Could someone explain "straight edge" to me?

[ÑóẊîöʼn]

Because it seems utterly bonkers, but maybe that's just my twisted perspective as a life-long hedonist.

As far as I can tell, traditional religion has nothing to do with it, although I would not be surprised if it originated in the US, which has always had a certain Puritan streak to its culture. In the discussions of straight edge I've seen, health reasons don't seem to feature prominently, and besides it is entirely possible to consume various intoxicants in moderation without undue adverse effects on one's health.

What's the straight edge position on sex? What about other activities that produce a drug-like reward signal in the brain, such as playing computer games, eating really rich/tasty food and such? Those kind of activities use similar neural pathways, so if a distinction is made by straight edgers then it must be for a reason other than biology.

So, why be straight ege?

[Pirate Utopian]

Because merely being vegan doesnt nearly give them enough moral highground (in their own eyes).

[Fawkes]

Because it seems utterly bonkers, but maybe that's just my twisted perspective as a life-long hedonist.

As far as I can tell, traditional religion has nothing to do with it, although I would not be surprised if it originated in the US, which has always had a certain Puritan streak to its culture. In the discussions of straight edge I've seen, health reasons don't seem to feature prominently, and besides it is entirely possible to consume various intoxicants in moderation without undue adverse effects on one's health.

What's the straight edge position on sex? What about other activities that produce a drug-like reward signal in the brain, such as playing computer games, eating really rich/tasty food and such? Those kind of activities use similar neural pathways, so if a distinction is made by straight edgers then it must be for a reason other than biology.

So, why be straight ege?

It originated out of the Washington, D.C. hardcore punk scene of the early 80s. The "founders" of it were Minor Threat, particularly singer Ian MacKaye. They wrote a song called "Straight Edge" which eventually became an anthem for the straight edge movement, something MacKaye never intended/wanted. He chose to abstain from drug and alcohol usage as he saw it as unenlightened, hedonistic, and a symbol of 1970s rock and roll excess; he didn't feel a need to drink/do drugs to have fun/say or do what he wanted, and thought people that relied on those things were pathetic. He also was against the notion of sex as a conquest, not sex itself. The whole symbolism of putting Xs on one's hands with a permanent marker emerged from teenage punks in D.C. wanting to go to shows that were at 21+ venues. They managed to make deals with the bar management that said that they would put Xs on their hands to show they weren't drinking and were just there for the show.

MacKaye had no intention or desire of turning straight edge into a movement or a religion, but that's what has happened. His philosophy has largely become perverted by people that view it in this authoritative way that "if you drink or do drugs, we'll kick your ass". Not all sXe are like that, but that's the modern stereotype. There are a lot of different interpretations of what it means to be edge, but what originally started as a pretty enlightened personal philosophy has become a dogmatic religion for a lot of people, though definitely not everyone.

[Lobotomy]

EDIT: Fawkes beat me to it before I had noticed, but oh well.

I believe it started with the band Minor Threat in Washington, DC in the 80s. At the time, the hardcore punk scene was infamously a culture of drugs, promiscuous sex, and all that fun stuff. The lead singer of Minor Threat, Ian MacKaye, coined the term "straight edge" in an attempt to speak out against what he saw as destructive behaviors, and wrote about it in his lyrics. Perhaps somebody could correct me on that bit of history but I think that's the jist of it. At this point it's become not much more than a trendy self-righteous label that isn't taken seriously, and its meaning sort of depends on who you ask. I think most would say it's just their idea of a healthy lifestyle.


What's the straight edge position on sex? What about other activities that produce a drug-like reward signal in the brain, such as playing computer games, eating really rich/tasty food and such? Those kind of activities use similar neural pathways, so if a distinction is made by straight edgers then it must be for a reason other than biology.

I think most are opposed to promiscuous sex, but in a steady relationship it's acceptable. I'm not sure about video games and things like that. Again, I think it depends on who you ask. A lot of straight-edgers are also vegetarian or vegan but I think it just might be a correlation. Also, the topic of painkillers like aspirin is controversial. Some say that it should be acceptable because the idea is to take care of yourself, but others say that medication should only be used when absolutely necessary.

[Sasha]

it differs, from very sympathetic teetotalers who just took it a bit further to sanctiomonus "my body is an temple" dickwats and fascist i'm goint to press my puritanism on everybody hardline idiots (hardline is the extreme straightedge wich is also extremly anti-abortion, against sex for fun, often racist and homopobic and often christian right)
i have quite some friends who are straighedge and for most its just an lifestyle choice, often with an history of adiction in the family

[Fawkes]

Because merely being vegan doesnt nearly give them enough moral highground (in their own eyes).

I wanna drink your avatar

[Pirate Utopian]

Me too.

LQcwXFJv9y0

[Os Cangaceiros]

I don't have anything against people who choose not to drink/smoke/fornicate or otherwise abstain from "hedonism". That's their choice, and I don't judge. It's just unfortunate that a high percentage of "edgers" seem to be annoying d-bags.

[9]

Because merely being vegan doesnt nearly give them enough moral highground (in their own eyes).
this

[F9]

do you have an issue with me NoXion?:(

[bricolage]

In all fairness the original straight edge stuff was a reaction against what MacKaye etc thought was ruining punk/hardcore shows and wanted it to be more 'about the music'. Personally I'd have probably been with the ones getting wasted but in comparison to the straight edge scene today it was a much more noble reason, and to be honest they did make some pretty sweet music... although I did see a Joe Lally solo show once and he was chatting about being baked all the time so I guess they weren't all in on it.

