American 'values' [Archive]

Che a chara

5th January 2011, 04:52

I know it's a Fox 'news' article, but it's bewildering that these muppets can get away with spouting such tripe.

Regarding American foreign policy (exporting their values :rolleyes:):

A more focused, smaller and cheaper effort centered on building larger middle classes in a few key foreign areas would be far more useful to U.S. interests.

We need to get our head in the game, with programs designed to fight the key threats America faces today: Islamism and its terrorist spawn, the Iranian regime, China’s bullying government, and select tyrants and kleptocrats.
http://www.foxnews.com/opinion/2011/01/04/export-american-values-socialism/?

Here is one of the comments that was left by 'dandylion123':

Our Country has no more American values. Here is proof. My daughter has MS and congestive heart failure. Yesterday she went to her doctor for normal treatment for when her heart beat speeds up. Her regular doctor was not there but another doctor was sitting in for him...He started out bashing towns in America...went on a tirade on drinking even after my daughter said she doesn't drink, never has and never will. Then he said he was a Vegan and runs every day...Told her to drink onion juice.... which she is allergic to...He refused to treat her until she went to the hospital for tests which she has had 100 times and doesn't need...Then he said .."And then Allah willing I will treat you." She said what did you say?" He repeated it..Allah willing....She said, "Are you a Muzzlum? " He said emphatically..."Yes I'm am muzzlum!!" She said good-bye and got up to leave. He called her a bigot and said if she left she would not be treated there ever again. She said,"I'm a Christian and don't want you treating me since you think I'm an Infidel"....and left. The girl in the office who knows her well, followed her to the car and said she would call the ER and explain and for her to go to the ER for treatment. She apologized. The ER treated her in 15 minutes and saved her life by getting her heart beating normally again...Then she went to the Walmart where she needed to cash a check...She waited in line for almost an hour behind a line of people returning things, none of them speaking English...The man behind her commented on all the non-speaking people in the State must be there today. She said ...How do you like waiting an hour while non-citizens who can't speak English slow up the line. In a couple minutes the store manager came up to her and told her to leave the store...She asked why?...because she had done nothing wrong and if she had to call the police. The manager stomped off. My daughter assumed a non-citizen had overheard her and complained. Evidently we have no more free speech even when talking calmly in a personal conversation. She came home and asked me if we are still living in America? I wasn't sure what to tell her but I'm pretty sure we aren't. We are now a third world country and am positive we have no more American values because we have no more Americans here. Maybe we should be sending all the for.eig.ners...to these countries and restore our own values.

Keep your American values. Fucking wingnuts.

Che a chara

5th January 2011, 05:00

Diello

5th January 2011, 05:08

The right are getting more extreme. Can someone from the USA please tell me what the right-wing see as 'real American values' ? Their list gets bigger each and every day, and I can probably see some substance in that study (http://www.revleft.com/vb/study-conservatives-have-t147428/index.html?t=147428), the more they hear, the more they start to fear. It's a real example of xenophobia and hatred of change. Smaller brains perhaps...

Trying to have a conversation with a neocon is a filthy and degrading business. The ignorance and bigotry is something fierce.

I've spent most of my life in red (not the good kind) states, and still I have a fairly vague idea of what is actually referred to by "American values" (a.k.a. "traditional values" etc.). "American values" are sometimes said to include the prohibition of same-sex marriage, the continuation of drug prohibitions, tougher regulations against illegal immigration, the reinvigoration of Christian dominance over culture-- prayer in schools and so forth, and sometimes, depending on whom you're asking, the expurgation of evolution from school curricula and tighter regulations on pornography and other media deemed offensive.

Oh, and, of course, an end to what's perceived as political correctness.

P.S.- Re-banning abortion, ending the availability of contraceptives to teenagers, ending sex ed in high school, and re-stigmatizing premarital sex also sometimes figure in.

