The ethics of using a bank?

[The American]

Is it inherently unethical to take out loans, invest, and start a checking/savings account with a bank and be an accomplice to the banks' highway robbery, or since we are forced into the system, it's ethically neutral to participate in a bank?
I have a checking account with Bank of America and I can't help but think that since I was complicit with the system of banking by starting the account, I was partly responsible for the collapse.
Also, what is your stance on banking?

[Broletariat]

Ask yourself this.

Does not banking help us get any closer to a classless stateless society?

Edit: This site needs a seconds counter, I need to know if these three posts were posted at the exact same time.

[Psy]

Is it inherently unethical to take out loans, invest, and start a checking/savings account with a bank and be an accomplice to the banks' highway robbery, or since we are forced into the system, it's ethically neutral to participate in a bank?
I have a checking account with Bank of America and I can't help but think that since I was complicit with the system of banking by starting the account, I was partly responsible for the collapse.
Also, what is your stance on banking?

Without banking idle capital would build up so there is nothing unethical about partaking in the banking system in itself.

[Political_Chucky]

Well unless you have billions or millions in the bank, your not helping really at all haha. If your considering trying to have a savings account, there are much better ways to collect interest then putting your money into a savings account at the bank. To get a better return on the interest you would collect from your savings, I've been told a mutual fund at a 10% interest is a much better idea, but then again I don't know tooo much about whats the best method.

[Sensible Socialist]

If you want to feel less "involved," move from a mega-bank to a smaller, regional or local bank.

[F9]

I am tired of ethics to be honest.If we would follow ethics completely, and on the right base and boycotting each and every thing/system/organization etc etc, that funds capitalism, oppress workers etc etc we would be forced back to caves.Is it a sad conclusion?Maybe, but its an important one even for the future of a possible revolution cause revolution wont and cant happen from caves, and cant happen with nothing.
There are just some things that you cant avoid, and banking system even if it is a shitty one its one of them.Without the banks, i couldnt get to study now, i wouldnt be able having my car to transport, i wouldnt be able to type here etc etc.Also if you find a way taking money from the system, especially the bank, good for you:) bad for them!
So no, dont worry about saving money, making loans etc, frankly everyone does it beside those who dont need money as they are rich or those who decided to live a "special life".

Fuserg9:star:

[Sixiang]

It seems almost impossible to escape it. I don't know about you, but I get my wages from my work through checks, which have to be deposited into my bank account. I don't get paid cash, so I have to use the bank. I'm sure most people are in the same boat. And I second what Fuserg9 said.

[The American]

It seems almost impossible to escape it. I don't know about you, but I get my wages from my work through checks, which have to be deposited into my bank account. I don't get paid cash, so I have to use the bank. I'm sure most people are in the same boat. And I second what Fuserg9 said.

I get paid with checks as well, but I once worked at a restaurant that employed illegal immigrants, and even though they got paid with checks they had them cashed at a check cashing company that charged a ridiculous premium because of the obvious restrictions from them having bank accounts

[NGNM85]

Is it inherently unethical to take out loans, invest, and start a checking/savings account with a bank and be an accomplice to the banks' highway robbery, or since we are forced into the system, it's ethically neutral to participate in a bank?
I have a checking account with Bank of America and I can't help but think that since I was complicit with the system of banking by starting the account, I was partly responsible for the collapse.
Also, what is your stance on banking?

It's (Generally.) much better than shoving cash under your mattress. We need to recognize this 'ethical consumption' stuff as simply a game we play with ourselves. if I really wanted to sever financial ties with things I find philosophically objectionable I would (First, and foremost.) stop paying taxes. Let's get real. Corporations make up about half of the 100 largest economies, if you do, or do not, shop at Wall Mart, or set up an account at Bank of America, is not going to make a significant difference, by itself.

