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View Full Version : Idealism = The Problem with Islamophobia



Dimentio
8th January 2011, 12:58
Let me firstly begin with stating that some of the criticism delivered against the religion of Islam by Islamophobes or people who are upheld as Islamophobes is indeed correct.

It is correct that Islam is a religion and an ideology which in it's purest form requires that all segments of society are put in a subservient relationship to that ideology.

It is also correct that Islam is based around the idea of world conquest. While not necessarily all people are going to be muslims, the global Islamic Caliphate should rule over all people, muslims as non-muslims.

It is correct that Islam is a sexist, misogynist religion where women are subservient to men. It is correct that in countries with Shar'iah law, brutal and inhumane punishments are usual and mandated through the law.

Islam is an anti-human, biophobic religion which if implemented correctly would entail the death of creativity and progress (and don't bring up the Abbasid renaissance, that had as much to do with Islam as enlightenment had to with Christianity).

This is why the Western World - according to Islamophobes - need to stand with Israel and occupy Iraq and Afghanistan, eventually starting wars against Iran, to defend the "western values" and the people of the west against the "hordes of Islam" (Islamophobes seem to hold LOTR and 300 in high esteem).

This is a typical Islamophobic website, I would claim the archetypical Islamophobic website ~ http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/

The Islamophobes base their reasoning on several errors, which we need to deconstruct and be able to argument against in a better way. I will begin with deconstructing their gravest error first.

I. Idealism

The Islamophobes base their reasoning around Idealism, that the intentions and actions of muslims could be based entirely around the Quran and the Hadiths and that the reasons for militant muslims to conduct their activities are guided by a world conquest paradigm.

Often, they seem to think of the Islamic World as some kind of giant, brown monolith with tentacles going back and forth, ignoring the fact that there is hardly any region where the countries hate one another more than in the Islamic World, and that most governments there are corrupt pro-western police states.

They ignore the situation in Palestine and in most Islamic countries, and instead see the poverty and humiliation as a cause of the "barbarism" of Islam rather than a complex set of circumstances where colonialism has had more influence.

If there wasn't Radical Islamism, the Islamic World would have embraced some other militant, anti-western-hegemony ideology such as Maoism, Arab Nationalism or something else.

In short, the war between some radical muslims and the USA/Israel is not caused by Islamism, but Islamism is largely caused by the war.

II. Idealism again

Does the Islamic world constitute a military threat against anyone?

Answer: No.

Even if all muslims in their hearts desired the absolute conquest of the entire world and it's submission under Shar'iah, and to rape all western women and then stone them (which is the Islamophobic caricature of a muslim), it won't necessitate military interventions due to the fact that they don't have the capacity to do that.

There are some very technologically primitive nations around which have racial superiority theories, such as the Massai, who teach that all the cows in the world are the property of the Massai. According to Islamophobic logic, it would be necessary to take out the Massai due to the fear of "them stealing our cows".

Taken to the schoolyard, this logic would entail the gang of popular kids preemptively attacking the unpopular kids and the nerds/geeks because they might harbour resentment.

III. I might loot, rape and pillage, but you - YOU are a bad human being!

In fact, there is an eerie similarity between radical islamists like bin Laden and the Islamophobes in the aspect of "moral supremacy". The only difference is that the Islamophobes (who most often are westerners) actually have the capacity to cause more damage and suffering would they have more influence.

In short, Islamophobes sometimes use the relative (real or perceived) underdevelopment of the Islamic World as an argument for treating them as inferiors.

For example, a usual argument from Pro-Israeli hawks is that Israel is a technological wonderland in comparison with the Islamic World, and therefore has the moral right.

That is actually a rehash of old colonialist arguments and is reeking of notions which should have been buried before 1945. With the same argument, we could defend the British occupation of Kenya or the German occupation of Poland.