ExUnoDisceOmnes

5th January 2011, 05:21

I've spent most of my life in red (not the good kind) states, and still I have a fairly vague idea of what is actually referred to by "American values" (a.k.a. "traditional values" etc.). "American values" are sometimes said to include the prohibition of same-sex marriage, the continuation of drug prohibitions, tougher regulations against illegal immigration, the reinvigoration of Christian dominance over culture-- prayer in schools and so forth, and sometimes, depending on whom you're asking, the expurgation of evolution from school curricula and tighter regulations on pornography and other media deemed offensive.

Oh, and, of course, an end to what's perceived as political correctness.

P.S.- Re-banning abortion, ending the availability of contraceptives to teenagers, ending sex ed in high school, and re-stigmatizing premarital sex also sometimes figure in.

As an American, I'll take a go at this one. American values, loosely defined, are usually extended from the beliefs of the American "founding fathers." They are all incredibly vague, but include: freedom, free trade, acting honorably, religious righteousness. Some others have been added by recent presidents: "protecting world democracy", etc. but these are mostly considered to be derived from those of the founding fathers.

Reading two documents: The Declaration of Independence, and The Constitution will give you an idea of traditional American values. Some are good, in themselves. But the way that they're interpreted and extended into other issues is frightening.

ExUnoDisceOmnes

5th January 2011, 05:22

The American government and average American citizen are both hypocrites about them, by the way. Sometimes they're used to justify despicable actions

Diello

5th January 2011, 05:58

As an American, I'll take a go at this one. American values, loosely defined, are usually extended from the beliefs of the American "founding fathers." They are all incredibly vague, but include: freedom, free trade, acting honorably, religious righteousness. Some others have been added by recent presidents: "protecting world democracy", etc. but these are mostly considered to be derived from those of the founding fathers.

Reading two documents: The Declaration of Independence, and The Constitution will give you an idea of traditional American values. Some are good, in themselves. But the way that they're interpreted and extended into other issues is frightening.

Ah, yes-- this is an angle I should have mentioned. A fetishistic attitude toward the founding fathers and the Constitution and other documents is a strong sign that one holds "American values."

Arguments against things like the separation of church and state never take the form of "The Constitution is wrong!"; it's always "No, that's not what the Constitution says!"

(I say this for the benefit of the OP; I imagine you're painfully aware of it all already.)

#FF0000

5th January 2011, 06:02

*goes to a doctor and finds out he is brown*

IS THIS STILL AMERICA? I CAN'T TELL

RGacky3

5th January 2011, 06:03

There are no American Values, none, different people have different values, different founding fathers also had different values, they were politicians, i.e. they did'nt agree on things.

5th January 2011, 06:04

Can someone from the USA please tell me what the right-wing see as 'real American values' ?What "values" are considered "right-wing" most places?

Rabid national chauvinism, religious fanaticism and bigotry, xenophobia, sexism/misogyny, extreme social conservatism, so on and so forth.

Diello

5th January 2011, 08:16

Rabid national chauvinism, religious fanaticism and bigotry, xenophobia, sexism/misogyny, extreme social conservatism, so on and so forth.

Ahem! I think you mean healthy pride in one's country, strong faith in Christ, belief that people should work for a living instead of sneaking into some other country illegally, and believing that ladies should act as ladies.

*starts singing* GOD BLESS AMERICA, LAND THAT I LOOOOOVE... STAND BESIDE HER... AND GUIDE HER... THROUGH THE NIGHT WITH A LIGHT FROM ABOVE!

5th January 2011, 08:57

Ahem! I think you mean healthy pride in one's country, strong faith in Christ, belief that people should work for a living instead of sneaking into some other country illegally, and believing that ladies should act as ladies.

*starts singing* GOD BLESS AMERICA, LAND THAT I LOOOOOVE... STAND BESIDE HER... AND GUIDE HER... THROUGH THE NIGHT WITH A LIGHT FROM ABOVE!

Tbh, a lot of people have reactionary views on some things; it doesn't mean they're drooling idiots.

Widerstand

5th January 2011, 09:04

How many of these are actually left over from Puritanism?

