Supermarket Shooting in Arizona

[IcarusAngel]

Target was an Arizona democrat but others were caught in the crossfire including a 9 year old girl:


Representative Gabrielle Giffords (http://topics.nytimes.com/top/reference/timestopics/people/g/gabrielle_giffords/index.html?inline=nyt-per), an Arizona Democrat, and 18 others were shot Saturday morning when a gunman opened fire outside a supermarket where Ms. Giffords was meeting with constituents.

Six of the victims died, among them John M. Roll, the chief judge for the United States District Court for Arizona, and a 9-year-old girl, the Pima County sheriff, Clarence W. Dupnik, said.

....

Investigators identified the gunman as Jared Lee Loughner, 22, and said that he was refusing to cooperate with the authorities and had invoked his Fifth Amendment rights. Mr. Loughner was in custody with the Federal Bureau of Investigation on Saturday night, the Pima Country sheriff’s office said.



Mr. Loughner had exhibited increasingly strange behavior in recent months, including ominous Internet postings — at least one showing a gun — and a series of videos in which he made disjointed statements on topics like the gold standard and mind control.




http://www.nytimes.com/2011/01/09/us/politics/09giffords.html?_r=1

[RGacky3]

Another Glenn Beck idiot, I literally think Glenn should be held accountable, (not legally of coarse), when your on national TV, saying democrats are the next hitler and the world is going to collapse theres gonna at least a few idiots listening that believe you, and one will do something.

Hell, what would you do if you realized you could take out the next hitler and save the world.

This is when lies get dangerous.

[ComradeMan]

Italian reports stated that she was alive but in critical condition, despite rumours of her death. Is she still alive?

The poor people in the crossfire too.

Only in America.... :rolleyes:

[Dimentio]

Italian reports stated that she was alive but in critical condition, despite rumours of her death. Is she still alive?

The poor people in the crossfire too.

Only in America.... :rolleyes:

Political assassinations have happened in Sweden though.

The record though in the west was held by one country where the Prime Minister was kidnapped by a radical communist group for wanting a coalition government between the main right centre party and the official communist party, and was held in an apartment just a few blocks from the offices of the security police, while the government refused to negotiate and eventually he was murdered and dropped in a ditch.

[RGacky3]

Only in America.... :rolleyes:

Really? politican assasinations happen everywhere. BTW, your from Italy right? Case closed.

[ComradeMan]

Really? politican assasinations happen everywhere. BTW, your from Italy right? Case closed.

What the fuck is that supposed to mean? Fuck you. BTW in Italy no one in politics is posting maps of Italy with fucking crosswire targets next to the names of opposition candidates etc.... think about it. The "only in America" comment was in reference to the hysteria that US members are talking about viz. the television etc.

[RGacky3]

What it was supposed to mean was the same thing "only in America meant." No on in italian politics is doing that, your right, but shit there ain't pretty.

[ComradeMan]

Political assassinations have happened in Sweden though.

The record though in the west was held by one country where the Prime Minister was kidnapped by a radical communist group for wanting a coalition government between the main right centre party and the official communist party, and was held in an apartment just a few blocks from the offices of the security police, while the government refused to negotiate and eventually he was murdered and dropped in a ditch.

Which was backed by whom...? :rolleyes: I believe you may be referring to Aldo Moro, but he wasn't found in a ditch so are you referring to someone else?

The BR were not a radical communist group, they were a front organisation created by the strategy of tension during Operation Gladio to discredit the left.

[IcarusAngel]

Is she still alive?

She is still alive which is pretty amazing since she took one in the head. It must have went right through and her doctor said he experts her to recover. Unfortunately the child is definitely dead.


Another Glenn Beck idiot, I literally think Glenn should be held accountable, (not legally of coarse),

Could have been. He was a constitutionalist and an advocate for the gold standard according to his youtube videos. He also has a wacky video about "mind control" (I hate that right-wing bizarre conspiracy shit). He also lists Mein Kampf and the Communist Manifesto on his myspace profile, which someone posted here (http://www.zerohedge.com/article/jared-lee-laughners-youtube-site-reveals-clues-about-killer-lists-mein-kampf-and-communist-m).


when your on national TV, saying democrats are the next hitler and the world is going to collapse theres gonna at least a few idiots listening that believe you, and one will do something.

