Witches threaten Romanian taxman after new labour law

[hatzel]

http://news.bbcimg.co.uk/media/images/50684000/jpg/_50684870_010948113-1.jpg


Self-declared witches in Romania are preparing to curse the country's rulers publicly for taxing their profession under an amended labour law.

Poisonous mandrake plants are due to be hurled into the River Danube and queen witch Bratara Buzea has devised a spell involving cat dung and a dead dog.

Income tax of 16% and health and pension payments have been imposed.

It was not immediately clear how car valets and driving instructors, also taxed for the first time, would react.

Their professions, along with those of witch, astrologer, fortune teller and embalmer, were not listed in the previous labour code, and therefore not subject to tax.

But now they have been classified as self-employed, as part of the cash-strapped government's push to collect more revenue and crack down on tax evasion.

Witchcraft, widely regarded in Europe as superstition, continues to fascinate some Romanians.

Accusations of sorcery have arisen in politics, the legal system and other areas of public life in recent years.



'Recognition at last'

Alisia, one of a dozen witches planning to hurl mandrake plants to bring "evil" on Romania's president and government, said her income was so small, the idea of taxing it was "foolish".

"The lawmakers don't look at themselves, at how much they make, their tricks," she told the Associated Press news agency.

"They steal and they come to us asking us to put spells on their enemies," she said.

Payments to witches and astrologers are usually made in cash and are relatively small at up to 30 lei (£6, 7 euros, $9) per consultation, AP reports.

Ms Buzea, 63, who was imprisoned in 1977 for witchcraft under the Ceausescu regime, gave a warning that her curses always worked.

"We do harm to those who harm us. They want to take the country out of this crisis using us? They should get us out of the crisis because they brought us into it."

But one witch saw a silver lining to the new law.

"It means that our magic gifts are recognised and I can open my own practice," Mihaela Minca said.



Source (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-12126670)

[Ele'ill]

They already did this but they were a bit rusty with the spell casting and some 2 million fish and like 3,000 birds died.

[hatzel]

Hah, same wavelength. I was very tempted to mention it on the thread about the birds, but I really didn't want to derail the very serious conversation going on over there :rolleyes:

[ComradeMan]

This article is a little condescending- witchcraft is as popular as ever in Europe- in Naples you could find a lot of this stuff too and every now and again there are court cases too. In Britain you can also find "Wiccans" and "Druids" and New Age bookshops everywhere...

[hatzel]

Perhaps...

Personally, I'm just wondering if this signals the start of a new movement, namely...anarcho-witchcraft! Pretty much, people smash the state by cursing it. It's a revolution of spells! It's only a matter of time before this particularly tendency is widespread enough to warrant restriction here on RevLeft...


Opposing ideologies
Forum for opposing ideologies and beliefs to be discussed; only forum where right-wingers, capitalists, preachers, primitivists, anarcho-witches and other restricted members can post. *No Fascists*

:rolleyes:

[Thirsty Crow]

Poisonous mandrake plants are due to be hurled into the River Danube and queen witch Bratara Buzea has devised a spell involving cat dung and a dead dog.

I think that the working class has finally found the right way to act and ensure the political hegemony of the class!
Witchists, Catdungists and Deadogists - unite!

[Honggweilo]

Perhaps...

Personally, I'm just wondering if this signals the start of a new movement, namely...anarcho-witchcraft! Pretty much, people smash the state by cursing it. It's a revolution of spells! It's only a matter of time before this particularly tendency is widespread enough to warrant restriction here on RevLeft...


:rolleyes:

wasnt anarchism originally stereotyped with witches and black cats :rolleyes:?

[hatzel]

Probably! Thus, anarcho-witchcraft is merely...orthodox anarchism...:tt1:

[ComradeMan]

Of course what the article doesn't state is that the majority of these "witches" belong to the Rom ethnic group.... they are highly respected in Romania too by many.

[Jack]

Of course what the article doesn't state is that the majority of these "witches" belong to the Rom ethnic group.... they are highly respected in Romania too by many.

....you're kidding me, right?