[Jimmie Higgins]

Is it inherently unethical to take out loans, invest, and start a checking/savings account with a bank and be an accomplice to the banks' highway robbery, or since we are forced into the system, it's ethically neutral to participate in a bank?
I have a checking account with Bank of America and I can't help but think that since I was complicit with the system of banking by starting the account, I was partly responsible for the collapse.
Also, what is your stance on banking?

Accomplice? Unless you are really rich, you are a victim of banks. Bank of America apparently has a policy where people who keep less than $1,000 in their account have to pay a $8 service charge each month - for what? For the privilege of the banks holding your money while also gambling with it?!

The working class doesn't have much of a choice when it comes to joining a bank or not - unless you are a mid-level drug-dealer who moves in a lot of loose cash, working class people need to use a bank. You can't get an apartment very easily without one and for get about trying to have a house some day. Many people have to live paycheck to paycheck which means that small credit (credit cards) is necessary for most people in a society where a dental problem, a car accident, or a week-long illness might cost you the same as weeks worth of wages.

Don't feel responsible for what unaccountable bank bosses do with your cash - that cash all comes from our labor anyway and so by that logic every-time we go to work we are "accomplices" in our own exploitation, the destruction of the environment, wars for empire (after all, you work somplace that pays taxes which are then used to build armies in addition to the tax money you already pay) and so on. That's why we say we are against the whole rotten system - if the problem were just banks or just landlords or just certain military leaders, then we would just be against them. It's not, it's all a rotten way to organize society and so there's no getting away from the system until we build our own way of organizing society in our own working class interests.

[The American]

Bank of America apparently has a policy where people who keep less than $1,000 in their account have to pay a $8 service charge each month - for what? For the privilege of the banks holding your money while also gambling with it?!

When I started the account BOA gave me the option of having all my statements online and have no service charge or I get my statements mailed with an $8/mo service charge.

[Jimmie Higgins]

OK, I don't bank with BofA, but what I said is just based on recent news reports I was reading:
http://www.thestreet.com/story/10966687/1/bank-of-america-breaks-even-with-fees.html?cm_ven=GOOGLEN

But never the less, I have never felt it was a "privilege" to have a bank account - i have always felt more gouged than anything else. On top of that, the fact that banks were targeting minorities for loans the bank knew were poison for the recipient in the long-run, crazy credit-card penalties and so on that are aimed at poor people because the banks know they'll rake in the penalty-fees, and that when the banks are in debt, tax-money was given to them so they could then increase the speed at which they were foreclosing homes and calling in personal debt... banks are fucking crooked and we are not complicit in their profit-motives because we are basically forced to sign-up to operate in this society.

[FreeFocus]

I am tired of ethics to be honest.If we would follow ethics completely, and on the right base and boycotting each and every thing/system/organization etc etc, that funds capitalism, oppress workers etc etc we would be forced back to caves.Is it a sad conclusion?Maybe, but its an important one even for the future of a possible revolution cause revolution wont and cant happen from caves, and cant happen with nothing.
There are just some things that you cant avoid, and banking system even if it is a shitty one its one of them.Without the banks, i couldnt get to study now, i wouldnt be able having my car to transport, i wouldnt be able to type here etc etc.Also if you find a way taking money from the system, especially the bank, good for you:) bad for them!
So no, dont worry about saving money, making loans etc, frankly everyone does it beside those who dont need money as they are rich or those who decided to live a "special life".

Fuserg9:star:

Living in caves is one (meaningless) approach. There's also another solution to injustices and unethical behaviors produced by capitalism: it's called revolution!

I am happy that the OP is considering the status of ethics in a disgusting, capitalist society. There is nothing you can do to escape the system, and mass escapism doesn't change the system. You can smash it through revolution, and your ethical concerns should motivate you as you strive for socialism.

[NoOneIsIllegal]

Sign up for a Credit Union. They're much better.
- Non-profit
- Don't charge you for minor things
- Locally owned
- Decisions are voted upon by members rather than solely by top-officials

[The Garbage Disposal Unit]

It's more ethical to rob one!