I liked this analysis:
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/3036677/ns/msnbc_tv-countdown_with_keith_olbermann/#40983401

[Demogorgon]

What the fuck is that supposed to mean? Fuck you. BTW in Italy no one in politics is posting maps of Italy with fucking crosswire targets next to the names of opposition candidates etc.... think about it. The "only in America" comment was in reference to the hysteria that US members are talking about viz. the television etc.
I think he just meant these things happen all over, such as the Italian Prime Minister who was killed or the two assassinations in Sweden or the German Cabinet Minister who is in a wheelchair because of an attempt on his life years ago. Plus the British MP who was stabbed recently.

Of course it is only in America that you have someone who has somehow become a mainstream politician putting out a crosshair map. I wonder if it has crossed her mind yet that that may not have been a very good idea.

[ComradeMan]

Of course it is only in America that you have someone who has somehow become a mainstream politician putting out a crosshair map. I wonder if it has crossed her mind yet that that may not have been a very good idea.

That's what I was referring to.

[trivas7]

Another Glenn Beck idiot, I literally think Glenn should be held accountable, (not legally of coarse), when your on national TV, saying democrats are the next hitler and the world is going to collapse theres gonna at least a few idiots listening that believe you, and one will do something.

OTC, MSNBC reports that a friend of the assailant described him as left-wing, government-hating and obsessed with the Mayan 2012 prophecy. Sounds like the stereotypical 19th century anarchist IMO.

[RGacky3]

So he's left wing, wants a gold standard, obsessed with government monitary control, obsessed with the constitution, I would'nt classify him as right wing or left wing, I would calssify him as a ... conspiracy wierdo, who CLEARLY is influenced by people like Glenn Beck.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/01/08/jared-lee-loughner-gabrielle-giffords-shooter_n_806243.html

Not at all like the anarchists in the 19th century. His whole thing was about the gold standard and government mind control.

[Havet]

Unfortunately the child is definitely dead.


Yeah the child is dead. Little 9 year old girl I think

http://nationaljournal.com/congress/arizona-shooting-rocks-the-political-world-20110108

[PoliticalNightmare]

OTC, MSNBC reports that a friend of the assailant described him as left-wing, government-hating and obsessed with the Mayan 2012 prophecy. Sounds like the stereotypical 19th century anarchist IMO.

The propaganda of the deed acts by the classical anarchists were a way of seeking retribution for criminal acts by big business men and politicians, particularly in the way they dealt with the Paris Commune; one of them shot dead x number of men (can't remember how many) simply for holding a factory lock-in.

So not the same as this deed which is nothing more than a petty hate crime against policies. Not that I advocate events like the propaganda of the deed which furthermore was only acted out by a minority group of anarchists.

Also, I don't know whether I'd describe this guy as a left-winger - his views seem to be fairly mixed.

In any case, it is definitely a case for the Tea Party and Glenn Beck to stop using hate rhetoric, associating the American Democrats with the German Nazi Party.

[Revolution starts with U]

Italian reports stated that she was alive but in critical condition, despite rumours of her death. Is she still alive?

The poor people in the crossfire too.

Only in America.... :rolleyes:

Et tu Brute?

:rolleyes:

[TheCultofAbeLincoln]

I used to live in her district, worked at a safeway a bit further up oracle incidentally. I have to say that such a thing is quite tragic, but I am not at all suprised that it happened there. The politics is quite polarized and it is especially bad on the right. Though some are reporting he shot the judge first, perhaps there was another motive. A lot of people in AZ live in tgheir own little world, and if something is not the fed's fault then it's the illegals. If not that, then it's this or that or aliens.

I am quite curious as to what high school he went to [edit: Mountain View, up on the north side in Oro Valley, for anyone who is curious]. Also I wonder if Raul Grijalva is going to be paranoid as hell after this.


I sympathize very deeply with the families of the victims, especially those of the children.

edit: I want to add that this isn't a particluarly violent city by any stretch. Hopefully this brazen act of violence wakes people in the area up to what may be happening regarding a more widespread right wing movement.

[#FF0000]

I wonder if it has crossed her mind yet that that may not have been a very good idea.