Oh, I see Rom, Romania, sound alike, must be the same thing.

God no. "Rom" refers to the Romani people, who are treated like shit in just about every European country, including Romania.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/music/2009/aug/28/madonna-booed-at-romania-concert

http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSL25820759

http://www.fightdiscrimination.eu/take-action/sign-in-our-web-actions/roma-families-forcibly-evicted-romania

etc. Please know what you're talking about next time.





Edit: I reread your post and you may have been being ironic, if so, excuse me for being an asshole.

[ComradeMan]

....you're kidding me, right?


Oh, I see Rom, Romania, sound alike, must be the same thing.

God no. "Rom" refers to the Romani people, who are treated like shit in just about every European country, including Romania.

Edit: I reread your post and you may have been being ironic, if so, excuse me for being an asshole.

Please know what you're talking about-

I was talking about the Rom "witches" or "wisewomen" who are highly respected in Romania even if the Rom has a whole do not have an easy time in Romania elsewhere.

Some of these Rom witches are pretty rich too.

[Black Sheep]

Anarcho-witchcraftism seems the Leninism of anarcho-primitivism. :D

[hatzel]

I was talking about the Rom "witches" or "wisewomen" who are highly respected in Romania even if the Rom has a whole do not have an easy time in Romania elsewhere.

True, and the article does hint at this:


"They [the lawmakers] steal and they come to us asking us to put spells on their enemies," she said
Clearly their sorcery is pretty well respected. It remains true that Romanians are esoteric / stupid enough to believe in all this soothsaying, and for some reason think that the Roma have a special gift for it. So sure, those who practise witchcraft or fortune-telling are widely respected in this role. Whilst they might not be on the street afterwards. Clearly ComradeMan is more clued up on the Roma people than anybody who would think that anybody else had falled into the Rom-ania trap, or who had themselves fallen into the they're all exactly the same in every way trap :rolleyes:

Anarcho-witchcraftism seems the Leninism of anarcho-primitivism. :D

Oh, just you wait until witch Stalin comes along. Or, heaven forbid...witch Mao...

Witch Pol Pot would probably be better than real Pol Pot, though. 'I shall curse all the intellectuals and kill them with my witchcraft...oh, nothing's happening...shucks...'

[ComradeMan]

I have some Romanian friends (non-Rom) who swear by some of these "witches" and have all the anecdotes and stories to tell about them. None of these Romanians is what I would call "primitive" (don't like the word) but they do have this idea of "otherness" etc that Rabbi K has mentioned. But hell, in the modern avant-garde USA Yehuda Berg has become a big name and lots of people were wearing red string bracelets from Israel-Palestine!!!

[hatzel]

Yehuda Berg

Yehuda Berg is a massive cock...

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_Al5DwZmCWfI/SqAUDfu6-uI/AAAAAAAAB5o/XlewHS3E8TA/s400/Man+and+a+big+cock.jpg

:sneaky:

[Palingenisis]

Of course what the article doesn't state is that the majority of these "witches" belong to the Rom ethnic group.... they are highly respected in Romania too by many.

Thats crap...More racism from you.

I live with a Romani woman from Romania and her son...They are Protestant Christians. As are a lot of Romani. A lot are also deeply devout Orthodox. The paganism that exists among them is kept within the tribe and not marketed.

[hatzel]

Thats crap...More racism from you.

I live with a Romani woman from Romania and her son...They are Protestant Christians. As are a lot of Romani. A lot are also deeply devout Orthodox. The paganism that exists among them is kept within the tribe and not marketed.

These people are professional soothsayers, and, as anybody who has spent any time in Romania or with Romanians will know, these soothsayers are predominantly Roma. There's even a picture of them right there. That's what the article is about. People come to them, they pay them, and then stuff is done. The state wants to tax this, so marketing of this 'resource' clearly happens.

Their religion wouldn't make the blindest bit of difference, anyway. Do Christians not indulge in soothsaying? So who's this other group in Romania, which isn't the Roma, who don't indulge in soothsaying, apparently, and aren't Christians, who also, apparently, don't indulge in soothsaying? This whole thing has nothing to do with 'paganism', whatever that's supposed to mean. 'Deeply devout Orthodox' Christians are rarely pagan anyway...

