Congresswoman Shot In Arizona,USA

[freepalestine]

Sat., January 8, 2011 1:15pm (EST)

Congresswoman Shot In Arizona
By NPR Staff
Updated: 15 seconds ago

U.S. Rep. Gabrielle Giffords of Arizona was shot outside a grocery store in Tucson while holding a public event, an eyewitness reported Saturday.

Giffords, who was re-elected to her third term in November, was hosting her first "Congress on Your Corner event at the Safeway in northwest Tucson when a gunman ran up and started shooting. At least five other people, including members of her staff, were hurt, according to Peter Michaels, news director of Arizona Public Media.

Giffords was transported to University Medical Center in Tucson. Her condition was not immediately known.

Michaels said Giffords was talking to a couple when the man ran up, firing indiscriminately, and then ran off. He was tackled by a bystander and presumably taken into custody. Copyright 2011 National Public Radio. To see more, visit http://www.npr.org/

http://www.gpb.org/news/2011/01/08/congresswoman-shot-in-arizona

[Sasha]

she was featured on an "crosshair map" sarah palin brought out recently, if it turns out the assasin was inspired by her the tea-party can expect to get an hugebackclash

[Comrade Wolfie's Very Nearly Banned Adventures]

Seems like the teabaggers insurrectionary retorhic has come back to bite them in the ass. If they are responsible, it'll most likely destroy them as a mainstream political party for years.

[Sasha]

she is dead, so are 6 others. 12 more are injured.
acording to the eyewitnes report on gawker he shot het first, straight through the head, then opend fire shooting a small kid among others until he ran out of ammo.
if he was an teabagger palin got a lot answer for:
http://cache.gawker.com/assets/images/comment/7/2011/01/b6a3c0f26cf64e761420163de49c23c9/340x.jpg

[~Spectre]

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_5RMSFKJ0rRc/S6wM7xkTikI/AAAAAAAADiQ/0tmciJLlRIU/s1600/Palin+ad+crosshairs.jpg

Either it will destroy their legitimacy, or it may start copy cats.

[FreeFocus]

I think it's reasonable to say that this wasn't a random crime. When I first saw the topic I thought she might have been involved with all the racist legislation in Arizona, but this appears to be a far-right attack here.

Realistically, a lot of these Tea Party-types already have guns, and the idiots think "their" country is being stolen, falling apart, etc. Amazingly, some of them think they have "nothing to lose." I wouldn't be surprised if there were copycat actions.

Let's see if the fucking media calls this a "terrorist attack." Dolts.

[KurtFF8]

If this was politically motivated, I think we would be entering a new area of reactionary violence in America. Let's hope that's not the case

[~Spectre]

Palin's political website: http://www.sarahpac.com/ is down.

I assume they're going to try to purge it of anything that could possibly hurt her more. It's too late. This wound can't be stitched up IMO.

[Sasha]

acording to the surgeon she is still alive but under surgery in an very critical situation

[Dimentio]

A shame really. I kinda hoped that Palin would be the Republican candidate. It could lead to a Sahlin effect.

Obama is less bad than the Republicans.

[Magón]

Well for one, she a "leftist" (in Rep./Tea Baggers eyes) who voted for Obama-care, second she lives in Fascist Arizona. The likelihood of if being politically motivated is more likely than just some maniac with a gun.

But who can say now?

[Sasha]

hopefully the assasin, he got arrested by bystanders
witnesses say it took 20 minutes for the sherif to show up, 30 for the first ambulance.

oh, and her tea-party opponent had this as his campaign:

Yeah, we shouldn't speculate, but it's worth noting that she won a close race against a guy who had target shooting campaign events to "target" Rep. Giffords.
http://img406.imageshack.us/img406/1294/aakelly048c.png
http://img156.imageshack.us/img156/3822/aakelly039c.jpg


sick country

[Dimentio]

Why are things like these seldom happening to murdering thugs? It is almost always the more innocent and sympathetic of them who are assassinated...

http://web.archive.org/web/20070422115300/http://www.giffordsforcongress.com/2005/09/19/guest-opinion-houstons-humble-haven-if-nothing-else-we-should-learn-from-tragedy/

[human strike]

Assassin? Wouldn't it be more appropriate to call them a terrorist?

[human strike]

http://www.facebook.com/note.php?note_id=485459383434

That was quick.

[Sasha]

Assassin? Wouldn't it be more appropriate to call them a terrorist?

technicaly if she was the primary target it was an assasination, terrorism would have been an random shooting to instil fear in the public

[Sasha]

http://www.facebook.com/note.php?note_id=485459383434

That was quick.

she was even quicker to take down her website and erase all mention of the victim.
the news hardly broke and palins website was down, its up now again but suprise suprise any mention of the victim has been erased.

[Magón]

http://www.facebook.com/note.php?note_id=485459383434

That was quick.

I like some of the comments people said. They're funny and entertaining. Particularly: "Don't retreat! Reload!" LMFAO, could you expect any less from a Rep./Tea Bagger?

[FreeFocus]

Assassin? Wouldn't it be more appropriate to call them a terrorist?

By the definition that Americans use (i.e., any act of political violence), then yeah. My definition of terrorism, what I think is the only type of meaningful definition, is killing civilians, so this wouldn't fit it.

[thesadmafioso]

Giffords was a target of violence during the health care vote — she had a brick thrown through her window.

Interesting that this was not the first instance of right wing violence in the state, I think it clearly shows a progression in the level of violence which the Tea Party and other extremist right wing groups have been breeding.

Quite tragic though, I only hope it backfires on the right and that this sort of thing doesn't become more common place.

Source: http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0111/47244.html#ixzz1ATchKKDI

[human strike]

technicaly if she was the primary target it was an assasination, terrorism would have been an random shooting to instil fear in the public

"[An] act of terrorism, means any activity that (A) involves a violent act or an act dangerous to human life that is a violation of the criminal laws of the United States or any State, or that would be a criminal violation if committed within the jurisdiction of the United States or of any State; and (B) appears to be intended (i) to intimidate or coerce a civilian population; (ii) to influence the policy of a government by intimidation or coercion; or (iii) to affect the conduct of a government by assassination or kidnapping."
(United States Code Congressional and Administrative News, 98th Congress, Second Session, 1984, Oct. 19, volume 2; par. 3077, 98 STAT. 2707 [West Publishing Co., 1984])



Seems to fit to me.

[Sasha]

ah, thats not how you would use it in dutch, semantics anyway

[human strike]

Yeah the word is used in a lot of different ways and I don't mean to push the point. But do you think there would be any hesitation from the establishment to call it terrorism if the gunman were a Muslim?

[FreeFocus]

"[An] act of terrorism, means any activity that (A) involves a violent act or an act dangerous to human life that is a violation of the criminal laws of the United States or any State, or that would be a criminal violation if committed within the jurisdiction of the United States or of any State; and (B) appears to be intended (i) to intimidate or coerce a civilian population; (ii) to influence the policy of a government by intimidation or coercion; or (iii) to affect the conduct of a government by assassination or kidnapping."
(United States Code Congressional and Administrative News, 98th Congress, Second Session, 1984, Oct. 19, volume 2; par. 3077, 98 STAT. 2707 [West Publishing Co., 1984])

Seems to fit to me.

It fits the state's criteria, but should the Left be using their definition, knowing that it criminalizes the resistance of the oppressed? I mean, factory occupiers could be considered "terrorists" using that definition.


Yeah the word is used in a lot of different ways and I don't mean to push the point. But do you think there would be any hesitation from the establishment to call it terrorism if the gunman were a Muslim?

Of course not, they would jump on it and use it as an example of "Islam taking over America" and "homegrown terrorism" :rolleyes:

[Magón]

Well by that facebook page, people are saying it's "south of the border" hit. Of course, these people are already whack jobs, completely separate from their whacked out political mindset.



Fuckin' Mexicans...

[human strike]

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/21134540/vp/36033690#36033690

Gifford a few months ago. Skip to 2:00.

[The Fighting_Crusnik]

God... these people are fucking crazy... Seriously, the fucking teabagging nut jobs won the election... but apparently that wasn't enough... so now, we get to see them go forth and murder those that disagree with them... If this is the case, then the transition from populist to fascist is beginning to take place within the tea party movement...

[Sasha]

did you see the first reply on palins facebook blaming pelosi? utternutcases

[ÑóẊîöʼn]

As soon as I saw the thread title, I knew the Tea Party would not be far away. I'd bet the rent money that the shooter was a Tea Party nutcase. These are the sort of people who bring firearms to a town hall meeting, act in an intimidating manner and somehow think that's acceptable.

[Magón]

God... these people are fucking crazy... Seriously, the fucking teabagging nut jobs won the election... but apparently that wasn't enough... so now, we get to see them go forth and murder those that disagree with them... If this is the case, then the transition from populist to fascist is beginning to take place within the tea party movement...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Night_of_Long_Knives

Closest thing I could think of off hand.

[Martin Blank]

As soon as I saw the thread title, I knew the Tea Party would not be far away. I'd bet the rent money that the shooter was a Tea Party nutcase. These are the sort of people who bring firearms to a town hall meeting, act in an intimidating manner and somehow think that's acceptable.

It can't be! The Tea Party is going to die out! They're harmless nutcases! This is still a shiny happy bourgeois democracy! There's nothing to see here!

:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

[FreeFocus]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Night_of_Long_Knives

Closest thing I could think of off hand.

To be fair, it's just one person so far, not 80+. I'm one of the people who considers Tea Partiers and other Republican elements at least proto-fascist, so I'm not entirely casting off the possibility of more of these actions. Still, doesn't fascism come off the back of a failed revolution? There was no such thing in the US.

[Magón]

To be fair, it's just one person so far, not 80+. I'm one of the people who considers Tea Partiers and other Republican elements at least proto-fascist, so I'm not entirely casting off the possibility of more of these actions. Still, doesn't fascism come off the back of a failed revolution? There was no such thing in the US.

Well she wasn't the only person shot, parts of her political staff apparently were too. I only compared the two because The People's Penguin reminded me of Night of the Long Knives when he said that.

[Sosa]

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/21134540/vp/36033690#36033690

Gifford a few months ago. Skip to 2:00.

What is it about? I'm on my phone so the vid doesn't work

[Pirate Utopian]

What is it about? I'm on my phone so the vid doesn't work
Giffords about threats she got from rightwingers because of her support for healthcare reform.

[human strike]

What is it about? I'm on my phone so the vid doesn't work

It's Gifford talking about Palin's crosshairs map. She says "people have got to realise that there are consequences to that action".

[Martin Blank]

What is it about? I'm on my phone so the vid doesn't work

Giffords' offices in Tuscon were targeted during the health care debate last year. She and other Democrats had received numerous death threats, and the glass door of her office was shattered by an unknown assailant. This is in addition to being on Palin's hit list.

[The Fighting_Crusnik]

I'm seriously wondering what will happen next... On Fox News, which is what my dad had on TV :closedeyes: they were trying to pin it on "illegals."

[human strike]

Federal authorities identify the gunman as Jared Laughner of Arizona, born September 1988.

[Martin Blank]

The would-be assassin's name is Jared Laughner, 22, from Arizona. According to Keith Olbermann's Twitter feed, Giffords is out of surgery and alive.

[Sasha]

I am standing in the aisle at Costco when I found out my Congresswomen, Gabrielle Giffords, has been shot dead up on the north side.
While I’m scrambling with my phone, two couples in front of me are talking about it and suddenly I hear one of the women say, “Well, that’s to be expected when you’re so liberal.”
And the other woman says, “Ohh, so we get to appoint a Republican?”



Her father Spencer Giffords, 75, was rushing to the hospital when asked if his 40-year-old daughter had any enemies. "Yeah," he told The New York Post. "The whole tea party."

http://andrewsullivan.theatlantic.com/the_daily_dish/2011/01/murder-in-arizona-live-blogging.html

[Martin Blank]

According to some news reports, Laughner had accomplices and was known for his far-right views.

[Sasha]

on an earlier event like the one she was shot at:



Representative Gabrielle Giffords, an Arizona Democrat, was not actually holding a town hall when her gun incident occurred. She was conducting a “Congress on Your Corner” at the Douglas Safeway — a simple event where people line up to get help with things like Social Security or documentation. But the health care protests have spread way beyond actual meetings about health care, and a handful of irritated conservatives have been following Giffords around almost everywhere.
“When you represent a district — the home of the O.K. Corral and Tombstone, the town too tough to die, nothing’s a surprise,” she told a reporter later, showing a commendable ability to respond to any crisis by throwing in a plug for local tourist attractions. Rudy Ruiz, the father of one of Giffords’s college interns, saw the gun hit the floor. “It was an older gentleman, 65 or so. Basically, he was one of the ones holding up a banner saying ‘Don’t Tread on Me,’ ” said Ruiz. “He bent over, and it fell out of the holster is what it did. It bounced. That concerned me. I just thought what would happen if it had gone off? Could my daughter have gotten hurt?”

[human strike]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nHoaZaLbqB4

Is this the wacko?

[revolution inaction]

the bbc says 1 child has died.

[The Fighting_Crusnik]

According to the news, the surgeon is optimistic about her. So hopefully, she'll make it through the surgery and be able to live her life as she did prior to this. :)

[A Revolutionary Tool]

the bbc says 1 child has died.
Yeah reports keep saying a 9-year old was killed. A shame really.

[A Revolutionary Tool]

According to the news, the surgeon is optimistic about her. So hopefully, she'll make it through the surgery and be able to live her life as she did prior to this. :)
She was shot in the head, I seriously doubt this.

[Q]

Yeah reports keep saying a 9-year old was killed. A shame really.

This is going to add to the backlash.

Bye Palin.

[human strike]

http://www.youtube.com/user/Classitup10

Profile


Name:
Jared Lee Loughner

Channel Views:
271

Joined:
25 October 2010

Website:
http://myspace.com/fallenasleep

About Me:

My name is Jared Lee Loughner!
Hometown:
Tucson

Country:
United States

University/College/School:
I attended school: Thornydale elementary,Tortolita Middle School, Mountain View Highschool, Northwest Aztec Middle College, and Pima Community College.

Interests:
My favorite interest was reading, and I studied grammar. Conscience dreams were a great study in college!

Films:
(*My idiom: I could coin the moment!*)

Music:
Pass me the strings!

Books:
I had favorite books: Animal Farm, Brave New World, The Wizard Of OZ, Aesop Fables, The Odyssey, Alice Adventures Into Wonderland, Fahrenheit 451, Peter Pan, To Kill A Mockingbird, We The Living, Phantom Toll Booth, One Flew Over The Cuckoo's Nest, Pulp,Through The Looking Glass, The Communist Manifesto, Siddhartha, The Old Man And The Sea, Gulliver's Travels, Mein Kampf, The Republic, and Meno.

[ed miliband]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nHoaZaLbqB4

Is this the wacko?


What the fuck is that all about?

Mental.

[FreeFocus]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nHoaZaLbqB4
Is this the wacko?

Pretty trippy video. But that user's profile says this:


I had favorite books: Animal Farm, Brave New World, The Wizard Of OZ, Aesop Fables, The Odyssey, Alice Adventures Into Wonderland, Fahrenheit 451, Peter Pan, To Kill A Mockingbird, We The Living, Phantom Toll Booth, One Flew Over The Cuckoo's Nest, Pulp,Through The Looking Glass, The Communist Manifesto, Siddhartha, The Old Man And The Sea, Gulliver's Travels, Mein Kampf, The Republic, and Meno.

wait, wut? But I don't know. If that's his page, some of his language can be interpreted as him expecting to die, he even wrote about terrorism in that video.

[The Fighting_Crusnik]

She was shot in the head, I seriously doubt this.

The chances are pretty low... but it doesn't hurt to hope.

[Robocommie]

Yeah the word is used in a lot of different ways and I don't mean to push the point. But do you think there would be any hesitation from the establishment to call it terrorism if the gunman were a Muslim?

Well, remember the Ft. Hood shooting? One man, going psycho with a gun, but because he was Muslim, people were pushing for it to be called terrorism.

[Comrade Wolfie's Very Nearly Banned Adventures]

From his videos on Youtube (which are now gone), this seems politically motivated, and by the right.The Tea Party has claimed its first victim in its 'revolution'.

[~Spectre]

Even if she lives, if she really was shot at point blank range, she's probably not going to make a full recovery. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phineas_Gage

[ed miliband]

His list of favourite books is utterly bizarre - the CM + We The Living + Mein Kampf. WTF?

[human strike]

From his videos on Youtube (which are now gone), this seems politically motivated, and by the right.The Tea Party has claimed its first victim in its 'revolution'.

Videos are still there for me, but I've downloaded the main crazy ones anyway.

[Dimentio]

http://www.youtube.com/user/Classitup10#p/a/u/1/nHoaZaLbqB4

Here's his youtube page.

[Pretty Flaco]

I don't think this will usher in a time filled with more politically motivated attacks. If she was targeted for her platform on health care reform, then a slight martyr status might be given to her and we'll start to see the republicans push themselves as far away as possible from the tea party.

Tea party funding from republicans was the air for their movement and they just asphyxiated themselves with this.

[Political_Chucky]

Soon your going to hear that he was a nazi, or a communist.

[human strike]

http://www.youtube.com/user/Classitup10#p/a/u/1/nHoaZaLbqB4

Here's his youtube page.

Interesting how he describes himself in the past tense.

[FreeFocus]

From a Yahoo article about the shooting (http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/us_congresswoman_shot):


Despite the animosity she has generated from the right, Giffords describes herself as a former Republican and current Blue Dog Democrat.

"You know, actually as a former Republican, you know, I consider myself someone who is pretty in the middle, I'm a blue dog Democrat, and one that is interested in making sure that our country maintains our prosperity and frankly, our superiority over other countries and that's where we look at these threat, obviously our defense budget, our level of education," she said in an interview with Fox News Channel this week.
Capitol police responded to the shooting by advising lawmakers and their staff to "take reasonable and prudent precautions regarding their personal security."

[Dimentio]

Sad, the boy seems intelligent.

