do you make of the apparent fact that Europeans and northern and north-east Asians lost the pigment in their skin over many generations in an apparent adaptation to prevent vitamin D deficancy in weak sunlight - while at the same time being at far greater risk of skin cancer in tropical climates...or how tropical populations have blood type variations that potentially offer melaria resistance. Or for that matter that some populations in colder climates are way furrier and bulkier on average.

or how distribution of lactose tolerance closely maps the historical distribution of cattle, to the point where lactose intolerance percentiles are in the single digits in Europe but many east Asian groups will have it in the high 90s with some Native American tribes at apparently 100%. Is that not a major difference in people's digestive tracts? Clines, which is what we're talking about, do not make a subspecies, but neither is it accurate to say that any given population is genetically the same as any other when there are apparent adaptive variations..

Niccolò Rossi

17th January 2011, 22:18

You are free to report me to an admin as such.

No, there isn't any issue here, and even if there was it's none of my concern.

The "western diet" we were talking about has had particularly devasting results as its been introduced to asia and the pacific islands, manifesting in a diabetes epidemic in china and increased levels of obescity.

I would say its devastating everywhere, but its beside the point.

I know if started eat raw seal meat and caribou, I would get pretty fucking sick.

Maybe, maybe not. Personally, I don't imagine there should be an issue. Ironically this is coming from someone who eats meat, but only when it comes out a garbage bin?

or maybe I'm a quasi-rascist (a pseduo-racist would be a false racism, whereas I think you are trying to say that I am being borderline racist)

That's the ticket. You see, "I'm a simple man..."

Nic.

Niccolò Rossi

17th January 2011, 22:24

I have no opinion on this really, but out of curiosity, what do you make of the apparent fact that Europeans and northern and north-east Asians lost the pigment in their skin over many generations in an apparent adaptation to prevent vitamin D deficancy in weak sunlight - while at the same time being at far greater risk of skin cancer in tropical climates...or how tropical populations have blood type variations that potentially offer melaria resistance. Or for that matter that some populations in colder climates are way furrier and bulkier on average.

or how distribution of lactose tolerance closely maps the historical distribution of cattle, to the point where lactose intolerance percentiles are in the single digits in Europe but many east Asian groups will have it in the high 90s with some Native American tribes at apparently 100%. Is that not a major difference in people's digestive tracts? Clines, which is what we're talking about, do not make a subspecies, but neither is it accurate to say that any given population is genetically the same as any other when there are apparent adaptive variations..

This is actually a fair point. I don't object to any of the what you've said here. I'd really like to see the stats on the claims of variability in lactose intolerance - not that I'm denying it. It's very interesting!

None the less, I don't think there is any basis for claiming that the metabolic functions of Inuit people should be significantly different from other human populations simply because their diet is higher in fats and protiens and lower in carbs. There is no basis, as I understand it, for this to happen, unlike for example, in the case of the digestion of lactose (which is perfectly logical).

Nic.

Widerstand

18th January 2011, 01:21

My point was I find the idea to be laughable.

You know, I am not willing to take the idea that a diet designed to treat epilepsy is a good alternative to vegetarianism/veganism for non-epileptics seriously, sorry. And if I was, I never read books that people refer to me in lieu of making original arguments or even summarizing the arguements made in said refered book.

So yah I'll be "dishonest."

Also Porygon is a type of pokemon that is digital, the orignal airing of an episode featuring the porygon/lots of flashing lights, caused a massive wave of epileptic episodes amongst the unsuspecting japanese public, in particular children. now this narrative is disputed, modern skeptic magazine argued that it was more likely mass hysteria.

And not to make light of epilepsy, i just like making semi-obscure cultural references.

As an epileptic, all I have to say is FUCK YEAH WEED! best drug ever :)

ellipsis

18th January 2011, 02:30

Ironically this is coming from someone who eats meat, but only when it comes out a garbage bin?
Nic.

Well I do buy meat its just that i don't buy food often, so much of the meat that inhabits my icebox at any one time spent time in a dumpster. But dumpstered meat is rare in my rounds so I don't eat lots of meat, at least at home.

Nothing Human Is Alien

18th January 2011, 04:11

Logic fail, does not compute... are these the only two options? Were you following the thread at all? I was counterposing what TC painted as the terrible "diseases of wealth" to the sort of diseases and conditions that countless millions are forced into because they don't have access to things like meat and vegetables from large modern farms.

Also how is meat easily accessible? hunting trapping and fishing are HARD, try to get all of your calories that way. also you kind need tools like guns, traps etc. you need to grow food for the meat if you farm raise it, so to grow meat you need to grow plants. when you grow plants you don't need to grow meat.

So yah I'd like to know ONE WAY in which meat is easily accessible.Are you kidding? I was comparing modern methods of farming things like meat to the past, when people did actually have to rely on "hard" things like hunting and fishing (though many still do to some extent, even in the U.S.).

The domestication of animals freed people from the need to rely on spotty hunting, trapping and gathering methods and allowed lesser input by fewer people to feed more.

For most people in the advanced countries today, getting meat, vegetables, bread, etc. requires all of ... going to the store and buying it. That's possible because of modern farming and manufacturing techniques. It's not something to lament, but something to build upon. Let's all look forward to the day that the foodstuffs people want and need come from large mechanized farms and production facilities, automated to the max, requiring minimum human input and freeing up time for all sorts of other development.