infamous "children vacination -> autism" research was elaborate fraud

[Sasha]

the fucking bastards, this must have killed kids...


The Vaccine - Autism Connection? An Elaborate Fraud. (http://slog.thestranger.com/slog/archives/2011/01/05/the-vaccine-autism-connection-an-elaborate-fraud)

Posted by Jonathan Golob (http://www.thestranger.com/seattle/ArticleArchives?author=224756) on Wed, Jan 5, 2011 at 6:29 PM

The British Medical Journal has the first (fantastic) article (http://www.bmj.com/content/342/bmj.c5347.full) in a planned series on the now retracted Lancet journal article first drawing the (now demonstrated to be fraudulent) connection between the Measles-Mumps-and-Rubella (MMR) vaccine and autism. It's a crackling must-read (http://www.bmj.com/content/342/bmj.c5347.full).

Wakefield was working on a lawsuit,7 for which he sought a bowel-brain “syndrome” as its centrepiece. Claiming an undisclosed £150 (€180, $230) an hour through a Norfolk solicitor named Richard Barr, he had been confidentially 8 put on the payroll two years before the paper was published, eventually grossing him £435 643, plus expenses. Curiously, however, Wakefield had already identified such a syndrome before the project which would reputedly discover it. “Children with enteritis/disintegrative disorder [an expression he used for bowel inflammation and regressive autism] form part of a new syndrome,” he and Barr explained in a confidential grant application to the UK government’s Legal Aid Board before any of the children were investigated. “Nonetheless the evidence is undeniably in favour of a specific vaccine induced pathology.”
The two men also aimed to show a sudden-onset “temporal association”—strong evidence in product liability. “Dr Wakefield feels that if we can show a clear time link between the vaccination and onset of symptoms,” Barr told the legal board, “we should be able to dispose of the suggestion that it’s simply a chance encounter.”
What follows is a detailed break down of how Dr. Wakefield carefully manufactured these temporal associations, in order to bolster the bogus lawsuits he and others were planning to profit from. You must read this article. At the end is a TL;DR summary of the fraud at the center of the MMR -> Autism bullshit that continues today:

The Lancet paper was a case series of 12 child patients; it reported a proposed “new syndrome” of enterocolitis and regressive autism and associated this with MMR as an “apparent precipitating event.” But in fact: * Three of nine children reported with regressive autism did not have autism diagnosed at all. Only one child clearly had regressive autism
* Despite the paper claiming that all 12 children were “previously normal,” five had documented pre-existing developmental concerns
* Some children were reported to have experienced first behavioural symptoms within days of MMR, but the records documented these as starting some months after vaccination
* In nine cases, unremarkable colonic histopathology results—noting no or minimal fluctuations in inflammatory cell populations—were changed after a medical school “research review” to “non-specific colitis”
* The parents of eight children were reported as blaming MMR, but 11 families made this allegation at the hospital. The exclusion of three allegations—all giving times to onset of problems in months—helped to create the appearance of a 14 day temporal link
* Patients were recruited through anti-MMR campaigners, and the study was commissioned and funded for planned litigation

This fraud is infuriating on so many levels, none more central to me than the enormous waste of pediatric research dollars and subjects. There is a grave paucity of data available on a wide spectrum of medications now commonly used on children: antibiotics, anti-seizure, anti-nausea, antidepressants, anti-psychotics, pain medications, sedatives, appetite stimulants and on and on and on. Running a clinical trial on children is even more expensive and more difficult than on adults. Huge sums of money were wasted trying to reproduce the fraudulent connection between MMR vaccination and autism. Hundreds of children were recruited and run through clinical trials—having their health endangered for this fraud. All of this risk and money could've gone to testing all of these other medications we don't know about—medicines we use on children, and legitimately cannot prove are safe. You should be furious.
Updated: Anthony beat me to it (http://slog.thestranger.com/slog/archives/2011/01/05/study-showing-link-between-autism-and-vaccines-an-elaborate-fraud). Consider my take from the perspective of a scientist and physician.