[Fawkes]

although I did see a Joe Lally solo show once and he was chatting about being baked all the time so I guess they weren't all in on it.

Nah, that was the cool thing about the early edge scene, it wasn't dogmatic or anything and there were no separatist intentions behind it. That changed fast though, much to the originators' chagrin.

[FreeFocus]

I'm straight edge. I'm not particularly into punk anymore (I used to be a little bit) and I'm not a vegan. I don't subscribe to hedonism; it isn't the way that I live my life. People are of course free to do so, but I don't have to be forced to deal with them directly, and I'm not bound to respect their lifestyles.

My reasons for being straight edge are social and personal. I don't like the effects that drugs and alcoholism have had in my, and others', community. Drug addiction and alcoholism take people's productivity away, some of the prime years of their life. They break families, lead to unintended consequences, people go to jail, etc. Moreover, I see the media promoting the idea of these things as "cool," which a lot of kids and teens buy into. Those are the social reasons. The personal reasons are that I never want to be, if I can help it, in a situation where I am not in control of my actions or able to defend myself against others. I do not want to hinder my ability to focus (long-term, I'm not talking about in-the-moment necessarily) or improve my physical performance. I would like to keep myself as healthy as possible because I've seen a lot of bad health caused not only by smoking, drinking, etc, but also the environmental effects that capitalism cause.

Other sXers have different opinions on things like promiscuous sex, or even caffeine. I don't drink coffee because you do develop a dependence on it (plus it's just a waste of money. I like sweet coffee but I'm not willing to spend money everyday for it). I view promiscuous sex as irresponsible, but people are free to do what they want. I don't tend to talk about sex openly, it's a person's private matter, it doesn't particularly interest me to hear about people's escapades.

I don't play video games anymore. I used to be a really big gamer but a) it's expensive and my money is better spent elsewhere, and b) I rather spend my time reading, exercising, or sleeping. I still play once in a blue moon, it's fun, and I have good memories playing Halo and shit. I don't really care what types of food people like, I try to eat a disciplined and healthy diet but I have cheat meals a few times a week. I don't like it when people put shit into their bodies (fast food, greasy stuff, fattening foods, etc) when they can help it (a lot of poor people can't really, but that's why I'd like to see more urban gardening and stuff). I used to spend ridiculous amounts of money at fast food places, but I felt that my health was suffering, so I stopped.

On a side note, psycho, I'm not a right-wing Christian (I'm a left-wing atheist :lol:), but I might agree about the "body as a temple" idea, if all it refers to is respecting yourself and your body. I don't think we have anything else if we don't have, well, ourselves. Mind and body health are important, at least to me.

[Fawkes]

Your body is an amusement park.

Really though, I largely agree with what you're saying FF, and while I'm not sXe, nor do I think I'll ever attach the label to myself, I do drink and do drugs way less than I used to just for the sake of productivity and all that fun stuff. What is off-putting to me for a lot of edge people is the judgement passing and dogmatism that many attach to it, but a lot of the ideas behind it are great. One thing that does kind of annoy me though is the need to attach a label to oneself. If I were to not drink or do any drugs for a year except for one time, am I sxe? Yeah, it's an identity thing, but I just prefer to be me and not do the whole label thing, but that's just me, do whatchyall want

[FreeFocus]

Your body is an amusement park.

Really though, I largely agree with what you're saying FF, and while I'm not sXe, nor do I think I'll ever attach the label to myself, I do drink and do drugs way less than I used to just for the sake of productivity and all that fun stuff. What is off-putting to me for a lot of edge people is the judgement passing and dogmatism that many attach to it, but a lot of the ideas behind it are great. One thing that does kind of annoy me though is the need to attach a label to oneself. If I were to not drink or do any drugs for a year except for one time, am I sxe? Yeah, it's an identity thing, but I just prefer to be me and not do the whole label thing, but that's just me, do whatchyall want

My understanding/definition of sXe is that it's a lifelong commitment, either from the beginning when you can make informed decisions as a young teen, or later in life, say your mid-20s, even if you have drank/done drugs before. Some sXers will say the latter aren't truly adhering to it, but people can self-define to some extent, and I would never try to diminish someone for trying to turn their life around and make positive changes (saying that they're not "really" sXe could alienate them).

Taking a year off from drugs/alcohol would just be, well, a break, being sober for a year :lol:. People don't have to have labels, it's like people on here whose politics might line up with a particular current of thought, but who identify as "non-doctrinaire" or as "broad socialists."

Edit: I also just looked up "body as a temple" quickly, and apparently it relates back to a Biblical verse. The language they used was, "Your body, his temple," which I obviously disagree with because I don't believe in religion and that type of authority, but I think people being motivated to stay drug-free that was is preferable to someone being strung out on drugs (it'd be even better if they lost the religion though. Religion is a drug too). Nonetheless, my motto would be, "My body, my temple."

[Quail]

Other sXers have different opinions on things like promiscuous sex, or even caffeine. I don't drink coffee because you do develop a dependence on it (plus it's just a waste of money. I like sweet coffee but I'm not willing to spend money everyday for it). I view promiscuous sex as irresponsible, but people are free to do what they want. I don't tend to talk about sex openly, it's a person's private matter, it doesn't particularly interest me to hear about people's escapades.