Tbh, a lot of people have reactionary views on some things; it doesn't mean they're drooling idiots.

Nope, there are drooling idiots amongst non-reactionaries as well.

Jimmie Higgins

5th January 2011, 10:12

American Values are just bourgeois-values and reflect the attitudes that the US ruling class wants to promote. Since capitalist democracies are supposedly "free" and can't tell people what to do because God or a King decreed it, these ruling classes usually promote "values" and social "morals" to both keep people in line ideologically and blame the victims of the system for failing to live up to the "moral ideal".

So for the right-wing reflecting ruling class attitudes at a time of economic crisis and increased imperialist competition and conflict, the problem in society isn't mass unemployment, 30 years of declining living standards and rising rates of exploitation, lack of health-care or education opportunities, racism and racial economic inequality... the problem is that too few people live up to this vague ideal of "American Values" and morals.

If you watch old Frank Capra movies and things like that, you'd find that "American Values" reflected much more of the values of the New Deal coalition and liberal petty-bourgeois: labor-employer peace, guns and butter foreign policy, charity for the poor, selfless social and community service, idolization of a "pure" semi-rural community-based life and so on. Potterville (which is much more in line with the values currently promoted by the ruling class through the right-wing - everything privatized and optimized for profit-making) was the distopia whereas a petty-bourgeois community where everyone knows eachother, keeps their doors unlocked, and helps their neighbors was the ideal.

But that was at a time when the US ruling class wanted class peace and was willing to grant more reforms and allow unionization domestically so it could consolidate it's imperial gains. Now that the ruling class since the 70s has rejected the new deal coalition, Keynesian economic policies in favor of attacks on labor and elimination of reforms won in the past by the labor movement and then the civil rights movements, "American Values" have shifted to reflect that. Now we are told to aspire to autonomous nuclear families as the best organization of our social lives, competition with our fellow workers, hatred of the poor, sick, and drug-addicted, "rugged individualism" and self-reliance (really as a means to promote anti-solidarity sentiments and class-based identification with others). Promoting a set of values which are basically, selfishness, xenophobia (both fear of other nationalities but also just your neighbors and coworkers), and coldness to the suffering of other people in society or around the world fits in nicely with a ruling class agenda of increased exploitation and attacks on the working class... if you recognize the pain of people going through foreclosures or getting fired, you are thought to be weak and deficient in brains or machismo, if you are part of an oppressed group, then you are a crybaby who would rather complain and wallow in poverty than suck it up like a "real American". It's the American version of the British "stiff upper lip" which serves the same purpose... don't complain about conditions or you not worthy of respect.

America today is Britain before WWI - all our rulers have left to keep the system going is xenophobia, jingoism, anti-arab racism, and endless wars to cling onto a decaying world empire that no longer has the economic dominance it had.

Che a chara

5th January 2011, 14:30

Hypocrisy, irony and bullshit must be a right-wing American value.

Religion matters in American politics because the majority of Americans--people who go to church on Sunday, to work on Monday and in the voting booth on Tuesday--believe in a God more powerful than themselves. It matters because the vast majority of Americans want honorable leaders who profess a belief in a God who will someday hold them accountable for their actions in this world. (http://www.ouramericanvalues.org/press_release_article.php?id=43)

This was in a press release by religious neocons 'celebrating President Bush's second inauguration'.

I also often hear the myth that the USA was founded on 'Judeo-Christian' principles. is there any proof to contradict this ? It seems that those who say such can't grapple with the fact of evolution and human development.

Another quote of interest from the religious right spouting supposed American values:

Feminism has wreaked havoc on marriage, women, children and men. It is time to redress the disorder it has wrought and that must start with getting the principles and ideals for a new "masculinism" right. Such a "masculinism" will have its dovetailing counterpart in a new "feminism" for they mutually define each other and, in nature, are meant to be complimentary (http://www.rightwingwatch.org/content/values-voter-summit-gets-times).