Oh, it definitely has. She took it down before they authorities even released the gunman's name.


OTC, MSNBC reports that a friend of the assailant described him as left-wing, government-hating and obsessed with the Mayan 2012 prophecy. Sounds like the stereotypical 19th century anarchist IMO.

That friend knew him in 2007 or something, so things can change. The guy's facebook and youtube listed The Communist Manifesto, Mein Kampf, and a bunch of Ayn Rand books on a list of his favorites. To be honest he just sounds crazy, even though it'd be really easy to say he's a libertarian given his obsession with gold currency or whatever.

[Che a chara]

The guy was anti-right and was a democrat voter and even donated thousands of dollars to this congresswoman. Apparently he was pissed off with a change in some of her policies, but all that does not mean he was a "left-wing loony", he was just a loony and this goes to show the nature of the hateful political bullshit prevalent in the USA.

[Che a chara]

http://hillbuzz.org/2011/01/08/my-congresswoman-voted-against-nancy-pelosi-and-is-now-dead-to-me-eerie-daily-kos-hit-piece-on-gabrielle-giffords-just-two-days-before-assassination-attempt-on-her/

[Bud Struggle]

The guy was a psychopath. To attribute his actions to any particular political faction, party or ideology is at best nonsense and at worse grandstanding on a tragedy.

[Che a chara]

The guy was a psychopath. To attribute his actions to any particular political faction, party or ideology is at best nonsense and at worse grandstanding on a tragedy.

It is a definite tragedy, but would you not think it was politically motivated ? the guy was a lunatic and probably could have snapped at anytime, but do you not think the political situation at hand sent him over the edge ?

[Sasha]

"psychopaths" (i would say that this guy is far more likely to be an paranoid schizoid) and their actions dont exist in an vacuum.
two very legitemate questions do need answers and the US politicians and society need to take an long hard look at themself to answer them;
1- while maybe not intentional does the "dont retreat, reload" "gunsight maps" "2nd amendment solutions" etc etc insurectionary rethoric that palin etc are spouting to court the lunatic fringe inspire and bolster the bat shit insane luntatic fringe of the lunatic fringe? no matter how much Wiliam Pierce claimed "the turner diaries" where an work of fiction no one from us would claim he wasnt partly responisble for Timothy McVeighs actions, incitement is incitement, also if that incitement leads to actions the inciter doesnt agree with.

2- how the hell can an paranoid schizoid get hold of an legal firearm? even if you support gun rights people should wonder if the situation in the US/Arizona isnt out of control...

[PoliticalNightmare]

The guy was a psychopath. To attribute his actions to any particular political faction, party or ideology is at best nonsense and at worse grandstanding on a tragedy.

Perhaps but you do not think that it is time for Sarah Palin to stop mapping out "target" Democrats or for Glenn Beck to stop associating Obama with with Hitler?

[ComradeMan]

Perhaps but you do not think that it is time for Sarah Palin to stop mapping out "target" Democrats or for Glenn Beck to stop associating Obama with with Hitler?

Hitler? I thought they were saying he was a OMG OMG "communist"?

But yeah, the politics of insulting and hatred is pretty bad really.

Like when Berlusconi got attacked and hit with a statue- okay, it's not as grave as this situation by any means, but then afterwards there was all this support from some and condemnation from others- complaining of a political climate of hatred that they in truth created. The individual involved suffered from mental health issues.

[PoliticalNightmare]

Hitler? I thought they were saying he was a OMG OMG "communist"?

He also liked Ayn Rand which will no doubt be conveniently ignored by Fox News. Oddly enough, other books in his collection include Mein Kampf and the Communist Manifesto.

[Lt. Ferret]

i loathe the tea party and sarah palin and i think they are garbage, but i dont blame this on them. this guy was literally batshit fucking insane.

[FreeEire]

Sounds like the work of a lone lunatic.

However, with hindsight now available, its going to make Palin's crosshairs stunt look bad, along with the fact that Gifford's rival in the last election held a "shoot a fully automatic M16" fundraiser which had the tagline of "help remove Gabrielle Gifford from office".

Politics in the US is a brutal trade, I remember during the Democratic Primaries in which Obama was contesting, I was in a hotel room near Seattle watching Fox New and the vitriol eerily reminded me of Orwell's "Hate Week" in 1984.