[Salyut]

Soon your going to hear that he was a nazi, or a communist.

I'm already seeing people suggesting he was a evil commie.

[~Spectre]

I don't think this will usher in a time filled with more politically motivated attacks. If she was targeted for her platform on health care reform, then a slight martyr status might be given to her and we'll start to see the republicans push themselves as far away as possible from the tea party.

Tea party funding from republicans was the air for their movement and they just asphyxiated themselves with this.

Oh for sure these people are now politically dead. I'm worried about the extra curricular activities they will carry out.

The FBI is more than capable of smashing them, but it's what damage may happen in the interim that is troubling.

[human strike]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3L1lsLU-kUw

That's a pretty strange video he's made there to say the least...

[Rusty Shackleford]

Compile a list of political violence since Nov. 4th. 2008? (of what i could remember)

Tides Foundation would-be gunman
Fed Employee strung up in Kentucky
Discovery Channel Primitivist

[The Fighting_Crusnik]

Don't forget the mail bombs along with that. Overall, these people have shown the true face of their political movement. Let us hope that the government crushes them and holds their founders responsible for these actions.

[Futility Personified]

The fellow who flew a plane into an IRS building

[Diello]

Even if she lives, if she really was shot at point blank range, she's probably not going to make a full recovery. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phineas_Gage

Or, rather: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rudi_Dutschke#Shooting_and_later_life

[FreeFocus]

Don't forget the mail bombs along with that. Overall, these people have shown the true face of their political movement. Let us hope that the government crushes them and holds their founders responsible for these actions.

Some of them are the government. Moreover, who will hold the government responsible for its infinitely worse actions?

[The Fighting_Crusnik]

Some of them are the government. Moreover, who will hold the government responsible for its infinitely worse actions?

Hopefully the world will and hopefully it's very own citizens will too.

[Nanatsu Yoru]

I have two fears about this. The first is that the ignorant rightwingers will see the Communist Manifesto and Mein Kampf and think 'leftist.' The mainstream media will jump on to this and the Tea Party's role in it will be totally forgotten. If that doesn't go down, my second fear is people will just call this apolitical. Time will tell, but I really hope this goes the way it should.

[Diello]

I have two fears about this. The first is that the ignorant rightwingers will see the Communist Manifesto and Mein Kampf and think 'leftist.' The mainstream media will jump on to this and the Tea Party's role in it will be totally forgotten. If that doesn't go down, my second fear is people will just call this apolitical. Time will tell, but I really hope this goes the way it should.

Given that he's still alive, hopefully he'll make his motives clear. If he'd been killed, I would consider it a virtual certainty that the journalistic establishment would take his YouTube profile and his MySpace page and stage on-air shouting matches about how to interpret this detail or that detail for the next few months, and then forget about it.

[The Fighting_Crusnik]

Given that he's still alive, hopefully he'll make his motives clear. If he'd been killed, I would consider it a virtual certainty that the journalistic establishment would take his YouTube profile and his MySpace page and stage on-air shouting matches about how to interpret this detail or that detail for the next few months, and then forget about it.

This is true. Unless actions are taken to shut him up, he'll probably very clear and concise with his actions especially during the trials that will be coming up. HOWEVER, there is one way that this could back fire. We know that he is a staunch right winger... but if he pretends to be a leftist, then the media might just believe him even if all of the evidence speaks otherwise...

[cb9's_unity]

Yah, the mention of the Communist Manifesto probably just gave the tea party (and more specifically Palin) a complete pass.

It doesn't matter what the ideology of the guy was at all. The Tea Party has been using ridiculously incendiary rhetoric. If they put cross-hairs on a congressman, while saying that the democrats are radicals who are going to radically transform and destroy the country, somebody is going to fire.

[Diello]

This is true. Unless actions are taken to shut him up, he'll probably very clear and concise with his actions especially during the trials that will be coming up. HOWEVER, there is one way that this could back fire. We know that he is a staunch right winger... but if he pretends to be a leftist, then the media might just believe him even if all of the evidence speaks otherwise...

Having seen one of his videos, I think that my hoping that he would express his motives clearly may have been a tad premature.

[Martin Blank]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nHoaZaLbqB4

Is this the wacko?

Yes. That's him.

[The Fighting_Crusnik]

Overall, I think the next couple of weeks if not months are going to be unpredictable... If this action of violence triggers copy cats and if it does indeed initiate a stream of violence and hate, then maybe we should take a little more precaution than usual...

[Martin Blank]

My question is whether someone can rip these videos from Youtube and confirm that they have been around for longer than a day or two.

Honestly, something is beginning to stink about all this.

[Sosa]

Yah, the mention of the Communist Manifesto probably just gave the tea party (and more specifically Palin) a complete pass.

It doesn't matter what the ideology of the guy was at all. The Tea Party has been using ridiculously incendiary rhetoric. If they put cross-hairs on a congressman, while saying that the democrats are radicals who are going to radically transform and destroy the country, somebody is going to fire.

Not necessarily. He shot a democrat, who is just as good as a Marxist if you believe tea party rhetoric. Had he shot a republican then they might have a pass.

[Rusty Shackleford]

i can rip them. im not going to re-upload them though. i dont want any association with them on my youtube profile.

the oldest one has been around for a month. the other 2, for 3 weeks.

[Diello]

Not necessarily. He shot a democrat, who is just as good as a Marxist if you believe tea party rhetoric. Had he shot a republican then they might have a pass.

I think it's unlikely that the Tea Party will escape blame entirely, but there are a few scraps of evidence which I'm sure righties will find adequate to exonerate the Tea Party-types in their own minds: the Communist Manifesto on his YouTube page, "I will not trust in God!" and so forth.

[Rusty Shackleford]

probably another joseph slack.

remember how the "slack manifesto" had some leftish rhetoric mixed with anti-tax rhetoric?

[cb9's_unity]

Not necessarily. He shot a democrat, who is just as good as a Marxist if you believe tea party rhetoric. Had he shot a republican then they might have a pass.

The conservatives will be able to say it wasn't one of them who did it so it wasn't their rhetoric who caused it. This way the mainstream media won't be able to give the tea party the blame they deserve.

[The Fighting_Crusnik]

My hope is that this will cause a lot of people throughout the land to wake up and see things as they truly are. Then maybe will we see movements and groups like the tea party die out.

[human strike]

Is it really that easy to ignore the Ayn Rand book he also lists?

[Diello]

My hope is that this will cause a lot of people throughout the land to wake up and see things as they truly are. Then maybe will we see movements and groups like the tea party die out.

I think that's quite unlikely, but it would be nice if I were wrong.

[Martin Blank]

i can rip them. im not going to re-upload them though. i dont want any association with them on my youtube profile.

I think that's the right move. I would recommend that no one re-upload, link or forward these videos.


the oldest one has been around for a month. the other 2, for 3 weeks.

Is that was Youtube's site says, or is that from the coding embedded in the video itself?

[Rusty Shackleford]

I think that's the right move. I would recommend that no one re-upload, link or forward these videos.



Is that was Youtube's site says, or is that from the coding embedded in the video itself?
oh i dont know actually.

how would i check that?

the videos only took about 10 seconds each to download if you wanted to.

[revolution inaction]

Is that was Youtube's site says, or is that from the coding embedded in the video itself?

thats what the youtube site says, i haven't tried to download them, but i would assume youtube knows when they where uploaded.

[gestalt]

Sad, the boy seems intelligent.

Did we read and watch the same inane ramblings?

There is always speculation in the early aftermath, but we may be premature in assigning this action to Tea Party motivations just as the knee-jerk reactionaries are in calling him a "leftist" because of the Orwell and Marx nods in his supposed reading list. Obviously the culture of violence and "Second Amendment solutions" rest squarely on their shoulders and may have precipitated this attack. But like Joseph Stack and many within the Tea Party, the cognitive dissonance and false consciousness in this young man's politics seems to be evident. This is the confusion that capitalism sustains itself upon.

[Rusty Shackleford]

Fox News just said something. looks like they consciously omitted Ayn Rands book.


The first bolded part, though, shows very clearly his economic views. very libertarian like.

Jared Loughner, the 22-year-old man who sources identify to Fox News as the gunman in custody in the deadly shooting rampage Saturday in Arizona, is suspected of posting a series of YouTube videos that show a focus on literacy and currency -- as well as his distrust in the government.
"Hello, my name is Jared Lee Loughner," one of the videos says, in words appearing on the screen. "This video is my introduction to you! My favorite activity is conscience dreaming; the greatest inspiration for my political business information. Some of you don't dream - sadly."
The video, posted Dec. 15, later turns more political.
"The majority of citizens in the united states of America have never read the united states of America's constitution. You don't have to accept the federalist laws," the video's titles say. "In conclusion, reading the second United States constitution, I can't trust the current government because of the ratifications: the government is implying mind control and brainwash on the people by controlling grammar. No! I won't pay debt with a currency that's not backed by gold and silver! No! I won't trust in god!"
Arizona Rep. Gabrielle Giffords was among the people critically wounded in the shooting at a public event in Tucson, and several people were killed, including a federal judge and a 9-year-old boy.


Officials have said little publicly about the suspect in custody, but law enforcement sources who asked to remain anonymous identify him as Loughner.
Loughner's page on YouTube lists Tucson as his hometown. He also said he attended Northwest Aztec College and Pima County Community College. And in one of the videos, he says he is a military recruit.
He lists reading under interests, as well as "conscience dreams," and among his favorite books are "Mein Kampf," the "Communist Manifesto," "Animal Farm" and "Brave New World."
In a comment posted on MySpace three months ago in connection with a video about Pima Community College, Loughner wrote: "Hello, I know you’re illiterate! This is the greatest protest for exposure into a wrongful act. The school is breaking the constitution. If you watch the video then you’ll understand. The teachers are taking advantage of you in the first and Fifth Amendment. The United States Constitution, which is the law, can be broken at this school. Thank you and goodnight! Jared"
His last writing on his MySpace page was "Goodbye friends."


Read more: http://www.foxnews.com/us/2011/01/08/shooting-suspects-apparent-youtube-video/#ixzz1AUMIxujM

[BogdanV]

Soon your going to hear that he was a nazi, or a communist.

Matter of factly, I already did xD.
Well, the reporter didn't say it explicitly, but she was stressing that the guy read the "The Manifest of the Communists" as she called it. No mentioning of Mein Kampf here; wonder why :closedeyes:

[Kotze]

From http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nHoaZaLbqB4:

If you call me a terrorist then the argument to call me a terrorist is Ad hominem.
You call me a terrorist.
Thus, the argument to call me a terrorist is Ad hominem.

[Some other deep thoughts omitted here because I frankly can't be arsed.]

In conclusion, reading the second United States Constitution, I can't trust the current government because of the ratifications: The government is implying mind control and brainwash on the people by controlling grammar.

No! I won't pay debt with a currency that is not backed by gold and silver!

EDIT: ATTN ANYBODY WITH A BLOG/TWITTER/ETC: Make a post with the title AYN RAND FAN MURDERS 9-NEW OLD.

[The Fighting_Crusnik]

This is all so fucking pathetic... people need to look at this for what it is: an act of terrorism against a woman and those around her, a politician who stood up for what she believed in... And now the media along with a large portion of people are now trying to cover up the facts because of their refusal to view the facts as they truly are... And then what people are saying about this, primarily the tea partiers is making me want to vomit more... fuck, on the fox news comments, people were more worried about their 2nd amendment rights being limited than more nutjobs like this man coming up and hurting more people. :cursing:

[Tablo]

I'm more concerned about the bystanders than the politician..

[Os Cangaceiros]

Fed Employee strung up in Kentucky

That was a hoax. The man committed suicide and tried to make it look like murder so that his family would get an insurance pay-out.

[TwoSevensClash]

I'm more concerned about the bystanders than the politician..
Yeah i'm more pissed about the dead 9 year old

[TwoSevensClash]

I'm also pretty sure there gonna go for the death penalty for him.

[Political_Chucky]

I'm more concerned about the bystanders than the politician..

It just a sad thing in my opinion. I don't think anyone deserved this at all.

[LibertyOrMartyrdom]

Corporate news has a way of twisting the truth, I'm sure they will try and blame this on the "damn liberals" somehow. Sarah Palin has a lot to answer for... What do you expect to happen when you rile up a bunch of fringe (on the fringe of sanity as well) fanatics by telling them that they are being stolen from by the party in power (in reality its the plutocrats that are in control, regardless of the party) and putting target signs on the representatives of this party? While encouraging these people to exercise their second amendment right everywhere they go. A recipe for disaster. Manipulation of the undereducated proletariat population must be tricky for them, being the ones responsible for this lack of education in the first place, they've created a volatile situation.

[Tablo]

It just a sad thing in my opinion. I don't think anyone deserved this at all.
Except some Nazis. I would be laughing if it happened to them.. does that make me a bad person?

[Political_Chucky]

Except some Nazis. I would be laughing if it happened to them.. does that make me a bad person?

Well just makes you unsympathetical to a nazis. No one involved here was deserving of this act though is what I meant.

[BogdanV]

Weird.. if the guy shot her at point-blank range, why on earth would he start emptying his gun on the crowd ? Makes no sense, unless he's seriously derranged, plus, he might've had a chance to save himself from being sentenced to death.

Not much people'll bother about this event; it'll probably go unnoticed in the long-run.

[Quetzal]

I heard something on the belgian news about a journalist and gay-rights activist who was found murdered in a hotel in New York today?

Can anyone confirm this?

[Dimentio]

Well, the killing of a 9-year old boy was totally un-called for. Wonder why he started to shoot the bystanders. Probably he panicked.

Just sad. Though, Tea Party could not be entirely blamed. The guy seems to be paranoid, and he would possibly explode later anyway, just in some other way.

[Diello]

I'm also pretty sure there gonna go for the death penalty for him.

If he's anywhere near as incoherent and deranged in person as he is in his writing, I wouldn't be surprised if he successfully plead insanity.

[Os Cangaceiros]

It's really hard to successfully plead insanity in the court system. That said, he might have a fair shot at it, as he didn't really do anything to conceal his crimes (i.e. knew that his actions were wrong in the eyes of society)...he just started shooting.

[Das war einmal]

This guy sounds more like a fruitcake then being serious about politics. Meanwhile, guess the next reaction of asshole's like Glenn Beck, I guess it would be somewhat similar as this: http://www.youtube.com/v/cMwZ76QB7uk&fmt=37&hd=1&autoplay=1&version=3&rel=0&showsearch=0&showinfo=0&iv_load_policy=3&feature=player_embedded

[Red Commissar]

I think the media will be able to construe him as a "far left" loony despite his actions and rather scatterbrained choice in literature. Though I think the speculations of a Tea Party influence were premature. If anything it's an indication of the times and conditions this nutty society is creating, much like Joe Stack's case.

[Rusty Shackleford]

Here you go.

a tweet which will now be used by pundits to prove he was a left-winger
http://www.theblaze.com/stories/report-giffords-gunman-left-wing-quite-liberal/


glenn becks very own 'news' website.

[Sasha]

I think the media will be able to construe him as a "far left" loony despite his actions and rather scatterbrained choice in literature. Though I think the speculations of a Tea Party influence were premature. If anything it's an indication of the times and conditions this nutty society is creating, much like Joe Stack's case.


dont know, i think critism like these will stick, at least for the next week or two:


'm not saying that putting a bullseye (http://www.talksy.com/83221/the-palin-website-with-a-bullseye-over-gabrielle-gifford-s-district-is-down-now) on Arizona Democrat Rep. Gabrielle Giffords' congressional race - as Sarah Palin did - was an explicit or intentional invitation to violence. Nor am I saying that the "Get on Target for Victory (http://www.dailykos.com/story/2011/1/8/934293/-Rep.-Gabrielle-Giffords-shot-in-Arizona)" events held by the guy Giffords beat - "Help remove Gabrielle Giffords from office Shoot a fully automatic M16 with Jesse Kelly" - was the reason her assassin went after her. This tragedy is still unfolding, and the questions of motive and incitement will be argued about for a long time to come. But I am saying that the "lock and load"/"take up your arms" (http://www.syracuse.com/have-you-heard/index.ssf/2010/03/sarah_palin_steps_up_the_rheto.html) rhetoric of American politics isn't just an overheated metaphor. For years, the language of sports has dominated political journalism, and discourse about hardball and the horserace and the rest of the macho athletic lexicon has been a factor in the trivialization of our public sphere. This has helped dumb down democracy, making a serious national discussion about anything important too wonky for words.
The "second amendment solution (http://crooksandliars.com/karoli/sharron-angles-solution-broken-congress-arm)," though, does something worse than make politics a branch of entertainment. It makes it a blood sport. I know politics ain't beanbag. But words have consequences, rhetoric shapes reality, and much as we like to believe that we are creatures of reason, there is something about our species' limbic system and lizard brainstems that makes us susceptible to irrational fantasies.
If you're worried that violent video games may make kids prone to bad behavior; if you think that mysogenic and homophobic rap lyrics are dangerous to society; if you believe that a nipple in a Superbowl halftime show is a threat to our moral fabric - then surely you should also fear that the way public and media figures have framed political participation with shooting gallery imagery is just as potentially lethal.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/marty-kaplan/gabrielle-giffords-shooting_b_806232.html

[S.Artesian]

technicaly if she was the primary target it was an assasination, terrorism would have been an random shooting to instil fear in the public

No, terrorism would have been to do exactly what he did. Shoot to kill his main target, and anybody else who might get in his way, for the purpose of making an "example" of the victim.

The assassination of Medgar Evers in Mississippi was terrorism.

[gestalt]

“...we cannot allow the hard left to do what it tried to do in 1995 after the Oklahoma City bombing,” he said.

Correctly assess McVeigh as a rightist, and white nationalist/militia movement sympathizer?

Stunning that they have already forgotten Jim David Adkisson, perpetrator of the 2008 Unitarian Universalist church shooting, as well.