Anyway, the conclusion is obvious: TOTAL AND IMMEDIATE WAR ON CAPITALIST SOCIETY IS THE ONLY ETHICAL ACTIVITY.

In the meantime, resign yrself to a savings account if you must, but only in preparation . . .

[The Idler]

What about mutual savings organisations like building societies?

[F9]

Living in caves is one (meaningless) approach. There's also another solution to injustices and unethical behaviors produced by capitalism: it's called revolution!



Is this a response to my post, or you just happened to quote me?Cause revolution as a "solution" was already added in my post.

[FreeFocus]

Is this a response to my post, or you just happened to quote me?Cause revolution as a "solution" was already added in my post.

Yes, because you said you were "tired of ethics." My point was that ethical concerns should just be channeled differently (towards revolution).

[Quail]

Is it inherently unethical to take out loans, invest, and start a checking/savings account with a bank and be an accomplice to the banks' highway robbery, or since we are forced into the system, it's ethically neutral to participate in a bank?
I have a checking account with Bank of America and I can't help but think that since I was complicit with the system of banking by starting the account, I was partly responsible for the collapse.
Also, what is your stance on banking?
If I didn't have a bank account, I wouldn't be able to get my student loans and go to university. I'm not sure about other things like benefits, but it makes life a hell of a lot simpler if you have a bank account, plus I wouldn't feel comfortable carrying my money around with me if I had to collect it from somewhere. Unfortunately pretty much everything you do supports capitalism, so unless you want to produce all your food, clothes, etc from scratch and completely sustain yourself, you're kind of supporting capitalism. Even if you did try to "opt-out" capitalism would still exist.

[Fawkes]

Is it inherently unethical

No, nothing is.

Join a credit union like NOII said, I lose a fraction of what I used to at my old bank to fees and other bullshit like that.

Chances are, you have to deposit your money into something if you have any hope of making a major purchase/contract, regularly depositing checks, or think it remotely likely your home may burn down or get robbed and your life's savings you had in that hole in your mattress is gone cause the FDIC won't cover your Tempurpedic Account.

[apawllo]

If you're a grown up, and participate in society in any way, you can't really survive without a bank account. You can try to get by on money orders to pay bills or something, but you'll eventually find some things that absolutely require you to have a bank account. It's the nature of the beast...

[revolution inaction]

there's nothing unethical about using a bank, its just unavoidable if you want to live a remotely normal life, and credit unions are not as practical and are still within the capitalist system, so there is no real point using one of them.
if you want to avoid banks because they are capitalist then you should also not not get a job, or live in a house or ware cloths or eat food, because at the moment they are all a part of capitalism

[Jimmie Higgins]

In the meantime, resign yrself to a savings account if you must, but only in preparation . . .

You can always get personalized checks with images of Greek or French protesters on them:lol:.

I wish I could afford personalized checks from my Bank JP Morgan Chase so I could have them put this image of JP Morgan on the checks:

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_473nrD5vEv8/THOiZzUXLpI/AAAAAAAAC1M/1sjP5_VLNOg/s1600/jp-morgan.jpg

[Cencus]

We live in a society where unless you are one of those who wants to live by dumpster diving, begging, shoplifting etc you are gonna need a bank account and loans, you aint gonna be able to avoid it.

Being a leftist isn't about living like a bum, it's about uplifting the working class not degenerating back to a medieval lifestyle

[The Garbage Disposal Unit]

there's nothing unethical about using a bank, its just unavoidable if you want to live a remotely normal life, and credit unions are not as practical and are still within the capitalist system, so there is no real point using one of them.
if you want to avoid banks because they are capitalist then you should also not not get a job, or live in a house or ware cloths or eat food, because at the moment they are all a part of capitalism

Just because something is immediately unavoidable within the context of capitalism doesn't make it ethical. We can accept, perhaps, the necessity of doing really fucked up things, but let's not deny that, in the final analysis, participating in banks is what it is.
As for living in a house, wearing clothes, and eating food, the trick is to take them outside the flow of commodities - to divert them to other ends.
Communism is, in practice, the most massive of thefts, the most daring of robberies: not just the stealing of this or that commodity, but the grand re-appropriation of everything.