Judgemental much? Whether people choose to have sex with few or many people doesn't matter, provided that they take appropriate precautions and it's consensual. I don't see how having safe sex that you don't regret with many partners could possibly be irresponsible.

[FreeFocus]

Judgemental much? Whether people choose to have sex with few or many people doesn't matter, provided that they take appropriate precautions and it's consensual. I don't see how having safe sex that you don't regret with many partners could possibly be irresponsible.

I also said people can do what they want, that it's a private matter, and I'm not interested in their personal escapades. This is not a topic that comes up between people I know and myself because it's their business and I'm not interested in it. If it's consensual, people do what they want, make choices, and live with the good and bad outcomes (if any) of those decisions. It's not what I would look for in a partner, but that's me.

[NoOneIsIllegal]

THIS SONG MADE STRAIGHT-EDGE LEGIT AND THOSE ASSOCIATED WITH IT NO LONGER A JOKE
...EVEN IF THEY DID BREAK EDGE
jfdV6nYI-Rg

"i know a thing or two about you. your bullshit attitude. you're fucking weak
and lemme tell you it shows right through. you don't know shit about me or my
friends. what they are what i am. so cut the shit and try not to pretend. you're
scared of who and what we are and so you question yourself. but your pride won't
let you show your fear to anyone else. you don't know me. so don't judge me. you
don't know you. you're too scared to. you think you know. why i'm here after all
these years. you wanna know? well i'll tell you fucking why. go. for myself. for
my friends. for my family. forever. i'll take this to the bitter end. you don't
know a single thing about me. just what my enemies say. well fuck them and fuck
you. that shit won't cut it today. be a fucking man and stand up to find the truth
in yourself. for yourself. by yourself and not from anyone else. you think you
know. why i'm here after all these years. you wanna know? well, i'll tell you
fucking why, go. so now where are you? i'm still here, i'm still proud and i
still know what it takes to be true. for myself. for my friends. for my family.
straight fucking edge. forever."

Serious Note: I was edge for eight years. I kind of miss it, but I don't mind having a drink like... once a month? :lol: I should go back to it considering due to my medical condition I shouldn't drink at all, but I mean... c'mon. I think it was easier being edge when all my friends were shoving shit up their noses and I was insanely into shows and hardcore, rather than what I'm surrounded by now (casual drinkers, not going to shows often, being "grown up" lulz, etc.)

[Quail]

I also said people can do what they want, that it's a private matter, and I'm not interested in their personal escapades. This is not a topic that comes up between people I know and myself because it's their business and I'm not interested in it. If it's consensual, people do what they want, make choices, and live with the good and bad outcomes (if any) of those decisions. It's not what I would look for in a partner, but that's me.
Yeah sure, you said that they can do what they want, but at the same time you're judging them as irresponsible, which I don't think is fair.

[gorillafuck]

Because merely being vegan doesnt nearly give them enough moral highground (in their own eyes).
straightedge people aren't usually vegan.

[John "Eh" MacDonald]

I find that people who aren't straight edge are just as judgmental as those who are.

[gorillafuck]

I find that people who aren't straight edge are just as judgmental as those who are.
Oh definitely. I'm not straightedge but the way that irritating drug users always go on about how stupid straight edge people are is basically the same as the way that some straightedge people act. Those people need to shut the hell up.

[Quail]

Who goes on about how stupid straight edge people are? It doesn't bother me if people choose not to take drugs, as long as they don't moralise and look down on me for taking them.

[John "Eh" MacDonald]

Oh definitely. I'm not straightedge but the way that irritating drug users always go on about how stupid straight edge people are is basically the same as the way that some straightedge people act. Those people need to shut the hell up.

We must all have moments where we become those people:sleep:

c'mon?

[gorillafuck]

Who goes on about how stupid straight edge people are? It doesn't bother me if people choose not to take drugs, as long as they don't moralise and look down on me for taking them.
I didn't say that you specifically do, I said some people do. I've met people who do, I'm not talking about this site.


We must all have moments where we become those people:sleep:

c'mon?
I am so proud to say I don't do that:laugh:

[John "Eh" MacDonald]

Who goes on about how stupid straight edge people are? It doesn't bother me if people choose not to take drugs, as long as they don't moralise and look down on me for taking them.

Its more along the lines of... "fuck I hate those straight edge nerds, they think there all that just because they don't use drugs..fuck 'em"

[FreeFocus]

Yeah sure, you said that they can do what they want, but at the same time you're judging them as irresponsible, which I don't think is fair.

Unless you value my opinion that much (which I doubt), then it won't sway your actions anyway, so do you give two shits if I think you're irresponsible? Probably not, and if you do value my opinion that much, maybe you should re-examine your actions in the context of your life and come to a conclusion for yourself (and then if you decide you disagree, you can go on not caring about my "judgment"). Just like I don't really care about your bedroom escapades, as it has no bearing on my life.

I'm not the state :lol:. I can judge people's actions for myself and yet not effect any change in behavior merely by holding an opinion. As I said, this doesn't even come up between people I know and myself, because how they live their life in that personal way has nothing to do with me. I'm not going to accost them for having multiple partners. I don't bring this stuff up, and people don't bring it up with me.