"Know this if nothing else: This was a hate crime. I hate the damn left-wing liberals. There is a vast left-wing conspiracy in this country & these liberals are working together to attack every decent & honorable institution in the nation, trying to turn this country into a communist state. Shame on them....

This was a symbolic killing. Who I wanted to kill was every Democrat in the Senate & House, the 100 people in Bernard Goldberg's book. I'd like to kill everyone in the mainstream media. But I know those people were inaccessible to me. I couldn't get to the generals & high ranking officers of the Marxist movement so I went after the foot soldiers, the chickenshit liberals that vote in these traitorous people. Someone had to get the ball rolling. I volunteered. I hope others do the same. It's the only way we can rid America of this cancerous pestilence.

I thought I'd do something good for this Country Kill Democrats 'til the cops kill me....Liberals are a pest like termites. Millions of them Each little bite contributes to the downfall of this great nation. The only way we can rid ourselves of this evil is to kill them in the streets. Kill them where they gather. I'd like to encourage other like minded people to do what I've done. If life aint worth living anymore don't just kill yourself. do something for your Country before you go. Go Kill Liberals."

[S.Artesian]

Oh for sure these people are now politically dead. I'm worried about the extra curricular activities they will carry out.

The FBI is more than capable of smashing them, but it's what damage may happen in the interim that is troubling.

That's a bit optimistic, no? If economic conditions gave prominence and financial backing to these wacked out white scumbags, those same economic conditions, and financial backing, will resurrect them. And believe me, in the US there is no shortage of wacked out white scumbags eager and willing to shoot unarmed women and children. Never underestimate the vicious pettiness of the US electorate.

As for the FBI-- the FBI may be capable but it is certainly not interested in curbing these scumbags. How long had the FBI been in the US South when the KKK, the White Citizens Council, etc were performing their lynchings and assaults?

This is not going to destroy Palin or the tea-baggers-- no more than their threats to take out licenses to go "Obama-hunting" has led to any arrests.

[FreeFocus]

That's a bit optimistic, no? If economic conditions gave prominence and financial backing to these wacked out white scumbags, those same economic conditions, and financial backing, will resurrect them. And believe me, in the US there is no shortage of wacked out white scumbags eager and willing to shoot unarmed women and children. Never underestimate the vicious pettiness of the US electorate.

As for the FBI-- the FBI may be capable but it is certainly not interested in curbing these scumbags. How long had the FBI been in the US South when the KKK, the White Citizens Council, etc were performing their lynchings and assaults?

This is not going to destroy Palin or the tea-baggers-- no more than their threats to take out licenses to go "Obama-hunting" has led to any arrests.

I agree, but the FBI will be used to suppress this, to some extent, because they targeted an elected official. The FBI in Jim Crow South took ages to get things done and were somewhat ineffective because it was brown people getting lynched and assaulted.

[S.Artesian]

I agree, but the FBI will be used to suppress this, to some extent, because they targeted an elected official. The FBI in Jim Crow South took ages to get things done and were somewhat ineffective because it was brown people getting lynched and assaulted.

They aren't going to suppress anything; just like they haven't suppressed the right-wing militias, the Aryanists, etc.

[28350]

What effect will this have on American politics and public opinion, and how will the media contain this?

Bold - it's for cool people :cool:

[Jimmie Higgins]

Personally, I think this individual, if we are looking at individual motivations, was an alienated nut - all his quotes the press has reported seem like maybe he was clinically depressed with schizophrenic-like symptoms. One report said he seemed like a normal person until he got alcohol poisoning at college and then became more introverted and withdrawn.

The reports I've read from MSNBC said that his his high school friend called him "beyond liberal" and far "left-wing" and he had actually met this politician before at some rally. Reports like that along with this:



Books:
I had favorite books: Animal Farm, Brave New World, The Wizard Of OZ, Aesop Fables, The Odyssey, Alice Adventures Into Wonderland, Fahrenheit 451, Peter Pan, To Kill A Mockingbird, We The Living, Phantom Toll Booth, One Flew Over The Cuckoo's Nest, Pulp,Through The Looking Glass, The Communist Manifesto, Siddhartha, The Old Man And The Sea, Gulliver's Travels, Mein Kampf, The Republic, and Meno.

Will mean that the right-wing will try and avoid talking about how they constantly fan the flames of right-wing vigilantism against immigrants, their supporters, and pro-health-care politicians. They will deny their fear-mongering leads to acts like this and others and will instead try and paint him as a leftist: conflating conspiracy theories with the left and trying to make Marx and Hitler seem like two sides of the same leftist coin.:rolleyes:

Again, from what I've seen, this seems to be more of a crazy act by an alienated loner with somewhat paranoid logic about creating his own currency and so on. This is not a clear case of political terrorism from the right-wing like: the guy that was in a shoot-out with cops and tried to assassinate ACLU members because that's what he thought Glenn Beck wanted him to do - the people who attack abortion clinics and doctors, the minuteman supporter who tortured Latinos - Tim McVeigh.

[Nothing Human Is Alien]

I heard something on the belgian news about a journalist and gay-rights activist who was found murdered in a hotel in New York today?

Can anyone confirm this?

Not related.

Man Held in Times Sq. Hotel Killing

"A 20-year-old man was taken into custody a day after the bludgeoned body of a prominent Portuguese journalist was found in a blood-spattered room at the InterContinental Hotel in Times Square, law enforcement officials said.

"...Mr. De Castro, who was born in Angola when it was a Portuguese colony, had written articles and books about fashion and the nature of celebrity and was an advocate of gay rights. He had checked into the hotel with Mr. Seabra, a model from Portugal, about 10 days ago, the officials said."

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/01/09/nyregion/09murder.html

[CleverTitle]

I was happy to see that the SPLC rep on MSNBC was quick to identify him as a right winger, rather than jumping on the Communist Manifesto bit.

The most depressing thing about this is the 9 year old. Infuriating and depressing.

[Martin Blank]

Personally, I think this individual, if we are looking at individual motivations, was an alienated nut - all his quotes the press has reported seem like maybe he was clinically depressed with schizophrenic-like symptoms. One report said he seemed like a normal person until he got alcohol poisoning at college and then became more introverted and withdrawn.

The Pima County Sheriff said in his press conference a few hours ago that they were pursuing a second suspect in the case -- probably the driver of the getaway car for Loughner.


The reports I've read from MSNBC said that his his high school friend called him "beyond liberal" and far "left-wing" and he had actually met this politician before at some rally.

The woman who's been posting on Twitter, which is the source of these statements, hasn't had contact with him since 2007. You know as well as I do that someone can do a political 180 in that time. Plus, if you sift through the statements in the videos, many of the points he makes are right out of the Tea Party handbook (bimetallism, Tenth Amendment, strict Constitutionalism -- even the ramblings about brainwashing through language control are common among the "Patriot"/militia wing of the Tea Party).


Reports like that along with this:...

Will mean that the right-wing will try and avoid talking about how they constantly fan the flames of right-wing vigilantism against immigrants, their supporters, and pro-health-care politicians. They will deny their fear-mongering leads to acts like this and others and will instead try and paint him as a leftist: conflating conspiracy theories with the left and trying to make Marx and Hitler seem like two sides of the same leftist coin.:rolleyes:

The sheriff, interestingly enough, killed that meme before it took off, by pointing the finger at Fox News and rightwing talk radio in his press conference, and saying their rhetoric was responsible in part for creating the atmosphere in which Loughner did his deed. It's going to be a little difficult for Glenn Beck to claim the kid was a "communist" when the section of the capitalist state responsible for the criminal investigation is looking at him as being responsible for fanning the flames.


Again, from what I've seen, this seems to be more of a crazy act by an alienated loner with somewhat paranoid logic about creating his own currency and so on. This is not a clear case of political terrorism from the right-wing like: the guy that was in a shoot-out with cops and tried to assassinate ACLU members because that's what he thought Glenn Beck wanted him to do - the people who attack abortion clinics and doctors, the minuteman supporter who tortured Latinos - Tim McVeigh.

Admittedly, the situation is still developing, but the turns in the case so far are leading to the conclusion that this was an attempted political assassination. Sadly, something like this was to be expected. Giffords was one of two Democrats on Palin's hit list to survive the last midterms, and the other guy, from West Virginia, is in an otherwise deep blue district. I was thinking it would be more like what's happened already -- vandalism and harassment, only with the ante slightly upped -- but I expected something to happen to her. The contradictions affected by the Nativists just got that much sharper.

[CleverTitle]

I'm not sure if this has been posted, but here's a bit of info on the 9 year old girl that was shot, if anyone is interested: Link (http://globalgrind.com/channel/news/content/1899875/she-has-a-name-christina-taylor-greene-9-yr-old-killed-in-tucson-massacre-born-on-91101-photos/)

[Tablo]

I'm not sure if this has been posted, but here's a bit of info on the 9 year old girl that was shot, if anyone is interested: Link (http://globalgrind.com/channel/news/content/1899875/she-has-a-name-christina-taylor-greene-9-yr-old-killed-in-tucson-massacre-born-on-91101-photos/)

Thanks for the info.

Unfortunately reading it just makes me upset. Seeing random deaths and statistics in the news doesn't mean much, but when that person gets a face it means a lot more to me.

[apawllo]

I find it somewhat ironic that the judge killed was a conservative who apparently fought the Brady Act.

[FreeFocus]

They aren't going to suppress anything; just like they haven't suppressed the right-wing militias, the Aryanists, etc.

It's not like they're ignoring those groups though. They do track them, and they occasionally confront and arrest them when they engage in militant actions. Here's an ADL page on it (http://www.adl.org/learn/ext_us/militia_m.asp?xpicked=4&item=19). And correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't there a story back in like 2009 where some people got arrested in either the Midwest or West and their website was taken down? This was a right-wing militia I'm talking about.

I'm not saying they're going to stomp them out, but the government in power doesn't have any interests in anti-government right-wingers killing government officials, trying to destabilize it or send messages to people. When the right-wingers are killing working class people, people who aren't associated with government and business, especially when they're brown, the government won't really intervene because it's not considered a major issue or threat.

[Tablo]

The FBI do target radical right-wing groups on occasion. As much as we do not like the ruling elites, they themselves are not largely fascists and neither are the ruling political tendencies.

[costello1977]

The FBI do target radical right-wing groups on occasion. As much as we do not like the ruling elites, they themselves are not largely fascists and neither are the ruling political tendencies.

I thought that a lot of these groups were heavily infiltrated by the Government for covert counter revolutionary policies?

I know that so called "liberal" governments in Europe have employed this tactic for many years, for example in the Basque Country.

[Amphictyonis]

A shame really. I kinda hoped that Palin would be the Republican candidate. It could lead to a Sahlin effect.

Obama is less bad than the Republicans.
No he's not :) Obama single handedly marginalized the left. Thats more dangerous than any republican I know. Skip record, repeat mantra. If you play an Ozzy record backwards it says Obama is the suck.

[Tablo]

I thought that a lot of these groups were heavily infiltrated by the Government for covert counter revolutionary policies?

I know that so called "liberal" governments in Europe have employed this tactic for many years, for example in the Basque Country.
I know the groups are infiltrated, but that is to keep an eye on them from what I understand.

[Red Commissar]

The sheriff, interestingly enough, killed that meme before it took off, by pointing the finger at Fox News and rightwing talk radio in his press conference, and saying their rhetoric was responsible in part for creating the atmosphere in which Loughner did his deed. It's going to be a little difficult for Glenn Beck to claim the kid was a "communist" when the section of the capitalist state responsible for the criminal investigation is looking at him as being responsible for fanning the flames.


Could you provide a quote? That's quite interesting.

[Jimmie Higgins]

The sheriff, interestingly enough, killed that meme before it took off, by pointing the finger at Fox News and rightwing talk radio in his press conference, and saying their rhetoric was responsible in part for creating the atmosphere in which Loughner did his deed. It's going to be a little difficult for Glenn Beck to claim the kid was a "communist" when the section of the capitalist state responsible for the criminal investigation is looking at him as being responsible for fanning the flames.That's good, I hope it happens. But considering a guy shot police in Oakland and was trying to assassinate ACLU members and SAID his motivation is what he learned on Glenn Beck's show, I don't think much will come out of this one event unless it just becomes the straw that breaks the camel's back. Of course, maybe it will be since it wasn't an ACORN or ACLU do-gooder intern that got targeted this time.


Admittedly, the situation is still developing, but the turns in the case so far are leading to the conclusion that this was an attempted political assassination. Sadly, something like this was to be expected. Giffords was one of two Democrats on Palin's hit list to survive the last midterms, and the other guy, from West Virginia, is in an otherwise deep blue district. I was thinking it would be more like what's happened already -- vandalism and harassment, only with the ante slightly upped -- but I expected something to happen to her. The contradictions affected by the Nativists just got that much sharper.

I totally agree with all this and if my inclination at this point is to see this as more immediately motivated by social alienation or emotional problems than clear-cut politics, it's because I think the general hysteria the right is whipping up to create the sense of a social base for really vile pro-corporate policies is the more important point. Since this guy's political motivation is murky at best at this point, I think focusing on this one guy is wrong and will only corral a larger debate into debates about what's right or left-wing.

The important parts of the debate for the left IMO are:

A) why is the right-wing of the establishment (mainly through FOX but also through top-down billionaire-backed front-groups like AFP) fearmongering, scapegoating immigrants, public workers, and even groups like ACORN

B) that this atmosphere of scapgoating and fearmongering is not abstract debate and punditry, but at a time of crisis are actually going to cause domestic-right-wing-terrorism, a rise in fascist or organized white supremacist groups

C) that right-wing domestic terrorists are downplayed while the US creates fear of Islamic terrorists (often just dupes that the FBI has entrapped) and cracks down on civil liberties exposing that repression really is political in the interests of what our rulers want, not what actually makes the population safer in any way.

D) that the Democrats are not willing to effectively counter these "street-level" vigilantes with anything other than legal measures (often which then are just used against the poor anyway, like expanding the federal death penalty after Tim McVeigh) because organizing a real opposition would activate the kinds of left-wing forces which the Democrats (to be fair, the whole establishment) want to feel powerless (youth, poor, minorities, undocumented immigrants).

On this last point, while Obama denounces this act in a vapid sort of way, when his administration (actually this started under Bush) said that their might be an increase in right-wing violence and a rise in hate-groups, the right-wing attacked this Bush-era study on Obama's partisanship and implied that it was the administration's "hatred of white people and conservatives". Around the same time, Rachel Maddow reported that a Neo-Nazi who bragged about having WMDs and wanted to kill the president - actually had depleted uranium and it was only discovered by the police because of a random accident.

The Democrats won't do too much about this kind of stuff for the same reason that the right-wing of the establishment flirts with it - walks up to the line and winks at the KKK and Militias. The establishment needs to clear the table for what might be a decade of cuts and austerity and long-term high unemployment (at least this is what they are anticipating give or take 5 years). A divided and scared population is one that won't be able to mount an effective opposition to an aggressive class-war assault from the top. Fringe nuts help remind regular Americans not to hope for much - either they are led to believe that humans are just shitty and ignorant or just certain red-states are shitty and ignorant, but either way, the problem is that racism and hatred are too ingraned in "the people" not that the people are all under assult while profits and bonuses for billionaires have multiplied.

[Nolan]

His YouTube videos are just word salad.

[The Fighting_Crusnik]

From what they were saying, this guy isn't talking... but on Keith Olbermann, they identified many of the things listed in his youtube videos as being beliefs of the extreme right here in the US....

[Martin Blank]

Could you provide a quote? That's quite interesting.

Check the MSNBC website for the video of the press conference held by the Pima County Sheriff. It should be up by now.

[Jimmie Higgins]

Could you provide a quote? That's quite interesting.

This was in the LA Times: actually pretty good for a Sheriff - I wonder if he has a personal beef with Sheriff Joe "Il Duce" Arpiro (SP?):lol:


"When you look at unbalanced people, how they respond to the vitriol that comes out of certain mouths about tearing down the government, the anger, the hatred, the bigotry … it is getting to be outrageous. And unfortunately, Arizona, I think, has become sort of the capital. We have become the mecca for prejudice and bigotry," he said.

[scourge007]

This asshole was clearly a psycho and that's all. RIP to the victims and their kin.

[Diello]

while Obama denounces this act in a vapid sort of way,

Urgh, tell me about it. "This is a terrible, senseless tragedy... my heart goes out to all those affected..." It's all so obligatory.


This asshole was clearly a psycho and that's all. RIP to the victims and their kin.

You're seriously denying that this act could have any connection to the greater social situation in the U.S.?

[Martin Blank]

That's good, I hope it happens. But considering a guy shot police in Oakland and was trying to assassinate ACLU members and SAID his motivation is what he learned on Glenn Beck's show, I don't think much will come out of this one event unless it just becomes the straw that breaks the camel's back. Of course, maybe it will be since it wasn't an ACORN or ACLU do-gooder intern that got targeted this time.

I tend to think so. It's one thing when it's some relatively anonymous liberal activist, but it's entirely another to kill a member of one of America's more exclusive clubs for the ruling classes (Congress).


I totally agree with all this and if my inclination at this point is to see this as more immediately motivated by social alienation or emotional problems than clear-cut politics, it's because I think the general hysteria the right is whipping up to create the sense of a social base for really vile pro-corporate policies is the more important point. Since this guy's political motivation is murky at best at this point, I think focusing on this one guy is wrong and will only corral a larger debate into debates about what's right or left-wing.

I see Loughner is a symptom of a larger problem developing in society today. In that sense, I agree about not focusing exclusively on him. At the same time, I do think there is more focus to the points themselves than people are absorbing. I went through the text of his videos (someone put them in a single text file on another forum), and I did find themes that were very much in line with the Rand/Paul (that's Ayn Rand/Ron & Rand Paul) wing of the Tea Party Nativists.


The important parts of the debate for the left IMO are:...

Those are good questions. But what behooves me is that it is only now that these issues are really being raised among the "left". I was talking to someone else earlier today about the effects of the McKinley assassination by a self-described anarchist on the "left" of that time. Perhaps this, too, will end up being a "McKinley moment", where the bulk of the movement are prompted to finally wake up to a certain reality and move in a unified way. We'll see, I guess.