Che a chara

5th January 2011, 14:32

Right-Wing Tyrants and American Values

There are many right-wing politicians who are claiming that America's values are under siege.

The correct response is, that depends on what you mean by American values.

If you see it an American value to pollute without sight for the future and for what it does to the rest of the world, then that "value" should be under siege. Likewise if you see it an American value to molest your children and beat your wife, that value should be under siege as well. As for the values that actually made America great - innovation, ingenuity, risk-taking and boldly forging forth into the unknown - these values are not only not under siege, but are being enthusiastically affirmed. So the people who claim that American values are under siege are obviously lying.

Who are these people? Well let me first tell you who they are not.

They are not the "American taxpayer." America gathers majority of its taxes from Democratic-voting states, with California leading the way.

They are not the "American patriots." No American patriot would wear an enemy Confederate flag on his truck; believe 9-11 to have been punishment for America; or accept an unelected Bush regime put into place through fraud and corruption and have that regime put America $6 trillion in debt and into the worst economic crisis since Great Depression.

They are not "defenders of American freedom." They do not tolerate freedom in any meaningful form and demand that everyone be the same person, believe the same things, and live the same way. Many of them want to kill or imprison anyone who doesn't. Instead they seek to impose upon America a totalitarian interpretation of Christianity that is not only intolerant of people's freedom not to practice it, but also seeks to destroy all knowledge and advancement that does not validate its apocalyptic worldview.

They are not "fiscal conservatives" or "wise stewarts of taxpayer money." The vast government debt is a creation of their own right-wing Reagan and Bush administrations. The only president in recent memory who actually was a fiscal conservative was Bill Clinton.

They are not believers in "small government." The government was much bigger under Bush than it was under Clinton, with government budget being $1.8 trillion at the end of the Clinton administration and $2.9 trillion at the end of that of Bush. Since these people want to use American government to impose their ways on American people, what they have to offer is neither small government nor freedom from government but an invasive, totalitarian government that wants to control American people's lives and does not allow them to practice any other way than theirs.

They are not "defenders of free enterprise" or practicioners of "economic freedom." Most of them work for, or live in areas whose economy is based upon, government-subsidized oil industry, government-subsidized agriculture, the trucking industry that uses government-built, government-maintained road system for its work, or the military that is a branch of the government.

They are not "prosperity" or "progress." Prosperity and progress at this time in history means implementing high-intelligence, high-technology, high-job-creation renewable clean energy solutions that will allow people to have everything they have now and much more while vastly reducing the damage to the planet. These people instead want to force reliance on inefficient, outdated, toxic technologies while sabotaging real technological and economic progress.

They are not "what made America great." America's achievements are owed to its science - located in liberal Massachussetts and California; to its technology - based in liberal California, Michigan and Washington State; to its entertainment industry - based in liberal Hollywood; to its business - based in liberal New York; and to its military technology - developed under the liberal Franklin Roosevelt administration.

They are not "American culture." America has many cultures, and they constantly change. The best of these cultures are nowhere near where such people operate, and are constantly under attack from them.

They are not practicioners of "family values." Most of them want the world to end before their children have reached maturity and have supported administrations that busted the budget. They hide behind "family values," while obviously caring nothing about their children, in order to justify and perpetuate wife-beating and child molestation.

They are not "honest hard-working Americans." Honesty is very far from these people, as is known to anyone who traced their political activities or anyone in their communities who tried to get away from sexual abuse and family violence. As for hard work, it is not them but mainly liberal scientists, computer professionals, journalists, doctors, teachers, and technological entrepreneurs that work the longest hours and do the most meaningful work.

They are not "real Americans." Many of them are loyal to Confederate values, and most of them are against the European Enlightenment philosophy on which American Constitution is actually based, along with science and liberal democracy that is behind all of America's achievements.

They are not "peaceful Americans." Not only are they extremely brutal in their own personal dealings, but they also constantly agitate for war.