[NoOneIsIllegal]

Who goes on about how stupid straight edge people are?
A lot of people.

[REVLEFT'S BIEGGST MATSER TROL]

You know previously I would of thought that straight edged people were nutters? I mean, why does it matter how exactly your "Pleasure centres" are stimulated as long as they are and you don't hurt anyone?

But idk, I find myself more attracted to a more ascetic lifestyle now? I mean, it seems to me like life is about more than stimulating pleasure centres, and there seems to be some worth in things being "real." Consider giving people the option of living their life as some kind virtual reality where they are unaware it isn't real, or something like that. I think most people find something to reject about that, for whatever reason, and I don't think it is due to to backwards puritanism or ignorance.

[Magón]

Who goes on about how stupid straight edge people are? It doesn't bother me if people choose not to take drugs, as long as they don't moralise and look down on me for taking them.

Then you don't want to speak with what's called a Militant Straightedge person. I've met a couple of them in the past, and it hasn't ended well.

[Sasha]

My understanding/definition of sXe is that it's a lifelong commitment, either from the beginning when you can make informed decisions as a young teen, or later in life, say your mid-20s, even if you have drank/done drugs before. Some sXers will say the latter aren't truly adhering to it, but people can self-define to some extent, and I would never try to diminish someone for trying to turn their life around and make positive changes (saying that they're not "really" sXe could alienate them).

Taking a year off from drugs/alcohol would just be, well, a break, being sober for a year :lol:. People don't have to have labels, it's like people on here whose politics might line up with a particular current of thought, but who identify as "non-doctrinaire" or as "broad socialists."

Edit: I also just looked up "body as a temple" quickly, and apparently it relates back to a Biblical verse. The language they used was, "Your body, his temple," which I obviously disagree with because I don't believe in religion and that type of authority, but I think people being motivated to stay drug-free that was is preferable to someone being strung out on drugs (it'd be even better if they lost the religion though. Religion is a drug too). Nonetheless, my motto would be, "My body, my temple."

Funny thing, a while back an dude I know had for an laugh his 15 years straight edge party. He is an swell dude that would never be judgmental on others. At the party he had some famous (ex-)edge bands so lots of oldschool guys I used to know showed up. You know what? Exactly all the judgmental preachy fucks that would always be in your face about "sXe for live" and that got big sXe tattoos? All now drinking more booze and snorting cocaine in one weekend than I do in half a year.

[Pirate Utopian]

Party, party, party. Let's all get wasted.

gzd2qt_aOr0

[Admiral Swagmeister G-Funk]

I don't have anything against people who choose not to drink/smoke/fornicate or otherwise abstain from "hedonism". That's their choice, and I don't judge. It's just unfortunate that a high percentage of "edgers" seem to be annoying d-bags.
To be honest, the "edgers" who go around calling themselves that are douches, but there are a lot more out there who just choose to live that way, for personal reasons, and don't impose their choices onto other people.

My brother is 'straight edge', as in he doesn't use drugs or alcohol, as he sees them as destructive (probably as a result of observing my mistakes). He's cool about it though, and at times I feel as if I should take a leaf out of his book as he has a better head on his shoulders than I do. The problem I have comes from my love of alcohol and nicotine.

So yeah, to the point, not all straight edge people are douches, just the ones who assume a moral highground as a result of it. That's the same with anything though. Anybody I know does it for themselves and generally don't give a fuck about what others put into their bodies.

[Jazzratt]

Who goes on about how stupid straight edge people are? I do. Especially the ones in crimethinc that wrote that hilarious thing about how drinking is anti-anarchist or whatever.

[Stand Your Ground]

Straightedge is just a choice about how you wanna live your life. Some people choose to do drugs & alcohol, some don't. I don't see why people make a big deal out of it either way. I'm edge and my girl drinks occassionally, I don't care, it's her choice, not mine.

It's not about morals, and definitely not religion, just do whatever you feel is right for you. Stop complaining about what other people do, just do you.

[Sasha]

I do. Especially the ones in crimethinc that wrote that hilarious thing about how drinking is anti-anarchist or whatever.

the traditional dutch anarchist/socialist movement always has been strongly entwined with the teetotaler movement. The best known anarchist slogan in dutch is "drinkende arbeiders denken niet, denkende arbeiders drinken niet" (drinking workers don't think, thinking workers dont drink) and its still so that on the yearly anarchist camp no booze and drugs are allowed on the premises.

[Quail]

I do. Especially the ones in crimethinc that wrote that hilarious thing about how drinking is anti-anarchist or whatever.
Yeah, but whoever wrote that stupid pamphlet was a moralising dick, so you're pretty justified in criticising them.

[ed miliband]

the traditional dutch anarchist/socialist movement always has been strongly entwined with the teetotaler movement. The best known anarchist slogan in dutch is "drinkende arbeiders denken niet, denkende arbeiders drinken niet" (drinking workers don't think, thinking workers dont drink) and its still so that on the yearly anarchist camp no booze and drugs are allowed on the premises.


Yeah, I think there was a similar tradition in Britain in the earlier part of the 20th century.

[Blackscare]

Yeah sure, you said that they can do what they want, but at the same time you're judging them as irresponsible, which I don't think is fair.