[Die Neue Zeit]

'Deeply devout Orthodox' Christians are rarely pagan anyway...

The veneration of images is historically a pagan concept.

[Palingenisis]

These people are professional soothsayers, and, as anybody who has spent any time in Romania or with Romanians will know, these soothsayers are predominantly Roma. There's even a picture of them right there. That's what the article is about. People come to them, they pay them, and then stuff is done. The state wants to tax this, so marketing of this 'resource' clearly happens.

Their religion wouldn't make the blindest bit of difference, anyway. Do Christians not indulge in soothsaying? ..

They often claim to be Roma with actually being so.

And when the Roma are religious they take it very seriously. So yes as Christians are supposed to be involved in soothsaying than Roma Christians generally arent. Its always the bad sides of their community that makes the papers, etc...How many of them died in the holocaust? Yet they continue to be burnt alive, beaten up and generally terrorized.

http://current.com/news/92511432_burned-little-3-year-old-girl-a-symbol-of-roma-hate-and-hope-czech-republic.htm

Symbol of hope though? Dont make me laugh.

It would be nice if racists such as ComradeMan didnt dance on their wounds.

[Palingenisis]

Clearly ComradeMan is more clued up on the Roma people than anybody who would think that anybody else had falled into the Rom-ania trap, or who had themselves fallen into the they're all exactly the same in every way trap :rolleyes:
.'

If thats not racism I dont know what is.

[hatzel]

...anything in that post that has any relevance to the topic? :rolleyes:

I know I sure as hell don't have to be told about the historical and continued suffering of the Roma, for various reasons, and this thread isn't actually about them. I see nothing racist in pointing out that many of the people we're talking about are Roma...fact of the matter is that many of them are. The fact that there are those who pretend to be isn't really particularly important. That alone should suggest something. If people approach them thinking they are Roma, or that people feel they have to pretend to be Roma to gain any credibility, this clearly shows that the Roma are respected in this field, even if not elsewhere. Trying to turn it round and construe it as racist, making a few vague statements about religion in the Rom community doesn't really contribute...


However, if you feel like turning it to that, sure, let's! What do you think of the rapid growth of the Pentecostal churches amongst the Roma? It's interesting that this is a largely 'self-driven' movement, I wonder what you in your infinite wisdom sees as appealing to the Roma in the Pentecostal church?


[BTW: it would also be nice if slightly silly people didn't arbitrarily use the Roma's wounds as a means of discrediting or attacking other people for claiming that a Rom might be respected by anybody for any reason. Thanks.]

[Palingenisis]

.
Edit: I reread your post and you may have been being ironic, if so, excuse me for being an asshole.

He though...He is a racist.

[Palingenisis]

[BTW: it would also be nice if slightly silly people didn't arbitrarily use the Roma's wounds as a means of discrediting or attacking other people for claiming that a Rom might be respected by anybody for any reason. Thanks.]

Wow...Just wow. Way to bend things.

Oh yeah I forget that the trouble in occupied Palestine is down to Palestinian hatred. :rolleyes:

[hatzel]

If thats not racism I dont know what is.

Claims require justification. I'm looking forward to hearing how, exactly, that could be construed as racist...

[Palingenisis]

Claims require justification. I'm looking forward to hearing how, exactly, that could be construed as racist...

He supports the existence of the state of Israel therefore he is a racist (and a pretty hardcore one at that).

Edit...Oh sorry I thought that was aimed at a ComradeMan post...Its pretty obvious why that is racist.

Roma-nia scam or whatever. Ha, ha...very funny...Not.

[hatzel]

He supports the existence of the state of Israel therefore he is a racist (and a pretty hardcore one at that).

:rolleyes:


This is why the statement 'Clearly ComradeMan is more clued up on the Roma people than anybody who would think that anybody else had falled into the Rom-ania trap, or who had themselves fallen into the they're all exactly the same in every way trap' is racist? Hmm...okay then...feel free to try again, though :)

[Palingenisis]

Its makes out that the Roma are in general scam artists...They arent.