Permalink (http://slog.thestranger.com/slog/archives/2011/01/05/the-vaccine-autism-connection-an-elaborate-fraud) | Post Comments (36) (http://www.thestranger.com/seattle/Comments?oid=6182049&category=slog)


Science (http://slog.thestranger.com/slog/archives/science/) Study Showing Link Between Autism and Vaccines "An Elaborate Fraud" (http://slog.thestranger.com/slog/archives/2011/01/05/study-showing-link-between-autism-and-vaccines-an-elaborate-fraud)

Posted by Anthony Hecht (http://www.thestranger.com/seattle/ArticleArchives?author=31664) on Wed, Jan 5, 2011 at 6:12 PM

A widely-cited British study claiming to show a link between the childhood MMR vaccine and autism has been shown to be "an elaborate fraud." (http://www.cnn.com/2011/HEALTH/01/05/autism.vaccines/index.html) The science wasn't just bad, it was made up.

A now-retracted British study that linked autism to childhood vaccines was an "elaborate fraud" that has done long-lasting damage to public health, a leading medical publication reported Wednesday.
An investigation published by the British medical journal BMJ concludes the study's author, Dr. Andrew Wakefield, misrepresented or altered the medical histories of all 12 of the patients whose cases formed the basis of the 1998 study — and that there was "no doubt" Wakefield was responsible. I just had a kid a few months ago, and it's absolutely amazing how far and wide this toxic bullshit has spread. In getting ready to have the baby, we would run into friends and acquaintances who "weren't sure" or thought they should be "better safe than sorry," etc. Perfectly reasonable, well-educated, thoughtful people had started to question protecting their children from serious, deadly diseases based on the lies of this guy and others (I'm looking at you, Jenny McCarthy).

Vaccination rates dropped sharply in Britain after [the study's] publication, falling as low as 80% by 2004. Measles cases have gone up sharply in the ensuing years. Children are dying. Can we finally, please, put this matter to rest? There is not now, nor has there ever been, one single shred of evidence that vaccines cause autism. Tell your friends, and vaccinate your babies.
The BMJ has the full story (http://www.bmj.com/content/342/bmj.c5347.full) of how the fraud was uncovered.

[ÑóẊîöʼn]

Absolutely disgusting. It's been clear for a while now that Wakefield's "research" had no scientific merit whatsoever, but it seems now that what motivated him was not concern, but money. What kind of vile shitpiece can sleep at night knowing that they've taken such an advantage of parents' desire to look after their kids as well as their gullibility and ignorance of science?

The worst thing about this is that it has added fuel to the fire (antivaccine hysteria existed before this) that has resulted in more needless deaths in one of the most vulnerable sections of society.

I've heard that enough people have bought into anti-vaxxer crap, that herd immunity has been compromised in some areas. In such cases I think vaccination of children should be mandatory barring explicit medical reasons. There are no excuses.

[ed miliband]

When this thing was at its peak my mum was actually called a bad mother by a number of people for inisisting my sister have the vaccine. :rolleyes:

[Jalapeno Enema]

this news story just started blowing up this morning. It's not the parents that didn't get their children vaccinated that angers me.

It's the researchers who altered data - which caused mass hysteria among the gullible, undereducated masses... who believed a single study to be a scientific fact - that angers me.

Yes, the parents who did not vaccinate children were being stupid, endangered their children, etc., but the researchers are supposed to know better - they're not SUPPOSED to be idiots.

[Quail]

This makes me so angry. Children most likely died because of this, and I bet lots of others got ill. It's a disgusting thing to do, to exploit people's general ignorance for money, especially about something that saves so many lives. Last year I encountered people on more than one occasion who were handing out flyers and telling me not to vaccinate my son and implying I was a bad mother when I told them to get fucked.

[Manic Impressive]

erm I didn't think this was a new story? I remember it being reported as fraud over a year or two ago. What exactly is new?

[Sasha]

its not repoted at being an fraud anymore, its proven.
i for one hadnt heard anymore than there where doubts. the fact that it was an intentional fraud, with explicit gain to earn money is defenitly news to me.

[Vanguard1917]

Dr Michael Fitzpatrick was exposing this "fraud" for years, while Wakefield was still being treated as some kind of hero by the mainstream media.

The war on Dr Wakefield: only 12 years too late (http://www.spiked-online.com/index.php/site/article/8030/)

[Rosa Lichtenstein]

The other side, for once:

http://www.vaccineriskawareness.com/MMR-Single-Vaccines-And-MMRV-Vaccine


Myths: The Lancet Paper (the numbers in brackets refer to footnotes in the original article):

1) Was funded by the Legal Aid Board (LAB) (4)

False – Not one penny of LAB money was spent on The Lancet paper. An LAB grant was provided for a separate viral detection study. This latter study, completed in 1999, does disclose the source of funding. The Lancet paper had been submitted for publication before the LAB grant was even available to be spent.