[Dimentio]

The guy was anti-right and was a democrat voter and even donated thousands of dollars to this congresswoman. Apparently he was pissed off with a change in some of her policies, but all that does not mean he was a "left-wing loony", he was just a loony and this goes to show the nature of the hateful political bullshit prevalent in the USA.

I cannot see any connections between BoyBlue and Jared Loughner. Neither do I believe that he donated money, simply because given his lifestyle I sincerely doubt that he got money.

[Bud Struggle]

It is a definite tragedy, but would you not think it was politically motivated ? the guy was a lunatic and probably could have snapped at anytime, but do you not think the political situation at hand sent him over the edge ?

That's a fair comment--but you can't limit political discourse on what some lunatic is going to morph it into.


"psychopaths" (i would say that this guy is far more likely to be an paranoid schizoid) and their actions dont exist in an vacuum. No argument there.



;
1- while maybe not intentional does the "dont retreat, reload" "gunsight maps" "2nd amendment solutions" etc etc insurectionary rethoric that palin etc are spouting to court the lunatic fringe inspire and bolster the bat shit insane luntatic fringe of the lunatic fringe? no matter how much Wiliam Pierce claimed "the turner diaries" where an work of fiction no one from us would claim he wasnt partly responisble for Timothy McVeighs actions, incitement is incitement, also if that incitement leads to actions the inciter doesnt agree with. Yes but there are all sorts of lunatic fringes. Communists are running around the world in places like Peru and India and the Phillipines committing acts of violence. They might (not in this case, of course) be the cause of people randomly killing elected officials and committing acts of terrorism at other times and places


2- how the hell can an paranoid schizoid get hold of an legal firearm? even if you support gun rights people should wonder if the situation in the US/Arizona isnt out of control... Well, I don't know the situation here, but until you are legally declaired insane--you could buy anything you want.

[ComradeMan]

Italian News is talking about links with far right/white supremacist groups and linking this to anti-semitism. Is this case? Or is this the media at work-?

[Tablo]

Italian News is talking about links with far right/white supremacist groups and linking this to anti-semitism. Is this case? Or is this the media at work-?
I've heard he was anti-semitic and influenced by the tea party movement through US media.

[TheCultofAbeLincoln]

@ Bud: AZ is very liberal with their gun laws, as in, they don't really have many.


However, with hindsight now available, its going to make Palin's crosshairs stunt look bad, along with the fact that Gifford's rival in the last election held a "shoot a fully automatic M16" fundraiser which had the tagline of "help remove Gabrielle Gifford from office".

With hindsight yes that does look appaling but in reality it's not that much different than "Pay $5k for some shitty hot dogs to help remove _____" fundraisers that happen all the time.


1- while maybe not intentional does the "dont retreat, reload" "gunsight maps" "2nd amendment solutions" etc etc insurectionary rethoric that palin etc are spouting to court the lunatic fringe inspire and bolster the bat shit insane luntatic fringe of the lunatic fringe? no matter how much Wiliam Pierce claimed "the turner diaries" where an work of fiction no one from us would claim he wasnt partly responisble for Timothy McVeighs actions, incitement is incitement, also if that incitement leads to actions the inciter doesnt agree with.

I disagree. It's one thing to say we need to rally around the right to own a firearm, low taxes, cutting speding etc and quite another to shoot 18 people. Unless someone is trying to incite violence they shouldn't be linked to this event so long as they take the appropriate steps and condemn the attack in full force (which was expected, but still nice, to see Boehner and, especially, McCain do).

edit: I heard on npr this morning that the 9 year old was born on 9-11. I guess I shoudl have realized earlier, but that really put into perspective to me how young the girl was. So tragic, I can't imagine how the family is doing.

[Dimentio]

I've heard he was anti-semitic and influenced by the tea party movement through US media.

According to FBI, he had visited the American Renaissance website quite often.