No matter if the peoples of the Arab world defecated in their own pants, ate dirt and threw their faeces on westerners, would there be any right to ignore their claim to the right to govern their ancestral lands. No matter if they were cannibals and still worshipped Baal, arranging live child sacrifices, would there be any excuse to establish mandates over them.

None! Ever!

Not even if they were nazis. Because (II.) intent is not the same as the capacity to follow that intent.

IV. Muslims = The Zerg


Islamophobes are using specific "glasses" when observing the world, which is impairing their capacity to judge reality. As we have already established, the prime weakness of the Islamic World is the disunity of the Islamic countries.

Internally, most states in the Islamic World are also weak authoritarian states where the governments lack the ability to govern without foreign support and the ability to stay in power without oppressing their population, which has given rise to a reactionary right-wing radical Islamist movement which is their equivalent to the Fascism of 1920's Italy. These states have one concern, and that is survival.

The Islamophobes don't see that though.

They see a homogenous mass of hundreds of millions of people uniformly adhering to Allah, who are not motivated by actual rational (if misplaced) judgements, but by sheer fanaticism and a sort of hive mind.

For Islamophobes, an islamist who is blowing himself to death in a Mosque in Iraq is doing it just because... well, because.

They see muslim immigrants as sleeper agents who want to give birth to as many children as possible to islamise western societies.

They see the muslims as a collective who share the same interests, notions, prejudices and fears.

V. Conclusion, Islamophobia is the most dangerous ideology in the west today

Islamophobia is rapidly growing, and is increasing cultural tensions both within European countries and between European countries and other countries, and it is partially utilised (in terms of foreign intervention) and partially discarded (as xenophobia).

It is caused by unemployment and destitution of communities following deindustrialisation.

http://www.gendercide.org/images/pics/graves6.jpg

This is Srebrenica, the worst massacre in Europe after WW2.

Islamophobia is not about criticism of Islam, but about hatred against muslims, because it is drawn around racist and supremacist conclusions about muslims and is only working as a rallying cry if you assume that muslims somehow rather are insects than human beings.

Islamophobia might lead to another Holocaust in Europe in ten or twenty years.

ComradeMan
8th January 2011, 13:02
Some of the biggest Islamophobes are radical islamist/religionists.

If huge amounts of oil were not located in "Islamic" regions there would be no problem with Islam.

Dimentio
8th January 2011, 13:07
Amongst liberal anti-racists, there is also an interesting feature which explains their reluctance to go against Islamophobia.

The reason for that is basically why they have chosen this as the logo of WWF:

http://www.clarkmorgan.com/en/images/stories/client/wwf-logo.jpg

Rather than this:

http://www.news.org.bd/wp-content/uploads/2008/12/shark1113.jpg

Liberals are about as racist as reactionaries, only that they usually use cuddly stereotypes of the peoples they want to protect.

Jews for example are cute pre-teen girls writing diaries and hiding from evil men in black boots.

Black African slaves in the USA are nice older men who read their bibles and are happy and easy-going.

Native Americans are having feathers and the Tibetans are wearing orange robes.

Muslims are not associated with any cuddly or sweet stereotypes, and could not be reduced to something non-threatening.

Of course, these stereotypes have nothing to do with reality, but the western notion of the world is so ingrained in idealism and in "popular images" that it is the only thing that is moving people.

Dimentio
8th January 2011, 13:10
Some of the biggest Islamophobes are radical islamist/religionists.

Actually, bin Laden's Islam is pretty much 7th century Islam, but with some more acceptance for suicide. That is not the issue though.

Modern Salafism, Islamism and Khomeinism are basically petty-bourgeois reactions against the status quo of most muslim countries. Usually, members of such organisations are the sons of business owners, doctors, teachers and have university degrees. It is their equivalent to fascism.

The left has spent too much time trying to defend Islam and not enough time defending muslims.