[Edit] I just realized that this reads a bit like I'm making implications about Kayl's sexual practices, but I didn't mean to. I mean, I kind of can guess where she's coming from based on her arguments, but I wouldn't try to insinuate anything I don't specifically know, as of course she could just be angry on general principle, not being personally offended.

Kayl, this reminds me of a general problem I have with people today, so don't think to following rant is (entirely) about you here.



I think, amongst a lot of people, the (certainly just) impulse to value and encourage social freedoms and the like, translate into an attitude that it's not enough to simply leave people the fuck alone and mind your business (which is what I think people need to really focus on), but that you have to approve of everything that you tolerate (which I think is a bullshit idea).

Basically, you're wanting everyone around you or whatever (in your specific case, it's freefocus) to not only allow you to live your life but also emotionally validate your actions and sympathize. I think this is almost as big a violation of someone's rights as it is to force certain behaviors on people, because you're basically saying that the person isn't even entitled to their own private opinion.


You need to get over yourself, everyone has private thoughts and proclivities, and no amount of complaining about this fact is going to change that. Honestly, he may not personally gel with what you do, but that doesn't mean he cares, gives it a second thought, or wants to tell you/be asked his opinion. So perhaps you should just not get in his face demanding that he think and feel a certain way that he just doesn't. All you can ask for in people (and reasonably hope for) is for them to avoid certain behavior that is inconsiderate/obnoxious, there's just no point in attacking/resenting someone based on a personal feeling regarding a subject.



Fuck, I'm a promiscuous homo drug user (well, monogamous now, but I was in the past) and I'm not the least bit concerned or even offended at what FF's opinion of me may be, because he's not shoving his beliefs down my throat regarding what and how many things I shove down my throat (lol seewhatididthar). Not that I'm implying that FF has a problem with the GLBT crowd, btw.


I mean, don't even pretend for a second that in your most private (and if anything in the world is sacred, I would say that was sacred) inner monologue, you don't pass judgments minor and major on a daily basis. I know I do at work, I fucking hate customers and instantly decide if they're worthy of life or not within a few seconds based on whether or not they can order properly, breath with their mouth open, or have some bizarre specific request that I either consider a pain in the ass or am bothered by (I'm neurotic, in the best way). Obviously I don't know these people at all, nor do I really care (obviously the "worthy of life" part was hyperbole), but I still form opinions based on my own personal worldview that they would certainly deem 'unfair' etc, etc, but what do you want? Should I go to a confessional booth and absolve myself of my unfair snap judgments? No, I just don't act like a dick based on every whim I have.

On a more serious note, I'm sure you also see people who are doing things with their lives/etc that you disagree with (again, privately) for whatever reason, that are more significant than "jesus christ I can't stand people who order 'decaffeinated coffee' instead of just saying decaf", are you a terrible judgmental person? NO, you're a person. People do that.


I'm sorry, but it's extremely narcissistic to think that you can or should foist personal opinions on people, or demand that they approve of you/your lifestyle, when they're not even going out of their way to voice their opinions to you.



tl;dr

I'm a person, you're a person, FF is a person and we all deserve to be treated like persons (who have private thoughts, and not begrudge each other those thoughts when we feel threatened by them personally).

[Quail]

I think, amongst a lot of people, the (certainly just) impulse to value and encourage social freedoms and the like, translate into an attitude that it's not enough to simply leave people the fuck alone and mind your business (which is what I think people need to really focus on), but that you have to approve of everything that you tolerate (which I think is a bullshit idea).

Basically, you're wanting everyone around you or whatever (in your specific case, it's freefocus) to not only allow you to live your life but also emotionally validate your actions and sympathize. I think this is almost as big a violation of someone's rights as it is to force certain behaviors on people, because you're basically saying that the person isn't even entitled to their own private opinion.

That isn't true at all. You don't have to approve of something to tolerate it. For example, I tolerate people holding religious beliefs despite not approving of them, but I also acknowledge that they may have many reasons for holding those views and it's not just because they're idiots who reject science and reason.

To call everyone who engages in a certain practice irresponsible is to not really think about why they do it, how they're doing it and how it actually affects them. It's tarring everyone with the same brush; there probably are people who are promiscuous in an irresponsible way, but there are plenty of people who aren't, so to me it seems ignorant and rude to dismiss everyone who's had promiscuous sex as irresponsible. That's my problem, not the fact that he disapproves of the behaviour.

There are things I disapprove of, as I said earlier, but I don't instantly dismiss everyone who does those things as stupid/irresponsible/etc.

[Blackscare]

To call everyone who engages in a certain practice irresponsible is to not really think about why they do it, how they're doing it and how it actually affects them. It's tarring everyone with the same brush; there probably are people who are promiscuous in an irresponsible way, but there are plenty of people who aren't, so to me it seems ignorant and rude to dismiss everyone who's had promiscuous sex as irresponsible. That's my problem, not the fact that he disapproves of the behaviour.
So, you take issue with the fact that he holds an opinion that paints people with too broad a brush (to be fair, he WAS by necessity talking in vague, broad terms). It's still a private opinion (that he happened to share because there was a very specific thread in which sXe peeps were asked to explain themselves).

Essentially, the problem is the same. I don't see how what I said was "not true at all". I understand why you take issue with what he thinks, and I tend to agree with you on that, but I personally don't give a fuck what his opinion is and don't feel the need to get confrontational about it.