[TC]

"psychopaths" (i would say that this guy is far more likely to be an paranoid schizoid) and their actions dont exist in an vacuum.
two very legitemate questions do need answers and the US politicians and society need to take an long hard look at themself to answer them;
1- while maybe not intentional does the "dont retreat, reload" "gunsight maps" "2nd amendment solutions" etc etc insurectionary rethoric that palin etc are spouting to court the lunatic fringe inspire and bolster the bat shit insane luntatic fringe of the lunatic fringe? no matter how much Wiliam Pierce claimed "the turner diaries" where an work of fiction no one from us would claim he wasnt partly responisble for Timothy McVeighs actions, incitement is incitement, also if that incitement leads to actions the inciter doesnt agree with.

2- how the hell can an paranoid schizoid get hold of an legal firearm? even if you support gun rights people should wonder if the situation in the US/Arizona isnt out of control...


I think its generally not a good idea to attempt psychiatric-diagnoses-by-remote-via-media-impressions...

But here specifically, I'm not sure what you're saying makes sense...


If you actually mean to say that he's a "paranoid schizophrenic" rather than a "paranoid schizoid" then I think thats actually unlikely: he is just too coherent. The guy is functioning in a community college, not on the street or in a mental institution, and his videos are weird they aren't incoherent or point to a deluded notion of reality (only of law and politics). Scizophrenic people on medication seem to be far more out there - he is presumably unmedicated (or it would be mentioned). Finally I think the fact that he was smart enough to claim fifth amendment protection and refuse to answer questions under police interrogation (which from the perspective of a criminal defense is always under every circumstance the correct thing to do) demonstrates that he is not only in touch with reality (thats not something you'd think a schizophrenic would do) but more astute than the average criminal suspect (most people talk in custody and everyone who talks in custody weakens their case even when innocent).


On the other hand if you mean that he has a paranoid personality disorder and a schizoid personality disorder...that might be a fair guess - but then - no one including the psychiatric community thinks that personality disorders are mental illnesses - they are more like obnoxious personality types, closer to who someone is than to what is wrong with someone. While "major mental illnesses" like schizophrenia are classified as "Axis I disorders" - personality disorders like paranoid personalities and schizoid personalities are classified as Axis II disorders and are not considered serious (or, perhaps "real") in the same way - they will not for example, get you an insanity defense or certain types of disability or vets benefits.

(paranoid schizoid means completely different, it is developmental position for children in Kleinian object-relations theory - I don't think you could possibly actually mean paranoid schizoid)

[Bud Struggle]

^^^^^And that's talking to a guy named "psycho". :D

[#FF0000]

i loathe the tea party and sarah palin and i think they are garbage, but i dont blame this on them. this guy was literally batshit fucking insane.

Maybe. I don't think it matters though and I still definitely think you can put some of the blame on Palin and people making little comments about "second amendment solutions". That sort of rhetoric being out there in the mainstream might be all someone needs to push them over the edge.

[Red Commissar]

I'm not sure how one can say the Communist Manifesto, Mein Kampf, and We the Living are all your favorite books with the radically different political positions they embody. His political views are really unorganized and inconsistent, and very stupid. He's scatterbrained.

I do think however we shouldn't ignore how trashed up political discourse has been in the past three years thanks to the Tea Party and other groups that encourage some rather stupid positions.

[Lobotomy]

Hitler? I thought they were saying he was a OMG OMG "communist"?

They are. Those on the far right have essentially been able to associate him with a truly bizarre mix of authoritarian communism, fascism, and Islam.
The fact that this shooter had Mein Kampf and the Communist Manifesto listed as his favorite books was probably just for shock value or something, but will unfortunately almost certainly be used to perpetuate this image.

[Dimentio]

Alright, then he is dead. He is going to be executed. Not that I am sad for it, but I think it would have been better to let him live with it.

I am most sad for the 9-year old girl. She wanted to become president so she could help people.

[Che a chara]

I cannot see any connections between BoyBlue and Jared Loughner. Neither do I believe that he donated money, simply because given his lifestyle I sincerely doubt that he got money.

oopsy, posted the wrong article. will try and fish out the correct one...

also, i see the right-wing propaganda machine kicking in on facebook. some pathetic saddo created a fake Jared Loughner profile and added Obama as his profile picture and his likes as communism, opposing the tea party and favourite people as Mao, Stalin, Che and Marx :lol: could it get any more obvious. anyway this person took screen grabs of the 'profile' and posted them around facebook saying that he took these before the profile was taken offline.