ComradeMan
8th January 2011, 13:12
Anything that really relies on national stereotypes is in a sense racist notwithstanding from whom it is coming.

http://thm-a01.yimg.com/nimage/3c2bd3b64fad9624 (http://uk.wrs.yahoo.com/_ylt=A0WTf22YYihNMjkAlclNBQx.;_ylu=X3oDMTBpdDZuNzZ rBHBvcwM5BHNlYwNzcgR2dGlkAw--/SIG=1h9i5grke/EXP=1294521112/**http%3a//uk.images.search.yahoo.com/images/view%3fback=http%253A%252F%252Fuk.images.search.ya hoo.com%252Fsearch%252Fimages%253Fp%253Dmario%2526 ei%253DUTF-8%2526fr%253Dslv8-tyc7%2526fr2%253Dtab-web%26w=400%26h=400%26imgurl=www.smrpglegacy.com%2 52FPM%252520TTYD%252520Artwork%252Fmario2.jpg%26ru rl=http%253A%252F%252Fwww.e-shopping.ne.jp%252Fkeyword%253Fkey%253Dmario%26siz e=67k%26name=mario2%2bjpg%26p=mario%26oid=3c2bd3b6 4fad9624%26fr2=tab-web%26no=9%26tt=8716578%26sigr=11dpc7b48%26sigi=11 i1q182q%26sigb=12pip7o9e%26.crumb=w1Bpl.I6G9t)
http://www.mugshotalley.com/wp-content/uploads/al-capone-mugshot-4.jpg

Dimentio
8th January 2011, 13:22
Contexts are changing.

For example, a Swede in the 1950's who point at a black man and happily exclaims "negro" is not necessarily a racist, because Swedes didn't understand the context of that word in the USA nor have any experience with minorities to any large degree.

Also, a series like Sopranos is not necessarily racist against Italian-Americans, because due to WW2 and the Civil Rights Movement, white on white racism in the USA was greatly reduced. For example on Stormfront, you will probably find it quite rare that they are rallying against the Irish, the Poles or the Italians, and that many of their members even might be having Irish, Polish and Italian roots.

It is true that the Mafia usually have defended it's existence with some kind of "libertarian" Sicilian national culture, thus utilising the racist conception of South Italians amongst North Italians, but everyone with a hint of insight into Sicilian history know that the Mafia was a result of the decay of public order in the late Bourbon Dynasty and institutionalised themselves through a reign of fear well until the last decade.

Black Sheep
8th January 2011, 13:23
Did not read the whole thing.Too long.
However i will comment on some stuff.

Does the Islamic world constitute a military threat against anyone?
That is irrelevant.Anti-islamists such as myself (where anti-islam is a subgroup of anti-religion) oppose islam, because of the introductory horrid facts about it you mentioned above.That's it.


III. I might loot, rape and pillage, but you - YOU are a bad human being!
Again irrelevant.I am not a cappie,an imperialist, a "go murica, goo!" neocon, so i wonder why you would post this as a statement to leftists.
Of course, i will take into account the material conditions that led to islamist extremism, that mantain it and take advantage of it,and my analysis will lead to the best plan i can devise to deal with the problem.Leftist-wise, the plan is a communist revolution,so that's that.


The Islamophobes base their reasoning around Idealism, that the intentions and actions of muslims could be based entirely around the Quran and the Hadiths and that the reasons for militant muslims to conduct their activities are guided by a world conquest paradigm.
True.The problem here though is idealism,which leads to various delusions, including xenophobia, enemy branding and islamophobia.
However, i doubt you'd call Israelis "palestinophobes", jerusalem muslims "jewphobes" etc, because their view is warped and distorted by imperialism and its zeitgeist.
So explain to me why you have to invent a special word, for distorted view against islam.


You and several others i think do suffer of the north korea syndrome,in the sense that you view and equate communist critics of islam with the worst version of cliche nationalist xenophobic bullcrap,and i wish you'd stop.
When we criticise NK as commies, we are not "in cahoots with global imperialism", and when criticising Islam as anti-theists/atheists/seculars, we're not "xenophobic islamophobe idealists".