They are not practicioners of honor or integrity. They are aggressively in denial of scientific fact, spread paranoid fictions like "New World Order" conspiracy theories, ridiculously compare Obama to Hitler or claim his government to be Communist, and ridiculously blame the Democrats for the debt that was accumulated as a result of Reagan policies and liberal influence or "humanity" for the planetary destruction that is the direct result of conservative policies and conservative-fanned denial of scientific fact. In 2008 election they told voters that Obama was a Muslim terrorist; in 2000 election they used lies about McCain to win the Republican primary and then used lies, fraud and corruption to impose on America an unelected regime during the general election. They lie without consequence and practice extreme dishonesty and corruption both in their politics and in their dealings in the communities of which they are a part.

Who are these people then? They are tyrants who want to claim that they are America and that the rest of America isn't and use that claim to oppress the rest of America. They are conmen who appropriate credit for work done by the very kind of people that they want to slaughter and use this work to claim that God or America has accomplished it; for which entities they then appropriate the right to speak, and which claim they then use to bludgeon others into compliance. They are the most dishonest interests in the United States, and their intent is nothing less than imposing real totalitarianism upon United States.

And it is time that more American voters know these people for who and what they are.
http://www.nowpublic.com/world/right-wing-tyrants-and-american-values#ixzz1AAgctb4m

Demogorgon

5th January 2011, 16:48

danyboy27

5th January 2011, 17:41

i would more or less agree with gacky here, the american people have no real fixed values, the american people have a diverse set of values in differents part of the country. Some of those values seem to be more widespread than other.

Diello

5th January 2011, 17:52

Tbh, a lot of people have reactionary views on some things; it doesn't mean they're drooling idiots.

I'm imitating only what I see enveloping me on a daily basis.

RGacky3

5th January 2011, 18:14

The American government and average American citizen are both hypocrites about them, by the way. Sometimes they're used to justify despicable actions

Don't bring the actual American citizen into it unless you have some proof/polls. Because I have tons showing that Americans are largley progressive.

Some of those values seem to be more widespread than other.

Which happen to be single payer healthcare, higher taxes on rich, public controls on banks and corporations, cutting defense and so on.

Che a chara

5th January 2011, 18:51

The story posted is laughably false, she went to the Emergency Room to have life saving treatment and then stopped off to cash a cheque on the way home? She was desperate for treatment but turned it down because the Doctor belonged to a different religion? It reads like parody.

I thought that too but I googled 'dandylion123' and his/her name is referenced as a comment in a KKK forum:

dandylion123
Arizona

This is unbelievable.....We have a Marxist dictator in the White House....a bunch of crooks walking all over our Constitution in Congress....we have basically surrendered to the stinking Islamic terrorists.....pouring our borrowed money into civilizing the uncilizable....the Federal Government is attacking our own States....our borders are not secure and every evil group in the world is pouring into our country.....and we are talking politics as usual. Has this country gone totally mad and why is Fox News seemingly totally unaware of the situation our Nation is in. Wake up you news people.....start reporting the facts and stop playing games with your viewers. Arizona.....a State under siege from our Federal Government and from across our border....not to mention every un-American organization allowed in this country to tear us down. And you are taling like this is politics as usual Wake up people!!!!!!!!!!!! Impeach Obama and vote every last politician out of Congress running in November...

But the first comment does sound like a piss take, but maybe this is the values people like this cretin uphold now. The right has turned to a dangerous direction mostly caused by the fear and lies vomited by Fox 'news'.

6th January 2011, 00:54

Originally Posted by Quarterback
The right has turned to a dangerous direction mostly caused by the fear and lies vomited by Fox 'news'.I don't think the American left is particularly less dangerous; in a lot of ways I think they are more so, because they cloak their bullshit in "progressive" rhetoric, when in reality their actions virtually always serve to defend and perpetuate the same "values" as "the right":

Rabid national chauvinism, religious fanaticism and bigotry, xenophobia, sexism/misogyny, extreme social conservatism, so on and so forth.The difference is really just that one side - the right - is honest about it.

I mean, let's not forget - its the Democrats who have their man in the White House right now.