2) My involvement as a medical expert was kept “secret” (5)

False – at least one year before publication, my senior co-authors (6), the head of department and the dean of the medical school (7), and the CEO of the hospital were informed by me. This fact was also reported in the national press 15 months prior to publication (8).

3) Children were “sourced” by lawyers to sue vaccine manufacturers (5)

False – Children were referred, evaluated, and investigated on the basis of their clinical symptoms alone, following referral from the child’s physician (9).

4) Children were litigants (10)

False – at the time of their referral to the Royal Free, the time material to their inclusion in The Lancet paper, none of the children were litigants.

5) I had an undisclosed conflict of interest (11)

False – The Lancet’s disclosure policy at that time was followed to the letter. Documentary evidence confirms that the editorial staff of The Lancet was fully aware that I was working as an expert on MMR litigation well in advance of the paper’s publication (12).

6) Did not have Ethics Committee (EC) approval (5)

False – The research element of the paper that required such an approval, detailed systematic analysis of children’s intestinal biopsies, was covered by the necessary EC approval (13).

7) I “Fxed” data and misreported clinical findings (14)

False – There is absolutely no basis in fact for this claim and it has been exposed as false (15).

8) Findings have not been independently replicated (12)

False – The key findings of LNH and colitis in ASD children have been independently confirmed in 5 different countries (16).

9) Has been retracted by most of the authors (17)

False – 11 of 13 authors issued a retraction of the interpretation that MMR is a possible trigger for syndrome described. This remains a possibility and a possibility cannot be retracted.

10) The work is discredited (18)

False – Those attempting to discredit the work have relied upon the myths above. The findings described in the paper are novel and important (19)

http://www.autismone.org/content/paper-andrew-wakefield-mb-bs-frcs-frcpath

It's disappointing to see so many here accept uncritically the view put out and by Big Pharma.

However, it's important to add that I am not taking a stance on this, merely concerned that only one suide has been reported here.

[#FF0000]

It's disappointing to see so many here accept uncritically the view put out and by Big Pharma.

But the story for vaccines causing autism has changed over time, hasn't it? Wasn't the original story that the mercury used in vaccines is what caused it? Because they don't use mercury anymore, and autism hasn't gone away.

[Quail]

It's disappointing to see so many here accept uncritically the view put out and by Big Pharma.

Even if I thought there was any credibility to the study, I'd rather put my child at risk of autism than contribute towards a potential outbreak of life-threatening illnesses.

[Rosa Lichtenstein]

Kayl:


Even if I thought there was any credibility to the study, I'd rather put my child at risk of autism than contribute towards a potential outbreak of life-threatening illnesses.

Well, if you check the links I posted you will see that measles is nowhere near as life-threatening as we have been led to believe.

But it's nice to know you value the opinion of Big Pharma over the life/health of any poor sod you father/mother.

[Rosa Lichtenstein]

The Artist Who Keeps Changing His Name:


But the story for vaccines causing autism has changed over time, hasn't it? Wasn't the original story that the mercury used in vaccines is what caused it? Because they don't use mercury anymore, and autism hasn't gone away.

I think that it was part of the problem, but only a small part.

[ÑóẊîöʼn]

It's a site that says, and I quote:


Homeopathy STOPPED Epidemic in Cuba

Large-scale application of highly-diluted bacteria for Leptospirosis epidemic control.
Bracho G, Varela E, Fernández R, Ordaz B, Marzoa N, Menéndez J, García L, Gilling E, Leyva R, Rufín R, de la Torre R, Solis RL, Batista N, Borrero R, Campa C.


And dresses it up like an actual study despite glaringly obvious design flaws in its methodology.

As for the article itself? It's a mess. Cursory reading shows they only quote reputable sources where they support their cause: for example, they go on at length about how mild measles is in "healthy, well-nourished children" (What about the unhealthy ones? Oh, we don't care! :rolleyes: ), but end their analysis there (and often quote single sentences, which is always suspect).

Worst of all, when they criticize studies done on the vaccines, they quote things like the goddamned Pulse Magazine (Lifestyle and entertainment!) or Jenny McCarthy's Generation Rescue foundation, or radio interviews that nobody will ever be able to find and check that they weren't quoted out of context.

They also are trying to make it seem like there was only one or two studies that found no connection between autism and MMR, which is patently false.

They also quote a fucking court sentence. Because we all know that courts can legislate reality :D

There's probably more hilarity, but I don't have the time to read the entire article. It uses the scattergun approach anyway...