[hatzel]

...literally no coherence in that statement...so I'm going to leave this thread until tomorrow, when hopefully somebody who makes sense at all to me will be posting on it. G'night! :)

[ComradeMan]

As usual Palingenesis (che palle!) comes in spouting absolute nonsense and if I didn't haven anything better to do I wouldn't even reply but seeing as the choice is reply or wash the dishes I thought I would reply.

1) Rom "paganism" as it's called is not an established/organised religion- it is syncretic incorporating features from many of the places where the Rom people(s) have travelled/sojourned. Most Rom are of a Christian denomination- usually the major denomination of the country they are in.

2) Roma "witches" are hereditary- it's a bloodline, and although there may well be charlatans in Romania most of the "witches" are from respected families in which the bloodline is passed down from mother to daughter usually. For a "witch" to have success and be respected some sort of tradition and reputation would be required.

3) There was no racism in any of what I wrote, on the contrary I found the article slightly condescending when in so-called "developed" modern nations the New Age movement abounds and things like Kabbalah have become trendy- thus the portrayal of backward and primitive Romania was hypocritical in my opinion. As a side note it is rather amazing that our professed socialist (national- errhum...) fails to see that this taxing and persecution of the Roma(nian) "witches" may well be construed as a veiled and subtle attempt by the state to attack a particular cultural group- already much persecuted. I doubt Palingenesis has ever heard of assimilation though.

4) Palingenesis' stereotype of the Romanian witches as scam artists is grossly ignorant and condescending towards a traditional belief/spirituality of the Roma people. If you don't believe in it, fine, but accusing people of being scam artists is what she has done- no one else.

5) Italy has a long historical intercourse with Romania, dating back to the err... Romans, hence Romania. In more recent times Romanians were free to emigrate to Italy because of a treaty when one of the Italian kings married a Romanian princess or something, with the EU of course this is no longer an issue as such. The Roma are present in large numbers in Italy along with non-Roma Romanians- of whom I know many and I am a friend too. The Romanian language is ultimately derived from Latin and similar enough to Italian to allow a little (stress little) mutual comprehension too. My comments were based on my own experience and also information derived from friendships with people from Romania.

6) Re the state of Israel- like what has that to do with this article? I don't believe Palingenesis has ever asked me or Rabbi K what our respective positions on Israel-Palestine are and to be accused of being racist by someone who frequently comes out with nationalism and/or anti-semitic racial nonsense is quite ironic to say the least.

As usual a thread is derailed and not surprisingly is it by this user.

yDU8g72_rXQ

[hatzel]

http://img704.imageshack.us/img704/1339/derailedtrainderailedth.jpg

...which is a shame, really, because there might be a serious point or two in all this. Ah well...

[Red Future]

Ms Buzea, 63, who was imprisoned in 1977 for witchcraft under the Ceausescu regime, gave a warning that her curses always worked.

What the hell ???

[hatzel]

Either it was a 'reactionary' profession, or Mr Personality Cult himself saw witchcraft as a threat to his regime, and didn't want to be cursed...remembering that the Soviet Union happily 'did away' with a load of shamans in Siberia, against the backdrop of anti-religionism, but also removing anybody who had any place in society that could mean they would be used as a 'focal point' around which people might gather to oppose the regime, I see no reason the Romanian regime would be any different. Perhaps he feared that people opposed to the system would gather around her, with the assumption that she would have been considered somewhat 'powerful'. That's not what authoritarian regimes want, alternate powers. That's a competition, and a threat to the totalitarianism of the all-powerful leader.

[ComradeMan]

Also interesting the fact that Elena Ceaușescu had her personal "witch", i.e. the lady in the video, Radica.

[Blamelessman]

witches are phucking awesome. i'm reading `the magic power of witchcraft'. a lot of witchcraft is psychosomatic stuff so it's basically about being an asshole to people till u get deep into their subconscious until they fuck themselves up.

PS where is redstar, dead?