As for "instantly dismiss people"/whatever, please explain what this means in concrete terms, because aside from this one time ever I've never seen FF express this attitude anywhere else, and from what he says he doesn't go around annoying people about it IRL. So I don't see how in any way what he thinks effects you or warrants such a hostile/defensive response as the one you gave him.

[Blackscare]

Also, he said
I view promiscuous sex as irresponsible not, "if you have promiscous sex, you are an irresponsible person", and there's a subtle difference. Just because a person engages in a single behavior you disagree with does not mean that you dismiss them entirely as bad/etc people. It also doesn't mean that under no circumstances can freefocus adapt his broad opinion on the subject to a specific individual who may or may not be responsible.

[Quail]

So, you take issue with the fact that he holds an opinion that paints people with too broad a brush (to be fair, he WAS by necessity talking in vague, broad terms). It's still a private opinion (that he happened to share because there was a very specific thread in which sXe peeps were asked to explain themselves).

It's a private opinion, but then if someone held the opinion that all women were inferior, that would also be a private opinion. Would you be okay with that? I don't see how you can judge an entire group of people for their actions without seeing them as individuals. It's unfounded prejudice, which I do feel the need to challenge.


As for "instantly dismiss people"/whatever, please explain what this means in concrete terms, because aside from this one time ever I've never seen FF express this attitude anywhere else, and from what he says he doesn't go around annoying people about it IRL. So I don't see how in any way what he thinks effects you or warrants such a hostile/defensive response as the one you gave him.
It wasn't a hostile response, but as I said, I don't think it's fair to call everyone who engages in promiscuous sex as irresponsible, because that just isn't true. If I made comments like "everyone who takes drugs must have mental health issues" or "everyone who is unemployed is a lazy slob" people would call me out on them, so I don't see how this is any different. If he truly believes that everyone who has had promiscuous sex is irresponsible, then as soon as he finds out that they've had sex with a stranger, he will mentally label them as irresponsible, which is a tad unfair to someone that he knows nothing about.

[Quail]

Also, he said not, "if you have promiscous sex, you are an irresponsible person", and there's a subtle difference. Just because a person engages in a single behavior you disagree with does not mean that you dismiss them entirely as bad/etc people. It also doesn't mean that under no circumstances can freefocus adapt his broad opinion on the subject to a specific individual who may or may not be responsible.
Perhaps I misread it a little.
However, generalising casual sex as always being irresponsible is a closed-minded position to take. It all depends on the circumstances and the person. I was also not in the best mood when I made those posts, and being judged for being promiscuous is one of those things that hits a raw nerve because of my life experiences.

[black magick hustla]

ff man you are hella boring. you sound like a middle aged dad

[Spawn of Stalin]

I was straight edge to the core from ages 17 to 21, though I didn't ever refer to myself as straight edge because I didn't want to attach a label to myself, I was a guy who didn't drink, do drugs, or smoke. I was also a vegan, and most people here know my views on casual sex. Only reason I'm not straight edge now is because I remembered how much I missed cigarettes, I'm still completely against using things which significantly alter your state of mind. Straight edge is a really good lifestyle, and it's more fun than it seems, I encourage everyone to try it.

[Stand Your Ground]

I was straight edge to the core from ages 17 to 21, though I didn't ever refer to myself as straight edge because I didn't want to attach a label to myself, I was a guy who didn't drink, do drugs, or smoke. I was also a vegan, and most people here know my views on casual sex. Only reason I'm not straight edge now is because I remembered how much I missed cigarettes, I'm still completely against using things which significantly alter your state of mind. Straight edge is a really good lifestyle, and it's more fun than it seems, I encourage everyone to try it.
Because I can't thank this, you just get this: :thumbup1: lol

[Tablo]

How do you know straightedge is fun if you are incapable of comparing it to the non-straightedge lifestyle you never experienced?

[black magick hustla]

straightedge is some boring shit done by boring people who cannot just say @i dont [email protected]

[Raúl Duke]

straight-edge is a lame concept to me

moderation, etc is key

[ed miliband]

Moderation is important in moderation.

[ÑóẊîöʼn]

To be honest I've never met anyone who's militantly straight-edge. If I did, I probably wouldn't be to stop myself laughing. What possible reason could they have for making my neurochemical habits their business?

[Stand Your Ground]

How do you know straightedge is fun if you are incapable of comparing it to the non-straightedge lifestyle you never experienced?
Well no I haven't experienced it myself, but I see what my friends & family go through with drugs & alcohol. I just know it's something I don't want to deal with. I can explain further if you wish.

[Stand Your Ground]

straightedge is some boring shit done by boring people who cannot just say @i dont [email protected]
We could say the same about non-straightedgers. Why do you care what other people do? If you wanna drink, go ahead, but because some other people don't doesn't mean you have to attack them.


To be honest I've never met anyone who's militantly straight-edge. If I did, I probably wouldn't be to stop myself laughing. What possible reason could they have for making my neurochemical habits their business?
I haven't either. It isn't their business, some people are just too caught up with what other people do instead of just doing themselves.

[black magick hustla]

We could say the same about non-straightedgers. Why do you care what other people do? If you wanna drink, go ahead, but because some other people don't doesn't mean you have to attack them.



nobody attacks people that don't drink. i am attacking the necessity of creating a whole identity about a very mundane thing. i am gonna start a lifestyle called curly hairdos for people with curly hair

[Fawkes]

i am gonna start a lifestyle called curly hairdos for people with curly hair

People with curly hair suck though.