[pastradamus]

Even if I thought there was any credibility to the study, I'd rather put my child at risk of autism than contribute towards a potential outbreak of life-threatening illnesses.

Excellent point. I would however like to rephrase the last line into "potential outbreak of a huge multiple of life-threatening illnesses".

[pastradamus]

It's a site that says, and I quote:
And dresses it up like an actual study despite glaringly obvious design flaws in its methodology.


Most obvious of which is that Homeopathy is 100% unproven as a medical treatment. Has been proven time and time again to be 100% pseudo-scientific. No source that quotes homeopathy as being in any way scientific as a medical entity is in anyway credible.

The only thing going for homeopathy these days seems to be a bunch of idiots coupled with a billion-dollar industry and influential PR machine selling products which could distort one from actually seeking real and effective medical treatment and into the arms of pseudo-scientific capitalist quacks.

[Sasha]

But it's nice to know you value the opinion of Big Pharma over the life/health of any poor sod you father/mother.


no, we value science over abscense of science. If i had kids i propably wouldnt vacinate them for the mexican flu or HPV as credible science suggest its not helping. There is no credible scientist daubting the measels etc vacination, its oposition is based on hysteria, religion and snake oil.


Well, if you check the links I posted you will see that measles is nowhere near as life-threatening as we have been led to believe.
measles kill, in the 3th world they kill significantly and used to kill masivly, the fact that it doesnt kill as much in the west is thanx to the vacination programs as proven by our dutch religious anti-vacination nutcases:


Measles, mumps, and rubella vaccination
A very much more serious example is the campaign against combined measles, mumps, and rubella (MMR) vaccination. An imagined association between MMR and autism was portrayed as causal but without a credible mechanism. The absence of an explanation consistent with any generally accepted scientific knowledge would not have mattered if there had been some, or even any, rigorous and reproducible experimental or epidemio- logical evidence in support of either the purported association or a potential causal mechanism linking MMR vaccination to the adverse effects claimed for it. Despite complete absence of any such evidence, once the idea was published in The Lancet and elsewhere, it has proved unstoppable. Raymond Tallis, writing earlier this year in The Times, puts it very clearly:
An instructive instance was the panic over the supposed connection between the MMR vaccine and autism. Careful studies of millions of children who had been immunised, which showed no causal link were regarded as somehow tainted, while the views of junk scientists, and of celebrities whose ignorance was matched only by their reckless irre- sponsibility, were accepted quite uncritically. In the end, science won out but it was a close-run thing and the argument was unconscionably protracted. Even now the Daily Mail is not convinced.22
Tragically it is not just the Daily Mail, but does it matter? The answer is, yes it does.
The single measles vaccine programme had poor uptake; con- trol of measles was only achieved with MMR, and a second dose is essential to prevent resurgence of infection. Furthermore, elimination of congenital rubella was only achievable with MMR, which has also substantially reduced the 1,400 annual hospital admissions for mumps, mostly for meningitis. Congenital rubella, mumps meningoencephalitis, orchitis and ovariitis are not trivial conditions.
The terrible cost of vaccine scares is well documented and should have engendered more appropriate rigour and caution among those promulgating and publishing this one. The scare about pertussis (whooping cough) vaccine led to provision of separate diphtheria+tetanus and pertussis vaccines which undermined confidence in the programme. Vaccination against whooping cough had reduced the number of cases per year in England and Wales from between about 60,000 and 170,000 to about 2,000 per year, but after the scare there were over 200,000 reported cases and an estimated 100 deaths. Despite assertions to the contrary by the MMR scaremongers, measles is also not a trivial condition. It maims and kills a small, but not insignifi- cant, proportion of children in developed countries. In the Netherlands outbreak of 1999–2000, 3,250 cases of measles were notified, 97% of which were in the unvaccinated Dutch Reformed community, around 20% had serious complications, including five cases of encephalitis and three deaths. In the Irish outbreak of 2000, which occurred as a direct result of lower vac- cination rates following the MMR scare which reduced coverage to just 74%, there were 1,500 notified cases and three deaths. There continue to be cases of measles due to poor MMR cov- erage and, tragically, two children who had undergone renal transplantation in London have been severely and irreparably damaged by measles encephalitis.23
In contrast, MMR vaccination is remarkably safe.24,25 In addi- tion to the published studies cited here and the reviews at each meeting of the Committee on Safety of Medicines (CSM) and of the Joint Committee on Vaccination and Immunisation, com- prehensive expert panels convened by the Medical Research Council (MRC) (twice), the CSM, the American Academy of Pediatrics, the Scottish Executive, the Irish Parliament, the British Medical Journal, the World Health Organization (WHO) and the Institute of Medicine (Washington, DC), have reviewed all the available evidence and all have concluded that there is no evidence of a link between MMR and autism. MMR vaccination does not cause autism.7,24–37 Nor does it cause subacute scleros- ing panencephalitis,38 gait disturbance39 or ‘immune overload’.40
564 Clinical Medicine Vol 7 No 6 December 2007

Furthermore, there is no evidence for adverse effects of thio- mersal,41–45 another target of the vaccination scaremongers. The actual side effects of MMR vaccination in children are: mild fever, rash, and anorexia for 6–11 days in 10% (from the measles component); parotid swelling at 2–3 weeks in 1% (from the mumps component); 1 per 1,000 risk of febrile convulsion around 6–11 days (from the measles component); 1 per 24,000 risk of thrombocytopaenic purpura within 2–6 weeks (from the measles or rubella component); 1 per 105 risk of allergic reaction; possible 1 per 106 risk of encephalitis.
In the less developed countries, measles is a major killer and was responsible for an estimated six million deaths annually worldwide before introduction of the measles vaccine in the 1960s. More recently, according to WHO figures, annual deaths had fallen by 60% from 873,000 during 1999 to 345,000 at the end of 2005. Results in Africa are even better with deaths there declining by 75% while global measles deaths in children under five fell from 791,000 to 311,000 over the same period. Altogether, measles vaccinations have prevented 7.5 million deaths between 1999 and 2005, and 2.3 million of these were attributable to the intensified MMR programme of the WHO. What a powerful illustration of the stark contrast between good science that works and bad science that can kill.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18193704

no, if you look at this completly selfish you could choose not to vaccinated your kids against for example polio because (at least until the borders with eastern europe opend) the chance your kid would get it would have been close to zero. But if there is an whole community who doesnt do it, or even only an significant part of the comunity this kind of disaeses can spread and kill (as it routinly does in the dutch reformed comunity), if you dont vaccinate for your own kids at least vaccinate for others

again:
Altogether, measles vaccinations have prevented 7.5 million deaths between 1999 and 2005communist vacinate

[ed miliband]

It isn't just a measles vaccination either, it's a vaccination for mumps and rubella too. Two years ago a girl at my school very nearly died after contracting mumps, and it spread quite rapidly around the school.

[pastradamus]

no, if you look at this completly selfish you could choose not to vaccinated your kids against for example polio because (at least until the borders with eastern europe opend) the chance your kid would get it would have been close to zero. But if there is an whole community who doesnt do it, or even only an significant part of the comunity this kind of disaeses can spread and kill (as it routinly does in the dutch reformed comunity), if you dont vaccinate for your own kids at least vaccinate for others


Absolutely,

To simply take the polio vaccine at hand as an example. We must not only talk about what polio does to a human being but also about the millions of people we have prevented against this horrible condition. The figures in the western world since the introduction of the polio vaccine speak for themselves. With many nations eradicating it and this can only be due to the vaccine.

It is in the interest of Left-wing people of all creeds to eradicate such a disease as polio. We dont want images such as this to come back to haunt us based on some absurd reasoning:

http://pathmicro.med.sc.edu/lecture/images/polioboy.jpg

[Rosa Lichtenstein]

Noxion:


And dresses it up like an actual study despite glaringly obvious design flaws in its methodology.

I'm not defending everything at that site, any more than you'd defend everything posted at RevLeft.


As for the article itself? It's a mess. Cursory reading shows they only quote reputable sources where they support their cause: for example, they go on at length about how mild measles is in "healthy, well-nourished children" (What about the unhealthy ones? Oh, we don't care! ), but end their analysis there (and often quote single sentences, which is always suspect).

1) Yes, 'cursory' readings are fair.:rolleyes:

2) Of course, with 'unhealthy' children, the demand from the left should be that they are made well (or their social circumstances improved so that they do not become unwell), rather than have this noxious chemical inflicted upon them.

Failing that, they should, be innoculated as the lesser of two evils.

3) The pro-Pharma crowd here only quote things that support their case. Except, since we are on the left, we should automatically be suspicious of anything Big Pharma and their ideologues come out with.


Worst of all, when they criticize studies done on the vaccines, they quote things like the goddamned Pulse Magazine (Lifestyle and entertainment!) or Jenny McCarthy's Generation Rescue foundation, or radio interviews that nobody will ever be able to find and check that they weren't quoted out of context.

Among other sources, of course.


They also are trying to make it seem like there was only one or two studies that found no connection between autism and MMR, which is patently false.[/QUOTE

Well, if you know of any others, let's see them.

[QUOTE]They also quote a fucking court sentence. Because we all know that courts can legislate reality

Well, why would a bourgeois court arrive at a decision that ran against the propaganda Big Pharma churns out unless it was patently correct to do so?

And may I remind you that The Lancet is no less a product of the system than the courts are. As is Big Pharma. You choose to accept these tainted sources, but deride the other side for doing the same.:lol:


There's probably more hilarity, but I don't have the time to read the entire article. It uses the scattergun approach anyway...

Whereas you merely fire blanks...

[Rosa Lichtenstein]

Pastradamus:


Excellent point. I would however like to rephrase the last line into "potential outbreak of a huge multiple of life-threatening illnesses".

As was my reply:


Well, if you check the links I posted you will see that measles is nowhere near as life-threatening as we have been led to believe.

But it's nice to know you value the opinion of Big Pharma over the life/health of any poor sod you father/mother.

[Rosa Lichtenstein]

Pastradamus:


Most obvious of which is that Homeopathy is 100% unproven as a medical treatment. Has been proven time and time again to be 100% pseudo-scientific. No source that quotes homeopathy as being in any way scientific as a medical entity is in anyway credible.

1.What has that got to do with measles?

2. If the history of science shows us anything it is that what is accepted as 'orthodoxy' one minute is later overturned, and the theories of alleged 'quacks' often become the next orthodoxy. I'm not saying this will happen with homeopathy, only that only someone ignorant of the history of science will rule this out.

Until the work of Semmelweis (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ignaz_Semmelweis), Pasteur (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Louis_Pasteur) and Koch (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Koch), those who believed that diseases were caused by bacteria were regarded as 'quacks'. As recently as 20 years ago, the idea that stomach ulcers were caused by Helicobacter pylori (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Helicobacter_pylori) was laughed off by 'experts', until they were forced to eat their derision. The history of medical science is littered with such stories.

When my father (a highly qualified doctor) escaped from Nazi Europe (on the very last train out), he gained employment in various hospitals in wartime Britain. He was appalled at the primitive techniques used by tradition-bound UK doctors. So, he introduced a whole range of simple new techniques which saved countless lives -- but at first he was called a 'quack' and found it hard to find posts after he was continually being sacked. But, because he had upset the 'old boy' network (that still operates in medicine in the UK), when the war ended, he was refused jobs throughout the UK, and branded a 'quack' once more. However, his innovations became standard practice after the war.

So, don't tell me about 'quacks'.


The only thing going for homeopathy these days seems to be a bunch of idiots coupled with a billion-dollar industry and influential PR machine selling products which could distort one from actually seeking real and effective medical treatment and into the arms of pseudo-scientific capitalist quacks.

Maybe so, but Big Pharma spends far more spreading these 'quack' stories.

[Rosa Lichtenstein]

Psycho:


no, we value science over abscense of science.

Who is arguing for the absence of science? Not me.

What we need, however, is a rational debate (including a fair appraisal of both sides of the argument) where researchers are not branded frauds and liars becasue they have the temerity to question orthodoxy (surely an excellent scientific virtue, or it would not have advanced) and the interests of Big Pharma.

Well, it looks like we're not going to get that here...


If i had kids i propably wouldnt vacinate them for the mexican flu or HPV as credible science suggest its not helping. There is no credible scientist daubting the measels etc vacination, its oposition is based on hysteria, religion and snake oil.

By 'credible scientists' you seem to mean 'those who side with orthodoxy'.


the fact that it doesnt kill as much in the west is thanx to the vacination programs as proven by our dutch religious anti-vacination nutcases:

Well, as that site shows, there is abundant evidence that this is not so.


communists vaccinate

Maybe so, but so what? All I am saying is that, as with other things in science, we need to look at both sides.

What is so unreasonable about that?

[Sasha]

What is so unreasonable about that?

there is nothing wrong with:

Who is arguing for the absence of science? Not me.

What we need, however, is a rational debate (including a fair appraisal of both sides of the argument) where researchers are not branded frauds and liars becasue they have the temerity to question orthodoxy (surely an excellent scientific virtue, or it would not have advanced) and the interests of Big Pharma.and


Maybe so, but so what? All I am saying is that, as with other things in science, we need to look at both sides.
but

*godwin alert*

the site you are linking too is not the other scientific side, its the equalivant of in an debate on the holocaust pointing at David Irving or Erst Zundel.

that is NOT the other side, its absolutly NOT science (and Irving is an actual once respected historian, so no; if someone on that site you are linking too happens to haven an medical degree that doesnt automaticly make them an serious source), its NOT an opinion i have to take seriously in any shape or form and it disqualifies anyone resorting to them for arguments.

you want to present an counterweight to science sponsord by big pharma? thats fine and i would be very intrested but you will have to present science not propaganda by conspiracy nuts.

[The Red Next Door]

Kayl:



Well, if you check the links I posted you will see that measles is nowhere near as life-threatening as we have been led to believe.

But it's nice to know you value the opinion of Big Pharma over the life/health of any poor sod you father/mother.

You know: what you should do is shut the fuck up. Leave her alone, and stop being a self righteous troll. she trying to raise a kid to be safe and okay, plus having autism is not that bad speaking personally. unless you have the extreme form. but hey normal is boring; and austic children are unique.

[Vanguard1917]

A year or so back, Rosa Lichtenstein accused me of supporting "Big Pharma" because i argued that people in poor countries should have access to the best medical care humanity has to offer. That taught me to take anything she has to say with a pinch of salt.

[ÑóẊîöʼn]

I'm not defending everything at that site, any more than you'd defend everything posted at RevLeft.

Support of homeopathy is a big fat warning sign (as if the site being called " vaccine risk awareness" wasn't a big enough one already). Unlike Revleft, the website you posted for all I know could have only a single or a handful of authors.


1) Yes, 'cursory' readings are fair.:rolleyes:

When someone posts a link to cranky website, a cursory reading is all that is needed.


2) Of course, with 'unhealthy' children, the demand from the left should be that they are made well (or their social circumstances improved so that they do not become unwell), rather than have this noxious chemical inflicted upon them.

"Noxious chemical"? Do you know fucking anything about how vaccines work? I suspect not.


Failing that, they should, be innoculated as the lesser of two evils.

3) The pro-Pharma crowd here only quote things that support their case. Except, since we are on the left, we should automatically be suspicious of anything Big Pharma and their ideologues come out with.

The anti-vaxxers are stooges for Big Pharma's siamese twin, the health supplement and alternative medicine industry. It's big business, just like everything else, so I take protestations from anti-vaxxers as the content-free yelping that it is.


Among other sources, of course.

Any that aren't complete and utter shite? A lot of them also seem to be national newspapers. Funny how they suddenly support your case when they're making an argument you happen to agree with, eh?

This is not forgetting the part that the mainstream media has had in stirring up this pseudo-controversy. Now their motives are suddenly pure enough to trust? But not that of the Lancet. How convenient!


Well, if you know of any others, let's see them.

The burden of proof is yours to satisfy, not mine.


Well, why would a bourgeois court arrive at a decision that ran against the propaganda Big Pharma churns out unless it was patently correct to do so?

Because courts are human like the rest of us, duh.


And may I remind you that The Lancet is no less a product of the system than the courts are. As is Big Pharma. You choose to accept these tainted sources, but deride the other side for doing the same. :lol:

Except that I don't link to crank websites.

[pastradamus]

Pastradamus:



1.What has that got to do with measles?


It dosen't. Homeopathy was mentioned in the article quoted by Noxion.



2. If the history of science shows us anything it is that what is accepted as 'orthodoxy' one minute is later overturned, and the theories of alleged 'quacks' often become the next orthodoxy. I'm not saying this will happen with homeopathy, only that only someone ignorant of the history of science will rule this out

History of science shows us that these people (koch pasteur etc) are correct. Scientific history of homeopathy shows us that it is simply a myth based on no reason or any scientific fact.


Until the work of Semmelweis (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ignaz_Semmelweis), Pasteur (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Louis_Pasteur) and Koch (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Koch), those who believed that diseases were caused by bacteria were regarded as 'quacks'. As recently as 20 years ago, the idea that stomach ulcers were caused by Helicobacter pylori (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Helicobacter_pylori) was laughed off by 'experts', until they were forced to eat their derision. The history of medical science is littered with such stories.

Yes and helicobacter pylori (I got it a few years back - almost killed me) was demonstratively shown to cause the virus - scientifically.


When my father (a highly qualified doctor) escaped from Nazi Europe (on the very last train out), he gained employment in various hospitals in wartime Britain. He was appalled at the primitive techniques used by tradition-bound UK doctors. So, he introduced a whole range of simple new techniques which saved countless lives -- but at first he was called a 'quack' and found it hard to find posts after he was continually being sacked. But, because he had upset the 'old boy' network (that still operates in medicine in the UK), when the war ended, he was refused jobs throughout the UK, and branded a 'quack' once more. However, his innovations became standard practice after the war.


Well, I dont think I should be a responsible apologist for those assholes. Your father sounds like a fascinating person.


So, don't tell me about 'quacks'.
No, I will tell you about them but I wont apply it loosely (as those dickheads in the UK hospitals applied it to your father), I will apply it to people who use such nonsense as homepathy to rip people out of hard-earned money with pseudoscience.




Maybe so, but Big Pharma spends far more spreading these 'quack' stories.
Well, its big pharma who profit off homeopathic "medicine" and im disappointed to see that the NHS has allowed this crap to be used in public hospitals. It seems only a policy change or a death will convince them at this stage that proper proven medicine with scientific evidence is the only way to go.

[Sasha]

Panic / Health / ??!!



Outraged Child Killers to Protest Against Bill Gates For Calling Them "Child Killers"


by Goldy

on Wed, Feb 23, 2011 at 7:54 PM

I don't usually read any of the dozens of press releases that flood my inbox each day, but this one from the New York City Coalition for Vaccine Safety and Autism Advocacy Organizations had a long headline in BOLD CAPS, so of course, it caught my attention:


OUTRAGED AUTISM GROUPS AND LEADERS TO ANNOUNCE 50,000-PARENT PROTEST IN NYC AGAINST BILLIONAIRE AND MICROSOFT CHAIRMAN BILL GATES AFTER BEING CALLED "CHILD KILLERS"

Bill Gates called autism advocacy groups "child killers"? Wow. That's outrageous. Except, in Gates' defense, A) he didn't call autism groups who advocate against childhood vaccines "child killers," he said that they "kill children," and B) autism groups who advocate against childhood vaccines are child killers.
I mean, setting aside the fact that no credible scientific study has ever proven a causal link between childhood vaccines and autism, and the fact that the original study that sparked all this anti-vaccine hysteria was recently retracted as an "elaborate fraud," objectively, autism doesn't kill children, but childhood diseases do. Some of these unvaccinated children will needlessly get sick and die, as will other children too young or immune-compromised to be vaccinated, who subsequently catch illness due to the lack of herd immunity. So yes, I think it fair to say that these anti-vaccine advocates are "killing children," if indirectly.
And you know what else these vaccine deniers are? Fucking idiots who cannot accept that the "scientific" evidence on which their entire crusade is based simply no longer exists. You know what else doesn't exist? The Easter Bunny, Santa Claus and God. Believe in any or all of them if you please, but don't claim your faith is based on science, because it's not.
Now, I don't mean to be insensitive to the parents of autistic children. I'm a parent myself, and I can imagine how devastated I would have been had my daughter been diagnosed with autism. But you know what? Just because something awful afflicts your child and your family, doesn't mean it is somebody else's fault. Bad things happen, sometimes with no explanation, so if you have a God, and it makes you feel better, blame Him. But don't blame Bill Gates for trying to save millions of people through childhood vaccination; he's already got enough blood on his hands for Windows Vista.
And for goodness sake, get your kids vaccinated already!

The vaccine conspiracy dude who is getting slammed in the comments would be funny if it wasnt so dangerous.
Http://slog.thestranger.com/slog/archives/2011/02/23/outraged-child-killers-to-protest-bill-gates-for-calling-them-child-killers

[Wanted Man]

I'm with Rosa. Fuck Big Pharma. Let's instead support a multi-billion dollar industry based on pills that do nothing, and will never be able to do anything without some form of divine intervention on some arbitrary political preferences. Fucking bourgeois science.

Note that Rosa's suggestion that she doesn't actually support "vaccine awareness" and homeopathy is just the typical Glenn Beck smokescreen: first you disclaim any interest in the subject, and you simply "give the other side" (just like how Intelligent Design supporters try to "Teach the Controversy" in order to sneak creationism into American schools) by suggesting a few links. Then when these links get criticised, suddenly you defend them to the death and accuse your opponent of being in the pocket of some kind of special interest.

This is the M.O. of all pseudoscientists in existence, from homeopaths to psychics. Maybe Rosa is hearing voices as well?