[Diello]

I tend to think so. It's one thing when it's some relatively anonymous liberal activist, but it's entirely another to kill a member of one of America's more exclusive clubs for the ruling classes (Congress).

As I seem to recall it, only a very few congresspeople have been killed while in office, Leo Ryan (Jonestown) having been the first.

[S.Artesian]

All this shows is that the established, official thugs and goons sometimes lose control of the unofficial thugs and goons they spawn, finance, succor, abet.

Who cares what the FBI does or doesn't do? Or what McCain denounces? Or if Boehner breaks down in tears?

McCain doesn't give a fuck, neither does Boehner-- remember the violence after the passage of the healthcare act? The attack on John Lewis? The attempt to blow up the home belonging to the brother of a Democrat congressman? Remember that Boehner and his drinking buddies did not denounce that violence, but rather urged people to put it into "constructive" acts?

Let's not kid ourselves-- death squads are difficult to control, collateral damage and all that. Doesn't stop the bourgeoisie from arming, organizing, and deploying them.

So no, Fox News isn't going to be contrite-- on the contrary it's going to be even more vicious-- and will try to make itself the victim here-- as the conspiracy by the liberals might include making a martyr of one of their own in order to besmirch real Americans like Beck.

And Palin isn't going to be any less Palinesque; and the teaparty isn't going to change a bit.

That conversation in the Arizona supermarket? That's what Fox News, Palin, etc. know is going on right now. That's their audience. And the more than occasional lunatic with a gun, killing on occasion a member of that ruling class, a child?

Well, like the fundamentalists in Pakistan said about the assassination of that governor-- "He brought it upon himself," that's what our American jihadists will be saying, are already saying.

[scourge007]

Urgh, tell me about it. "This is a terrible, senseless tragedy... my heart goes out to all those affected..." It's all so obligatory.



You're seriously denying that this act could have any connection to the greater social situation in the U.S.?
No I'm not , but at the end of the day this guy was a ticking time bomb waiting to go off. Also remember that a 9 year old girl was killed today just because she wanted to see how our , corrupt , government worked. I'm pissed off about the social and political landscape of America myself , but I'm not going to kill off a bunch of people because of my feelings either. Sometimes politics don't matter.

[Tablo]

No I'm not , but at the end of the day this guy was a ticking time bomb waiting to go off. Also remember that a 9 year old girl was killed today just because she wanted to see how our , corrupt , government worked. I'm pissed off about the social and political landscape of America myself , but I'm not going to kill off a bunch of people because of my feelings either. Sometimes politics don't matter.
Politics always matter when every aspect of our existence is determined by them.

[scourge007]

Politics always matter when every aspect of our existence is determined by them.
So it doesn't matter that a kid was killed today either because I think that's a little more important ? If you're going to do battle for your beliefs , then grow a pair and leave children out of it.

[Tablo]

So it doesn't matter that a kid was killed today either because I think that's a little more important ? If you're going to do battle for your beliefs , then grow a pair and leave children out of it.
You obviously misunderstand. It is a problem that a child was killed. And my politics reject random acts of violence. I'm just saying your belief that politics don't always matter is wrong.

Why the fuck would I NOT care about an innocent child dying??

[scourge007]

You obviously misunderstand. It is a problem that a child was killed. And my politics reject random acts of violence. I'm just saying your belief that politics don't always matter is wrong.

Why the fuck would I NOT care about an innocent child dying??
I'm just saying in this case politics don't matter when the innocent die. He could've been a comrade like one of us or a goose stepping nazi , but the political beliefs wouldn't matter at the end of the day. From what we know of this piece of shit he was a psycho with books on the extreme edges of both sides.

[Tablo]

I'm just saying in this case politics don't matter when the innocent die. He could've been a comrade like one of us or a goose stepping nazi , but the political beliefs wouldn't matter at the end of the day.
I think I'm misunderstanding how you are relating politics to this event.

[Diello]

You obviously misunderstand. It is a problem that a child was killed. And my politics reject random acts of violence. I'm just saying your belief that politics don't always matter is wrong.

Why the fuck would I NOT care about an innocent child dying??

Thanks for carrying on my side of the argument and saving me the work.

[scourge007]

I think I'm misunderstanding how you are relating politics to this event.
I'm trying to say that anything could've set this guy off and not just something he saw in a blog. He's obviously mentally unstable. It shows more about how we treat the mentally ill in this country than anything else.

[Delenda Carthago]

Is there a demo going to be called against the fascist violence of tea party?

[Rocky Rococo]

Somebody with a "Nazbol" style ideology would read both the Manifesto and Mein Kampf, wouldn't they?

[Tablo]

Somebody with a "Nazbol" style ideology would read both the Manifesto and Mein Kampf, wouldn't they?
True, but I don't think there are any Nazbols in the US. I think it is an ideology unique to Russia and probably some other former Soviet nations.

[Rocky Rococo]

True, but I don't think there are any Nazbols in the US. I think it is an ideology unique to Russia and probably some other former Soviet nations.


Yes, organizationally it's more or less confined to Russia. But what I'm wondering is if Nazbol is something, as an ideology rather than an organization, a movement, that will spread globally in the 21 st century with our increasingly anonymized, corporatized, bureaucratic corporate state privatized prison house societies on the one hand and an atomized, alienated, disorganized, and ideologically ignorant and confused populace on the other.

[Tablo]

Yes, organizationally it's more or less confined to Russia. But what I'm wondering is if Nazbol is something, as an ideology rather than an organization, a movement, that will spread globally in the 21 st century with our increasingly anonymized, corporatized, bureaucratic corporate state privatized prison house societies on the one hand and an atomized, alienated, disorganized, and ideologically ignorant and confused populace on the other.
It's possible.There does seem to be a lot of wacky fascist tendencies.

[ed miliband]

Second man:

http://kold.images.worldnow.com/images/13810298_BG1.jpg

[Martin Blank]

True, but I don't think there are any Nazbols in the US. I think it is an ideology unique to Russia and probably some other former Soviet nations.

Actually, there is a Nazbol group in the U.S. I won't post the link, though. Just put the formal name into Google and it will show up.

But actually, I'm beginning to wonder if the NSM might be behind this. They are big in the area, especially after their pal in the Arizona state legislature, Pierce, was able to get the "papers, please" law passed.

[Dimentio]

Everyone knows that Mrs Gifford is a a blue dog democrat, and as such she was hated by the radical socialists within her own party, rats like Barnie Frank, Harry Read, Obama, Van Jones, etc.

I am sure the socialists and the communists are behind this tragedy, they planned this murder to distract the public of the state of the economy, to eliminate someone they consider too moderate and to blame Sarah Palin and the Tea Party.
But the truth will prevail.
Ahhhh, is the poor little tea partier hurt that the "lib-turds" spoiled his fun?

hold on, let me call you a WAAAAAAmbulance...

I just come on here because its like watching a train wreck. Scroll down a few pages and you'll see a dumba$$ that though George Orwell was a Communist. You can't find that level of dovchebeggery anywhere else!

LOLZ
Ayers on the cover of a national magazine standing on an American flag--now that's HATE. Thirty-plus years of teaching @nti-American hatred in US Universities. Only afte the left finally owns up what it has done and has been trying to do to the US will any of the idiotic anti-Palin/FOX/Beck/Limbaugh rants on this page even have a chance of being taken seriously. Palin for President in 2012.

Read more: http://www.foxnews.com/us/2011/01/08/shooting-suspects-apparent-youtube-video/#ixzz1AXGismu3






I thought the book " Animal Farm " was something akin to raising domesticated animals and growing corn.... but upon further research, it was actually a book by George Orwell, who was a DEMOCRATIC SOCIALIST, and published in England on 17 August 1945. The book reflects events leading up to and during the Stalin era before World War II.

so there you have it. Just another democrat left wing nut there to mess it all up for the rest of us.....

Read more: http://www.foxnews.com/us/2011/01/08/shooting-suspects-apparent-youtube-video/#ixzz1AXHW4wUw





Generic Fox News comments on comment page.

[Pavlov's House Party]

I think the media will be able to construe him as a "far left" loony despite his actions and rather scatterbrained choice in literature. Though I think the speculations of a Tea Party influence were premature. If anything it's an indication of the times and conditions this nutty society is creating, much like Joe Stack's case.

So far in Canada the national news station only refer to him as a "fan of Adolf Hitler" or something along those lines, and have not mentioned any left wing stuff. I suppose the American media has more to lose admitting he's a right wing nutter than ours. It's actually very unsettling that the media in the USA has the purpose of disseminating political propaganda first with actual information an afterthought; for example FOX news is basically a station devoted to attacking enemies of the Republican party and American political right wing. I can't think of a similar comparison in Canada except for topics such as Quebec sovereignty and the occupation of Afghanistan.

[chegitz guevara]

The Tea Party is obsessed with proving that Naziism and socialism are the same thing, so it's hardly surprising that they would have two books defining both movements. I know one Tea Party guy (actually an acquaintance of mine) who has quoted Engels at me. They are constantly telling each other to read the Manifesto to show how it proves the U.S. is socialist.

Clearly this person had a psychotic break. I strongly suspect he's suffering from schizophrenia. But, inside an atmosphere of hate, and division and exhortations to violence, if it wasn't this guy and this Congresswoman (who is a supporter of the occupations in Palestine, Iraq, and Afghanistan, btw), it would be another pair of people.

This is a tactic of the far right. They don't have to actually pull the trigger. They don't even have to say, "Go kill person X." They give coded messages, just vague enough for plausible deniability, but which everyone knows what they mean, and wait for some crazy person to decide to carry out their wishes. It happens again and again and again.

Right, politics had nothing to do with this. :rolleyes:

BTW, the judge was on a hit list himself. He allowed a multimillion dollar lawsuit by undocumented immigrants to go forward against some rancher.

[727Goon]

Honestly I think yall a reading too much into it, maybe the tea party fascists were involved to some extent but it seems that this guy was just crazy as fuck, it seems that this is more of a Columbine type thing than anything.

[Sasha]

like i just said in the OI thread:


"psychopaths" (i would say that this guy is far more likely to be an paranoid schizoid) and their actions dont exist in an vacuum.
two very legitemate questions do need answers and the US politicians and society need to take an long hard look at themself to answer them;
1- while maybe not intentional does the "dont retreat, reload" "gunsight maps" "2nd amendment solutions" etc etc insurectionary rethoric that palin etc are spouting to court the lunatic fringe inspire and bolster the bat shit insane luntatic fringe of the lunatic fringe? no matter how much Wiliam Pierce claimed "the turner diaries" where an work of fiction no one from us would claim he wasnt partly responisble for Timothy McVeighs actions, incitement is incitement, also if that incitement leads to actions the inciter doesnt agree with.

2- how the hell can an paranoid schizoid get hold of an legal firearm? even if you support gun rights people should wonder if the situation in the US/Arizona isnt out of control...

[Welshy]

I've been following this on the news, and it turns out that the Shooter is suspect to have ties to anti-immigration and anti-Semitic group.


Jared Lee Loughner, the alleged shooter of Rep. Gabrielle Giffords and others on Saturday, may have ties to anti-Semitic, anti-immigration hate group American Renaissance, according to a leaked memo from the Department of Homeland Security.

Unfortunately because I'm new I can't post links, but just check Huffington Post and the article will be on there.

[Admiral Swagmeister G-Funk]

An article acknowledging Loughner's right wing inclinations. To be honest, this whole affair can't be good for the right wing in America, although I'm sure that Glenn Beck's lot will manage to twist it some how.


Jared Lee Loughner: erratic, disturbed and prone to rightwing rants

Loughner echoes concerns of Tea Party movement in videos that reveal fears about government brainwashing



http://static.guim.co.uk/sys-images/Guardian/Pix/pictures/2011/1/9/1294594914332/Jared-Lee-Loughner-in-Mar-007.jpg Jared Lee Loughner pictured in March 2010 at the Tucson Festival of Books. Photograph: Mamta Popat/AP Jared Lee Loughner, the 22-year-old resident of Tucson identified by police as the gunman in Saturday's rampage, left a series of indications revealing the mentally unstable state of his mind and the extreme rightwing causes he supported in the run up to the tragedy.
Just hours before he embarked on the shooting, he posted a message on his MySpace page saying: "Goodbye friends. Dear friends, please don't be mad at me." He also posted a YouTube video of written slides called My Final Thoughts. In it, he wrote: "Jared Loughner is in need of sleep."
In a series of videos, he gave a rambling account of obsessions and paranoias that appeared to be troubling him with increasing intensity up to the catastrophe. They included references to conscious dreaming, or "conscience dreaming" as he called it, a process of directing one's own dreams that he is thought to have practised. Another was a belief in the gold and silver standard of currency – a favourite topic of the rightwing of American politics that is regularly propounded by the Fox News commentator Glenn Beck.
The tone of Loughner's rantings is almost exclusively conservative and anti-government, with echoes of the populist campaigning of the Tea Party movement (http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/tea-party-movement). "Don't trust the government listener!" he said in one video, accusing Washington of mind control and brainwashing.
The US constitution, the bible of the Tea Parties, features heavily, as does the suggestion that the federal government is acting against the text. "You don't have to accept the federalist laws. Read the United States (http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/usa) of America constitution to apprehend all of the current treasonous laws."
There is also a strong streak of implicit violence in the postings.
He linked to his favourite video, America: Your Last Memory in a Terrorist Country, which shows a ghostly figure burning the US flag in the desert to a heavy metal song that repeatedly chants "Let the bodies hit the floor!"
He referred to people calling him a terrorist and wrote "a terrorist is a person who employs terror or terrorism, especially as a political weapon."
Until 4 October, Loughner was a student at Pima community college in Tucson, but he was suspended after a number of inappropriate acts.
The college said he had five contacts with the campus police for having disrupted classrooms and the library. In a YouTube video posted on 29 September, Loughner accused the college of fraud and of being illegal under the US constitution.
After Loughner quit the college, the institution made clear that, if he wished to return, he would have to undergo a mental health check to ensure that his presence did not "present a danger to himself or others".
Fellow students at Pima told local newspapers that he had displayed troubled behaviour. He was reported to be isolated and withdrawn and used to laugh out loud in the poetry class in a way that made others feel uneasy.
"He disrupted class frequently with nonsensical outbursts," Lynda Sorenson, who shared his mathematics class last year, told the Arizona Daily Star.
He lived with his parents on the northwest side of Tucson, a few miles away from the shooting scene. His difficulties began relatively early, with one incident recorded by police of a drug violation while he was at high school. He tried to enlist in the US military in Tucson but was turned away for unspecified reasons.
Arizona prides itself on its loose gun laws but there is still shock that a man with such a prolonged history of erratic and disturbing outbursts was able to legally acquire the gun he used in his rampage. The shootings were carried out with a Glock 19 semiautomatic, with a magazine of 30 bullets.

[Sasha]

its here: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/01/09/jared-loughner-youtube-videos-_n_806370.html

[mattb62]

with 727 goon.

Let's not try to play this as politics. The guy liked Mein Kampf and the Community Manifesto? Is that rational? No. Is a mass shooting of innocent people rational? No.

[southernmissfan]

with 727 goon.

Let's not try to play this as politics. The guy liked Mein Kampf and the Community Manifesto? Is that rational? No. Is a mass shooting of innocent people rational? No.

We aren't denying that the guy almost certainly had a mental illness. But it IS political. Why? 1) The fact that a mentally ill person can buy a firearm is political. 2) The fact that the far-right appeals to the paranoid, lunatic fringe is political. I think the reference to the Hal Turner Diaries earlier is a good example. These people spew paranoia and violent rhetoric and it is no surprise that people are influenced by it (especially those with mental problems).

[Antifa94]

An acquaintance of his stated that he seemed "very liberal, quite leftwing". Based upon the views he has expressed ( abortion is a terrorist act, don't listen to the federal government, Obama is brainwashing) he is clearly RIGHTwing. The acquaintance misinterpreted his rightwing "libertarianism" and anti-government rhetoric as leftwing when it is clearly rooted in paranoid tea party rantings.

[Tablo]

An acquaintance of his stated that he seemed "very liberal, quite leftwing". Based upon the views he has expressed ( abortion is a terrorist act, don't listen to the federal government, Obama is brainwashing) he is clearly RIGHTwing. The acquaintance misinterpreted his rightwing "libertarianism" and anti-government rhetoric as leftwing when it is clearly rooted in paranoid tea party rantings.
Also this "friend" apparently hasn't had contact with him since 2007. It is all just a move to distance him from the tea-party movement.

[southernmissfan]

An acquaintance of his stated that he seemed "very liberal, quite leftwing". Based upon the views he has expressed ( abortion is a terrorist act, don't listen to the federal government, Obama is brainwashing) he is clearly RIGHTwing. The acquaintance misinterpreted his rightwing "libertarianism" and anti-government rhetoric as leftwing when it is clearly rooted in paranoid tea party rantings.

I believe the "acquaintance" was someone who hadn't talked to him since high school.

EDIT: Tsukae (http://www.revleft.com/vb/member.php?u=23468) beat me to it

[Sasha]

An acquaintance of his stated that he seemed "very liberal, quite leftwing". Based upon the views he has expressed ( abortion is a terrorist act, don't listen to the federal government, Obama is brainwashing) he is clearly RIGHTwing. The acquaintance misinterpreted his rightwing "libertarianism" and anti-government rhetoric as leftwing when it is clearly rooted in paranoid tea party rantings.

the supposed aquaintance (its based on some tweets) was in highschool with him when he was 17, he is now 22 and inbetween he tried to join the military (and was rejected) so i would say that any "radical-left" politics he might have had 5 years ago say nothing about his current ones.

speaking about the military bit, how fucked up an country are you if you find someone unfit to join the militairy and say "You might be too nuts to shoot people abroad but hey, you can still buy an legal 30 shot semi-automatic glock at home"

[apawllo]

An acquaintance of his stated that he seemed "very liberal, quite leftwing". Based upon the views he has expressed ( abortion is a terrorist act, don't listen to the federal government, Obama is brainwashing) he is clearly RIGHTwing. The acquaintance misinterpreted his rightwing "libertarianism" and anti-government rhetoric as leftwing when it is clearly rooted in paranoid tea party rantings.