Sam_b
8th January 2011, 14:08
I think Black Sheep has missed the point on a lot of what has been said.

This is not surprising when he feels the need to comment on a political theory and debate website, despite not reading what has been said in it's entirety as it was 'too long'.

ComradeMan
8th January 2011, 14:16
It is true that the Mafia usually have defended it's existence with some kind of "libertarian" Sicilian national culture, thus utilising the racist conception of South Italians amongst North Italians, but everyone with a hint of insight into Sicilian history know that the Mafia was a result of the decay of public order in the late Bourbon Dynasty and institutionalised themselves through a reign of fear well until the last decade.

You being frank about the business? :lol:
:cool:

but everyone with a hint of insight into Sicilian history

I agree with you, but the trouble is with all the people who don't have insights into things.... if you understand me.

Re Islam, I just think it's sad that the culture that did so much for mathematics, science and the preservation of Western civilisation (dark ages, destruction of classical texts etc) and contributed much to art, civilisation and so on has now been reduced to fanaticism and hatred.

The city of Cordoba had street lighting and was a cradle of civilisation when much of Europe had open sewage running down the streets of their cities.


I think Black Sheep has missed the point on a lot of what has been said. This is not surprising when he feels the need to comment on a political theory and debate website, despite not reading what has been said in it's entirety as it was 'too long'.

Come on Sam, Dimentio's article was of Tolstoyan dimentions... LOL!!! ;)

Dimentio
8th January 2011, 14:27
Again irrelevant.I am not a cappie,an imperialist, a "go murica, goo!" neocon, so i wonder why you would post this as a statement to leftists.
Of course, i will take into account the material conditions that led to islamist extremism, that mantain it and take advantage of it,and my analysis will lead to the best plan i can devise to deal with the problem.Leftist-wise, the plan is a communist revolution,so that's that.


True.The problem here though is idealism,which leads to various delusions, including xenophobia, enemy branding and islamophobia.
However, i doubt you'd call Israelis "palestinophobes", jerusalem muslims "jewphobes" etc, because their view is warped and distorted by imperialism and its zeitgeist.
So explain to me why you have to invent a special word, for distorted view against islam.


You and several others i think do suffer of the north korea syndrome,in the sense that you view and equate communist critics of islam with the worst version of cliche nationalist xenophobic bullcrap,and i wish you'd stop.
When we criticise NK as commies, we are not "in cahoots with global imperialism", and when criticising Islam as anti-theists/atheists/seculars, we're not "xenophobic islamophobe idealists".

I did not equate you with Islamophobes, though I think that critics of Islam should take a firm anti-racist stand, merely because Islamophobes tend to take ammunition from them.

Critic of Islam: "Islam is a backward, reactionary ideology based around submission and misoginy."

Islamophobe: "Islam is a backward, reactionary ideology based around submission and misoginy. The muslims are immigrating to Europe to have many kids to install Shar'iah law and they are attacking Israel, just like they attacked Vienna in 1683, with the help of Dhimmi politicians like Bush and Obama and leftist-biased media, gays, lesbians and feminists! Eurabia! Gates of Vienna! TINFOIL! CHAAAAARGE! SAVE CHRISTIANITY! SAVE THE WEST! SAVE THE WESTERN MALE!"

There is also a scale between these two outlooks, defined by a name: Pat Condell, who has moved from mere criticism to raging Islamophobia.

Sam_b
8th January 2011, 14:27
A common misconception! I regard some of Tolstoy's shorter pieces, in particular The Cossacks, as being some of his finest work.

[/Slavonic Student]

ComradeMan
8th January 2011, 14:32
A common misconception! I regard some of Tolstoy's shorter pieces, in particular The Cossacks, as being some of his finest work.

[/Slavonic Student]

Sarcastic infidel!!! :lol: