The mature thread which is adult and grown up.

[NecroCommie]

I am now officially full of people trying to hide their elitism under terms such as "mature", or "grown up". The funny thing is that everyone seems to have completely different views on what maturity exactly is, and for some obscure reason they seem to think being mature is better than being immature. What these people utterly fail to understand is that the only thing we can objectively say about maturity, is that the people who think of themselves as such use the word to express how much better they think they are.

"Ooh, I am soo mature that I think you should be mature too"
"What makes you mature?"
"Well, first of all I have come to terms with insert things you think everyone should "come to terms with""

/rant

[Sensible Socialist]

Most people refer to becoming older and gaining maturity as coming to peace with the establishment. If that is the case, I'd rather go Peter Pan and be a child all my life.

[NecroCommie]

Yeah, with that too they are trying to say that people who are pro-status quo are better than other people. Which is ofcourse bogus, but the idiocy of the statement is harder to detect when hidden behind "maturity".

[¿Que?]

I'm over 30 and on revleft. So I guess maturity is not my strong point.

[Geiseric]

I don't think mature is necessarily selling out, but more with becoming an individual and having self control.

[FreeFocus]

That saying that goes something like, "If you aren't a socialist at 20, you have no heart; If you're still a socialist at 40, you have no brain," always pisses me off.

People use "maturity" basically to dismiss someone else's argument, but sometimes it's legitimate. For example, resorting to heavy insults or having woefully inadequate analysis could be "immature."

[hatzel]

I'm over 30 and on revleft. So I guess maturity is not my strong point.

http://i137.photobucket.com/albums/q212/medstud/pedo-bear-too-old.jpg

/sarcasm

So I'm hardly mature, but I don't really care...

But actually, the beards the likes of Marx and Kropotkin were packing did give them a certain air of maturity. I wonder if that was just to compensate for their immaturity in other fields...

[¿Que?]

http://i137.photobucket.com/albums/q212/medstud/pedo-bear-too-old.jpg

/sarcasm


Sarcasm or no, that really hurts. When you grow up, you learn to be more conscientious of people's feelings. Nah, I'm just fuckin' with you.:lol:

[Prairie Fire]

I am now officially full of people trying to hide their elitism under terms such as "mature", or "grown up". The funny thing is that everyone seems to have completely different views on what maturity exactly is, and for some obscure reason they seem to think being mature is better than being immature. What these people utterly fail to understand is that the only thing we can objectively say about maturity, is that the people who think of themselves as such use the word to express how much better they think they are.

"Ooh, I am soo mature that I think you should be mature too"
"What makes you mature?"
"Well, first of all I have come to terms with insert things you think everyone should "come to terms with""

/rant


At first, I was wondering why this was in 'politics'...

I guess it is a fitting discussion, especially given the growing number of simplistic posts and juvenile threads that have been showing up lately, which is alarmingly high and unusual even for revleft.

Perhaps a discussion on 'maturity' is the order of the day.

In regards to accusations of 'immaturity' levelled by non-socialist political adversaries, I pay no mind to them. It is a trick argument that you are never going to win, when political legitimacy is subjected to a persyns age.

If you are socialist and under the age of 40, you are classified as a naive idealist, too young to understand the 'real world', a silly child going through a fad that you will undoubtedly grow out of.

If you are socialist and over the age of 40, you are classified as an obstinate old hardliner, incapable of seeing that the world has changed and adapting yourself accordingly, a stubborn old dog that refuses to learn new tricks.

There is no way to win this argument, which is why I don't let my political adversaries reduce the discussion to the persynal attributes and qualities of individuals.

In the case of the politics present and debated within the large strata of the left however, I don't think that it is "elitist" to take the point of view that many of these political stances are severely uninformed at best, and complete nonsense at worst.

It is in this sense, that when Lenin refered to left wing communism as an "infantile disorder", I don't think that this was an inappropriate swipe at the intellectual capacities of infants, nor do I think that it is "elitst". Ideally,all of our politics are supposed to be materialist and scientific. In this sense, we are absolutists, as either something is either objectively true or it is false. There is very little room for subjective ecclecticism.

In this sense, while it is certainly annoying/frusterating for an opponent to assume an air of intellectual superiority,at the same time there is objective truth and empirical scientific fact in the equation. For an opponent to assume that their own point of view is correct, and ridicule yours as nonsense is rude perhaps, but not "elitist".

As rude as they may be, objectively they could be right, and you could be wrong. Not all opinions are of equal merit, especially when it comes to concrete circumstances.

As far as using the word "immature" and it's synonyms as pejoratives, Again this is rude and condescending, but I can't definatively say that it is incorrect in abstraction.

While it often disrespectful and a generalization to always assume that older people are intellectually superior to younger people,this is often accurate as well, especially in the case of adults and children.