[The Garbage Disposal Unit]

We live in a society where unless you are one of those who wants to live by dumpster diving, begging, shoplifting etc you are gonna need a bank account and loans, you aint gonna be able to avoid it.

Being a leftist isn't about living like a bum, it's about uplifting the working class not degenerating back to a medieval lifestyle

The trick is to expand beyond individual dumpster diving/begging/shoplifting, and expand them into forms of collective action and communization. If you can dumpster dive enough food to supply a besieged barricade or a tent city . . . if you can move from shoplifting a little bit to taking and redistributing the whole contents of stores or wharehouses . . .

[FreeFocus]

Just because something is immediately unavoidable within the context of capitalism doesn't make it ethical. We can accept, perhaps, the necessity of doing really fucked up things, but let's not deny that, in the final analysis, participating in banks is what it is.
As for living in a house, wearing clothes, and eating food, the trick is to take them outside the flow of commodities - to divert them to other ends.
Communism is, in practice, the most massive of thefts, the most daring of robberies: not just the stealing of this or that commodity, but the grand re-appropriation of everything.

Communism is not theft - it is taking back that which is stolen from you by capitalism.

[The Garbage Disposal Unit]

Communism is not theft - it is taking back that which is stolen from you by capitalism.

OK, rhetorically, yes, but what is its real right-fucking-now putting-into-practice?
If we "win" then, retroactively, yes, we will all be heroes who valiantly took back our everything from Mammon and Moloch, but, between now and then, we're almost certainly criminals.

[Frosty Weasel]

If we "win" then, retroactively, yes, we will all be heroes who valiantly took back our everything from Mammon and Moloch, but, between now and then, we're almost certainly criminals.Criminals in whose minds?

To the capitalists we're stealing their hard earned capital.
To the clergy we're stealing the souls of their people.

But to the workers we're bringing liberation.

[Billy2]

As would be expected, a lot of bank apologism and mitigation. Obviously the banks don't get too far without depositors.

Since taking all my money out of banks I can make a few observations:

- There is very little reason to fear your money being stolen, keep it in a fireproof box and tell no one.

- Interest is little and short-term inflation is too so you save on banking fees what pittance you may have earned on deposits. You will take a big 'loss' however if you were holding compound-interest bonds etc.

- You may need to keep an account for pay checks; deposit and then withdraw the whole amount as the bank will loan out your money they hold 20 times over to bribe people to kill, manufacture weapons, cut down the forests and all that. (Frankly I think eco-protest is already too late. Biodomes.)

- I've never had a problem paying any bill or even large purchase in cash.

- The biggest problem you will have is travel and transporting your money. If you take a plane or even bus company that searches passengers this this can be touchy.

[thesadmafioso]

This is the same sort of argument thrown against utilitarianism, since you cannot adhere to your ideology perfectly you are living unethically by its standards. And well you are not being a perfect leftist through using a bank and giving them access to additional capital, it is an unavoidable evil of participating in western society. As it is such a constant and unmovable factor, I hardly consider it to be unethical in any meaningful way outside of theoretical discussion. The practical demand of necessity trumps the theoretical desire for ideological purity.

[Billy2]

it is an unavoidable evil of participating in western society. As it is such a constant and unmovable factor,
But I'm just a normal person, and I'm living without banking... so...

Death and taxes are not inevitable. Well, death maybe. It's commonly believed, but actually, if you don't pay 'your' taxes: nothing happens. I know I know: 'I can't do it, it's impossible, it has to be like this, it's natural and necessary.' LOL. You can climb Mt. Everest!