ComradeMan

6th January 2011, 09:36

This debate is silly. When people put a national adjective in front of "values" then it devalues the term per se.

There is no such thing as "American Values" any more than there is such a thing as "Italian Values"- the word "values" is pretty empty as well given that it is all relative and subjective in terms of ethical and cultural norms.

Quail

6th January 2011, 10:56

ComradeMan

6th January 2011, 11:25

The term "American values," if it's used in the same way as "British values," is really just a meaningless phrase used by right-wingers to scare people into xenophobia. I often hear right wing groups talking about "British values" but if I think about it, they don't really exist. The values argued for tend to be Christianity, national pride (although again, what exactly about this country is there to be especially proud of? Shit weather? Pies? We don't exactly have a lot of interesting cultural stuff, and it's not like you were born in this place by design) and social conservatism. "British values" just seem to be values held by the right, not something specific to this country.

You're very hard and honest on your country- but what I think of as being typically British and positive are individuality and valuing eccentricity, as well as tea with milk :lol:- not things that these rightwingers usually talk about!!! Negatives would be an obsession with class!

In terms of an American value- well, freedom of speech is a positive I suppose.

Italian values? Well- I suppose a healthy lack of respect for rules and regulations could be seen as a value, the importance of the family (really a defense mechanism) but we have to judge these against negative outcomes and values too, such as conformism which is very big in Italy and the whole lack of respect for rules and regulations is not much fun when you drive in this country.

Whether you can actually quantify these scientifically/mathematically is another question though.

Aeval

6th January 2011, 11:31

The values argued for tend to be Christianity, national pride (although again, what exactly about this country is there to be especially proud of? Shit weather? Pies? We don't exactly have a lot of interesting cultural stuff, and it's not like you were born in this place by design) and social conservatism.

A bit unfair that, Britain has lots of interesting cultural things, it's just that every other country has lots as well and the ones that have the most interesting and diverse cultures tend to be those who have experienced mass immigration from a variety of other places. There's loads of really awesome things in Britain that exist purely because all these different groups of people have moved here, experienced the shit weather and pies and then added and adapted things from where they came from (food, music, literature, beer etc)

It's still dumb for an individual to be proud of it, surely you can only be proud of something you've actively done and none of us chose to be born here or can take individual credit for the work of millions of different people, but even reducing Britain to being nothing more than pies and shit weather is a national quirk that people from elsewhere find a bit odd :)

Oh, and I have a question, in the US do the people who harp on about "American Values" tend to embrace the "stuff" (food, drink etc) other people bring to the country - had a guy come in to the shop I work at yesterday whinging about the increase in Polish people in the area and how they can't speak English (which they can) and then he went on to say how awesome it was that we're selling bottles of Tyskie so cheap now when a few years ago you couldn't get it anyway... :D

Quail

6th January 2011, 11:46

ComradeMan

6th January 2011, 11:54

Aeval

6th January 2011, 12:22

Maybe I am a bit harsh on "British" stuff, but most of my favourite food, drinks, music, etc aren't British in origin and the things that are wouldn't exist without immigration, so I don't really see Britain or "Britishness" as being particularly good or worth preserving for the sake of it.

Also, I think my writing style can be quite abrupt, but I'm more used to writing mathematical proofs than essays so you'll have to forgive me.

But that's what I mean, virtually nothing is British in origin (or German in origin, or Italian etc etc). I mean, surely curry is British in that the curry you get in Britain is vastly different to curry you get, say, in India, it's been adapted, and you could say the same for loads of other food. Ditto with music, if people hadn't moved here from Jamaica then half the genres of music I love probably wouldn't exist, but if those people hadn't come to Britain but instead had gone to another country then the music that resulted would have been different too - immigration is part of Britain, it's a good part, and bearing in mind a hell of a lot of this stuff was created by second, third, fourth...Xth generation immigrants it must be British because the people making it are British, otherwise how far back do you go? Ignoring things resulting from immigration the only "British" food would be turnips (we didn't even get potatoes until a few hundred years ago so that's most "traditional British food" out) and meat.