The reason why a label was originally placed upon people that abstained from drinking/drugs/sex as conquest behavior (placed by themselves, which is important) is because there was a desire to pose a visible alternative to the sex, drugs, and rock and roll lifestyle that had become so entrenched in the punk scene and the nascent hardcore scene. The merits of that decision are up for debate obviously, but that's the original reasoning behind the distinguished identification of straight edge.


I'm not edge by the way.

[ed miliband]

Used to have curly hair and I'm glad those days are behind me (via having short hair now).

[Stand Your Ground]

nobody attacks people that don't drink. i am attacking the necessity of creating a whole identity about a very mundane thing. i am gonna start a lifestyle called curly hairdos for people with curly hair
Calling straightedge people boring is attacking (verbally) at least to me. I have a great life, without drugs & alcohol. So we like to identify ourselves with SXE, you like to identify yourself with non-SXE, so what, don't complain about other people, pay attention to yourself.

[Quail]

Used to have curly hair and I'm glad those days are behind me (via having short hair now).
The shaved bits of my hair don't curl, but unless I straighten my fringe it looks ridiculous :(

[Aeval]

I think people only tend to remember the gobshite straightedgers they've met who start hassling you and go on and on about the fact that they don't drink and take drugs, and people who do are messed up and will never be of use to anyone and blah blah blah - and then you just think "my god this is an annoying fuckwit, what did he say he was again? a straightedger? quick, someone pass me some chemicals so I can get away from this knobhead..." But in reality most of them are nice as pie (though I must say it annoys me a tad when they say you can't be a useful part of a revolutionary group if you have a fondness for getting messed up...) and it must be annoying for them getting hassle off of wreckhead (which I have seen, and probably joined in with, a fair bit...)

But really it's cool, we all get our kicks from different things - all the straightedgers I've know have been into some form of extreme sport so I guess their buzz is adrenaline, I don't see much difference between them getting adrenaline off of canoeing or martial arts (or kicking the shit out of nazis) and me getting serotonin and dopamine off of chocolate cake, pilates and MDMA :lol:

[Magón]

Moderation is important in moderation.

Is this going to become one of those Internet Meme's? :p

[Spawn of Stalin]

There are two types of people who argue against straight edge, the first is the person who is deeply offended, believes that you think they are a bad person, etc. The second is the person who sees your way of live as a threat to theirs, sometimes they are scared that your way of doing things might be superior to theirs so they immediately go on the offensive and talk shit on straight edge, sometimes they are just morons who like to hate on something. This second type is always a macho prick though, I've taken a lot of shit for my choices, and I can count the number of times it's been from a girl on one hand, the haters are almost always dudes, makes sense since they are far more prone to close-mindedness, and think that by verbally attacking the guy who doesn't drink they might impress someone.

I get asked why I don't drink A LOT, sometimes it's sincere, sometimes it isn't, after being asked the same question several times a week for six or seven years you learn to pick up on things like facial expressions, you have to know what angle they're taking with the question, is it a "[so, I was wondering,] why don't you drink?" or is it "why [THE FUCK] don't you drink? Because I don't want to be rude Usually I just make them see how petty and pointless of a question it really is, "why don't you like baseball?", "why don't you read comics?", I ask, after all, you choose to drink, you choose to go out and spend your money on that, I'm just standing here being a human being, you know? I'm not doing anything out of the ordinary, actually if anyone is I'd be inclined to say it was you, alcohol isn't in our genetic makeup.

How do you know straightedge is fun if you are incapable of comparing it to the non-straightedge lifestyle you never experienced?
Straight edge is fun, at least it was to me, along with like 99% of other people who are straight edge. People aren't born straight edge you know, most people choose to go straightedge, and often it is a result of the lifestyle they were previously living. I spent two or three years being a typical teenager, drinking as much as I possibly could, taking nasty drugs all the way through my GCSEs, spending my lunch money on cigarettes, then I stopped all that. At first I felt a bit out of place at parties and stuff but after a while I started seeing that I actually do have a lot more fun when my brain is functioning at 100%. These days I don't think I could enjoy drinking or doing drugs even if I wanted to, whenever I go out and I'm around people who are drinking heavily I look at their eyes and imagine how they must be feeling and I feel physically sick, no exaggeration, like I could seriously throw up. On a strictly personal level I find it reprehensible.

To be honest I've never met anyone who's militantly straight-edge. If I did, I probably wouldn't be to stop myself laughing. What possible reason could they have for making my neurochemical habits their business?
Well as far as your habits go, and other peoples' habits, I frown upon them, and so do probably the majority of people who are straight edge, but it's really none of our business as individuals what you can and can't do. But hey, what possibly reason do you have for making my lack of neurochemical habits your business?

[Quail]

the haters are almost always dudes, makes sense since they are far more prone to close-mindedness
Why are men more prone to closed-mindedness? Do you mean just due to "macho" culture?

I can understand to an extent the shit you get for not drinking because when I go out I often drive because it's cheaper than a taxi and there isn't a bus, and nearly everyone I meet in the club will ask why I'm not drinking, and when I tell them I'm driving they ask why I don't just get a taxi.