Case in point, when I was young, I put my tongue on metal outdoors during the winter, and it froze and stuck. I would hardly think that it is prejudiced, "ageism" or condescending to assume that had I not been under the age of 10 at the time, I wouldn't have done that. In this sense, there is something to be said about age in relation to direct experiences, and maturity in relation to immaturity.

Scientifically speaking, humyns don't develope abstract thinking skills until adolescence anyways, so again it is hardly "elitist" to assume that older people who possess physically superior neural problem solving abilities would have a more solid world outlook than younger people who are still in the process of development.

In the sense of politics, "maturity" and "immaturity" have nothing to do with the literal age or the intellectual capacity of the individual adhearants. It has more to do with the accuracy of world outlooks, tactical pragmatism, organization, etc, etc.

All revolutionaries and their respective political outlooks are subjected to maturing,as real life either confirms or disproves their thesis's, and they adapt accordingly. For myself, I will say that I have been a Marxist-Leninist since I was 14, but I will still say that my grasp of theory and politics has matured constantly during this time period. Practice has refined my methods, experience has refined my theory. While I would say that many of my previous stances were erroneous and objectively incorrect, this doesn't necessarilly have to transfer over into a social paradigm of "elite" and inferiors.

"Maturity" is what we should always be striving for in our political outlooks, refining our methods and theory to reflect the world accurately, and organizing for victory on this basis. In this sense, confronting others about their own tactics which are either objectively correct or incorrect is maybe tactless and confrontational, but hardly "elitist".

[Tablo]

I have at times had my views dismissed as being immature in debates with older people when they were simply incapable of gathering a single fault in my perspective without me countering it. Immature, naive, etc.. they are all just meaningless insults used to dismiss other people's views.

[NecroCommie]

I would agree with PF in all but one detail. I think you missed the point that "mature" can mean physical/actual age, or a mindset that people try to justify. They can say for example: "You are old but you need to reach maturity". When used in this "mature" mindset way it is then nothing but an attempt at claiming your own views as superior without having to argue them at all.

Or?

[FreeFocus]

I would agree with PF in all but one detail. I think you missed the point that "mature" can mean physical/actual age, or a mindset that people try to justify. They can say for example: "You are old but you need to reach maturity". When used in this "mature" mindset way it is then nothing but an attempt at claiming your own views as superior without having to argue them at all.

Or?

I think there's a lot of immature people who are old as hell, though.

[NecroCommie]

I think there's a lot of immature people who are old as hell, though.
But who defines mental maturity? I agree in the sense that there is a good deal of non-constructive, de-constructive and just plain stupid old-people, but I have no authority to classify any of these characteristics into "mature" or "immature" category.

[FreeFocus]

But who defines mental maturity? I agree in the sense that there is a good deal of non-constructive, de-constructive and just plain stupid old-people, but I have no authority to classify any of these characteristics into "mature" or "immature" category.

In that case, who defines anything? We can use that argument about any given subject at hand. A lot of it is opinion. I think that living irresponsibly is immature. With life experience, it's something that people should overcome. Not all older people do, though. This would be immature, in my opinion.

[NecroCommie]

In that case, who defines anything? We can use that argument about any given subject at hand. A lot of it is opinion. I think that living irresponsibly is immature. With life experience, it's something that people should overcome. Not all older people do, though. This would be immature, in my opinion.
The point is that mental maturity cannot be objectively defined. It is impossible, it is a concept that has nothing to do with the material world. Many other concepts can be objectively defined.

Ask Rosa for more accurate analysis though. We obviously agree on what kind of behaviour is desirable and what is not.

[Political_Chucky]

In that case, who defines anything? We can use that argument about any given subject at hand. A lot of it is opinion. I think that living irresponsibly is immature. With life experience, it's something that people should overcome. Not all older people do, though. This would be immature, in my opinion.

I totally agree. Especially with irresponsibility being immature. Isn't that where the word would stem from?

I don't think its a bad thing to think of yourself more mature either. Its a bit of an egotisitical thing, but it kinda defines where your values are, and where you don't want to be. For example, when I was working warehouse, there were definitely a lot of people there who I would consider immature, such as constantly starting fights over nothing, purposely trying to annoy you to attempt some type of retaliation for no reason...or even in a more general sense with people who have responsibilities to take care of their family by putting food on the table, yet go and spend most of their money at the strip club(I know these people). I would say that would define immaturity on my grounds.

But its all opinion.

[~Spectre]

Remember, you're only young once, but you can be immature forever.

[hatzel]

Remember, you're only young once, but you can be immature forever.

Youth is wasted on the young, as they say...

[Tablo]

Youth is wasted on the young, as they say...
Well the mature would waste it sleeping and doing constructive things that don't get you high.

[Vladimir Innit Lenin]

I don't mind someone pointing out another person's immaturity, if it's a genuine criticism.

I do, however, hate the whole 'Socialist when you're young, conservative when you're old' thing, that it used to patronise students, young Socialists etc. My parents' generation is especially guilty of this.