I dunno that I'm explaining myself very well, I'm pretty tired, basically what I'm saying is that we can't ignore all the good things just because some aspect of them originated elsewhere because virtually everything comes from elsewhere, and that's the case for every country in the world. Whenever I meet someone from outside of the UK and they say they've always wanted to visit here my immediate response is to go "why would you want to do that?" and then list a whole load of reasons as to why it's shit here and ignore all the cool things - I had that beaten out of me last year by some German friends so now I'm trying to be a bit more positive :lol: I'll stop hijacking the thread now though!

ComradeMan

6th January 2011, 12:27

But that's what I mean, virtually nothing is British in origin (or German in origin, or Italian etc etc). I mean, surely curry is British in that the curry you get in Britain is vastly different to curry you get, say, in India, it's been adapted, and you could say the same for loads of other food. Ditto with music, if people hadn't moved here from Jamaica then half the genres of music I love probably wouldn't exist, but if those people hadn't come to Britain but instead had gone to another country then the music that resulted would have been different too - immigration is part of Britain, it's a good part, and bearing in mind a hell of a lot of this stuff was created by second, third, fourth...Xth generation immigrants it must be British because the people making it are British, otherwise how far back do you go? Ignoring things resulting from immigration the only "British" food would be turnips (we didn't even get potatoes until a few hundred years ago so that's most "traditional British food" out) and meat.

Champagne was apparently invented by the English! :lol:

I hear what you are saying but I think you are going a bit far saying that nothing is "xyz" in origin.

Aeval

6th January 2011, 12:55

I hear what you are saying but I think you are going a bit far saying that nothing is "xyz" in origin.

I did say virtually nothing :lol:

I meant more that we shouldn't dismiss something as not being X in origin just because some part of it come from elsewhere - to use an obvious example; pasta is Italian, the fact that a variety of different cultures ate something similar to pasta, just made from a different grain, before pasta was first made and that durum wheat was first introduced to Italy in the 7th century by Arabs doesn't change the fact that it's still Italian, but it also wouldn't exist as it does without immigration :)

ComradeMan

6th January 2011, 12:58

I did say virtually nothing :lol:

I meant more that we shouldn't dismiss something as not being X in origin just because some part of it come from elsewhere - to use an obvious example; pasta is Italian, the fact that a variety of different cultures ate something similar to pasta, just made from a different grain, before pasta was first made and that durum wheat was first introduced to Italy in the 7th century by Arabs doesn't change the fact that it's still Italian, but it also wouldn't exist as it does without immigration :)

Lies, lies, vicious lies and Marco Polo was a liar!!! :lol: There is some suggestion he wasn't Italian, but Croatian, and also that he made it all up!!! In fact Marco Polo was denounced as the master of a million lies at the time.

Yeah, that pasta debate can get heated!!! LOL!!!

I think we are moving away from the idea of values though- it's not the same as inventions/discoveries- you could argue that the first hominid who basically picked up a stick and used it as a tool thus invented/discovered everything else.... ;)

But Meucci did invent the telephone, not Bell! I won't move on this one! ;)

Aeval

6th January 2011, 13:29

I think we are moving away from the idea of values though- it's not the same as inventions/discoveries- you could argue that the first hominid who basically picked up a stick and used it as a tool thus invented/discovered everything else.... ;)

Exactly! :lol:

But don't values travel in the same way as physical objects? People move about and thus they are spread and adapted. So going back to American values, well they are just the sum of all the values brought in by people who moved there divided by the circumstances and opportunities unique to the land mass that is America. The actual values of all countries are in a state of constant flux as new people and ideas come in to being and there are new advances in science, technology, etc. People who bang on about "values" tend to just pick a arbitrary year (never the one they are actually in!) and assert that those are the true values, leave it another hundred years and conservatives in America will no doubt be claiming that all sorts of things considered "liberal" today are true American values.