[ÑóẊîöʼn]

Well as far as your habits go, and other peoples' habits, I frown upon them, and so do probably the majority of people who are straight edge, but it's really none of our business as individuals what you can and can't do. But hey, what possibly reason do you have for making my lack of neurochemical habits your business?

Wow, you're touchy. In this thread I merely asked a question and later stated an opinion - hardly making anything my business. If your reaction to mere curiosity and opinion is to respond with sarcastic mockery, I can only imagine how you would react to serious criticism.

[black magick hustla]

People with curly hair suck though.


The reason why a label was originally placed upon people that abstained from drinking/drugs/sex as conquest behavior (placed by themselves, which is important) is because there was a desire to pose a visible alternative to the sex, drugs, and rock and roll lifestyle that had become so entrenched in the punk scene and the nascent hardcore scene. The merits of that decision are up for debate obviously, but that's the original reasoning behind the distinguished identification of straight edge.


I'm not edge by the way.

punk was all about self destruction, political punks and sxe kids are weiners and posers

[Stand Your Ground]

punk was all about self destruction, political punks and sxe kids are weiners and posers
Some could argue that you are self destructive with your drug and/or alcohol use.

Don't like the style, don't do it, but leave those alone who do.

[Pirate Utopian]

I think unless you snort coke through your eyes you're a punkass.

Also if you're vegan. Vegans aren't real humans.

[gorillafuck]

punk was all about self destruction, political punks and sxe kids are weiners and posers
Punk wasn't about self destruction (and when it was it often wasn't advocating it, like Black Flag sang about it but they also sang about trying to overcome it, MDC also sang about life sucking and being a fuckup but also wanting it to be better).

Like seriously, what the hell are you talking about?:confused: You must be confusing all punk with GG Allin or The Germs or something.

[Fawkes]

punk was all about self destruction, political punks and sxe kids are weiners and posers

Yeah, okay buddy. Punk is doing whatever the hell you want regardless of what others may think/say about you. Ian MacKaye and the sxe Dischord crew were punk as fuck.

[Spawn of Stalin]

Why are men more prone to closed-mindedness? Do you mean just due to "macho" culture?
Oh it's definitely a macho thing. Don't get me wrong, men and women can be equally closed or open-minded about various different things, but when it comes to choosing not to drink just because you're not into it or whatever, women have always been 100% more understanding than men have. This is of course just from my experience.

Wow, you're touchy. In this thread I merely asked a question and later stated an opinion - hardly making anything my business. If your reaction to mere curiosity and opinion is to respond with sarcastic mockery, I can only imagine how you would react to serious criticism.
Sorry bro...:o

[black magick hustla]

Some could argue that you are self destructive with your drug and/or alcohol use.

Don't like the style, don't do it, but leave those alone who do.

why do you want to reform a thing into your vision when it was exactly the opposite. i am not punk but it always struck me as weird the minority of anarcho punks and sxe kids that tried to turn it into something completely positive

[gorillafuck]

why do you want to reform a thing into your vision when it was exactly the opposite. i am not punk but it always struck me as weird the minority of anarcho punks and sxe kids that tried to turn it into something completely positive
Punk wasn't all just about self destruction though, even before those people.

[Stand Your Ground]

why do you want to reform a thing into your vision when it was exactly the opposite. i am not punk but it always struck me as weird the minority of anarcho punks and sxe kids that tried to turn it into something completely positive


Punk wasn't all just about self destruction though, even before those people.
This. ^

Besides, music evolves over time, it changes according to the conditions it's used in. You don't like the anarcho/sxe stuff, don't listen to it. Unless it's causing you some severe pain in your life, I don't understand people's complaining about something they can easily avoid. And music should be positive IMO.

[NoOneIsIllegal]

This thread is still around? :rolleyes:

[Widerstand]

Punk wasn't all just about self destruction though, even before those people.

But wasn't 80's hardcore primarily a reaction to the apolitical, borderline nihilist and deeply self-destructive attitude of many of the original 70's punk bands?

[gorillafuck]

But wasn't 80's hardcore primarily a reaction to the apolitical, borderline nihilist and deeply self-destructive attitude of many of the original 70's punk bands?
A lot of 80's hardcore stuff had a reaction to the drug usage and self destruction associated with punk, yeah (but is 80's hardcore less valid punk than 70's?). And there was a lot of that, but definitely not all of it. Also, psychedelic rock, prog rock, and classic rock scenes at the time were probably much worse.

[John "Eh" MacDonald]

But wasn't 80's hardcore primarily a reaction to the apolitical, borderline nihilist and deeply self-destructive attitude of many of the original 70's punk bands?

To drunk and tired to explain/ say anything about Regan so watch American Hardcore. You can find it on youtube.

[Widerstand]

(but is 80's hardcore less valid punk than 70's?).

From personal experience it's not what people usually associate with the word punk.


To drunk and tired to explain/ say anything about Regan so watch American Hardcore. You can find it on youtube.

American Hardcore is precisely where I pulled that info from. :confused:

[La Comédie Noire]

I like straight edge people, they make the best designated drivers. :)

[Quail]

I like straight edge people, they make the best designated drivers. :)
That's probably true. Sometimes when I drive I over-do the energy drinks and I'm sure it can't be that safe to drive when you're totally wired from the caffeine.