Plus his support for the gold standard, and so on. The statements made by others regarding his "leftwing views" were all based on several years ago though. Young people can change a bit during that amount of time, as it's generally a period of ideological exploration. This is undoubtedly the case for him based on his book choices. I'd guess that he knows he disagrees with the establishment at this point, but I tend to doubt that he has any clue what's going wrong.

[FreeFocus]

Is the guy "mentally ill" because he carried out political violence? That's a very bad definition, if so. I would wait for evidence of that, some confirmation, before making that claim. I think that he was frustrated and politically-motivated, so he did this.

[Tablo]

Is the guy "mentally ill" because he carried out political violence? That's a very bad definition, if so. I would wait for evidence of that, some confirmation, before making that claim. I think that he was frustrated and politically-motivated, so he did this.
We aren't assuming he is mentally ill based on the political violence. We are basing it on what is know about him and his behavior in the past.

[Rusty Shackleford]

with 727 goon.

Let's not try to play this as politics. The guy liked Mein Kampf and the Community Manifesto? Is that rational? No. Is a mass shooting of innocent people rational? No.


liking books doesnt mean one agrees with what is in them. same with having read books.

i have read the constitution and many many right-wing posts and articles. do i agree with them? no.

this guy just seemd to have a broad reading style. that or he posted them to start shit. who knows.

[bots]

2) The fact that the far-right appeals to the paranoid, lunatic fringe is political. I think the reference to the Hal Turner Diaries earlier is a good example. These people spew paranoia and violent rhetoric and it is no surprise that people are influenced by it (especially those with mental problems).

Hey so does the far left. Though it is pretty interesting that the left doesn't have a Glenn Beck equivalent. Even in the Bush years criticism in mainstream media was fairly tame from the Left. You know, there was a lot of focus on Bush's stupidity but I never heard any calls for revolution. Maybe this was just a symptom of the Left's higher-than-thou false morality complex. Or maybe right wingers are just better at buying and manipulating the media.

[southernmissfan]

Hey so does the far left. Though it is pretty interesting that the left doesn't have a Glenn Beck equivalent. Even in the Bush years criticism in mainstream media was fairly tame from the Left. You know, there was a lot of focus on Bush's stupidity but I never heard any calls for revolution. Maybe this was just a symptom of the Left's higher-than-thou false morality complex. Or maybe right wingers are just better at buying and manipulating the media.

True. I could see how someone who is mentally unstable and is exposed to say, this website, might get the wrong idea. But it's still hard to equate revolutionary socialism (whether it be anarchist or Marxist) with the American far-right. Even the loonier elements of our movement don't stand up to the crazy of the Tea Party/Minutemen/etc.

And you have to account for the fact that they have their own channel (Fox), their own mainstream base of support (Republican party) and the fact the ruling class will always be more sympathetic to their ideals over those that empower workers and minorities towards change.

[Luís Henrique]

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/01/09/westboro-baptist-church-arizona_n_806319.html

If this wasn't political, is going to be political anyways, because there is going to be a political battle over the significance of this. We have seen "liberals" blaming it on the Tea Party, right-wingers distancing from it and trying to blame it on "liberals", and, as we see above, there are right-wingers owing it and claiming it was an act of God (and I am mildly and agreeably surprised that I have yet to see any "left-wing" whackos claiming it was an act of class struggle against the bourgeois Democrats).

It is obvious that the guy is deranged, deranged, and deranged - and after that, he may or may not be a deranged right-winger (you can compare his rantings with those of "sane" righ-wing terrorists - their reasoning is abhorrent, but intelligible; this guy is completely confuse, down to the "grammatical structure"; his rambling attempts to squeeze his thoughts into a logical form seem efforts to hold his mind together when it was clearly falling apart). It is also obvious that the confusion and irrationality of the right-wing propaganda hadn't any good effects in his disturbed mind.

Attention however with the off-context bits trying to make him what he was clearly not (for instance, "I won't trust God" - it is not a declaration of atheism, but a rejection of the current monetary system - as in, "the sentence 'in God we trust' doesn't substitue for actual exchangeability for gold").

Luís Henrique

[Rusty Shackleford]

People decry the politicization of the shooting in tuscon but the shooting was inherently political. dont try to play the humane card or the moral high ground card by not speculating the motive of the attempted murder of a controversial lawmaker and the murder controversial federal judge.

the man himself had targeted Giffords and said... it was premeditated. how is this not political?

[Sasha]

the cowardly lying *****:


Palin Panics (http://slog.thestranger.com/slog/archives/2011/01/09/palin-panics)

Posted by Dan Savage (http://www.thestranger.com/seattle/ArticleArchives?author=259) on Sun, Jan 9, 2011 at 11:05 AM

http://www.thestranger.com/images/blogimages/2011/01/09/1294600105-palinsmapcross.jpg
TPM (http://tpmdc.talkingpointsmemo.com/2011/01/palin-aide-crosshairs-on-target-list-not-actually-gun-sights.php?ref=fpb):
An aide to Sarah Palin claims the crosshairs depicted in her now-infamous target list of Democrats were not actually gun-sights, and that it's "obscene" and "appalling" to blame Palin for the shooting. "We never ever, ever intended it to be gun sights."So what were they if they weren't crosshairs? They were "surveyor marks," says Palin's spokesperson, "like you'd see on maps."
Palin has been getting grief about those crosshairs since that map was released more than a year ago. Good of her to make a clarification now. I'm sure the family of the dead little girl appreciates it.
UPDATE: So it wasn't a cartographical metaphor after all—Palin isn't exactly famous for her map-making metaphors, is she?—at least not according to a Palin tweet from two months ago. Via Slog commenter Mike in Olympia:
http://www.thestranger.com/images/blogimages/2011/01/09/1294608669-tweetingsackofshit.jpg
How do you know when Palin's lying? When her lips are moving, when she's Tweeting, when she's posting bullshit to her Facebook page; when her spokesperson is speaking; when Todd opens his mouth; when her kids open their mouths, etc., etc., etc. The woman lies in her sleep.

Permalink (http://slog.thestranger.com/slog/archives/2011/01/09/palin-panics)

[TwoSevensClash]

The fact is that we live in a culture of violence and fear. Every "idiot" can have an assault rifle under their bed, even in a peace loving society. Gun rights is not the issue. It does not matter whether the shooting was political, or if the guy is a nut job. What matters is that this guy is probably going to be executed, which will only perpetuate the cycle of violence.
Normally I would agree but since this piece of shit killed an innocent 9 year old girl I think he deserves it.

[Diogenes]

I was reading one of the links from one of the earlier pages and there was a link saying that the Westboro Baptist Church is going to protest at the funerals of the people killed

[S.Artesian]

There is no "cycle of violence." The people targeted by this jerk and his backers aren't going to take revenge by shooting Palin, or shooting Boehner. There is no cycle of violence.

James Meredith integrating Ole Miss is not a violent act perpetuating a cycle that includes the gunning down of Medgar Evers and later, James Meredith himself.

There is violence perpetrated by oppressors and exploiters to maintain or enhance the power of the exploitation. That violence persists and expands based on economic and political necessity. Resistance to that violence, by meeting it in kind, is part of breaking the cycle.

When the oppressed andexploited fight back, using their collective strength to more than defend themselves but to pre-empt the attacks of the exploiters-- that breaks the cycle of violence.

There is no "culture of violence and fear." There is a culture of capitalism, of private property, of exploiting labor under brutal conditions. That culture of capitalism has performed its violence through the African slave trade; slave labor; lynchings; genocide of indigenous peoples; executions of working class militants; strikebreaking goon squads; attacks on reproductive health care providers and centers; and on the odd assassination of a member of its own ruling structure.

The culture is the culture of exploitation, not violence and fear. The target is nothing less than the overthrow of that exploitation.

What the bourgeois just-us system does with this murdering piece of shit is of little importance. What counts are the "big guns" with the big bucks bankrolling all those wannabe Sarah Palin's out there; those wannabe shooters.

[Rosa Lichtenstein]

UK, ITV News (Sunday Night, approx 10.45pm) has shown the page from Palin's site that has crosshairs on several states, and made the link between the Tea Party and physical attacks on Democrats. BBC News has remained bland, but they did report this:


The FBI is also investigating a series of rambling messages posted on social networking sites in recent weeks.

Videos of text posted on a YouTube channel set up in the name of Jared Lee Loughner show a deep distrust of the government and religion, describing US laws as "treasonous" and speaking repeatedly of his wish to create a new currency.

"The government is implying mind control and brainwash on the people by controlling grammar," one of the videos read.

"No! I won't pay debt with a currency that's not backed by gold and silver! No! I won't trust in God!"

In a video dated 15 December, Mr Loughner describes himself as a "military recruit". The US Army has confirmed that Mr Loughner attempted to enlist but said he was rejected because he failed a drug test.

Hours before the attack on Ms Giffords, a message was posted on Mr Loughner's MySpace page saying "Goodbye".

"Dear friends, please don't be mad at me."

The page was immediately taken down once Mr Loughner's name was linked to the killings.

According to a memo leaked to Fox News, the department of homeland security is investigating Mr Loughner's possible ties to a white supremacist group called American Renaissance.

The group's founder has denied that Mr Loughner was a member.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-12145117

[Rosa Lichtenstein]

NHIA:


The First, Second and Third internationals up until Stalin's reign argued for the right to bear arms.

Yes, let's defend the right of Nazis to bear arms...:rolleyes:

[Manic Impressive]

Westbro Baptist Church's view on the shooting
=VgJe2tGuP7w (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VgJe2tGuP7w)

[Tablo]

Westbro Baptist Church's view on the shooting
=VgJe2tGuP7w (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VgJe2tGuP7w)
Fucking idiots. >.>

[Pierre.Laporte]

the supposed aquaintance (its based on some tweets) was in highschool with him when he was 17, he is now 22 and inbetween he tried to join the military (and was rejected) so i would say that any "radical-left" politics he might have had 5 years ago say nothing about his current ones.

speaking about the military bit, how fucked up an country are you if you find someone unfit to join the militairy and say "You might be too nuts to shoot people abroad but hey, you can still buy an legal 30 shot semi-automatic glock at home"

I was perceived as a left winger when I was a libertarian in my high school days. Most people who aren't versed outside of Democrats or Republicans perceive libertarianism as left wing.

He could have also done a political 180 since then and now (like people have said). Being around his age, I remember how when I was that old I was still on the libertarian phase of my philosophy.

[human strike]

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/jan/10/jared-lee-loughner-gabrielle-giffords?CMP=twt_fd

[Jimmie Higgins]

Yes, let's defend the right of Nazis to bear arms...:rolleyes:

Guns don't kill people, capitalism (police and military and death penalty and poverty) does.:)

[human strike]

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=439x153766

Busted.

[Comrade Wolfie's Very Nearly Banned Adventures]

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=439x153766

Busted.

Not very fucking suprising. Tebbagers are having to do a lot of damage control on this one.

[Dimentio]

LwB3o5L5XY0

[Sasha]

gun rights/control discussion split to here: http://www.revleft.com/vb/gun-control-split-t147898/index.html

[Leonid Brozhnev]

TAA hits the nail on the head about Palin at the end there.

[Sasha]

No False Equivalencies (http://slog.thestranger.com/slog/archives/2011/01/10/no-false-equivalencies)

Posted by Dan Savage (http://www.thestranger.com/seattle/ArticleArchives?author=259) on Mon, Jan 10, 2011 at 7:37 AM

Chicago Sun-Times (http://www.suntimes.com/opinions/3220146-474/giffords-cannot-tucson-ariz-saturday.html):

We cannot blame one nutjob for the shooting of 19 people Saturday in Tucson, Ariz., and wash our hands of it. We cannot pretend that this is only about him and not about us. Worst of all, we cannot say we were not warned. For more than two years, sensible people have been pleading with their fellow Americans to tone down the rhetoric, to quit with the demonizing, to end the fear-mongering.... The safe observation for us to make now—you will hear it from others all week—is that the angry and irresponsible talk that might lead an unhinged person to pick up a gun is common across the political landscape, from right to left. But that simply is not true.
Overwhelmingly today, the fear-mongering and demonizing flow from the right, aided and abetted by cable TV and talk-radio hosts. They may represent only the irresponsible fringe of conservatism in America, but they are drowning out the thoughtful voices of the vast majority of conservatives.
Conservative cable news and talk-radio hosts don't represent the "irresponsible fringe." They run the movement. To claim that the unelected leaders of the GOP are somehow on the fringe is to replace a false equivalency with a dishonest distinction.

Permalink (http://slog.thestranger.com/slog/archives/2011/01/10/no-false-equivalencies) | Post Comments (1) (http://www.thestranger.com/seattle/Comments?oid=6242618&category=slog)



(http://www.thestranger.com/seattle/Comments?oid=6242618&category=slog)
News (http://slog.thestranger.com/slog/archives/news/) Was Jared Loughner Mentally Ill or Politically Influenced? (http://slog.thestranger.com/slog/archives/2011/01/10/was-jared-loughner-mentally-ill-or-politically-influenced)

Posted by Eli Sanders (http://www.thestranger.com/seattle/ArticleArchives?author=12168) on Mon, Jan 10, 2011 at 6:00 AM

It's a false choice, as many are now saying, and as Krugmann explains today (http://www.nytimes.com/2011/01/10/opinion/10krugman.html):

It’s true that the shooter in Arizona appears to have been mentally troubled. But that doesn’t mean that his act can or should be treated as an isolated event, having nothing to do with the national climate. I keep thinking about the case of Seattle hatchet murderer Michael LaRosa (http://www.thestranger.com/seattle/the-hatchet/Content?oid=5860130), whom I wrote about recently.
He's been diagnosed as a paranoid schizophrenic, as many think Loughner to be. He's in his 20s, just like Loughner. He's now charged with murder, just like Loughner.
If there had been loud voices in the culture that merged with, or even endorsed, LaRosa's paranoid delusions (he believed that people were secretly trying to poison him and give him diseases), and if those loud voices in the culture also encouraged violence as a way of dealing with those types of delusions (by speaking of, say, a "hatchet solution" for disease spreaders), then would we not consider that irresponsible, or even dangerous?
This is not to say that freedom of speech should be curtailed so as not to accidentally (or purposefully) set off a mentally unstable person somewhere. It is simply to say that those who speak with louder voices, and from positions of power and authority, have a greater responsibility for considering the impact of their words.
There's an anecdote in a recent Matt Taibbi (http://www.rollingstone.com/politics/news/matt-taibbi-the-crying-shame-of-john-boehner-20110105?print=true) piece on Republican House Majority Leader John Boehner that makes this point well—and has been making the rounds as a result:

Another Ohio Democrat, Steve Driehaus, clashed repeatedly with Boehner before losing his seat in the midterm elections. After Boehner suggested that by voting for Obamacare, Driehaus "may be a dead man" and "can't go home to the west side of Cincinnati" because "the Catholics will run him out of town," Driehaus began receiving death threats, and a right-wing website published directions to his house. Driehaus says he approached Boehner on the floor and confronted him. "I didn't think it was funny at all," Driehaus says. "I've got three little kids and a wife. I said to him, 'John, this is bullshit, and way out of bounds. For you to say something like that is wildly irresponsible.'"
Driehaus is quick to point out that he doesn't think Boehner meant to urge anyone to violence. "But it's not about what he intended — it's about how the least rational person in my district takes it. We run into some crazy people in this line of work."
Driehaus says Boehner was "taken aback" when confronted on the floor, but never actually said he was sorry: "He said something along the lines of, 'You know that's not what I meant.' But he didn't apologize."


Permalink (http://slog.thestranger.com/slog/archives/2011/01/10/was-jared-loughner-mentally-ill-or-politically-influenced)


source: http://slog.thestranger.com/blogs/slog/

[Bethechange]

I see no indication this man was a teabagger. Let's assume he was, though. It's very possible they could successfully paint him as something else, or at least disown his extremist ways. Even if that failed, the Nazi Party bounced back from its failed 1923 Munich Putsch. Something like this does not (always) spell doom to a movement.

[chegitz guevara]

an acquaintance of his stated that he seemed "very liberal, quite leftwing".

in 2007 and he hasn't had any contact with him for years!

[Martin Blank]

the cowardly lying *****:

Sorry, psycho, but that's a verbal warning for sexist language. I despise Palin, too, but let's not go there.

[Martin Blank]

in 2007 and he hasn't had any contact with him for years!

Right. And as someone pointed out on a talk show this morning, the woman who said that is a Republican.

[Sasha]

Sorry, psycho, but that's a verbal warning for sexist language. I despise Palin, too, but let's not go there.

At first it said something with an C, this was the best I could come up with. But please direct me to an apt gender neutral swearword to describe this fucking lying....
Thinking about it, are there genderneutral words like that in English? There aren't in dutch. Even asshole seems to be an very male word.

[Pierre.Laporte]

I just got the paper in my local town today and they picked up an AP story that read "the 22 year old man was described as a pot-smoking loner"

How the fact he may have smoked pot recreationally is relevant, I'll never know.

[Sasha]

If your an paranoid schizophreniac its never a good idea to smoke pot... or listen to glen beck.. or buy semi-automatics...

[Martin Blank]

At first it said something with an C, this was the best I could come up with. But please direct me to an apt gender neutral swearword to describe this fucking lying....
Thinking about it, are there genderneutral words like that in English? There aren't in dutch. Even asshole seems to be an very male word.

I've been a fan of using "fuckwit" to describe Palin. It suits her rather well. You could even expand it out to "feckless fuckwit", which would impress friends since "feckless" is not a common word to use in English. :D

[Martin Blank]

I just got the paper in my local town today and they picked up an AP story that read "the 22 year old man was described as a pot-smoking loner"

How the fact he may have smoked pot recreationally is relevant, I'll never know.

It's not, but now the anti-drug lunatics have a response to the rhetorical question, "Have you ever heard of someone going on a pot-fueled rampage?"

[Martin Blank]

So, yesterday, the Chairperson of our Party, Martin Sayles, was at a vigil held around this incident. He and another member were passing out copies of a brief Party statement (in lieu of the full one, out today) when he was approached by the media about it. They asked him to make a statement. Here's what he said:


The attempted assassination of Democratic Representatives Gabrielle Giffords was a blatant act of political terrorism by the Nativist and fascist forces in this country. Let us make no mistake: this was a political act and no one should be allowed to portray it as anything different.

Giffords, the first Jewish Congressperson from Arizona, had been a frequent target of attacks by the Nativists and fascists in her state since taking office in 2006. Especially after the election of Barack Obama as the chief executive of American capitalism, Giffords, along with many other Democratic officials and representatives, received a number of credible death threats and were the targets of numerous instances of political terrorism.

It was only last March that Giffords’ office in Tuscon was the target of such an attack. At the time, she offered a now-prophetic statement, that such acts of harrassment, threats, intimidation and vandalism as had been used against Democratic officials by members and supporters of the Tea Party Nativist movement did have consequences.

Indeed, such acts did have consequences, but so did the decision by Democrats to ignore these threats — to downplay the violent rhetoric, dismiss the Nativists as “dying” and “irrelevant,” and even act as enablers alongside more enthusiastic Republicans.

Much has been made of the “hit list” produced by Sarah Palin’s political action committee, which listed Giffords among 19 other Democratic representatives to be targeted for removal from office in 2010. And it is right to do so. Palin’s “hit list,” which used gunsight crosshairs to mark her “targets,” was a clear graphical expression of the belligerent and violent posture that the Nativist and fascist elements of the Republican Party have taken in the last 20 years.

The reality is that this was to be expected. Giffords is one of only two Democrats from Palin’s list to be re-elected last November. She narrowly won over a Nativist Republican opponent who also used violent rhetoric to stir up supporters, including holding a fundraiser at a local shooting range.

Her district includes the state’s border with Mexico, which has been the scene of armed fascist and Nativist mobilizations against “illegal immigrants;” Giffords left the Republican Party in 2006 in part because of their violent anti-immigrant stance.

She opposed the state’s legal attack on Latinos and supported Obama’s health insurance reform bill — both being “hot-button” issues among Nativists and fascists.

These elements, especially when placed in the national context of threats, intimidation and appeals to violence, such as Nevada Republican Senate candidate Sharron Angle calling for “second amendment remedies” if Democratic candidates won, helped set the stage for what we have seen.

The response of the Democrats to these escalating attacks has been to accommodate them. From the White House to the Congressional Democrats to even among prominent party officials and activists, the extralegal and illegal actions by the Nativists and fascists in the Tea Party have been met with a willingness to “mainstream” their politics and invite them to the “table” of American politics. This appeasement has done nothing but empower and embolden the Nativists and fascists, which in turn has given them the “freedom” to take the next step.

But rather than approach this brutal incident for what it is, rather than recognize this as an act of political terrorism fueled by the growth of the Nativist and fascist elements in the Tea Party and among Republicans, the Democrats are once again bowing to these forces and allowing them to define this incident as the act of an “angry lone nut.”

This is being done by the bipartisan chorus demanding that the attempted assassination of Giffords not be “politicized.” This brutal and tragic act was “politicized” the moment Jared Loughner pointed his pistol at the back of Giffords’ head and pulled the trigger. To demand or plead for it be seen otherwise is to alibi and rationalize the belligerent and violent views and actions of the Tea Party Nativists and fascists.

The attempted assassination of Giffords and the murder of five others is a reflection of the absence of even the limited democracy this country once enjoyed. Assassinations occur in times of political crisis, when the formal means of political change are seen as inadequate. It reflects the desperation of the “middle class,” which looks for salvation from perceived ruin in acts of terror. These methods are alien to working people. We reject and organize against them.(Yes, these remarks were semi-prepared in advance. Yes, they are in today's issue of Working People's Advocate, along with the full statement from the C.C.)

[Red Commissar]

Mother Jones has an article interviewing an acquittance of his, and unlike the random person who was in school with Loughner well over three years ago, these are recent accounts.

http://motherjones.com/politics/2011/01/jared-lee-loughner-friend-voicemail-phone-message



Exclusive: Loughner Friend Explains Alleged Gunman's Grudge Against Giffords
A longtime friend shares a message sent hours before the massacre.
By Nick Baumann | Mon Jan. 10, 2011 12:01 AM PST

http://mjcdn.motherjones.com/preset_12/jared-lee-loughner-book-fair.jpg
Loughner in March 2010

At 2:00 a.m. on Saturday—about eight hours before he allegedly killed six people and wounded 14, including Rep. Gabrielle Giffords (D-Ariz.), in Tucson—Jared Lee Loughner phoned an old and close friend with whom he had gone to high school and college. The friend, Bryce Tierney, was up late watching TV, but he didn't answer the call. When he later checked his voice mail, he heard a simple message from Loughner: "Hey man, it's Jared. Me and you had good times. Peace out. Later."

That was it. But later in the day, when Tierney first heard about the Tucson massacre, he had a sickening feeling: "They hadn't released the name, but I said, 'Holy shit, I think it's Jared that did it.'" Tierney tells Mother Jones in an exclusive interview that Loughner held a years-long grudge against Giffords and had repeatedly derided her as a "fake." Loughner's animus toward Giffords intensified after he attended one of her campaign events and she did not, in his view, sufficiently answer a question he had posed, Tierney says. He also describes Loughner as being obsessed with "lucid dreaming"—that is, the idea that conscious dreams are an alternative reality that a person can inhabit and control—and says Loughner became "more interested in this world than our reality." Tierney adds, "I saw his dream journal once. That's the golden piece of evidence. You want to know what goes on in Jared Loughner's mind, there's a dream journal that will tell you everything."

On Sunday, federal prosecutors charged 22-year-old Loughner [1] with one count of attempting to assassinate a member of Congress, two counts of unlawfully killing a federal employee, and two counts of attempting to kill a federal employee. Giffords was the target of Loughner's rampage, prosecutors say, and the sworn affidavit accompanying the charges mentions that Loughner attended a Giffords "Congress in Your Corner" event in 2007. The affidavit also mentions that police searching a safe in Loughner's home found a letter from Giffords' office thanking the alleged shooter for attending an August 25, 2007 event.*

Tierney, who's also 22, recalls Loughner complaining about a Giffords event he attended during that period. He's unsure whether it was the same one mentioned in the charges—Loughner "might have gone to some other rallies," he says—but Tierney notes it was a significant moment for Loughner: "He told me that she opened up the floor for questions and he asked a question. The question was, 'What is government if words have no meaning?'"

"He said, 'Can you believe it, they wouldn't answer my question.' Ever since that, he thought she was fake, he had something against her."

Giffords' answer, whatever it was, didn't satisfy Loughner. "He said, 'Can you believe it, they wouldn't answer my question,' and I told him, 'Dude, no one's going to answer that,'" Tierney recalls. "Ever since that, he thought she was fake, he had something against her."

Tierney says he has "no clue" why Loughner might have "shot all those other people." But, he notes, "when I heard Gabrielle Giffords has been shot, I was like 'Oh my God...' For some reason I felt like I knew...I felt like if anyone was going to shoot her, it would be Jared."

Loughner would occasionally mention Giffords, according to Tierney: "It wasn't a day-in, day-out thing, but maybe once in a while, if Giffords did something that was ridiculous or passed some stupid law or did something stupid, he related that to people. But the thing I remember most is just that question. I don't remember him stalking her or anything." Tierney notes that Loughner did not display any specific political or ideological bent: "It wasn't like he was in a certain party or went to rallies...It's not like he'd go on political rants." But Loughner did, according to Tierney, believe that government is "fucking us over." He never heard Loughner vent about about the perils of "currency," as Loughner did on one YouTube video he created [2].

Tierney, who first met Loughner in middle school, recalls that Loughner started to act strange around his junior or senior year of high school. Before that, Loughner was just a "normal kid," says Tierney. When the two friends started hanging out in sophomore year of high school, "there was nothing really dark about Jared," Tierney says. "He was playing drums, doing band things, playing sax. He was raised on writing and reading music." Loughner also did a lot of creative writing in his high school days, Tierney says, and he used to carry around a copy of a short story he wrote involving a character named Angel; he'd ask people if they would like to read it. "It had a lot of hidden metaphors in it," Tierney says.

Loughner would tell Tierney and his friends that life "means nothing."
As Loughner and Tierney grew closer, Tierney got used to spending the first ten minutes or so of every day together arguing with Loughner's "nihilist" view of the world. "By the time he was 19 or 20, he was really fascinated with semantics and how the world is really nothing—illusion," Tierney says. Once, Tierney recalls, Loughner told him, "I'm pretty sure I've come to the conclusion that words mean nothing." Loughner would also tell Tierney and his friends that life "means nothing," and they'd reply, "If it means nothing, what you're saying means nothing." Other times, Tierney says, Loughner acted like any teen: "We'd go to concerts, play music, get into trouble."

Tierney believes that Loughner was very interested in pushing people's buttons—and that may have been why he listed Hitler's Mein Kampf as one of his favorite books on his YouTube page [3]. (Loughner's mom is Jewish, according to Tierney.) Loughner sometimes approached strangers and would say "weird" things, Tierney recalls. "He would do it because he thought people were below him and he knew they wouldn't know what he was talking about."

In college, Loughner became increasingly intrigued with "lucid dreaming," and he grew convinced that he could control his dreams, according to Tierney. In a series of rambling videos posted to his YouTube page, dreams are a frequent topic. In a video posted on December 15, Loughner writes, "My favorite activity is conscience dreaming: the greatest inspiration for my political business information. Some of you don't dream—sadly." In another video, he writes, "The population of dreamers in the United States of America is less than 5%!" Later in the same video he says, "I'm a sleepwalker—who turns off the alarm clock."

"When you realize you're dreaming, you can do anything, you can create anything."
Loughner believed that dreams could be a sort of alternative, Matrix-style reality, and "that when you realize you're dreaming, you can do anything, you can create anything," Tierney says. Loughner started his "dream journal" in an attempt to take more control of his dreams, his friend notes, and he kept this journal for over a year.

In October 2008, Tierney was living in Phoenix, and Loughner came to visit. They went to see a Mars Volta concert with friends, and Tierney was surprised when Loughner said he had quit partying "completely." Loughner, according to Tierney, said, "I'm going to lead a more healthy lifestyle, not smoke cigarettes or pot anymore, and I'm going to start working out." Tierney was happy for his friend: "I said, 'Dude, that's awesome.' And the next time I saw him he was 10 pounds lighter." Tierney never saw Loughner smoke marijuana again, and he was surprised at media reports that Loughner had been rejected from the military in 2009 for failing a drug test: "He was clean, clean. I saw him after that continuously. He would not do it."

After Loughner apparently gave up drugs and booze, "his theories got worse," Tierney says. "After he quit, he was just off the wall." And Loughner started to drift away from his group of friends about a year ago. By early 2010, dreaming had become Loughner's "waking life, his reality," Tierney says. "He sort of drifted off, didn't really care about hanging out with friends. He'd be sleeping a lot." Loughner's alternate reality was attractive, Tierney says. "He figured out he could fly." Loughner, according to Tierney, told his friends, "I'm so into it because I can create things and fly. I'm everything I'm not in this world."

"He figured out he could fly."
But in this world, Loughner seemed ticked off by what he believed to be a pervasive authoritarianism. "The government is implying mind control and brainwash on the people by controlling grammar," he wrote in one YouTube video. In another, Loughner complains that when he tried to join the military, he was handed a "mini-Bible." That upset him: "I didn't write a belief on my Army application and the recruiter wrote on the application: None," he wrote on YouTube. In messages on MySpace last month, Loughner declared, "I'll see you on National T.v.! This is foreshadow." He also noted on the website, "I don't feel good: I'm ready to kill a police officer! I can say it."

One of the last times Loughner and Tierney saw each other, a mutual friend had recently purchased a .22-caliber rifle. Until then, Loughner had never shown much interest in guns, Tierney says. "My friend had just gotten a .22, and Jared kept saying we should go shooting together." But Tierney and the friend who had bought the .22 demurred. "We were sketched out," Tierney says, "and we were like, 'I don't think Jared's a good person to go shooting with.'" That was in February or March 2010. After that, Tierney didn't hear much from Loughner.

Since hearing of the rampage, Tierney has been trying to figure out why Loughner did what he allegedly did. "More chaos, maybe," he says. "I think the reason he did it was mainly to just promote chaos. He wanted the media to freak out about this whole thing. He wanted exactly what's happening. He wants all of that." Tierney thinks that Loughner's mindset was like the Joker in the most recent Batman movie: "He fucks things up to fuck shit up, there's no rhyme or reason, he wants to watch the world burn. He probably wanted to take everyone out of their monotonous lives: 'Another Saturday, going to go get groceries'—to take people out of these norms that he thought society had trapped us in."

Tierney dwells on the phone call he missed early Saturday morning. But it was late, and the TV show Tierney was watching was creeping him out. So he didn't pick up. "I sort of wish I would have," he says. "I wonder what would have happened if I answered it."

*This sentence has been corrected to reflect that August 30, 2007 was the date of the letter, not the date of the event itself. The event was on August 25.

Source URL: http://motherjones.com/politics/2011/01/jared-lee-loughner-friend-voicemail-phone-message
Links:
[1] http://www.scribd.com/doc/46561369/USA-v-Loughner-Criminal-Complaint-1-9-2011
[2] http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7uRjwPWaxiY&feature=player_embedded
[3] http://www.youtube.com/user/Classitup10#p/a/u/1/nHoaZaLbqB4

[Sasha]

January 9, 2011
It Doesn’t Matter Why He Did It

Posted by George Packer (http://www.newyorker.com/magazine/bios/george_packer/search?contributorName=George%20Packer)
http://blog.newyorker.com/online/blogs/georgepacker/assets_c/2011/01/jared-thumb-233x279-59604.jpg (http://blog.newyorker.com/online/blogs/georgepacker/jared.jpg)
Judging from his Internet postings, Jared Lee Loughner is a delusional young man whose inner political landscape is a swamp of dystopian novels, left- and right-wing tracts, conspiracy theories, and contempt for his fellow human beings. He refers to the gold and silver standard; that doesn't make Ron Paul responsible for the shootings. He is fond of “Animal Farm”; George Orwell didn't guide the hand that pulled the automatic pistol's trigger. Marx and Hitler produced a lot of corpses, but not the ones in Tucson.
But the plate-glass window of Congresswoman Gabrielle Giffords’s office was shattered last March after the final health-care vote. Judge John Roll, who was among the dead, had received death threats and spent a month with a protection detail. Roll was apparently a bystander to Loughner’s intended target—and maybe the gunman had no idea why he was aiming for Giffords either, maybe he didn't know how she voted on health care or what her position on Arizona’s draconian immigration law was. It would be a kind of relief if Loughner operated not out of any coherent political context but just his own fevered brain.
But even so, the tragedy wouldn't change this basic fact: for the past two years, many conservative leaders, activists, and media figures have made a habit of trying to delegitimize their political opponents. Not just arguing against their opponents, but doing everything possible to turn them into enemies of the country and cast them out beyond the pale. Instead of “soft on defense,” one routinely hears the words “treason” and “traitor.” The President isn't a big-government liberal—he's a socialist who wants to impose tyranny. He's also, according to a minority of Republicans, including elected officials, an impostor. Even the reading of the Constitution on the first day of the 112th Congress was conceived as an assault on the legitimacy of the Democratic Administration and Congress.
This relentlessly hostile rhetoric has become standard issue on the right. (On the left it appears in anonymous comment threads, not congressional speeches and national T.V. programs.) And it has gone almost entirely uncriticized by Republican leaders. Partisan media encourages it, while the mainstream media finds it titillating and airs it, often without comment, so that the gradual effect is to desensitize even people to whom the rhetoric is repellent. We’ve all grown so used to it over the past couple of years that it took the shock of an assassination attempt to show us the ugliness to which our politics has sunk.
The massacre in Tucson is, in a sense, irrelevant to the important point. Whatever drove Jared Lee Loughner, America's political frequencies are full of violent static.
Photograph: Mamta Popat/Arizona Daily Star/AP



Read more http://www.newyorker.com/online/blogs/georgepacker/2011/01/judging-from-his-internet-postings.html#ixzz1AfxxL0YZ



also


On The Shooting of Gabrielle Giffords (http://mightygodking.com/index.php/2011/01/09/on-the-shooting-of-gabrielle-giffords/)

Posted by MGK (http://mightygodking.com/index.php/author/admin/) Published in Politics (http://mightygodking.com/index.php/category/politics/)
Nobody should realistically blame Sarah Palin for directly causing the incident. Sarah Palin did not pull the trigger; Sarah Palin did not tell the nutbag to pull the trigger; Sarah Palin did not buy the gun.
However, there’s a difference between cause and context, and that’s what those of us trying to talk about Palin’s comments want to discuss. Saying “he was just a nutbag” isn’t sufficient. There are lots of nutbags who do violent things, but Jared Loughner didn’t decide to kill people because he was in a crazy cult (like Squeaky Fromme was) or because he was obsessed with a Hollywood star (like John Hinckley was). Jared Loughner, like most of the major violent newsmaking incidents of the past few years, decided to go kill people because he felt, like most paranoids do (and he’s pretty obviously paranoid) that Somebody Was Out To Get Him.
But most paranoids don’t go out killing people; the tinfoil hats and hoarding is usually enough to get them by. So what happened with Jared Loughner? The same thing that happened with Andrew Stack when he flew his plane into an IRS building, or Byron Williams when he decided he had to go shoot up the Tides Federation and the ACLU, or James von Brunn when he shot up the Holocaust Museum, or Jim Adkisson when he decided to shoot up a Unitarian Church, or Richard Poplawski when he shot up a bunch of cops, or Nidal Hasan when he shot up Fort Hood.
I threw that last one in there in purpose, because back when Nidal Hasan – somebody who was obviously mentally disturbed – committed his crime, there were no shortage of people who were willing to say that radical Islam influenced his actions even if he was a nutbag. Now, this is not to say that Sarah Palin is equivalent to Osama Bin Laden; of course she isn’t. Bin Laden is a terrorist; Palin is just a generally terrible human being.
But she, and more importantly the modern conservative movement, uses the violent rhetoric of uprise and uses it routinely. This cannot be denied because it is plainly obvious on its face. “Don’t retreat, reload” did not become her catchphrase for nothing. Sharron Angle talking about how if conservatives lose at the polls they should consider resorting to “Second Amendment remedies.” Carrying signs that say things like “we came unarmed – this time,” or alternately just bringing a gun right to a political event period1 (http://mightygodking.com/index.php/2011/01/09/on-the-shooting-of-gabrielle-giffords/#footnote_0_4395). Glenn Beck talking for hours at a time about how the government is being put to evil, tyrannical ends, and how it’s important for Americans to “rise up” or “not take it any more” or ““.
This is not to say that Jared Loughner is conservative; most likely he is just too crazy and fringe to really be anything, much like Stack or or even Williams.2 (http://mightygodking.com/index.php/2011/01/09/on-the-shooting-of-gabrielle-giffords/#footnote_1_4395) But he, like the others, was receiving a steady diet of rhetoric that was violent, at times even slightly eliminationist.
As for Poplawski and van Brunn, they were white supremacists, which – historical connotations aside – doesn’t really have that much to do with modern conservatism, ideologically speaking.3 (http://mightygodking.com/index.php/2011/01/09/on-the-shooting-of-gabrielle-giffords/#footnote_2_4395) But over the last few years, movement conservatism has been visibly borrowing rhetoric from the paranoid camp of white supremacism. Not racist stuff, let’s be clear; paranoid stuff.
Government as inherent tyranny; liberal institutions as ground for secret conspiracies; the almost certainly incipient charge of the black helicopters. And, of course, the desperate labeling of a health care bill so blandly middle-of-the-road and centrist it was probably drafted with mayonnaise rather than ink as “a government takeover of healthcare” and “death panels” and etc. etc. etc. If you’re a paranoid, you already think that THEY are out to GET YOU. If you’re told, over and over again, that THEY is “this specific bunch of people,” sometimes it starts to sink in. That paranoid rhetoric has been chanted, like a mantra, by the modern conservative movement. It’s not the cause for Jared Loughner’s actions; it’s the context.
I get that conservatives don’t want to talk about context right now. After all, it’s rather uncomfortable when this sort of thing is so obvious on its face – just as it was obvious that when Nidal Hasan shot up Fort Hood that, although he was a nutbag and that was most of the reason he went on a rampage, being exposed to the worst kind of violent Islamic rhetoric didn’t help.
And Palin knows it, which is the sad thing: she knows exactly what she did and why. I mean for crissake Sarah Palin’s staff is reduced to pretending that the gun sights on that map were surveyor’s symbols (http://www.alaskadispatch.com/blogs/palin-watch/8205-palin-staffer-calls-using-tragedy-to-score-political-points-qobsceneq-), that’s how desperate they are to try and find any excuse at all for their tone now that it’s possibly gone south on them and people are saying “hey, maybe this [I]isn’t appropriate,” and incidentally when Team Palin says things like that I don’t know why their supporters don’t realize that they’re really saying “you are idiots for giving us money and moral support, you really are, that’s what we think of you,” but that is neither here nor there.
But context matters. Why things like this happened, and have happened before, and will continue to happen in the future – these things matter, because now there is a respected federal judge and a man who shoved his wife down and took her bullet and a nine-year-old girl who are dead. Dismissing this as the act of one nutbag, as random chance, equivalent to a strike of lightning? Moral cowardice, plain and simple.


what they said...

[Martin Blank]

what they said...

No, not what they said. What they said was more alibiing of the Nativists and fascists. They might whine about the rhetoric, but they are unwilling to accept that there is a direct line from that rhetoric to what Loughner did. "It’s not the cause for Jared Loughner’s actions; it’s the context"?! Bullshit! It's both, and the former would not exist without the latter. This is just more appealing for "civility" from barbarians -- as if this would not have ended up happening if the Nativists and fascists had just talked nicer, FFS!

[Sasha]

its late, so sorry if i sound a bit rambeling but what i meant with what they said about that we shouldnt let us be caught in an game of "pinpoint the exact politics of the perp" with the right, even if this guy would have been beamed in from another planet with no knowledge of any of the rethoric raised people who exsersise great power should be fucking mindfull of their great responsibility. We shouldnt let this be about only this case as we could nit pick for the comming decades shifting over the blame.
there are way bigger fish to fry than the actions of this clearly mentally fucked up person. for example the fucked up actions of the not mentally messed up people that could/are likely to lead to this kind of events. But also the complete failure to take care of mentally messed up people. etc etc.
i dont say we shouldnt point fingers, i say we should point fingers an make this about more than who is to blame for this tradgedy but who is to blame for the bigger picture.

[Comrade Wolfie's Very Nearly Banned Adventures]

there are way bigger fish to fry than the actions of this clearly mentally fucked up person. for example the fucked up actions of the not mentally messed up people that could/are likely to lead to this kind of events. But also the complete failure to take care of mentally messed up people. etc etc.

i dont say we shouldnt point fingers, i say we should point fingers an make this about more than who is to blame for this tradgedy but who is to blame for the bigger picture.

It's not suprising that this kind of things keep happening, especially considering the appauling state of mental health care in most countries (even those with universal healthcare), I shuder to think what the state of MH treatment is like in America, considering the utterly appauling state of any form of healthcare in the US.

As long as MH is treated as something best swept under the carpet; eternally underfunded and understaffed, these kind of tragic events will continue to happen, across the globe.

[Nolan]

I'm worried about psycho. His user name might be a hint. :(

[Comrade Wolfie's Very Nearly Banned Adventures]

I'm worried about psycho. His user name might be a hint. :(

Not funny.

[S.Artesian]

It's not suprising that this kind of things keep happening, especially considering the appauling state of mental health care in most countries (even those with universal healthcare), I shuder to think what the state of MH treatment is like in America, considering the utterly appauling state of any form of healthcare in the US.

As long as MH is treated as something best swept under the carpet; eternally underfunded and understaffed, these kind of tragic events will continue to happen, across the globe.

This is NOT an issue of mental health-- this is an issue of big money right-wingers abetting and enabling this kind of act.

How do we know? We know because if mental illness is involved, such illness should be distributed throughout the population, so we should be seeing comfortable, liberal white people from the Democratic Party, left-wingers of every sort, blowing up anti-abortion offices, threatening the families of those congressional representatives and senatorswho voted against healthcare, shooting Coulter, Beck, O'Reilly in the street.

But we don't see that. Just as we didn't see black people blowing up 4 little white girls in church.

This occurs because the bourgeoisie, a portion of the ruling class enables it to happen.

[KurtFF8]

CPUSA Article http://www.cpusa.org/communist-party-mourns-victims-in-az-shooting-decries-incitement/:


Saturday, Jan 8, US Rep. Gabrielle Giffords, Federal Judge John Roll and many others, including a nine-year-old girl were shot during the congresswoman's constituency meeting at a Tucson, Ariz. Safeway grocery store parking lot. As of Sunday morning six have been reported killed, including Judge Roll, and 12 wounded, including Rep. Giffords, who was shot in the head and is expected to survive.

In no uncertain terms, the Communist Party USA strongly and unequivocally condemns this outrageous act of violence. We extend our condolences to the family and friends of the victims. We hope for full recoveries for all the wounded, including Rep. Giffords.
It is reported that law enforcement has in custody a 22-year-old white man, Jared Lee Loughner, as the accused shooter. It is not clear whether the shooter acted alone or with accomplices.


Many are dubbing this a tragedy, which undoubtedly it is. But it doesn't end there.
While we do not yet know the motivation of the crime, many have surmised that the motivation is political because of the atmosphere of violent language and threats against Rep. Giffords and other Congressional Democrats. Political or not, the extreme right-wing tea party movement and their anti-government rantings and ravings helped create an atmosphere that allowed or even encouraged this attack. For instance, until the day of the event when it was removed, Sarah Palin featured Giffords on her webpage with the congresswoman's district in the crosshairs of a gun, targeting her for her support of healthcare reform.


Political hate speech has consequences. Giffords herself said, "Palin has crosshairs on our district; people have to realize there are consequences to that." She said that in a TV interview after her Arizona office had been broken into and vandalized after her vote for the national health care reform bill. Giffords was a frequent target of the tea party movement. Judge Roll, a Republican, had also received threats from the right.

Yet, the link to rhetoric and violence doesn't end with the Palin and her tea party. It extends to the political leadership of Arizona and the Republican Party, who have fomented laws and policies that logically lead to violence. Starting with the anti-immigrant SB 1070 and banning ethnic studies, leaders like Governor Jan Brewer, and Maricopa County Sheriff Joe Arpaio have to take as much responsibility for this violence as Palin and her cohorts. All their condolences ring hollow because of their callous inflammatory rhetoric and romanticization of guns and "Second Amendment remedies". Arizona is burning. It is Ground Zero for this extreme far-right, and their corporate, multi-billionaire sponsors. In the words of Pima County Sheriff Clarence Dupnik in responding to political mood leading to the shooting shooting, "Arizona I think has become the capital. We have become the mecca for prejudice and bigotry."


In the hours after the shooting, some right wing elements seem to have created fake social networking pages in order to associate Loughner with the Left. The full story about the mental state and political motivations for the shooter will hopefully come to light soon. The attempt to paint this suspect as a leftist continues the far-right's use of anti-communism and anti-democratic rhetoric to cover-up their own role in continuing the hate until its logical violent conclusion.


It was Giffords father, 75-year-old Spencer Giffords, who wept when asked if his 40-year-old daughter had any enemies, and answered, "Yeah," to The New York Post, "The whole tea party."


This shooting marks a dangerous and sad day for our country. It's up to the American people to say, "Enough" to the hate, the racism, incitement to violence and the fascist-like behavior of anti-government thugs. Political violence and assassination has no place in our democracy.

[Comrade Wolfie's Very Nearly Banned Adventures]

This is NOT an issue of mental health-- this is an issue of big money right-wingers abetting and enabling this kind of act.

How do we know? We know because if mental illness is involved, such illness should be distributed throughout the population, so we should be seeing comfortable, liberal white people from the Democratic Party, left-wingers of every sort, blowing up anti-abortion offices, threatening the families of those congressional representatives and senatorswho voted against healthcare, shooting Coulter, Beck, O'Reilly in the street.

But we don't see that. Just as we didn't see black people blowing up 4 little white girls in church.

This occurs because the bourgeoisie, a portion of the ruling class enables it to happen.

I think you mis-interpreted what I said, the guy was clearly suffering from psychosis/paranoia, and the violent, insurrectionary rehetoric of the far right that is currently so prevlent in US society influenced him towards taking these actions, the Democrats don't use such inflammatory language, and doesn't really enourage violence. The issue is more complex than one lone right wing gun-nut.

[S.Artesian]

That might fly if in fact there wasn't, isn't an ongoing pattern-- stretching back to the Knights of the White Camelia attacking freed men and women, and reconstructionists in Louisiana.

Let me even be more clear: this is not about a psychotic paranoid acting on violent rhetoric of the right. This is about the ruling class maintaining its power, and occassionally losing control of the assassins it generates in everyday life.

This does not mean there is a conspiracy. There's no need for a conspiracy. Overtly, explicitly, time and time again, the bourgeoisie have maintained themselves by practicing terrorism.

It means when you create a Taliban, once in a while they blow up something that belongs to you too.

[Comrade Wolfie's Very Nearly Banned Adventures]

http://l28.sphotos.l3.fbcdn.net/hphotos-l3-snc6/hs071.snc6/168153_10150354888495654_574200653_16529396_530838 1_n.jpg

I think this picture sums up the tea partys approch to this incident, and the contradictoray nature of there rehetoric.

[S.Artesian]

http://l28.sphotos.l3.fbcdn.net/hphotos-l3-snc6/hs071.snc6/168153_10150354888495654_574200653_16529396_530838 1_n.jpg

I think this picture sums up the tea partys approch to this incident, and the contradictoray nature of there rehetoric.


There's no contradiction. This "against violence" is merely a mask for the real message, which is the picture of this vicious idiot with the gun.

[Rosa Lichtenstein]

Gary Younge in the Guardian:


Jared Loughner, the suspect in Saturday's shooting spree in Arizona, was not working alone. True, the rampage apparently emerged from his confused, unstable and troubled mind. But it was also the byproduct of a polarised political culture underpinned by increasingly vitriolic, violent and vituperative rhetoric and symbolism.

Fights outside town hall meetings, guns outside rallies, Facebook pages calling for assassinations, discussions about the most propitious moment for armed insurrection. In late October I asked a man in the quaint town of Salida, Colorado, if President Barack Obama had done anything worthwhile. "Well he's increased the guns and ammunitions industry exponentially," he said. "My friends are stockpiling."

To dismiss these as the voices and actions of the marginal was to miss the point and misunderstand the trend. America is more polarised under Obama than it has been in four decades: the week he was elected gun sales leapt 50% year on year.

Where the right is concerned the marginal and the mainstream have rapidly become blurred. Neither the Tea Party nor Obama created these divisions. But over the past two years they have intensified to an alarming degree. Polls last year revealed that a majority of Republicans believe Obama is a Muslim and a socialist who "wants to turn over the sovereignty of the United States to a one-world government" while two-thirds of Republicans either believe or are not sure that the president is "a racist who hates white people", and more than half believe or are not sure that "he was not born in the US" and that he "wants the terrorists to win".

In this alternative reality armed response becomes, if not logical, then at least debatable. After all, if Obama truly were a foreign-born, white-hating terrorist sympathiser who has usurped the presidency, drastic action would make sense. One anti-Obama campaigner carried a placard saying, "It is time to water the tree of liberty"– a reference to Thomas Jefferson's famous quote: "The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." It's the same quote Timothy McVeigh was wearing on his T-shirt when he was arrested for bombing the Federal Building in Oklahoma City, killing 168 people.

Moreover, many of these extreme views and much of this antagonistic tone is explicitly sustained and implicitly condoned by the Republican hierarchy. When a congressman shouts "liar" at Obama during his state of the union speech he receives a huge spike in donations. Sharron Angle, the Nevada Republican candidate who came close to ousting Democratic leader Harry Reid, once suggested "second amendment remedies" if the Congress continued on its path. The second amendment refers to the right to bear arms.In few places was the national atmosphere played out more dramatically than in the border state of Arizona. In April Raul Grijalva, in Gabrielle Giffords's adjacent constituency, faced bomb threats for opposing a new anti-immigration law. In October, his office was daubed with swastikas and white paint. In August she called police after a man dropped a gun at an event similar to the one she attended on Saturday. A few months ago Sarah Palin, targeting Giffords's marginal constituency, put the seat in crosshairs, and encouraged supporters to "reload and take aim". At the time Giffords explained: "The thing is, the way that she has it depicted — the crosshairs of a gun sight over our district — when people do that, they've got to realise that there's consequences for that action."

The connection between this rhetoric and Saturday's events are not causal but contextual. The shooter was not likely to be acting under direct instructions but in an atmosphere that made such an attack more likely rather than less. Whatever his motives, this was a targetted act of domestic political violence, and that scenario was not only predictable but widely predicted.

In April 2009 a homeland security report on rightwing extremism, Rightwing Extremism: Current Economic and Political Climate Fueling Resurgence in Radicalisation and Recruitment, concluded: "The economic downturn and the election of the first African-American president present unique drivers for rightwing radicalisation and recruitment."It also surmised that "rightwing extremist groups' frustration over a perceived lack of government action on illegal immigration has the potential to incite individuals or small groups toward violence."

As Giffords struggles for her life and the country mourns its dead some insist it is too soon to draw broader political conclusions from this tragedy. But if those conclusions had been understood sooner, it is possible that such a tragedy might have been prevented.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/jan/09/giffords-shooting-political-violence-polarised

Video:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/video/2010/oct/29/younge-america-great-divide

Lenin's Tomb:


Republican reactionaries and their business and media allies have spent years winding people up, filling the public with hysterical, poisonous shit about black communist welfare queen drug mules taking over the country. The corporate-funded Tea Party crowd are largely white, more than averagely well-off yanks who believe - have been fervently told - that the country belongs to them and them alone. Hence, take it back. Hence, the batshit 'birther' insanity, and Palin's 'real America', and the vigorous promotion of John Birch Society bile in the shape of Glenn Beck. They're trying to make a large section of the public as irrational as possible, fill their heads with racial conspiracies, turn every last white man and woman who still has a house and two cars into a potential minuteman, ku klux or vigilante.

I think it's a logical corollary of a particularly vicious phase of capital accumulation. As more and more wealth has been transferred to the rich and welfare programmes curtailed, the state has dealt with the breakdown of working class communities by criminalising their condition in various ways. In addition to manning the iron gates of private property, the state has sought other ways to sweep up and jail the social refuse: penalising drug-users and the homeless, for example. The necessary supplement has been the pornographic spectacle of punishment, of sadistic denigration, of fearful othering, such that no punishment is enough.

This deliberate, calculated brutalisation of political language has been taking place for years, and the accompanying trend has been for a lunatic petit bourgeoisie to become more and more deranged. The 'Tea Party', yes, represents a minority which US law enforcement could contain if it wanted to. But it is acting as an accomplice of the ruling class as that same class wages a bitter war to prevent even moderately social democratic forces from emerging from this recession, to stop even the mildest gain for the working class. It is doing so partly because the petit bourgoisie would rather lose all its wealth in another all-consuming crisis than share it with the dirt who, after all, caused this crisis with their feckless borrowing.

So, in light of that, who cares if Jared Lee Loughner looked on Sarah Palin's website, or heard a speech Sharron Angle made? It was enough for him to exist in a particular context of American life, in this era. It was enough to live in Arizona, where the murders took place, and which has been nominated by a local County Sheriff as "the Mecca for prejudice and bigotry". That would have been more than sufficient to drive a vulnerable man out of his mind. And it isn't as if the idea of political assassination had to be suggested to him by osmosis or innuendo. Palin is often quite explicit when she wants an enemy of the 'real America', the pristine white America of lore, to be assassinated. So is Pat Robertson, you may recall. Assassination is as American as the hackneyed patriotic schtick that often seems to motivate it. This isn't about the gallows humour of the Republican right which consists precisely of knowing, wink-wink in-jokes (gun-sight imagery, 'Reload', and so on) about the barbarism that already exists, and which they have done so much to cultivate. It's about what the jokes advert to. The problem is not whether and how to domesticate political language, as some have wrongly assumed, but how to fight back against the political forces that are fomenting this bilious filth. The first step here, I think, would be to prevent the Republicans from shutting down discussion of the political dimensions of this crime.

http://leninology.blogspot.com/2011/01/debatable.html

[Sasha]

This is NOT an issue of mental health-- this is an issue of big money right-wingers abetting and enabling this kind of act.

How do we know? We know because if mental illness is involved, such illness should be distributed throughout the population, so we should be seeing comfortable, liberal white people from the Democratic Party, left-wingers of every sort, blowing up anti-abortion offices, threatening the families of those congressional representatives and senatorswho voted against healthcare, shooting Coulter, Beck, O'Reilly in the street.

But we don't see that. Just as we didn't see black people blowing up 4 little white girls in church.

This occurs because the bourgeoisie, a portion of the ruling class enables it to happen.

at least thats something thats overhere seem to be finaly getting in to the thick skulls of the liberals again, the "extreme" left burns cars and maybe an McDonalds, the extreme right burns immigrant shelters with the immigrants still in them. You cant just equal them all under "extremism"

[Nolan]

at least thats something thats overhere seem to be finaly getting in to the thick skulls of the liberals again, the "extreme" left burns cars and maybe an McDonalds, the extreme right burns immigrant shelters with the immigrants still in them. You cant just equal them all under "extremism"

Or you can be like Glenn Beck and call them all "left."

[human strike]

Speaking of Glenn Beck, is this image real?

http://l28.sphotos.l3.fbcdn.net/hphotos-l3-snc6/hs071.snc6/168153_10150354888495654_574200653_16529396_530838 1_n.jpg

[KurtFF8]

That image may be real but I'm sure it was unintentional.

Anyway, What do you all think of Jon Stewart's comments? http://www.thedailyshow.com/watch/mon-january-10-2011/arizona-shootings-reaction

It seems he's taking his "let's just be less partisan" centrism even further with his comments on the situation. He talks about not politicizing events like this and how he doesn't like the political climate, yet he ignores the political origins of the political climate.

I think he only good point he made was that the media rhetoric shouldn't be so indistinguishable from a disturbed individual.

[theAnarch]

Actully I think trotsky wrote a great article on a similar situation in 1939.



It is clear to anyone even slightly acquainted with political history that the policy of the fascist gangsters directly and sometimes deliberately provokes terrorist acts. What is most astonishing is that so far there has been only one Grynszpan. Undoubtedly the number of such acts will increase.
We Marxists consider the tactic of individual terror inexpedient in the tasks of the liberating struggle of the proletariat as well as oppressed nationalities. A single isolated hero cannot replace the masses. But we understand only too clearly the inevitability of such convulsive acts of despair and vengeance. All our emotions, all our sympathies are with the self-sacrificing avengers even though they have been unable to discover the correct road. Our sympathy becomes intensified because Grynszpan is not a political militant but an inexperienced youth, almost a boy, whose only counselor was a feeling of indignation. To tear Grynszpan out of the hands of capitalist justice, which is capable of chopping off his head to further serve capitalist diplomacy, is the elementary, immediate task of the international working class!
All the more revolting in its police stupidity and inexpressible violence is the campaign now being conducted against Grynszpan by command of the Kremlin in the international Stalinist press. They attempt to depict him as an agent of the Nazis or an agent of Trotskyists in alliance with the Nazis. Lumping into one heap the provocateur and his victim, the Stalinists ascribe to Grynszpan the intention of creating a favorable pretext for Hitler’s pogrom measures. What can one say of these venal “journalists” who no longer have any vestiges of shame? Since the beginning of the socialist movement the bourgeoisie has at all times attributed all violent demonstrations of indignation, particularly terrorist acts, to the degenerating influence of Marxism. The Stalinists have inherited, here as elsewhere, the filthiest tradition of reaction. The Fourth International may, justifiably, be proud that the reactionary scum, including the Stalinists, now automatically links with the Fourth International every bold action and protest, every indignant outburst, every blow at the executioners.
It was so, similarly, with the International of Marx in its time. We are bound, naturally, by ties of open moral solidarity to Grynszpan and not to his “democratic” jailers, or the Stalinist slanderers, who need Grynszpan’s corpse to prop up, even if only partially and indirectly, the verdicts of Moscow justice. Kremlin diplomacy, degenerated to its marrow, attempts at the same time to utilize this “happy” incident to renew their machinations for an international agreement among various governments, including that of Hitler and Mussolini, for a mutual extradition of terrorists. Beware, masters of fraud! The application of such a law will necessitate the immediate deliverance of Stalin to at least a dozen foreign governments.
The Stalinists shriek in the ears of the police that Grynszpan attended “meetings of Trotskyites.” That, unfortunately, is not true. For had he walked into the milieu of the Fourth International he would have discovered a different and more effective outlet for his revolutionary energy. People come cheap who are capable only of fulminating against injustice and bestiality. But those who, like Grynszpan, are able to act as well as conceive, sacrificing their own lives if need be, are the precious leaven of mankind.
In the moral sense, although not for his mode of action, Grynszpan may serve as an example for every young revolutionist. Our open moral solidarity with Grynszpan gives us an added right to say to all the other would-be Grynszpans, to all those capable of self-sacrifice in the struggle against despotism and bestiality: Seek another road! Not the lone avenger but only a great revolutionary mass movement can free the oppressed, a movement that will leave no remnant of the entire structure of class exploitation, national oppression, and racial persecution. The unprecedented crimes of fascism create a yearning for vengeance that is wholly justifiable. But so monstrous is the scope of their crimes, that this yearning cannot be satisfied by the assassination of isolated fascist bureaucrats. For that it is necessary to set in motion millions, tens and hundreds of millions of the oppressed throughout the whole world and lead them in the assault upon the strongholds of the old society. Only the overthrow of all forms of slavery, only the complete destruction of fascism, only the people sitting in merciless judgment over the contemporary bandits and gangsters can provide real satisfaction to the indignation of the people. This is precisely the task that the Fourth International has set itself. It will cleanse the labor movement of the plague of Stalinism. It will rally in its ranks the heroic generation of the youth. It will cut a path to a worthier and a more humane future.

[Diello]

Speaking of Glenn Beck, is this image real?

I can't get it to come up. I've been f5ing for about five minutes and all I've gotten is Beck dressed up as things like Uncle Sam and George Washington. *vomits copiously*

Still, it could have been there previously.

And there's one of him dressed up as a Soviet military officer. HAHAHAHAHA IRONY HAHAHAHA HOW WITTY

[Red Commissar]

Police Mugshot of Loughner:

http://news.bbcimg.co.uk/media/images/50739000/jpg/_50739682_wfvl.jpg

[Martin Blank]

Police Mugshot of Loughner:

http://news.bbcimg.co.uk/media/images/50739000/jpg/_50739682_wfvl.jpg

Somewhere on the Internet, a meme generator just committed suicide.

[Sasha]

nice:

http://www.thestranger.com/images/blogimages/2011/01/11/thumb-1294775590-crosshairsstrangercover2.jpg

[Bad Grrrl Agro]

Fuckin' Mexicans...
Yeah, those Mexicans wir thieving ma crops last night...:rolleyes:

I'm gonna be hearing the talkin' show on ma talkin' box an them mexicaners ar tryin' to take our country, our flag and our god.:laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh:

[Political_Chucky]

Police Mugshot of Loughner:

http://news.bbcimg.co.uk/media/images/50739000/jpg/_50739682_wfvl.jpg

http://blogs.orlandosentinel.com/.a/6a00d83451c3cb69e20120a510d7dc970b-800wi


Holy shit!

[Unclebananahead]

Teabaggery taken to its logical conclusion mayhaps?

[Os Cangaceiros]

Honestly, the more I hear about this guy on the news, the more I'm skeptical of the idea that he was motivated by anything other than "losing his rabbit-ass mind", in the words of someone I know. The apparent loony nature of the individual (his neighbors said he used to wander up and down the street endlessly, talking to himself) combined with no coherent ideology (right-wing commentators have described him as the "pot smoking atheist who loves Mein Kampf and The Communist Manifesto") leads me to that conclusion, more than anything else.

[Chicano Shamrock]

I have the same skepticism. Where is everyone getting this teabag stuff from?

[S.Artesian]

So... it's just an accident that a congresswoman who had a rifle scope crosshairs placed on her district by Palin got shot? That a congresswoman who was receiving increasing death threats as time went on due to her political stance got shot?

It's just a random event that the congresswoman who's office door was shot or kicked in after voting for healthcare and other various things got shot?

It's just a random thing that the judge who decided a bit of due process to immigrants got shot?

And it's just an accident that it happened in Arizona, and it happened after various other threats and assaults had been carried out on others who supported healthcare?

That's a lot of randomness.

[Os Cangaceiros]

Well, any kind of immigration tie-in doesn't make that much sense here, as Giffords herself was somewhat of a hardliner on that issue, as well, despite being a Democrat (although her stance makes sense politically considering her district). I haven't really seen anything that indicates to me that this shooter was motivated by healthcare, or Sarah Palin, or anything else GOP or Tea Party-related. He was a supposedly unstable individual, though, and his former classmates/teachers worried that he'd bring a gun into class and kill everyone.

I mean, you could chalk his act up to "the increasingly divided political climate", but something like that seems impossible to calculate accurately, as far as what kind of effect it really had on him.

[S.Artesian]

Funny, you're assuming this guy, who you think is a not job, is rational enough to distinguish between a "hard-line Democrat" and a "soft" Democrat. He doesn't make those distinctions, just like those who talk like him, think Worldwide Wrestling Smackdowns are the way we should run the country, don't make those distinctions.


Still do you really think all of this was just a random event? Just a matter of chance that this guy chose this target, just out of his own insanity and not because of politics?

[Os Cangaceiros]

I don't know. I'm just wary of making any hasty statements about just why or why not he commited this act.

I remember a similar slaughter in 2009, in Binghamton NY (I was in NY at the time, and it was pretty big news) which killed twice as many people as the shooting in Arizona. A gunman opened fire in an immigrant services center, and a lot of people speculated early about if this had something to do with the increasing divisive rhetoric regarding illegal immigration, which the right was trying to bring to the forefront of political discourse. But it turned out that it was the work of a Vietnamese immigrant with serious mental health issues, and was not a politically-motived act.

[Chicano Shamrock]

Funny, you're assuming this guy, who you think is a not job, is rational enough to distinguish between a "hard-line Democrat" and a "soft" Democrat. He doesn't make those distinctions, just like those who talk like him, think Worldwide Wrestling Smackdowns are the way we should run the country, don't make those distinctions.


Still do you really think all of this was just a random event? Just a matter of chance that this guy chose this target, just out of his own insanity and not because of politics?

"What is the purpose of government if words have no meaning?"

That was the question he supposedly asked of Giffords at a rally in 2007. When she didn't answer it he became infuriated. That doesn't seem to be a teabagger talking point to me. Some of his stuff could be seen as being affected by the teabaggers but I'm not so sure.

I think it's all a bit quick to hop on the teabagging thing.

[Dimentio]

I have the same skepticism. Where is everyone getting this teabag stuff from?

Gold standard?

[Political_Chucky]

I don't believe the killer has some ideology issues, and I don't even think what he has done relates totally to the tea party, but they most definitely have had SOME influence. From what I can tell by what is being said in the media, he has some weird perverted view of Anti-government stance that is some where right-wingish. He doesn't seem to make any sense though and is clearly insane, but the rhetoric as many analysts have said has not helped in this case, especially with the situation in Arizona. The man who tried to attack the ACLU last year, the man who drove his plane into the IRS building, the man who killed a Muslim Taxi driver, who were all WHITE suspects were all WHITE suspects who were clearly not psychologically right(If any of these men had Mohammed as their first name, they would have clearly been classified as a terrorist by the media and their ethnic and racial back round would have been talked much more in the media). I don't agree with everything Cenk says on TYT, but it comes pretty damn close I believe.

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[Martin Blank]

Honestly, the more I hear about this guy on the news, the more I'm skeptical of the idea that he was motivated by anything other than "losing his rabbit-ass mind", in the words of someone I know.

Time to turn off the propaganda ... err, I mean, news. This is what they want people to think. They don't want the public making the connection between the fascist Nativists and Loughner, because doing so would make "mainstreaming" their politics that much more difficult. Furthermore, they want the public preaching the Gospel of St. Jon Stewart the Inane: the "left" and "right" are equally crazy and dangerous; love the crazed fascist who wants to kill you, for he or she is only "mentally unstable".


The apparent loony nature of the individual (his neighbors said he used to wander up and down the street endlessly, talking to himself) combined with no coherent ideology (right-wing commentators have described him as the "pot smoking atheist who loves Mein Kampf and The Communist Manifesto") leads me to that conclusion, more than anything else.

Forest. Trees. Etc.

1. The capitalist media is cherry-picking the "news" you get, as we all know they do. Anecdotes about Loughner's insanity become headlines while information about his politics disappear down the rabbit hole. And none of us can attest to the veracity of the anecdotes presented as immutable fact, unlike with the written statements of Loughner and their obvious political connections.

2. The meme about Loughner having "no coherent ideology" is another media creation. And it is a lie. If we put aside the mention of the Communist Manifesto (a meaningless point, since there are no other pieces of concrete evidence to account for its presence), we are left with a picture of an angry white male who is fascinated by rightwing literature (Mein Kampf, We the Living, Brave New World -- even Animal Farm is popular among anti-government rightwingers) expressed a number of far-right talking points in his stated views:


Rejection of the Federal Reserve currency because it is not backed by gold and silver
Condemnation of the "Second Constitution" (i.e., the post-Civil War Constitution, which includes the 13th and 14th Amendments)
Reverence for the 10th Amendment, which is the political basis for "state's rights" advocates
Insistence that the government is controlling thought through control of the language

Moreover, there are links between Loughner and the fascist American Renaissance magazine, which is a "right refoundation" publication that is popular within the Tea Party Nativist movement.

3. Making hay out of Loughner's "pot smoking" is also ridiculous. Loughner stopped his marijuana use at least months ago (I can't recall exactly how long ago it was -- may have been right after he left high school in 2007). I would think that if he had kept smoking weed, this wouldn't have happened.

We all need to take a step back and stop overdosing on the bourgeois media. They are feeding people an "official line" ... and most people are gladly swallowing it. And this includes a lot of our comrades, and our class brothers and sisters. We have to be the ones to break through the media assault and keep people focused.

Backing off of emphasizing the political nature of this act will only create (expand!) an analytical vacuum that the Nativist fascists and corporatists will gladly fill with lies, falsehoods and passivity-creating pablum.

[Martin Blank]

P.S.: Loughner's Facebook page, before it was pulled, listed Glenn Beck and Sarah Palin as inspirations. Oh no, his politics are "confused". :rolleyes:

[Tomhet]

Does anyone else feel this will be used as an excuse to ramp up national security?

[Iraultzaile Ezkerreko]

Does anyone else feel this will be used as an excuse to ramp up national security?
It is. But we have to ramp up our efforts to get the message out about the right-wing basis for this shooting rampage and the link between the far-right racists and almost all political violence in the United States. This is not the first time and it will not be the last, not until the system of bourgeois control of production, the media, and "mainstream" politics has been torn down and exposed for the inherently exploitative and violent system it is.

Despite the fact that this was an attack against the current system of capital from a much different direction, they will use it to clamp down on everyone. We have to fight it, while at the same time fighting the reactionaries who inspire this kind of violence.

[Tomhet]

Why is it bad to make tactical alliances though? Let's be realistic the ruling class is VERY strong, does it not make sense to ally with reactionaries to take the ruling class down, and then disposing of reactionaries and reactionary elements? So long as the reactionaries are at all times submissive to the common man, as Chairman Mao pointed out.. (I hate using the word 'proletariat' it seems so outdated)..

[Iraultzaile Ezkerreko]

Those aren't the alliances I'm interested in making. You make alliances with community groups on specific subjects, but the reactionaries only agree with us on one thing, the current system is fucked up, but they have come to this conclusion for ALL the WRONG reasons. That is not an alliance worth making. Reactionaries must be fought, just as the system must be. Our alliances should be made with those who are fighting for change and should try to bring forward our critique of the system in order to win more to revolutionary politics and build a truly mass organization which can finally destroy the system itself and the class politics of capitalism which help reactionary groups arise.

[Martin Blank]

http://www.zazzle.com/workers_self_defense_t_shirt-235315821515498563

This is something we've put together as an agitational item. I'm posting it not to try to get comrades to buy them (though if you want to, that's cool), but to give an example of what I think we all should be doing to counter the rightwing "official line".

[KurtFF8]

Why is it bad to make tactical alliances though? Let's be realistic the ruling class is VERY strong, does it not make sense to ally with reactionaries to take the ruling class down, and then disposing of reactionaries and reactionary elements? So long as the reactionaries are at all times submissive to the common man, as Chairman Mao pointed out.. (I hate using the word 'proletariat' it seems so outdated)..

What alliances are you talking about? With right-wing folks who are willing to randomly fire into a crowd which leads to the murder of a few folks including a 9 year old child? No thanks.