[The Man]

Another Glenn Beck idiot, I literally think Glenn should be held accountable, (not legally of coarse), when your on national TV, saying democrats are the next hitler and the world is going to collapse theres gonna at least a few idiots listening that believe you, and one will do something.

Hell, what would you do if you realized you could take out the next hitler and save the world.

This is when lies get dangerous.

I dislike Glenn Beck as much as the next guy, HOWEVER, This is getting ridiculous. Are you seriously holding Glenn Beck accountable for this shooting?

[Nolan]

So he is a nazi randroid communist constitutionalist? That makes about as much sense as his YouTube ramblings.

[Tablo]

I dislike Glenn Beck as much as the next guy, HOWEVER, This is getting ridiculous. Are you seriously holding Glenn Beck accountable for this shooting?
I would. Shouldn't we hold Hitler accountable for Nazis?

[#FF0000]

I dislike Glenn Beck as much as the next guy, HOWEVER, This is getting ridiculous. Are you seriously holding Glenn Beck accountable for this shooting?

Well, yeah I think people who peddle insane, end-times "they're out to get you and you're surrounded!" rhetoric talking about "taking our country back" and "second amendment solutions", I think they can be held partially responsible. This isn't just Glenn Beck and Sarah Palin, by the way.

And like I said I don't think it even matters if a guy does something like this because he loves Sarah Palin and thinks he should do whatever she says. People coming out with euphemisms about using violence and carrying guns openly to political rallies creates a hostile environment and that's all that some guy needs to snap.

[Havet]

Religious nutcases are on a rampage on youtube atheist videos claiming the guy who did the shooting must have been an atheist... :rolleyes:

[TheCultofAbeLincoln]

So he is a nazi randroid communist constitutionalist? That makes about as much sense as his YouTube ramblings.

I agree, I think people who are trying to 'pin down' his politics as this or that (usually so they can blame someone for this it seems) miss the point. It seems he was both extremely alienated and mentally unstable. There shouldn't be any overt action to try and link names to him, that will come on its own with the scope of the tragedy.

JFK got shot in dallas, must have been a John Bircher and certainly not a disillusioned red. George Wallace got shot and it must have been an angry black man, not someone who 'wanted to be in the history books.'

[Che a chara]

Bill O'Reilly's outburst on his 'O'Reilly factor' show about the liberal media making a political agenda out of the shooting and his hysterical ranting opposing liberal commentators saying that Fox's right-wing rhetoric being an influence on Jared seems rather hypocritical from bullshit Bill, as he too used the Virginia Tech Massacre in 2007 as a political stunt by having a go at rapper Nas and his lyrics about guns and because Nas had performed at an event in the aftermath for the students of Virgina Tech. (http://www.mtv.com/news/articles/1569047/nas-lashes-out-at-bill-oreilly.jhtml?rsspartner=rssMozilla)


During a recent airing of his Fox News show, "The O'Reilly Factor," the commentator blasted Nas' free concert for the students of Virginia Tech (see "Nas, John Mayer, Dave Matthews To Headline Free Concert At Virginia Tech") as an "abomination" and "atrocity." O'Reilly referred to Nas — or "Nazz," as the TV host pronounced it — as a "gangsta rapper" and said his lyrics are as "violent as they come," citing songs such as "Shoot 'Em Up," "One Mic," Ether" and "Made U Look" as his musical history of violence. (The show also displayed some of Nas' concert footage and videos, plus the scene where Jay-Z gets shot in the video for "99 Problems.") O'Reilly called Virginia Tech President Charles W. Steger "a villain" for allowing Nas to perform.


"He's a racist," Nas said. "Everybody has a marketing plan; his marketing plan is racism.

"He doesn't understand the younger generation. He deals with the past," Nas continued. "The people he represents are Republican, older, a generation that has nothing to do with the reality of what's happening now with my generation. ... He's not really on my radar. People like him are supposed to be taught and people like me are supposed to let n---as like him know. I don't take him serious. His sh-- is all about getting ratings or whatever. I wouldn't honor anything Bill O'Reilly has to say. It just shows you what bloodsuckers do: They abuse something like the Virginia Tech [tragedy] for show ratings. You can't talk to a person like that."